Krixus said:That's fair, but not my point. Do you think there should be an entire game system, one to which they are devoting a lot of time and resources, just for keying? Couldn't something else better be done with that time? Didn't we all hate the bottlenecks to get into Seb/Howling Stones/Veeshan's Peak?
No, I rather enjoyed that kind of keying. I just got pissed when I had to kill raid_mob_001, _002 and _003 in order to enter the 5th zone of a 20+ zone expansion just to do group content.
Krixus said:Um, spiders there did have a pretty nasty cold DOT. Why do we need acclimation to make the zone punish you for not having enough cold resist? Why can't it just be cold resist? Blocking people from reaching game content as an expansive game system seems like a very dangerous idea. We rant here all the time about overpopulation and bottlenecks. Keying was done in rare situations early in EQ, and people either avoided those zones, or had to stand in line at massive a bottleneck. While I agree that arbitrary "you can't enter vex thal" keying hurts from a RP/immersion perspective that this system could help address, I worry that there's a whole game system being designed from stopping people from going places all over the world.
First, because simply being in a harsh environment should be reflected somehow. It's interesting. It's engaging, and it brings a degree of realism that's often lacking.
Second, you're blocked from content in every aspect of an MMO. You're blocked from fighting level 50 mobs when you're level 5. You have to "key" by getting more levels and gear to compete. You're blocked from crafting badass armor when you have your blacksmithing skill at 63. You have to "key" by getting more materials and skill in order to make more powerful items. You're blocked from buying said more powerful gear when you're broke. You have to "key" to get more cash. You're blocked from having that nifty sword because you have to "key" by doing the quest that rewards it. You're blocked from buying/selling/questing from that NPC. You have to "key" to get faction first. The acclimation system is not different than any of these examples, but you're not on a crusade to end them. Hell, you're not even opposed to the "keying" required by needing to obtain resist gear to survive encounters that utilize sphere's of damage like cold.
Feyshtey said:
Second, you're blocked from content in every aspect of an MMO. You're blocked from fighting level 50 mobs when you're level 5. You have to "key" by getting more levels and gear to compete. You're blocked from crafting badass armor when you have your blacksmithing skill at 63. You have to "key" by getting more materials and skill in order to make more powerful items. You're blocked from buying said more powerful gear when you're broke. You have to "key" to get more cash. You're blocked from having that nifty sword because you have to "key" by doing the quest that rewards it. You're blocked from buying/selling/questing from that NPC. You have to "key" to get faction first. The acclimation system is not different than any of these examples, but you're not on a crusade to end them. Hell, you're not even opposed to the "keying" required by needing to obtain resist gear to survive encounters that utilize sphere's of damage like cold.
That's a huge reach. You're equating dozens if not hundreds of hours of progression with needing a single infusion, or key, to unblock the content. I don't think that's fair.
And you're dissociating getting items to survive a climate, from getting items to survive an encounter. They are essentially the same. One you're good with, the other you see as, I don't know, stupid? Difficult? Overly-burdensome?
You also claim that it's innapproriate somehow to gate access to content. Every ounce of content beyond the newbie zone is gated to one degree or another.
If hundreds of hours of progression bothers you we can scale it back. Isnt it gating/keying to require a level 5 player to gain levels to be able to fight level 15mobs? Is it not gating to require players to harvest metals in order to be able to craft anything with blacksmithing, even the most basic items like files or lanterns? Is it not gating to require players to complete a quest of multiple steps to get one reward? You do these things or you do not reap the rewards.
Is it not still gating access to content when you have a level 10 dungeon off a newbie zone on the east coast of a continent and start newbies of a particular race in a different newbie zone on the west coast of the continent, who would have no survivability to run across the continent or afford to pay to use automated travel system?
At it's most basic distilation every single aspect of MMO's is based on gating and keying. It must be or there's no point ranks of skills or spells, tiers of gear, tiers of resources, or in levels themselves.
Feyshtey said:And you're dissociating getting items to survive a climate, from getting items to survive an encounter. They are essentially the same. One you're good with, the other you see as, I don't know, stupid? Difficult? Overly-burdensome?
You also claim that it's innapproriate somehow to gate access to content. Every ounce of content beyond the newbie zone is gated to one degree or another.
If hundreds of hours of progression bothers you we can scale it back. Isnt it gating/keying to require a level 5 player to gain levels to be able to fight level 15mobs? Is it not gating to require players to harvest metals in order to be able to craft anything with blacksmithing, even the most basic items like files or lanterns? Is it not gating to require players to complete a quest of multiple steps to get one reward? You do these things or you do not reap the rewards.
Is it not still gating access to content when you have a level 10 dungeon off a newbie zone on the east coast of a continent and start newbies of a particular race in a different newbie zone on the west coast of the continent, who would have no survivability to run across the continent or afford to pay to use automated travel system?
At it's most basic distilation every single aspect of MMO's is based on gating and keying. It must be or there's no point ranks of skills or spells, tiers of gear, tiers of resources, or in levels themselves.
There's a simple distinction. I can kill a mob with a 6/28 weapon. Is it better if I have an 8/28? Yeah. But that doesn't stop me completely from doing that content. You're equating getting a single "key" to weeks of leveling or equipping your character. That is not an apples to apples comparison. BTW, I ran from Qeynos Hills to Steamfont at level 4 on my monk on the 3rd day of release. Your comparisons are huge reaches. Saying "you can't go in that tunnel because you don't have the wind infusion" is nothing like "you can't go to Castle Mistmoore because you're an hour away in Erudin". You can be: at the location, level appropriate, gear appropriate, but if you don't have that ONE ITEM, the content is locked to you. I don't understand why you think that is in any way similar to a level 5 player not being able to do level 50 content. A systematic gameplay mechanic that prevents people from being able to access content is a very dangerous idea imo, especially in a game that is going to have to deal with multiple kinds of population bottlenecks. If you want to make a special roleplayish keying system for certain zones that have great loot, fine, whatever, but why does there need to be a whole system around it? Why not just make the content difficult enough to punish people who are too low level, or don't have the right group, or don't do enough DPS, or don't have enough poison resistance? If you zone in to some rat sewer lair and they all cast poison rain nukes and you wipe, you need more poison resist gear or some strategy to deal with the casters. But this system is basically saying, nope, you can't even enter the area with out a specific item check. You could otherwise have zero issue doing the content, but it is locked from you because you don't have a single "infusion". I think that stinks.
Acclimation is an interesting idea. We've no idea at this time if it's workable or not. We don't know enough about it. Best to wait until we experience it ourselves and give an honest feed back to the Devs on it. Though I think it's best when considering content, in whichever stage of development we're involved in, that we also consider what's best for the longevity of the game. If acclimation offers a better flavor and adds depth to Pantheon it'll be a good thing. Though if it makes things needlessly time consuming or difficult...i.e. if acclimation turns Pantheon into a full time job takes the fun out of the game, perhaps it can be either adjusted or if needed removed. We also have to keep in mind that the game, within reason, needs to grow. It needs to be sustainable in the sense of attracting and keeping new players. A game that is like a job might not do well in the long term. I know many here want extreme difficulty. I would think twice here because, winning that arguement may very well become a pyrrhic victory. While I perfer Pantheon is nothing like WoW, Pantheon should not IMO be so... draconian in difficulty that it becomes added to the long list of failed games. Notice please, that I did not say Pantheon should not be challenging. I'm simply saying it should 1st and foremost be fun, a place where we can lose ourselves and leave any thoughts of RL behind. I don't know about anyone else here, though for my part, I play these games to experience something fantastical and challenging, in a way that I can forget about work and just have fun.
Risingmist said:Acclimation is an interesting idea. We've no idea at this time if it's workable or not. We don't know enough about it. Best to wait until we experience it ourselves and give an honest feed back to the Devs on it. Though I think it's best when considering content, in whichever stage of development we're involved in, that we also consider what's best for the longevity of the game. If acclimation offers a better flavor and adds depth to Pantheon it'll be a good thing. Though if it makes things needlessly time consuming or difficult...i.e. if acclimation turns Pantheon into a full time job takes the fun out of the game, perhaps it can be either adjusted or if needed removed. We also have to keep in mind that the game, within reason, needs to grow. It needs to be sustainable in the sense of attracting and keeping new players. A game that is like a job might not do well in the long term. I know many here want extreme difficulty. I would think twice here because, winning that arguement may very well become a pyrrhic victory. While I perfer Pantheon is nothing like WoW, Pantheon should not IMO be so... draconian in difficulty that it becomes added to the long list of failed games. Notice please, that I did not say Pantheon should not be challenging. I'm simply saying it should 1st and foremost be fun, a place where we can lose ourselves and leave any thoughts of RL behind. I don't know about anyone else here, though for my part, I play these games to experience something fantastical and challenging, in a way that I can forget about work and just have fun.
Vanguard failed in very large part because they aimed WAY WAY WAY TOO HIGH and fell flat. Things were spread too thin. Instead of having the fundamentals nailed at launch, they were an inch deep and a mile wide on a bunch of different things. Games need a foundation. It is my concern that things like acclimation and the seeker system should be stretch goals, things implemented when the rest of the game is sorted. Things like itemization, class balance, combat and spell casting, zone design, quests, all are way more important than some fancy(debateable) new(debateable) gameplay system to attract people.
Krixus said:There's a simple distinction. I can kill a mob with a 6/28 weapon. Is it better if I have an 8/28? Yeah. But that doesn't stop me completely from doing that content.
If you're a melee class you can't kill a wisp with any weapon unless it's a magical weapon. Your level isnt even a factor ---- Gate
BTW, I ran from Qeynos Hills to Steamfont at level 4 on my monk on the 3rd day of release.
Your comparisons are huge reaches. Saying "you can't go in that tunnel because you don't have the wind infusion" is nothing like "you can't go to Castle Mistmoore because you're an hour away in Erudin".
You can be: at the location, level appropriate, gear appropriate, but if you don't have that ONE ITEM, the content is locked to you.It's not locked to you. You can enter it, you'll just be slowed/take damage/etc. If it's not too harsh maybe other temporary means (the spells to alter climates they've told us about, potions, shield spells, etc.) will allow you to be there and play. In harsher extremes maybe it will be to a point where you can't move forward or can't survive. It's really no different than another kind of gear or levels at this point. You have the gear/levels to survive, or you die. You're just squabling over whether you have to wait for a mob to kick your ass or if the environment itself will.
I don't understand why you think that is in any way similar to a level 5 player not being able to do level 50 content. A systematic gameplay mechanic that prevents people from being able to access content is a very dangerous idea imo, especially in a game that is going to have to deal with multiple kinds of population bottlenecks.I adjusted this argument for your benefit, but the simple fact is that levels themselves ARE a systematic machanic to prevent access. You have the levels (and more often than not the gear, the allies, and the player skills) or you die. Levels are themselves bottlenecks by any objective standard.
If you want to make a special roleplayish keying system for certain zones that have great loot, fine, whatever, but why does there need to be a whole system around it? Why not just make the content difficult enough to punish people who are too low level, or don't have the right group, or don't do enough DPS, or don't have enough poison resistance?
Why not? I'm all for at least giving something new a shot. Otherwise I can just go play one of the hundreds of other games already out that are rehashing all the same tripe. Should we only have resist gear on the roleplay server too? There are myriad encounters in all kinds of games that require the tedious process of aquiring resist gear. What a pain...
If you zone in to some rat sewer lair and they all cast poison rain nukes and you wipe, you need more poison resist gear or some strategy to deal with the casters. But this system is basically saying, nope, you can't even enter the area with out a specific item check. You could otherwise have zero issue doing the content, but it is locked from you because you don't have a single "infusion". I think that stinks.
See now you're just jumping to hyperbole. The T1 climates may well be survivable without any acclimation, you'll just suffer a deficit. Maybe even so for T2 climates. But perhaps being in T1 and T2 suffering the defecit you aquire T1 or T2 acclimation which makes T3 survivable. And I say "maybe" because hell at this point the devs arent even locked in to how it can/will work, let alone making statements that you're "locked out" of anything at all. You've jumped to that conclusion because you need to go to the extremes to attempt to validate your concerns.
Krixus said:Risingmist said:Acclimation is an interesting idea. We've no idea at this time if it's workable or not. We don't know enough about it. Best to wait until we experience it ourselves and give an honest feed back to the Devs on it. Though I think it's best when considering content, in whichever stage of development we're involved in, that we also consider what's best for the longevity of the game. If acclimation offers a better flavor and adds depth to Pantheon it'll be a good thing. Though if it makes things needlessly time consuming or difficult...i.e. if acclimation turns Pantheon into a full time job takes the fun out of the game, perhaps it can be either adjusted or if needed removed. We also have to keep in mind that the game, within reason, needs to grow. It needs to be sustainable in the sense of attracting and keeping new players. A game that is like a job might not do well in the long term. I know many here want extreme difficulty. I would think twice here because, winning that arguement may very well become a pyrrhic victory. While I perfer Pantheon is nothing like WoW, Pantheon should not IMO be so... draconian in difficulty that it becomes added to the long list of failed games. Notice please, that I did not say Pantheon should not be challenging. I'm simply saying it should 1st and foremost be fun, a place where we can lose ourselves and leave any thoughts of RL behind. I don't know about anyone else here, though for my part, I play these games to experience something fantastical and challenging, in a way that I can forget about work and just have fun.
Vanguard failed in very large part because they aimed WAY WAY WAY TOO HIGH and fell flat. Things were spread too thin. Instead of having the fundamentals nailed at launch, they were an inch deep and a mile wide on a bunch of different things. Games need a foundation. It is my concern that things like acclimation and the seeker system should be stretch goals, things implemented when the rest of the game is sorted. Things like itemization, class balance, combat and spell casting, zone design, quests, all are way more important than some fancy(debateable) new(debateable) gameplay system to attract people.
I disagree with your assessment of Vangaurd. It wasnt because the devs aimed too high. It was because the investors/publilshers pushed to launch far too early before the goals of the devs were within site, let alone stable. They wanted the dollar now at the expense of the loyalty from a great game tomorrow. Those of us that did alpha and beta voiced our concerns on the internal forums repeatedly, and those of us who had some inside contacts did privately as well. In rare moments of candor the team acknoweldged that the game wasnt ready but it was out of their hands.
Feyshtey said:Krixus said:There's a simple distinction. I can kill a mob with a 6/28 weapon. Is it better if I have an 8/28? Yeah. But that doesn't stop me completely from doing that content.
If you're a melee class you can't kill a wisp with any weapon unless it's a magical weapon. Your level isnt even a factor ---- Gate
BTW, I ran from Qeynos Hills to Steamfont at level 4 on my monk on the 3rd day of release.
Awesome. Start a level 1 today and run in to and pop Emporer Crush in the nose. I doubt you'll even reach him, but if you do report on how quickly you die. You're only a couple of hours away from being able to do it but its still a ---- GateYour comparisons are huge reaches. Saying "you can't go in that tunnel because you don't have the wind infusion" is nothing like "you can't go to Castle Mistmoore because you're an hour away in Erudin".
Well, you can't go into Mistmoore at level 1 and survive past the zone in, if that. --- Gate. You can't attack any mob in Mistmoore when you're at appropriate level naked and survive --- Gate. You can't be in proximity of Nagafen at an appropriate level if he's agro if you havent spent many hours/days/weeks collecting fire resist gear ---- Gate.
You can be: at the location, level appropriate, gear appropriate, but if you don't have that ONE ITEM, the content is locked to you.It's not locked to you. You can enter it, you'll just be slowed/take damage/etc. If it's not too harsh maybe other temporary means (the spells to alter climates they've told us about, potions, shield spells, etc.) will allow you to be there and play. In harsher extremes maybe it will be to a point where you can't move forward or can't survive. It's really no different than another kind of gear or levels at this point. You have the gear/levels to survive, or you die. You're just squabling over whether you have to wait for a mob to kick your ass or if the environment itself will.
I don't understand why you think that is in any way similar to a level 5 player not being able to do level 50 content. A systematic gameplay mechanic that prevents people from being able to access content is a very dangerous idea imo, especially in a game that is going to have to deal with multiple kinds of population bottlenecks.I adjusted this argument for your benefit, but the simple fact is that levels themselves ARE a systematic machanic to prevent access. You have the levels (and more often than not the gear, the allies, and the player skills) or you die. Levels are themselves bottlenecks by any objective standard.
If you want to make a special roleplayish keying system for certain zones that have great loot, fine, whatever, but why does there need to be a whole system around it? Why not just make the content difficult enough to punish people who are too low level, or don't have the right group, or don't do enough DPS, or don't have enough poison resistance?Why not? I'm all for at least giving something new a shot. Otherwise I can just go play one of the hundreds of other games already out that are rehashing all the same tripe. Should we only have resist gear on the roleplay server too? There are myriad encounters in all kinds of games that require the tedious process of aquiring resist gear. What a pain...
If you zone in to some rat sewer lair and they all cast poison rain nukes and you wipe, you need more poison resist gear or some strategy to deal with the casters. But this system is basically saying, nope, you can't even enter the area with out a specific item check. You could otherwise have zero issue doing the content, but it is locked from you because you don't have a single "infusion". I think that stinks.
See now you're just jumping to hyperbole. The T1 climates may well be survivable without any acclimation, you'll just suffer a deficit. Maybe even so for T2 climates. But perhaps being in T1 and T2 suffering the defecit you aquire T1 or T2 acclimation which makes T3 survivable. And I say "maybe" because hell at this point the devs arent even locked in to how it can/will work, let alone making statements that you're "locked out" of anything at all. You've jumped to that conclusion because you need to go to the extremes to attempt to validate your concerns.
I think your point is extremely weak. Cherry picking that you couldn't melee a wisp without a magic weapon and equating that to not being able to enter a zone? Seriously? Suggesting that the need to travel from one place to another is a gate? Really? You may as well say that the need to have been born, to hold a job to have income to afford the game and a computer, and have it installed, and create an account, are "gates".
It's a really very simple point: When you are perfectly capable of doing the content, yet are not allowed to because of a built in gameplay mechanic, that is extremely dangerous with the potential to negatively impact the game, as I have detailed. KEYING should not be a game system. It should be an exception, not the norm, and if it is the exception, why does it necessitate an entire game system/mechanic? You continue to refuse to answer my questions. Why do you need the acclimation system to have the fire giant zone require you to have fire resistance? You may be required to travel through lava, or even fight there You may face numerous mobs with fire shields and fire nukes. That is an organic type of system that you can overcome by increasing a resistance. Why make up some new "infusion" thing? Make the content punish you if you aren't ready for it. And if there are some "too windy to enter" zones, and that's the key, fine, whatever, but don't spend all this time and all these resources on this system when the whole rest of the game needs work.
We can agree to disagree. I'm glad you care about the game.
The whole concept of progression is based around gates. Even in real life. Go ahead and apply for jobs without the prerequisites.
I think people may be misunderstanding the scope and purpose of something like the climate system. We've seen an example of a bridge that was more of a hard and fast gate. Meaning it was a very specific and limited space requiring what appeared to be a very specific prerequisite. But that isn't the reality of the system.
Now consider that there will be entire areas similar to that one bridge where if you don't have the [magical protection] to survive, you will die or at best, become a liability. It's not like you can't try. For all we know, there may even be a way to get around the strict requirement to enter an area. Maybe you equip your best regen gear, get the best regen buffs, and chug a potion while only utilizing 2 pieces of cold climate gear. So you make it across the bridge, but surprise: what comes on the other side is a similar environment to that bridge. So even if you get across, good luck finding people to keep you alive while you freeze your ass off.
It isn't just a locked door, a bridge, or a gate. It's part of the greater reality that is the world of Terminus. Like levels, like items, like abilities, and knowledge which empowered us in the past, add surviving harsh magical environments to that list of "gates" in Pantheon.
Dullahan said:The whole concept of progression is based around gates. Even in real life. Go ahead and apply for jobs without the prerequisites.
I think people may be misunderstanding the scope and purpose of something like the climate system. We've seen an example of a bridge that was more of a hard and fast gate. Meaning it was a very specific and limited space requiring what appeared to be a very specific prerequisite. But that isn't the reality of the system.
Now consider that there will be entire areas similar to that one bridge where if you don't have the [magical protection] to survive, you will die or at best, become a liability. It's not like you can't try. For all we know, there may even be a way to get around the strict requirement to enter an area. Maybe you equip your best regen gear, get the best regen buffs, and chug a potion while only utilizing 2 pieces of cold climate gear. So you make it across the bridge, but surprise: what comes on the other side is a similar environment to that bridge. So even if you get across, good luck finding people to keep you alive while you freeze your ass off.
It isn't just a locked door, a bridge, or a gate. It's part of the greater reality that is the world of Terminus. Like levels, like items, like abilities, and knowledge which empowered us in the past, add surviving harsh magical environments to that list of "gates" in Pantheon.
That's great, it really is. Why do you need both acclimation and resists? Why double dip with some new system?
Krixus said:Feyshtey said:Krixus said:There's a simple distinction. I can kill a mob with a 6/28 weapon. Is it better if I have an 8/28? Yeah. But that doesn't stop me completely from doing that content.
If you're a melee class you can't kill a wisp with any weapon unless it's a magical weapon. Your level isnt even a factor ---- Gate
BTW, I ran from Qeynos Hills to Steamfont at level 4 on my monk on the 3rd day of release.
Awesome. Start a level 1 today and run in to and pop Emporer Crush in the nose. I doubt you'll even reach him, but if you do report on how quickly you die. You're only a couple of hours away from being able to do it but its still a ---- GateYour comparisons are huge reaches. Saying "you can't go in that tunnel because you don't have the wind infusion" is nothing like "you can't go to Castle Mistmoore because you're an hour away in Erudin".
Well, you can't go into Mistmoore at level 1 and survive past the zone in, if that. --- Gate. You can't attack any mob in Mistmoore when you're at appropriate level naked and survive --- Gate. You can't be in proximity of Nagafen at an appropriate level if he's agro if you havent spent many hours/days/weeks collecting fire resist gear ---- Gate.
You can be: at the location, level appropriate, gear appropriate, but if you don't have that ONE ITEM, the content is locked to you.It's not locked to you. You can enter it, you'll just be slowed/take damage/etc. If it's not too harsh maybe other temporary means (the spells to alter climates they've told us about, potions, shield spells, etc.) will allow you to be there and play. In harsher extremes maybe it will be to a point where you can't move forward or can't survive. It's really no different than another kind of gear or levels at this point. You have the gear/levels to survive, or you die. You're just squabling over whether you have to wait for a mob to kick your ass or if the environment itself will.
I don't understand why you think that is in any way similar to a level 5 player not being able to do level 50 content. A systematic gameplay mechanic that prevents people from being able to access content is a very dangerous idea imo, especially in a game that is going to have to deal with multiple kinds of population bottlenecks.I adjusted this argument for your benefit, but the simple fact is that levels themselves ARE a systematic machanic to prevent access. You have the levels (and more often than not the gear, the allies, and the player skills) or you die. Levels are themselves bottlenecks by any objective standard.
If you want to make a special roleplayish keying system for certain zones that have great loot, fine, whatever, but why does there need to be a whole system around it? Why not just make the content difficult enough to punish people who are too low level, or don't have the right group, or don't do enough DPS, or don't have enough poison resistance?Why not? I'm all for at least giving something new a shot. Otherwise I can just go play one of the hundreds of other games already out that are rehashing all the same tripe. Should we only have resist gear on the roleplay server too? There are myriad encounters in all kinds of games that require the tedious process of aquiring resist gear. What a pain...
If you zone in to some rat sewer lair and they all cast poison rain nukes and you wipe, you need more poison resist gear or some strategy to deal with the casters. But this system is basically saying, nope, you can't even enter the area with out a specific item check. You could otherwise have zero issue doing the content, but it is locked from you because you don't have a single "infusion". I think that stinks.
See now you're just jumping to hyperbole. The T1 climates may well be survivable without any acclimation, you'll just suffer a deficit. Maybe even so for T2 climates. But perhaps being in T1 and T2 suffering the defecit you aquire T1 or T2 acclimation which makes T3 survivable. And I say "maybe" because hell at this point the devs arent even locked in to how it can/will work, let alone making statements that you're "locked out" of anything at all. You've jumped to that conclusion because you need to go to the extremes to attempt to validate your concerns.
I think your point is extremely weak. Cherry picking that you couldn't melee a wisp without a magic weapon and equating that to not being able to enter a zone? Seriously? Suggesting that the need to travel from one place to another is a gate? Really? You may as well say that the need to have been born, to hold a job to have income to afford the game and a computer, and have it installed, and create an account, are "gates".
It's a really very simple point: When you are perfectly capable of doing the content, yet are not allowed to because of a built in gameplay mechanic, that is extremely dangerous with the potential to negatively impact the game, as I have detailed. KEYING should not be a game system. It should be an exception, not the norm, and if it is the exception, why does it necessitate an entire game system/mechanic? You continue to refuse to answer my questions. Why do you need the acclimation system to have the fire giant zone require you to have fire resistance? You may be required to travel through lava, or even fight there You may face numerous mobs with fire shields and fire nukes. That is an organic type of system that you can overcome by increasing a resistance. Why make up some new "infusion" thing? Make the content punish you if you aren't ready for it. And if there are some "too windy to enter" zones, and that's the key, fine, whatever, but don't spend all this time and all these resources on this system when the whole rest of the game needs work.
We can agree to disagree. I'm glad you care about the game.
I'm sorry, but I feel your point is the one that's weak. I will be the first to admit that I wasn't a fan of the first iteration/implementation of infusions, but I'm all for the concept of climates/acclimation. However, you are strictly trying to deal in absolutes here, basically saying there is a big brick wall up with a sign that reads if you don't have infusion X, "You shall NOT pass". While this may be true in some of the high end extreme climates, it would seem that would be the exception, not the norm. The norm seems to be that you will indeed be able to go into these areas with less than perfect acclimation skill or infusion XYZ, but you will have some sort of negative status effect associated with that until your skill gets higher. I'm not understanding your stance that you are fine with content punishing you if you're not ready, but not ok with this "system", when in fact the design philosophy of said system is making sure you're prepared for that climate.
There was nothing preventing Cohh from trying to cross that bridge in the stream, but with zero acclimation, he was going to get punished and most likely die before he reached the other side. As Feystey and others have pointed out, if that was a level 50 mob on the bridge instead of wind/cold and you were only level 30, you're ok with not being able to get across the bridge with that type of gating?? In this case, the wind/cold is your level 50 mob. Keying like for Seb, HS, etc was you couldn't enter the zone at all without the key. This system is most of the time saying, "Yes you can enter, but if you don't have the proper gear/skill/infusion, you may suffer some detriment". The two concepts are fundamentally different, yet you try and lump them together to fit your stance. Nothing in RL is stopping you from attempting to climb Mount Everest, but I'd guess you wouldn't do so without being properly prepared beforehand. Same concept in game.
This concept is a breath of fresh air for the genre and has a chance to become something really immersive if done right. If you don't like the system, that's fine, to each their own. Just don't sit here shooting everything down by making contradictory statements. Personally, I hope it evolves into something more involved than just injecting an infustion and I'm hopeful after reading/hearing Joppa's comments on the subject.
Krixus said:Dullahan said:The whole concept of progression is based around gates. Even in real life. Go ahead and apply for jobs without the prerequisites.
I think people may be misunderstanding the scope and purpose of something like the climate system. We've seen an example of a bridge that was more of a hard and fast gate. Meaning it was a very specific and limited space requiring what appeared to be a very specific prerequisite. But that isn't the reality of the system.
Now consider that there will be entire areas similar to that one bridge where if you don't have the [magical protection] to survive, you will die or at best, become a liability. It's not like you can't try. For all we know, there may even be a way to get around the strict requirement to enter an area. Maybe you equip your best regen gear, get the best regen buffs, and chug a potion while only utilizing 2 pieces of cold climate gear. So you make it across the bridge, but surprise: what comes on the other side is a similar environment to that bridge. So even if you get across, good luck finding people to keep you alive while you freeze your ass off.
It isn't just a locked door, a bridge, or a gate. It's part of the greater reality that is the world of Terminus. Like levels, like items, like abilities, and knowledge which empowered us in the past, add surviving harsh magical environments to that list of "gates" in Pantheon.
That's great, it really is. Why do you need both acclimation and resists? Why double dip with some new system?
Why do we need to acquire both items and abilities? Can't items be enough to provide players with the necessary tools to overcome content? For that matter, couldn't we just simplify it and make levels the metric that determines character strength? Or maybe just dispense with all of those and go with a strictly skill and knowledge based system. Or hey, do away with knowledge and just make it who can aim their mouse the fastest and most accurately.
It's called progression. It's kind of a cornerstone of roleplaying games.
Please keep in mind that you have only seen a tiny snippet of our Acclimation and Climate systems, so before spiralling down into a chain of opinion and assumption based arguments, please try to manage your expectations and thoughts about this system until you are able to jump in and actually test it for yourself in its full form while in conjunction with all of the other systems, mechanics and features that it works with.
The acclimation system as presented has a ton of potential. We have only seen a sample of the vision and have already heard about plans for meaningful updates with it in the future. Acclimation is but one of many forms of progression and will present it's own unique set of challenges for us to overcome in Terminus. As others have mentioned, acclimation provides a more immersive approach toward resists. It hasn't replaced them, it has innovated them. New layers of progression are something we should look forward to, and I hope to see many other systems just like this one and then play in a world that merges them all together. It's really a beautiful vision and I can't wait to see how all of these new layers of progression stack with each other. I would love to eventually see content that combines elements of acclimation, perception, progeny, situational gear, colored mana, the living codex, etc. These are all pieces of "The Pantheon Difference" and at the end of the day they resemble the evolution of MMO's as we know it.
I think this system is very intriguing, and I am ooking forward to dealing with the weather. I can't say this is a fact, but is VR the only company that has taken this leap with an acclimation system like this? If so I'd be willing to bet other companies will be paying close attention to the mechanics of this system. From my perspective this is a fresh new idea, but one that has me baffled that it wasn't already implemented in previous MMO's. Its not like we don't or haven't had the capabilities to add this kind of feature to a game.
Needless to say I am certainly looking forward to this.
Mandalorian2K said:Krixus said:Feyshtey said:Krixus said:There's a simple distinction. I can kill a mob with a 6/28 weapon. Is it better if I have an 8/28? Yeah. But that doesn't stop me completely from doing that content.
If you're a melee class you can't kill a wisp with any weapon unless it's a magical weapon. Your level isnt even a factor ---- Gate
BTW, I ran from Qeynos Hills to Steamfont at level 4 on my monk on the 3rd day of release.
Awesome. Start a level 1 today and run in to and pop Emporer Crush in the nose. I doubt you'll even reach him, but if you do report on how quickly you die. You're only a couple of hours away from being able to do it but its still a ---- GateYour comparisons are huge reaches. Saying "you can't go in that tunnel because you don't have the wind infusion" is nothing like "you can't go to Castle Mistmoore because you're an hour away in Erudin".
Well, you can't go into Mistmoore at level 1 and survive past the zone in, if that. --- Gate. You can't attack any mob in Mistmoore when you're at appropriate level naked and survive --- Gate. You can't be in proximity of Nagafen at an appropriate level if he's agro if you havent spent many hours/days/weeks collecting fire resist gear ---- Gate.
You can be: at the location, level appropriate, gear appropriate, but if you don't have that ONE ITEM, the content is locked to you.It's not locked to you. You can enter it, you'll just be slowed/take damage/etc. If it's not too harsh maybe other temporary means (the spells to alter climates they've told us about, potions, shield spells, etc.) will allow you to be there and play. In harsher extremes maybe it will be to a point where you can't move forward or can't survive. It's really no different than another kind of gear or levels at this point. You have the gear/levels to survive, or you die. You're just squabling over whether you have to wait for a mob to kick your ass or if the environment itself will.
I don't understand why you think that is in any way similar to a level 5 player not being able to do level 50 content. A systematic gameplay mechanic that prevents people from being able to access content is a very dangerous idea imo, especially in a game that is going to have to deal with multiple kinds of population bottlenecks.I adjusted this argument for your benefit, but the simple fact is that levels themselves ARE a systematic machanic to prevent access. You have the levels (and more often than not the gear, the allies, and the player skills) or you die. Levels are themselves bottlenecks by any objective standard.
If you want to make a special roleplayish keying system for certain zones that have great loot, fine, whatever, but why does there need to be a whole system around it? Why not just make the content difficult enough to punish people who are too low level, or don't have the right group, or don't do enough DPS, or don't have enough poison resistance?Why not? I'm all for at least giving something new a shot. Otherwise I can just go play one of the hundreds of other games already out that are rehashing all the same tripe. Should we only have resist gear on the roleplay server too? There are myriad encounters in all kinds of games that require the tedious process of aquiring resist gear. What a pain...
If you zone in to some rat sewer lair and they all cast poison rain nukes and you wipe, you need more poison resist gear or some strategy to deal with the casters. But this system is basically saying, nope, you can't even enter the area with out a specific item check. You could otherwise have zero issue doing the content, but it is locked from you because you don't have a single "infusion". I think that stinks.
See now you're just jumping to hyperbole. The T1 climates may well be survivable without any acclimation, you'll just suffer a deficit. Maybe even so for T2 climates. But perhaps being in T1 and T2 suffering the defecit you aquire T1 or T2 acclimation which makes T3 survivable. And I say "maybe" because hell at this point the devs arent even locked in to how it can/will work, let alone making statements that you're "locked out" of anything at all. You've jumped to that conclusion because you need to go to the extremes to attempt to validate your concerns.
I think your point is extremely weak. Cherry picking that you couldn't melee a wisp without a magic weapon and equating that to not being able to enter a zone? Seriously? Suggesting that the need to travel from one place to another is a gate? Really? You may as well say that the need to have been born, to hold a job to have income to afford the game and a computer, and have it installed, and create an account, are "gates".
It's a really very simple point: When you are perfectly capable of doing the content, yet are not allowed to because of a built in gameplay mechanic, that is extremely dangerous with the potential to negatively impact the game, as I have detailed. KEYING should not be a game system. It should be an exception, not the norm, and if it is the exception, why does it necessitate an entire game system/mechanic? You continue to refuse to answer my questions. Why do you need the acclimation system to have the fire giant zone require you to have fire resistance? You may be required to travel through lava, or even fight there You may face numerous mobs with fire shields and fire nukes. That is an organic type of system that you can overcome by increasing a resistance. Why make up some new "infusion" thing? Make the content punish you if you aren't ready for it. And if there are some "too windy to enter" zones, and that's the key, fine, whatever, but don't spend all this time and all these resources on this system when the whole rest of the game needs work.
We can agree to disagree. I'm glad you care about the game.
I'm sorry, but I feel your point is the one that's weak. I will be the first to admit that I wasn't a fan of the first iteration/implementation of infusions, but I'm all for the concept of climates/acclimation. However, you are strictly trying to deal in absolutes here, basically saying there is a big brick wall up with a sign that reads if you don't have infusion X, "You shall NOT pass". While this may be true in some of the high end extreme climates, it would seem that would be the exception, not the norm. The norm seems to be that you will indeed be able to go into these areas with less than perfect acclimation skill or infusion XYZ, but you will have some sort of negative status effect associated with that until your skill gets higher. I'm not understanding your stance that you are fine with content punishing you if you're not ready, but not ok with this "system", when in fact the design philosophy of said system is making sure you're prepared for that climate.
There was nothing preventing Cohh from trying to cross that bridge in the stream, but with zero acclimation, he was going to get punished and most likely die before he reached the other side. As Feystey and others have pointed out, if that was a level 50 mob on the bridge instead of wind/cold and you were only level 30, you're ok with not being able to get across the bridge with that type of gating?? In this case, the wind/cold is your level 50 mob. Keying like for Seb, HS, etc was you couldn't enter the zone at all without the key. This system is most of the time saying, "Yes you can enter, but if you don't have the proper gear/skill/infusion, you may suffer some detriment". The two concepts are fundamentally different, yet you try and lump them together to fit your stance. Nothing in RL is stopping you from attempting to climb Mount Everest, but I'd guess you wouldn't do so without being properly prepared beforehand. Same concept in game.
This concept is a breath of fresh air for the genre and has a chance to become something really immersive if done right. If you don't like the system, that's fine, to each their own. Just don't sit here shooting everything down by making contradictory statements. Personally, I hope it evolves into something more involved than just injecting an infustion and I'm hopeful after reading/hearing Joppa's comments on the subject.
Again, if there's level 50 content on the other side and you're level 30, why are you even trying to go there? Again, this is a failure to address what I keep repeating. If you could otherwise do the content, the acclimation system seems redundant and dangerous. You already need the level, you already need the gear, you already need the group, now you also need this other thing? And why do you say that this would seem to be the exception? The ONLY example we have is of a 100% blocker.
[Blockquote]krixus said:
Again, if there's level 50 content on the other side and you're level 30, why are you even trying to go there? Again, this is a failure to address what I keep repeating. If you could otherwise do the content, the acclimation system seems redundant and dangerous. You already need the level, you already need the gear, you already need the group, now you also need this other thing? And why do you say that this would seem to be the exception? The ONLY example we have is of a 100% blocker.
You have yourself given multiple examples of how you might not be able to do the content regardless of your level. I've given more. Resists, armor, weapons, spells ranks, faction, allies, ... the list goes on. If you its valid to ask why you would even try to go there at level 30 (because it would be stupid), why is any less valid to ask why would try to go there lacking any of these other prerequisites (gates). Acclamation is different in no meaningful way.
And we have another example that exists today in 100s of games : water. Youre slowed, and you can drown. You have a given amount of time to resurface or overcome the environment or you start taking damage until you die.
Hell we have another example in pantheon from the 1st or 2nd sream, where being within proximity of a small area effect caused both a snare and a damage over time. It killed multiple people multiple times, but they were able to play thru it without using acclimation.
Krixus said:Again, if there's level 50 content on the other side and you're level 30, why are you even trying to go there? Again, this is a failure to address what I keep repeating. If you could otherwise do the content, the acclimation system seems redundant and dangerous. You already need the level, you already need the gear, you already need the group, now you also need this other thing? And why do you say that this would seem to be the exception? The ONLY example we have is of a 100% blocker.
Do you not see the fallacy in your arguement? You are asking why if there's level 50 content and you're level 30 are you even trying to go there? Well if it's a tier 5 frigid climate and you only have tier 2 acclimation, why are you even trying to go there? It literally makes zero sense why you are ok with one, but not the other. You are treating "content" as solely the fighting of npcs. In Pantheon, ALL of these systems are part of what makes up the "content" as a whole. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.
Mandalorian2K said:Do you not see the fallacy in your arguement? You are asking why if there's level 50 content and you're level 30 are you even trying to go there? Well if it's a tier 5 frigid climate and you only have tier 2 acclimation, why are you even trying to go there? It literally makes zero sense why you are ok with one, but not the other. You are treating "content" as solely the fighting of npcs. In Pantheon, ALL of these systems are part of what makes up the "content" as a whole. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.
He's saying he'd rather the level difference be what naturally prevents players from adventuring in a zone instead of finding a single item. They're not equal preventative factors - one allows anyone to enter a zone and face the consequences, and the other prevents anyone from entering who hasn't already proven in some way that they can handle it (if the only way to become acclimated is to be a somewhat appropriate power level for the zone). The fact that we need to have a single item in order to enter a zone is what's frustrating, rather than the organic difficulty of the zone preventing someone from surviving. If I understand correctly, Krixus thinks it'd be better for a level 1 to be able to run madly through into a level 50 zone and die instantly, and having THAT be the reason why they can't be there, instead of not being able to zone there because of not being able to possess a key. I think it's a very valid opinion, and worth discussing.
I tried to say earlier that one way we can understand this acclimation system is by imagining these zones having different qualities in "the very air" players breathe - a zone with high temperature will literally burn instantly anyone who enters who isn't acclimated. Maybe in the game we'll be able to zone into some of these places (those that aren't blocked by some barrier, like the wind tunnel) and instantly combust or die because we weren't able to survive in the environment - in which case, our corpse would have to be moved outside the zone (unless the devs wanted to be extra evil to people who dare spurn the climate warnings).
Of course, we don't know enough about how this system will feel to players. That's what Kilsin repeatedly reminds us. But we know as much as we've seen, and these forums are for giving development feedback, yea? We should definitely always keep in mind, however, that we're commenting from an incomplete perspective.
Edit: Reserving the right to not know some big part of the acclimation system that totally invalidates my understanding.
Alexander said:Mandalorian2K said:Do you not see the fallacy in your arguement? You are asking why if there's level 50 content and you're level 30 are you even trying to go there? Well if it's a tier 5 frigid climate and you only have tier 2 acclimation, why are you even trying to go there? It literally makes zero sense why you are ok with one, but not the other. You are treating "content" as solely the fighting of npcs. In Pantheon, ALL of these systems are part of what makes up the "content" as a whole. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.
He's saying he'd rather the level difference be what naturally prevents players from adventuring in a zone instead of finding a single item. They're not equal preventative factors - one allows anyone to enter a zone and face the consequences, and the other prevents anyone from entering who hasn't already proven in some way that they can handle it (if the only way to become acclimated is to be a somewhat appropriate power level for the zone). The fact that we need to have a single item in order to enter a zone is what's frustrating, rather than the organic difficulty of the zone preventing someone from surviving. If I understand correctly, Krixus thinks it'd be better for a level 1 to be able to run madly through into a level 50 zone and die instantly, and having THAT be the reason why they can't be there, instead of not being able to zone there because of not being able to possess a key. I think it's a very valid opinion, and worth discussing.
....
And the bolded portions are what's so annoying about his arguments.
1) There's exactly zero basis for an assertion that there's one item. None. Zippo. Zilch. There is in fact a fair amount of discussion about there being multiple ... sockets(?) for a given character that can be filled with multiple tiers of items. There was even a post from the developer creating this system that responded to the idea that it be nothing like an item at all and instead a skill aquirred thru exposure, and he liked that and said he'd like to explore it more.
2) There's absolutely zero basis for a suggestion that this system would create a hard-wall block to zones, and mostly not even to portions of zones. It is instead portrayed so far as, "Sure you can go there, but you'll die."