Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Opinion on Acclimation System

    • 20 posts
    April 28, 2017 4:41 PM PDT

    I wouldn't mind having it partially gear-based. Maybe I'm a weirdo but I actually like needing to carry around multiple sets of gear for different circumstances. I do not like playing inventory tetris, however. I'd be perfectly fine with accumulating multiple sets of resist gear as long as there is a reasonable way to carry and equip easily, like a wardrobe or something that is seperate from normal inventory.

    • 40 posts
    April 28, 2017 4:46 PM PDT

    torveld said:

    Makes me wonder what percentage of content will not be gated behind acclimation tiers. 6 different climates, 5 tiers each. I feel like this is their version of "keying" to some degree. Content seems literally not accessible unless you are acclimated to the area. I feel like this is going to be a huge problem when trying to form groups with random players.

    I also feel like it a bit of a downer when it comes to exploring, it seems unlikely to be able to explore anything of unique interest that isn't hidden behind a tier 3 pressure wall or whatever else may be the case.

     

    I was worried about your first point, myself.  If the climates are simply used as gating for content, then that's pretty weak.  However, it's not much different than not being to explore anything of unique interest that's hidden behind a locked door requiring a rare drop key quest component, and has all the same downsides.  I don't really have a problem with that as long as there are multiple ways to acquire said infusions, or some way around every member of a party not having sufficient acclimation (or is it acclimatization) to advance. 

    As long as there are other implementations of the climates besides physical gating or progression gating of access to a region, such as creating challenging encounters by adding a climate around a dungeon boss/raid target that is higher than the players' current infusion level - but ways to pull it out of that climate for parts of the fight, then I'm okay with it.  If it's simply a mechanic for gating content, I'd be a bit disappointed at lost potential for coolness.

     

    • 2886 posts
    April 28, 2017 4:59 PM PDT

    snappa said:

    torveld said:

    Makes me wonder what percentage of content will not be gated behind acclimation tiers. 6 different climates, 5 tiers each. I feel like this is their version of "keying" to some degree. Content seems literally not accessible unless you are acclimated to the area. I feel like this is going to be a huge problem when trying to form groups with random players.

    I also feel like it a bit of a downer when it comes to exploring, it seems unlikely to be able to explore anything of unique interest that isn't hidden behind a tier 3 pressure wall or whatever else may be the case.

     

    I was worried about your first point, myself.  If the climates are simply used as gating for content, then that's pretty weak.  However, it's not much different than not being to explore anything of unique interest that's hidden behind a locked door requiring a rare drop key quest component, and has all the same downsides.  I don't really have a problem with that as long as there are multiple ways to acquire said infusions, or some way around every member of a party not having sufficient acclimation (or is it acclimatization) to advance. 

    As long as there are other implementations of the climates besides physical gating or progression gating of access to a region, such as creating challenging encounters by adding a climate around a dungeon boss/raid target that is higher than the players' current infusion level - but ways to pull it out of that climate for parts of the fight, then I'm okay with it.  If it's simply a mechanic for gating content, I'd be a bit disappointed at lost potential for coolness.

     

    I would not consider the lower tiers of climates to be gating. You could feasibly hang out in those climates without any acclimation. There may be some minor inconveniences or disadvantages (movement or weapon speed decrease), but technically still possible. The example in the stream was pretty extreme. But even still, since climates will probably be something you encounter regularly, so will infusions. There will indeed be multiple ways to acquire infusions - especially at lower tiers.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 28, 2017 4:59 PM PDT
    • 384 posts
    April 28, 2017 5:38 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Malsirian said:

    A problem I see with making a stat that improves over time, when time is spent in a particular environment, is that you'll just have people going afk in an specific area to increase their skill.

    It's trivial to design around that particular player behavior.  Simple example?  Acclimation only applies while actively engaged in combat and/or based on activities while in combat, or performing your role in a particular environment.  Designing around "Going AFK in an environment" is not even a speedbump/hiccup.

    Oh I realize there are ways to prevent people from going afk to skill up.  That was my point.  I remember seeing people in EQ afk and swimming to get their swimming skill up. I'm all for anything that helps avoid that. Or encourages people to bot. But I am pretty confident VR will do all they can to prevent that at the least.  

    Overall I'm intrigued by the climate system and looking forward to its implementation.  The more challenges to overcome the better. 

    • 208 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:02 PM PDT

    Thank you for the response Joppa!  I feel I should state that I am greatly impressed with the climate acclimation idea/concept but I thought it needed more refining to get into a more important role/system in the game.  I am a strong supporter of the belief that choices and being properly prepared matter greatly and since it matters greatly it should take up valuable space.

     

     The one comment I noted in the stream replay I watched was about how the acclimations were permanent and a character would be able to click the one that they needed.  I don't like that idea.  I would rather have the tier/strength/power of the acclimation cover a larger area of the body.  For instance a tier 1 covers the core organ areas of the chest and head, tier 2 takes the coverage area out to the arms and legs, tier 3 takes it to the full body basically.  That way the first tier would allow a person to tolerate the environment but not function at full capacity per say.  In essence in a cold environment you would not freeze but you would have less strength would get tired faster and your limbs and such would feel the full effects and you would have to find a place to rest/recover for a while after being exposed because of the numbness and frostbite to the limbs.

     

     I do not like the idea of the acclimations being like a keyring or pouch wihtout taking up inventory space.   If you are able to get above the basic tier of acclimation then that should take up an inventory space because that is a VERY important item to a player.   This style of acclimation would allow for multiple acclimations like was described in the stream.. If you need freezing acclimation as well as pressure/anaerobic you would need a tier 1 for the windshear/pressure/anaerobic but a tier 2 for the freezing because of it affecting the limbs more than the windshear.  This kind of stacking if you will would allow the master crafter to create a truly powerful acclimation item for 2 or 3 or even all of the climates in Terminus but the more powerful/multiple climates the item is the more difficult it is to make/gather ingredients/find. 

     

    I am curious to know what y'all think of these ideas I am putting forth?  I will admit I have not read all of the posts but I don't think I saw something like what I am describing being discussed.  If I am wrong I apologize.

     

     

    • 264 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:25 PM PDT

    I Also like the idea of gaining natural acclimation the more time you spend in a Climate. It would require you to actually walk or be active fighting or harvesting in an extreme zone that is not too harsh for your current acclimation. Or maybe a zone a bit too harsh but with a potion that is crafted you could extend your time a little bit while gaining acclimation skill.

    It would foster exploration to areas to harden your body to the climate. Like going to Nepal and staying there a while to acclimate to the low oxygen at high altitude before climbing Mount Everest.

    You would level Acclimation separate from other skills. A level 20 person may have explored so many areas and spent so much time in the field that they are maxed out and able to withstand climates that their race would not normally be accustomed to.

    I would imagine that a Harvester would be very acclimated to the enviroment, and able to get some things that a crafter could not get to safely because the crafter is always working on their craft.

    I prefer a hardening of the body to a climate instead of drinking or shooting up some infusion.  I think lugging around tons of special Equipment would be tedious and a bit Un-Fun. A few things would be okay.

    I think a Monk would start out with a few extra skill points in all of the climates just due to the regimen of a Monk. A Druid would be able to cast a personal shield that would help a little bit against everything but Anerobic / Lack of oxygen. Maybe a Ranger would be a few points to the good on Cold and Heat.

    It is a cool idea but I prefer a more Organic approach.

    Just my 2 cents :) 

     


    This post was edited by Skycaster at April 28, 2017 6:28 PM PDT
    • 1281 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:35 PM PDT

    It's still so early in devleopment I can't really be critical becuase I'm sure it will change a lot.

    I like that they are making weather/atmosphere/climate something that impacts your character.

    I think I would prefer if it was was gear based rather than the infusing system and having a seperate UI. Not fond of that.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at April 28, 2017 6:36 PM PDT
    • 157 posts
    April 29, 2017 1:14 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    It's still so early in devleopment I can't really be critical becuase I'm sure it will change a lot.

    I like that they are making weather/atmosphere/climate something that impacts your character.

    I think I would prefer if it was was gear based rather than the infusing system and having a seperate UI. Not fond of that.

     

    I feel the opposite. I have never been a fan of needing multiple sets of gear for multiple situations, and with 6 different climates? Are you kidding me?.. I thought it was cumbersome in WoW to have 2-3 sets for the different specs I'd use. 

    Besides, the infusions they showed were just an example of one way of acclimitizing. It won't be the only way - they even said as much when they mentioned crafters, raiding, questing would be involved to unlock different tiers. Maybe there will be enchants or gear effects unlocking tiers in the UI - we just don't know yet. Don't take the one example they showed as the one and only way this is going to be implemented :)

    • 1468 posts
    April 29, 2017 1:59 AM PDT

    Lokispawn said:

    bigdogchris said:

    It's still so early in devleopment I can't really be critical becuase I'm sure it will change a lot.

    I like that they are making weather/atmosphere/climate something that impacts your character.

    I think I would prefer if it was was gear based rather than the infusing system and having a seperate UI. Not fond of that.

    I feel the opposite. I have never been a fan of needing multiple sets of gear for multiple situations, and with 6 different climates? Are you kidding me?.. I thought it was cumbersome in WoW to have 2-3 sets for the different specs I'd use. 

    Besides, the infusions they showed were just an example of one way of acclimitizing. It won't be the only way - they even said as much when they mentioned crafters, raiding, questing would be involved to unlock different tiers. Maybe there will be enchants or gear effects unlocking tiers in the UI - we just don't know yet. Don't take the one example they showed as the one and only way this is going to be implemented :)

    The only reason I haven't been a fan of multiple gear sets was because of bag space. In EQ I hardly had enough room to carry around normal stuff let alone another set of gear. If they have sufficiently large bags (that are expensive and hopefully crafted) that should remove that particular problem for me.


    This post was edited by Cromulent at April 29, 2017 2:00 AM PDT
    • 61 posts
    April 29, 2017 2:03 AM PDT

    I liked what was displayed in the video. I have to say i am not a fan however of the idea that once you have this consumable that you are set for life in that given tier. To me a consummable (Like hero sandwhich in EQ) is a consumable that decay over time. Maybe it is the fact that the items are currently called Infusions (yes i am aware the name is possibly changing) but it is the fact that an infusion to me sounds like a consumable.

     

    Semantics i know, maybe you can still have consumables who give you a period of protection like an hour, 3 or 6 etc. As well as items that are for permanent.

    I mean, if it is consumables, you just created a reason for people to learn the craft of making potions therefore helping the economy and giving a sense of usefulness beyond let's say making sow potions and unlife etc...

     

    It's also a money sink for players etc

     

    Either way i dont think it is game breaking for me at all lol Just the idea of an "infusion" leads to a temporary benefit. 

     

    Here Kiddo. Have a hot toddy!

     

    • 160 posts
    April 29, 2017 3:39 AM PDT

    I thought what I saw in the stream was great.

    My thoughts:

    I would love to see an acclimation system where the acclimation comes from many sources.

    A percentage could be from over-time exposure.  This would be long-lasting, but semi-permanent; i.e. it would need to be maintained once in a while.  If you were born in Alaska, but then spent 10 years in Brazil, when you went home to Alaska, your old buddies would be snickering at you shivering.

    Another percentage could be from gear bonuses.  Temporary and self-explanatory.

    Of course, certain races and classes could have intrinsic bonuses.

    Spell buffs (and bard song! YAY) could add to this.

    Any of these sources might be enough to negate the effects of a Tier 1 environment, with combinations of them able to handle additional lower Tiers.

    For high Tiers, potions (temporary) and infusions (permanent) would be mandatory for any reasonable expectation of survival.

    I am in favor of temporary potions for just the case when you really want to play with someone, but it's a one-time deal.  Potions would be an expensive, inefficient alternative.

    Of course it seems like keying!  But rather than calling this lazy, think of keying as the lazy out!  This at least attempts to "explain" why someone isn't ready for an area or zone yet, rather than just "oh, you didn't kill mob X, so you can't go here".

    • 902 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:10 AM PDT

    senadin: I have to say i am not a fan however of the idea that once you have this consumable that you are set for life in that given tier. To me a consummable (Like hero sandwhich in EQ) is a consumable that decay over time. Maybe it is the fact that the items are currently called Infusions (yes i am aware the name is possibly changing) but it is the fact that an infusion to me sounds like a consumable.

    I would like to expand on this a bit.

    I love the idea of climates having an impact and ways of negating those effects. I agree that the current system seems a bit, mm, odd; to have a once consumed potion (sorry, infusion) that gives you immunity to the specific climate tier seems a bit half-hearted.

    I would like to see a more natural implementation; consumables, yes, but limited period/effect. I would also like to see equipment and natural acclamation, the longer you spend in a climate, the less extreme the effect of the climate. But also, the longer you are out of a climate, you start losing that natural acclimation. I understand that extra gear carrying and changing is not fun, but I don’t see why you couldn’t have a climate chest that could carry a complete outfit as a freebee. That way you could plan visits high peaks via a trek across a desert without too much hassle, but you still need to think about where you are going and what you are taking.

    I do like the idea of protecting different body parts individually too.

    All in all, I am in favour, but I would like to see a more involved implementation.

     


    This post was edited by chenzeme at April 29, 2017 5:11 AM PDT
    • 26 posts
    April 29, 2017 7:21 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    Mandalorian2K said:

    Feyshtey said:

    Mandalorian2K said:

    It wouldn't have to be just a "simple" skill though. When you first start out the game, you only have your starting acclimation skill based on race/class. You still need to consider your environment when adventuring. You will take damage and/or be affected by whatever the debuffs for that climate are until you start building your skill. You may need to wear resist gear and/or get a buff to help diminish the effects even in tier 1. As you build your acclimation "skill" for that tier, maybe you need less gear w/resists, infusion pots, or buffs until you get max skill for tier 1. Then when you want to progress to a tier 2 climate, you then again have to consider your environment. The only time it would possibly become trivial is at the high end if/when all your acclimation skills were maxed. However, the devs could still create climates/encounters that were beyond that skill cap, that still required the player to consider their surroundings. 

    There is a way to intertwine skill, gear and pots/infusions here. I think the system is a great idea and this is an opportunity to add a further layer of depth, while still avoiding it being overly tedious.

    Ok, I'll concede that "simple" was not the best choice of wording.

    In response to your ideas though, if I consistantly wear a parka, snowboots and mittens in 40 degree weather I'll never feel comfortable in 40degree weather wearing a tshirt. Conversely if I consistently where a sweatshirt only during 40degree weather, I will eventually acclimate to the point that a tshirt is often sufficient. I know this first hand, working with horses on a daily basis in all kinds of ridiculous weather in Colorado :) 

    Simply being there with gear sufficient to make the climate a non-factor should not contribute to your acclimation of that climate. Aside from it making little sense, it also makes acquisition of acclimation skill notably more trivial. 

    I don't want to turn this into a back and forth, but I feel you are misunderstanding my post. I'm not saying you will always wear a parka, snowboots and mittens in 40 degree weather. You might need to wear some of those until you start to get used to the climate. Then maybe you take off your parka and snowboots and just wear your mittens because your hands are still cold. Eventually, you wont wear any of it in 40 degree weather and can wear just a t-shirt because you'll be "acclimated" to 40 degree weather via your skill. However, when you then decide to travel somewhere with 20 degree weather, you may want to put your parka and mittens back on because you aren't used to that. I was pointing out that gear/infusions would be used to supplement your skill until you built it up, then they wouldnt be needed again until you traveled somewhere more intense in the next tier. I'm not sure how that doesn't make sense to you, I thought it was fairly straightforward. It also doesn't trivialize the skill at all. That resist gear could be at the expense of stats such as str, sta, etc. So you are making a choice to wear some resist gear to diminish the negative effects of the climate at the expense of other important stats until your acclimation is built up, then you can equip your other more powerful gear.

     

    So it's just a time sync? You gear check/key for long enough and then you're "acclimated". I'm failing to see how that's good gameplay. If they want to use this system as a replacement for keying, I'm actually fine with that, but we should call it like it is. It makes sense that you'd need cold resistance, or an infusion, to climb to the frost temple at the top of cold bone mountain. Or you need your cloak of cooling to enter the magma dragon lair. We've seen mechanics like that in games since there have been games. But again, if that's the case can we just call it like it is? 

    I for one do not like these kinds of dynamics being forced on players. Let us learn the zones and encounters and adjust our strategies. If someone goes to the frost temple and all the wizard mobs there nuke with cold, and your group didn't bring cold resist, you're gonna have a bad time. But don't make it so you can't even go there until you pass some check, unless it's a special case where we're basically "keying up". 

    I don't understand why the current acclimation system is getting so much push back. Any content in the game other than the first noob areas require some kind of "sink" to do. A level 10 zone requires you to "sink" time into xping in order to raise your character level enough to kill level 10 mobs. Crafting anything other than metal ingots requires you to "sink" time into practicing blacksmithing. Being able to hit mobs with your shiny new 2H sword requires you to "sink" time into missing mobs 10 levels lower than you to learn how to use it.

    Being able to kill any enemy, especially any named, higher than maybe level 10-20 surely requires you to obtain some gear beyond your starting Dagger*. Therefore that enemy has a built in gear check. The harder enemies get, the more gear is required to defeat them. The whole game is a gear check.

    The whole concept of MMOs, especially this one, is "time=profit." The more time you spend doing anything, the more you are rewarded.

    Beez said: I love the idea of having different armor sets with acclimation stats example there could be different types of platmail one for cold weather one for hot weather one for more toxic areas and so on

    This seems cool at first thought, but was actually something I hated about raiding in vanilla WoW, for example. Molten Core was cool when it first came out, until you needed fire resist in every slot to go farther in. I played a rogue, and having to gimp my damage to have the minimum about of fire resist to survive was no fun to me. What made it worse, in my opinion, was the fact that the super awesome loot from Molten Core (at least from what I remember) didn't have fire resist, or shadow (which is what you needed for the next raid). So...I'm acquiring all this cool raid gear to use where? Not in the next raid dungeon because it didn't have shadow resist. And I know that just because I don't like how WoW implemented something doesn't mean I won't like how Pantheon implements it, and that's why I'm reserving any hyper emotional responses to anything until I can actually see it in alfa/beta.

    Joppa said:

    Just popping in to say thanks for the great discussion going on here.

    The Extreme Climate & Acclimation systems are still being conceptualized with much yet to be implemented. But for the stream, I wanted to get a visual demonstration set up to show the very foundation of both systems.

    I like the idea of gaining natural acclimation the more time you spend in a Climate - I want to explore that more.

    I also want to emphasize that these infusions (name is subject to change, btw) will be very difficult to come by. As I said in the stream, the most basic ones, which would provide enough Acclimation for a player to survive unhampered in a Tier 1 climate, would be easier to come by and more accesible for players on the whole. The higher tier infusions (Tier 2-5) will be extremely difficult to obtain (through raiding, epic quests) and will likely be non-tradeable.

    As far as the role gear will play, it is very likely that resistances from gear will contribute to your Acclimation score. In other words, if my gear has a high amount of Cold resistance, it is likely that some percentage of that overall resistance will contribute to your Frigid Acclimation score while you are wearing those items. Some classes will have abilities that will either improve your Acclimation score for certain Climates, or alter the Climates themselves to make them more accessible.

    Keep up the great discussion - we'll be rolling out more details on these systems when they are ready!

    This is why I am so encouraged by Joppa's reply. It sounds like we will be able to pick and choose where we sacrifice to meet the environment requirements we face. Maybe I only have one infusion for cold, but we have a druid that can cast a cold resist buff, and I have my cold acclimation skill up, so I only need to use 1 or 2 pieces of cold resist gear instead of a whole set of it.

    Also, I still feel like people that are saying this is too easy and trivial due to the permanent nature of infusions are not really paying attention to what Joppa is saying. They will be rare. If higher level ones are only obtainable by raids, EPIC quests, and Master Crafters, I don't see anyone running around in a full set of infusions any time soon. You have to realize, when these guys say "epic quest," they mean epic quest, if they are going to be anything like EQ epics. Which means most people won't be able to do them in the current expansion, I know I didn't get my epic in EQ until PoP iirc.

    And on the question of "realism?" of infusions that a few people have raised, I would just point at any gear that raises stats. If it doesn't make sense to have a magical item that can magically affect your body to be resistant to cold, why does it make sense to equip a magic breastplate for example that increases your strength? If we look at it from a logical standpoint, the opposite would be true. If you put on a set of plate armor, your remaining available strength for wielding a weapon would go down, as you are using a lot of strength to support all that weight. So, this argument to me shouldn't really apply to a fantasy game.

    card said:

    I'm almost cetain that specific races will have resistances to different climates. I agree potions and other consumables are a pain to grind for but on the other hand, it does give meaning to some crafting professions which is what VR is aiming for IMO.

    I'm almost certain that you are correct :P I remember reading something a while back (probably 6 months or a year ago) from one of the devs saying something to the effect of some races having a better or worse time in some climates than others. I think the example given was a Dark Myr would be better off than other races in water obviously, but may have some kind of penalty in a desert region (scorching).

    Sorry for the super long post, I usually just lurk in the forums during work and I don't have a lot of time to reply throughout the day to individual posts, so you get a combo reply :)

     


    This post was edited by Teglayen at April 29, 2017 7:23 AM PDT
    • 1618 posts
    April 29, 2017 8:20 AM PDT

    Sogotp said:

    The one comment I noted in the stream replay I watched was about how the acclimations were permanent and a character would be able to click the one that they needed.  I don't like that idea.  I would rather have the tier/strength/power of the acclimation cover a larger area of the body.  For instance a tier 1 covers the core organ areas of the chest and head, tier 2 takes the coverage area out to the arms and legs, tier 3 takes it to the full body basically.  That way the first tier would allow a person to tolerate the environment but not function at full capacity per say.  In essence in a cold environment you would not freeze but you would have less strength would get tired faster and your limbs and such would feel the full effects and you would have to find a place to rest/recover for a while after being exposed because of the numbness and frostbite to the limbs. 

    I do not think most MMO's have a complex enough damage system to allow for damage to only certain limbs. Damage is damage. If you get slowed, you get slowed, not just your arms or legs.

    I do not like the idea of the acclimations being like a keyring or pouch wihtout taking up inventory space.   If you are able to get above the basic tier of acclimation then that should take up an inventory space because that is a VERY important item to a player.   This style of acclimation would allow for multiple acclimations like was described in the stream.. If you need freezing acclimation as well as pressure/anaerobic you would need a tier 1 for the windshear/pressure/anaerobic but a tier 2 for the freezing because of it affecting the limbs more than the windshear.  This kind of stacking if you will would allow the master crafter to create a truly powerful acclimation item for 2 or 3 or even all of the climates in Terminus but the more powerful/multiple climates the item is the more difficult it is to make/gather ingredients/find. 

    It does take up inventory space, your acclimation inventory space. You only have room for a certain number of unique options. The current system allows for you to choose multiple mixes of options, between the various types of environments. You only have so many slots to put infusions in.

    • 3852 posts
    April 29, 2017 8:55 AM PDT

    The one point I am certain of is that we will see many changes in pre-alpha, alpha and beta. That is rather the point of testing, after all.

    The more a system is different and innovative the more it is likely to change. The more removed it is from the core concepts underlying the game the more it is likely to change. Details of this system are not critical to Pantheon being a group-focused, slow paced challenging MMO although clearly these objectives contributed and will contribute to how the system is designed.

    So those that don't like it - keep up hope. Those that do like it - good but don't invest too much emotional capital in the precise details lest you suffer disappointment.

    • 1778 posts
    April 29, 2017 10:29 AM PDT

    corpserunner said:

    I thought what I saw in the stream was great.

    My thoughts:

    I would love to see an acclimation system where the acclimation comes from many sources.

    A percentage could be from over-time exposure.  This would be long-lasting, but semi-permanent; i.e. it would need to be maintained once in a while.  If you were born in Alaska, but then spent 10 years in Brazil, when you went home to Alaska, your old buddies would be snickering at you shivering.

    Another percentage could be from gear bonuses.  Temporary and self-explanatory.

    Of course, certain races and classes could have intrinsic bonuses.

    Spell buffs (and bard song! YAY) could add to this.

    Any of these sources might be enough to negate the effects of a Tier 1 environment, with combinations of them able to handle additional lower Tiers.

    For high Tiers, potions (temporary) and infusions (permanent) would be mandatory for any reasonable expectation of survival.

    I am in favor of temporary potions for just the case when you really want to play with someone, but it's a one-time deal.  Potions would be an expensive, inefficient alternative.

    Of course it seems like keying!  But rather than calling this lazy, think of keying as the lazy out!  This at least attempts to "explain" why someone isn't ready for an area or zone yet, rather than just "oh, you didn't kill mob X, so you can't go here".

     

    Great post! 100% agree!

    • 338 posts
    April 29, 2017 11:52 AM PDT

    Been thinking about this subject a bit and one thing I would like to see is quite a few soft checks for acclimation.

     

    What I mean by this is for instance, the lower you go into and icy dungeon the colder it gets. Not just some hard cut off where it does a check and you either can go past or not.

     

    This creates a lot of risk / reward situations where you may brave a slightly colder part of the dungeon because you have a boss on track or something.

     

    Now I do think there is a place for these hard cut offs too but more subtle and gradual effects of these climates would be awesome imo.

     

     

    Thanks in advance,

    Kiz~

    • 2752 posts
    April 29, 2017 2:35 PM PDT

    Teglayen said:

    Beez said: I love the idea of having different armor sets with acclimation stats example there could be different types of platmail one for cold weather one for hot weather one for more toxic areas and so on

    This seems cool at first thought, but was actually something I hated about raiding in vanilla WoW, for example. Molten Core was cool when it first came out, until you needed fire resist in every slot to go farther in. I played a rogue, and having to gimp my damage to have the minimum about of fire resist to survive was no fun to me. What made it worse, in my opinion, was the fact that the super awesome loot from Molten Core (at least from what I remember) didn't have fire resist, or shadow (which is what you needed for the next raid). So...I'm acquiring all this cool raid gear to use where? Not in the next raid dungeon because it didn't have shadow resist. And I know that just because I don't like how WoW implemented something doesn't mean I won't like how Pantheon implements it, and that's why I'm reserving any hyper emotional responses to anything until I can actually see it in alfa/beta.

    This is why I am so encouraged by Joppa's reply. It sounds like we will be able to pick and choose where we sacrifice to meet the environment requirements we face. Maybe I only have one infusion for cold, but we have a druid that can cast a cold resist buff, and I have my cold acclimation skill up, so I only need to use 1 or 2 pieces of cold resist gear instead of a whole set of it.

    Also, I still feel like people that are saying this is too easy and trivial due to the permanent nature of infusions are not really paying attention to what Joppa is saying. They will be rare. If higher level ones are only obtainable by raids, EPIC quests, and Master Crafters, I don't see anyone running around in a full set of infusions any time soon. You have to realize, when these guys say "epic quest," they mean epic quest, if they are going to be anything like EQ epics. Which means most people won't be able to do them in the current expansion, I know I didn't get my epic in EQ until PoP iirc.

    And on the question of "realism?" of infusions that a few people have raised, I would just point at any gear that raises stats. If it doesn't make sense to have a magical item that can magically affect your body to be resistant to cold, why does it make sense to equip a magic breastplate for example that increases your strength? If we look at it from a logical standpoint, the opposite would be true. If you put on a set of plate armor, your remaining available strength for wielding a weapon would go down, as you are using a lot of strength to support all that weight. So, this argument to me shouldn't really apply to a fantasy game.

     

    Thank you! Why does everyone want this to be as tedious as possible? An infusion makes just as much sense as any piece of armor having the same effect. Having to lug extra sets of armor around isn't fun or engaging. It takes up the limited inventory space, creates far more travel, and adds encumberance...where is the fun there? Did everyone forget the encumberance, limited bag slots, and vendor runs in EQ? Nothing wrong with an infusion. Change the name to ward and people might not think it's some potion or something. 

    • 1778 posts
    April 29, 2017 2:51 PM PDT

    @Iksar

    Lugging around extra sets of armor was fun and satisfying and addictive from my game of choice (XI).

    That touches on a different issue. But if it came down to it from me personally?

    Ditch encumburance in favor of more complex and elaborate gear scheme. Gotta catch them all! type theme. Or at least be more generous with space/weight limitations and let us summon mules with gear on them. Things of this nature. Because I dont find that fun or engauging to have to worry about.

    But whatever direction VR goes with I can be flexable.

    • 432 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:01 PM PDT

    I was also disappointed with what I saw .

    Horrible blizzard able to kill you in minutes ? You need just 2 clicks and will never have to worry about blizzards in your life ! Sounds like a (bad) ad, doesn't it .

    One click on a bottle icon . One click on a body part . Et voilà, you are forever protected against blizzards ! Even if the bottle is a result of a quest or a rare drop, to forever eliminate the whole climate influence concept which was supposed to play such a big part in Pantheon's differentiation in just 2 clicks ? It can't be that trivial can it ? I hope that we saw only a pre alpha pre concept place holder ...

    Otherwise I won't repeat what other said before me but just add that I really like and support the idea of over time acclimatation . An acclimatation is an ability, a skill . It gets better when you train it but can get worse when you don't train it anymore . Bottles can help it, accelerate it, make it stronger but can't make you fully acclimated forever by merely drinking (?) some potion/infusion.

    • 208 posts
    April 29, 2017 5:37 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    The one point I am certain of is that we will see many changes in pre-alpha, alpha and beta. That is rather the point of testing, after all.

    The more a system is different and innovative the more it is likely to change. The more removed it is from the core concepts underlying the game the more it is likely to change. Details of this system are not critical to Pantheon being a group-focused, slow paced challenging MMO although clearly these objectives contributed and will contribute to how the system is designed.

    So those that don't like it - keep up hope. Those that do like it - good but don't invest too much emotional capital in the precise details lest you suffer disappointment.

     

    So true Dorotea..  I know that things will change drastically before beta let alone release but I also think it is important to get various points of view on topics of discussion early before the specific point/system is too far along to make drastic changes.  I am estatic that climate will finally matter in a game besides just needed breath/movement items.  It always perturbed me in EQ1 with the Grey which was a VACCUUM like space where no sound occured but yet the players were still able to cast spells which required a verbal component.. *hand meet forehead*  This acclimation system is a huge step forward and is really breaking/forging new ground besides jsut geting keyed/flagged/geared for it..  Can't wait to see the next version of it :)  BTW folks, thanks for all the discussion and the differing points of view.  I think this occuring will truly make this game so much better!! *applaoud and bows in appreciation*

    • 9115 posts
    April 29, 2017 7:11 PM PDT

    Folks, please keep in mind what you are seeing is a very early implementation of our systems, they are by no means final nor have you seen the entire system, at least not enough to base an opinion or judgement on, when you get into testing, we will welcome feedback on first-hand experiences in-game.

    • 160 posts
    April 29, 2017 7:39 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Folks, please keep in mind what you are seeing is a very early implementation of our systems, they are by no means final nor have you seen the entire system, at least not enough to base an opinion or judgement on, when you get into testing, we will welcome feedback on first-hand experiences in-game.

     

    Kilsin, I think some here are missing something I thought was hinted at during the stream.  What they are seeing as "over simple", I am seeing as the devs wanting to display the full range from unprotected to totally protected, all in one fell swoop...as proof of concept.  So yeah, it's going to take much more thought and effort to achieve what the stream showed than 30 seconds of clicking inventory buttons.

     

    • 1714 posts
    April 29, 2017 7:52 PM PDT

    Deadshade said:

    I was also disappointed with what I saw .

    Horrible blizzard able to kill you in minutes ? You need just 2 clicks and will never have to worry about blizzards in your life ! Sounds like a (bad) ad, doesn't it .

    One click on a bottle icon . One click on a body part . Et voilà, you are forever protected against blizzards ! Even if the bottle is a result of a quest or a rare drop, to forever eliminate the whole climate influence concept which was supposed to play such a big part in Pantheon's differentiation in just 2 clicks ? It can't be that trivial can it ? I hope that we saw only a pre alpha pre concept place holder ...

    Otherwise I won't repeat what other said before me but just add that I really like and support the idea of over time acclimatation . An acclimatation is an ability, a skill . It gets better when you train it but can get worse when you don't train it anymore . Bottles can help it, accelerate it, make it stronger but can't make you fully acclimated forever by merely drinking (?) some potion/infusion.

     

    This is exactly why we're complaining that it's nothing more than a keying system, which is fine, but don't advertise it as some super kewl new gameplay mechanic. I'm sure it'll get fleshed out a bit, but right now this feels like a swing and a miss and I wish they were spending time on other things. I think strategically the public release of this, and perception, were misplays. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at April 29, 2017 7:53 PM PDT
    • 187 posts
    April 29, 2017 8:37 PM PDT

    The atmosphere/acclimation systems are quickly becoming my favorite novelty these devs are creating. I think this early introduction gave us a tiny keyhole's view of what is to come. I see bounds of potential here. 

    Krixus, in the process of developing anything there are multiple phases of prototyping and testing, where most prototypes eventually barely resemble the final product. They have to start somewhere. Try not to take for granted the dev's team transparency here. If you are uncomfortable with seeing nascent mechanics in the development phase, I'd suggest just ignoring Pantheon until it's finished.