Zorus said:
That article is more about Virtual Reality (VR) and links to Gamergate which was founded on some pretty big lies and hyperbole, it isn't really relevant to Pantheon.
..small disclaimer I have only read last 3 pages of posts..but this is my opinion on what I've read thus far....
1. No player like or dislike buttons that determines anything....this is mainly because people will abuse this for personal gain even if it's a small one, and most people will be offended by something at some point.
2. Since the zones are not seamless at this point, there should be a global chat, and player options should be the following if they dislike something someone says
A. Ignore that person
B. Report that person.
C. Argue your point in a polite manner.
3. Since the first xx levels of the game will be free, that is,where most of the trolls and abusive language will be, people not wanting to hear it should turn off the lower level chat channel until VR decides how long they are going to leave it free.
4. I think this is how the moderation should work....
A. Person a offends person b....and keeps harassing them until reported by person b (in my opinion if person b...let's it gets this far before ignoring it's their own fault) first offense warning
B. Second offense 2 hours chat ban...
C. 3rd offense 1 day chat ban....
D. 4th offense 1 day game ban...
E...5th offense 3 day ban
F. 6th offense 1 week ban...
G. 7th offense permanent ban.
5. If a person offends several people and they report them at the same time...Instant..1 hour chat time out...if it happens again..see above
I really don't see the issue here. Ignore those people and its like they never existed.
Honestly, it is the internet. This will happen. Grow up, learn to be thick skinned, and move on. Why do you need anyone to nurse maid you? Moderate your own game.
I am not PC. I don't give a damn about your feelings. While I don't condone heckling someone over having cancer or anything of the like, I also don't condone censorship in ANY form. The reason being, "Who gets to choose what is acceptable or not?" Something I believe to be perfectly fine to say may offend someone else's poor delicate ears. Who is to say what should and shouldn't be punished. Of course this means we have to take the bad with the good, but i'd much rather have to /ignore someone than being held up to someone else's slanted sense of morality.
Kids, grow up. Stoping this in game is easy, ignore them. Done. They will no longer bother you.
Megaera: up to 7 offenses?
Na, 3 strikes as far as I am concerned.
kellindil: I really don't see the issue here. Ignore those people and its like they never existed.
Its for those that /ignore isnt enough and there are always game mechanics/situations that make /ignore not enough.
kellindil: Honestly, it is the internet. This will happen. Grow up, learn to be thick skinned, and move on.
I think the people making the problem are the ones that should grow up. I wouldn't put up with it in RL. I dont see why we should in a game. Its not good enough to say "It is the internet".
But as Kilsin pointed out in an earlier post, this is going around in circles. The official stance is that it should be handled (where possible) by the community. I just think they also need the caveat that where the community cannot handle a situation, that a ban is the next step. Its a game. Treat it as such and treat people with respect, then there is no problem. Dont, then get banned. Simples!
(p.s. we are not talking about disagreements or finger flicker (as it were) we are talking sustained aggression/abuse/misery making.)
Oh I agree that those making immature remarks about something like someone being diagnosed with cancer do indeed need to grow up. But you seem to be under the impression that you can do something about it, either in game or in real life. If someone walks up to you and says something stupid like this, what are you going to do? If you get violent you go to jail. There is no law against being distasteful or tactless. All you can do is walk away.
Now if that guy follows you around all day, follows you home, does anything of the like.... that’s harassment. That is an entirely different thing all together.
If the fool in game follows you around doing something to impede your progress and hinder you and you have no real way to stop him other than logging out... that’s harassment. Ban his ass. No warnings, no second chance. Perma-Ban.
But that idiot can sit there all day until he is blue in the face being dumb, and as long as you use ignore no one will even hear him. eventually everyone will ignore him and that will be that.
The fact of the matter is, You do have to put up with it. Just because you do not agree with someone or something someone says is rude, doesn't give you the right to take action against them. That is a fine line you walk. I say again, "What gives you, or anyone, the RIGHT to say what is or isn't acceptable to say in public?"
I do not believe anyone should be punished for something they say when they can be ignored and that’s that. Any harassment is entirely something else.
As Megaera said, don't bring real life into chat if you have such delicate sensibilities. It’s not the place for it.
Edited for Words...
OMG someone was mean to me in a video game its the end of the world.
Or /ignore logout for a few minutes and move on to a different area. he odds of someone tracking across huge zones is rare. Not to mention everyone talks about immersion. Gues what trolls and keyboard warriors are part of immersion.
Tralyan said:Let's tackle this from another angle. Forums. Specifically these forums.
I'm willing to bet we can all agree that if somebody came on these forums and proceeds to use racial slurs or engage in some kind of harrassment, Kilsin would be quick to drop the hammer in some way or another. I think we can also agree that this would be a perfectly reasonable action to take. Why should that consideration not also be brought into the game we're here to discuss?
I agree 100 percent. I have never reported anyone in a game and rarely had to put anyone on ignore but if someone is way out of line they should be slapped down.
If we want bring up immersion, punishment in society is very real and people getting punished for their BS is very immersive.
kellindil said:Oh I agree that those making immature remarks about something like someone being diagnosed with cancer do indeed need to grow up. But you seem to be under the impression that you can do something about it, either in game or in real life. If someone walks up to you and says something stupid like this, what are you going to do? If you get violent you go to jail. There is no law against being distasteful or tactless. All you can do is walk away.
Now if that guy follows you around all day, follows you home, does anything of the like.... that’s harassment. That is an entirely different thing all together.
If the fool in game follows you around doing something to impede your progress and hinder you and you have no real way to stop him other than logging out... that’s harassment. Ban his ass. No warnings, no second chance. Perma-Ban.
But that idiot can sit there all day until he is blue in the face being dumb, and as long as you use ignore no one will even hear him. eventually everyone will ignore him and that will be that.
The fact of the matter is, You do have to put up with it. Just because you do not agree with someone or something someone says is rude, doesn't give you the right to take action against them. That is a fine line you walk. I say again, "What gives you, or anyone, the RIGHT to say what is or isn't acceptable to say in public?"
I do not believe anyone should be punished for something they say when they can be ignored and that’s that. Any harassment is entirely something else.
As Megaera said, don't bring real life into chat if you have such delicate sensibilities. It’s not the place for it.
Edited for Words...
I agree 100%, Don't throw personal stuff like that out there, it's not the place for it if you going to tell something like that let it be your Real Life Friends, or someone you came to know through the game you've known for quite sometime and don't feel awkward telling him, general chat is there for public decussions, like is "Anyone Selling A Certain Potion, or is a Alchemist on so i can buy the Regeants for them to make it." It suppose to be used for in-game situations, not something that is Life Changing is your life.
Riahuf22 said:kellindil said:Oh I agree that those making immature remarks about something like someone being diagnosed with cancer do indeed need to grow up. But you seem to be under the impression that you can do something about it, either in game or in real life. If someone walks up to you and says something stupid like this, what are you going to do? If you get violent you go to jail. There is no law against being distasteful or tactless. All you can do is walk away.
Now if that guy follows you around all day, follows you home, does anything of the like.... that’s harassment. That is an entirely different thing all together.
If the fool in game follows you around doing something to impede your progress and hinder you and you have no real way to stop him other than logging out... that’s harassment. Ban his ass. No warnings, no second chance. Perma-Ban.
But that idiot can sit there all day until he is blue in the face being dumb, and as long as you use ignore no one will even hear him. eventually everyone will ignore him and that will be that.
The fact of the matter is, You do have to put up with it. Just because you do not agree with someone or something someone says is rude, doesn't give you the right to take action against them. That is a fine line you walk. I say again, "What gives you, or anyone, the RIGHT to say what is or isn't acceptable to say in public?"
I do not believe anyone should be punished for something they say when they can be ignored and that’s that. Any harassment is entirely something else.
As Megaera said, don't bring real life into chat if you have such delicate sensibilities. It’s not the place for it.
Edited for Words...
I agree 100%, Don't throw personal stuff like that out there, it's not the place for it if you going to tell something like that let it be your Real Life Friends, or someone you came to know through the game you've known for quite sometime and don't feel awkward telling him, general chat is there for public decussions, like is "Anyone Selling A Certain Potion, or is a Alchemist on so i can buy the Regeants for them to make it." It suppose to be used for in-game situations, not something that is Life Changing is your life.
I'm not disagreeing with you but where is this written? This is your (and my) interpretation of what General is for but not all see it that way. How do we force this belief on others? are you suggesting that everyone in the conversation in EQ about three days ago all talking about who was taking the stronger anti-anxiety meds (no kidding, that was really the topic in General between no less than 3 people) they should all be banned? GM should step in and put a stop to it?
So the point I'm trying to express is, you agree with your opnion, so likely your not going to do it. I agree with your opinion, so I'm not going to do it. But in the mean time ignore or not, General chat is toxic and useless for "Anyone Selling A Certain Potion, or is a Alchemist on so i can buy the Regeants for them to make it." as nobody is paying attention to it due to it being bogus annoying content.
See, thats the thing. General is for ANYTHING. In-game, Real Life, other... its general. What comes with that general chat is the fact that EVERYONE has the right to engage in a conversation you air out in general chat. Even that complete idiot that wants nothing more than to make you angry and start a fight. I really wish that people weren't so immature and idiotic, but thats the world we live in.
If you bring something that may be a sensitive topic for you to general, don't complain when someone intrudes and starts slinging crap. If you don't want that to happen, take it to tells or guild chat or (if the option exists) make a chat channel called "Cancer Survivors" (example from OP) and invite those you are conversing with to that channel.
General chat will always be toxic. If VR punishes people harshly for hurting your feelings or disagreeing with your opinion they will not have any players left eventually. They will all be banned for some reason or another.
Unless the person is physically harassing you and you cannot ignore the person without completely logging out, then people just need to learn to deal. Censorship is evil. Forcing your moral opinions on other people is wrong. No matter what form it takes. If I want to be a complete ******, I have the god given right to be an ****** as long as I am not harassing someone. If you can simply /ignore a person in a chat, then they cannot forcably speak to you and harass you in that way any longer. The prolem has been solved. That person will ultimately gain a bad rep and people will avoid them. then they will either quit, change, or be very lonely trying to solo through a game that requires grouping to be successful.
I would rather have the devs work on more important items to address than policing jerks. We can't change people's excuses to be rude to each other but I am happy to just ignore them (I would assume this option will be available).
People I don't like (because they don't know how to speak or use an excuse of "I'm not politically correct" to be rude) I ignore in game as well as in person. I think that makes them more made. I move on as if they never existed. They hate that! It gives me satisfaction without doing any more. There are more important things in life than worrying about what some anonymous person said online!
Agreed. Just give us simple tools to filter those people out. Let the devs focus on making a good game and let people censor the game how they wish for themselves.
Just add a simple profanity filter option, /ingore, and the ability to /leave a chat channel and that should be everything needed for someone to avoid anything they don't wish to see.
Making light of harassment is just ignorant. It is a problem. /ignore works for some situations but not all. There needs to be a final solution for those people who cannot empathise with how another human being feels and thinks its ok to make people's lives a misery on a repeated basis.
Sorry but making a stupid remark or rude comment is not harassment.
Harassment is the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.
If you ignore a person they cannot continue to speak to you, and thus cannot harass you via chat. As said before, if they are doing something else that is impeading your gameplay and you cannot stop it short of logging out, then that is harassment and they should be removed.
Don't confuse harassment with someone making a rude comment off handedly. They are NOT the same. Empathy is not something anyone can enforce and, frankly, is not something that should be enforced. Again that would be forcing YOUR view of morality onto another person and that is wrong. Some people are jerks. Deal with it. You don't have to listen to them, but you can't stop them from speaking their mind. That, again, is wrong. Not sure if you live in the US or not, but thats how it is supposed to work here. Freedom of speach. Though with all this PC bullshit these days that is becoming less and less.
EDIT: weird line break jumped in there for some reason
kellindil said:Don't confuse harassment with someone making a rude comment off handedly. They are NOT the same. Empathy is not something anyone can enforce and, frankly, is not something that should be enforced. Again that would be forcing YOUR view of morality onto another person and that is wrong. Some people are jerks. Deal with it. You don't have to listen to them, but you can't stop them from speaking their mind. That, again, is wrong.
^ This. Very well said.
kellindil: Sorry but making a stupid remark or rude comment is not harassment.
At no point, did I say someone should be banned for rude remarks. At no point did I say that someone should be banned for speaking one's mind. I definately know the difference and you are mis-representing my intention and my point of view. This was all about harassment and not normal every day banter. There is a huge difference. /ignore for rude. Kicked for harassment. Im sorry, but I cannot make it any simpler than that.
Giving someone the finger is rude. Someone going out of their way to stop someone else from enjoying a game, however it is achieved, over a period, is harassment, it isnt being rude and it should not be condoned.
I dont care about rudeness. I care about sustained harassment.
I just watched a twitch streamer playing AA, and noticed in the faction chat someone descibing how the friend they played with had just died of cancer. With no hesitation the faction chat responded with heckling, trolling and ridiculing. It was mind-numbing to see.
I mentioned it in the stream chat and of course a number of other viewers trolled right back that "what did I expect, it's the internet", and "people should know better than to say things like that in general chat", and so forth.
Well aside from the obvious, that playing a game is not the general internet, you do not expect to be subjected to such mindless and disgusting individuals in a product you may pay for, much less see them allowed to proceed with no penalty, ban or removal.
These types of outbursts in games of the past were directly dealt with and were covered by EULA's. There were methods to report their conversation and they would be dealt with. But modern games do not seem to give a care what is said no matter how racist, bigoted, misogynistic and otherwise it may be.
Obviously tracking this type of behavior for large games with thousands of players is a chore. But personally I have little interest in playing any game that lets these types of players exist and this kind of hate speech to be the norm.
What can I expect of Pantheon in regards to this currently common activity in modern MMO gaming?
The original post is talking about someone chatting in game and being heckled. That is what I am refering to and that is not harassment. You, like most here, seem to have stepped past what the original poster was talking about and have started talking about harassment.
What the OP described is not harassment. There are easy ways to stop this by just ignoring those who make the comments.
The point I want to drive home is that what OP described is NOT harassment. So your arguement that we need heavy moderation for harassment is moot because this is not harassment.
Now if you ignored the person, and then they go make a new character and continue to message you and you then ignore that character and in turn they make a new character. Now THAT is harassment. That should be punished. Regardless of the content of the messages. It should be punished because it is harassment, not because he was being racist or rude or sexist.
If someone started sending me tells offering me free things or helpful life advice and i ignore them, and they make a new character so that they can continue to speak to me, that is harassment. Even if their intent is good and they are polite and kind and they are just trying to help, that person should be banned as well because IT IS HARASSMENT. The content does not matter in the least.
We do not need moderation and censorship of chat. We need a hard stance against harassment and for the community to understand what is harassment.
Folks, I have made our stance very clear, please respect that and refrain from arguing over opinions and expectations.
We will not hold the hands of people who can easily /ignore and /report someone as those features will be in game, we will, however, step in and stop any abuse, threats, harrassment etc.
If this thread continues to go down hill based on arguments and opinions contrary to what I have posted, it will be closed.
So hypthetical question
Player A dies IRL and he plays on a PVP server. Lets say that faction decides to hold a funeral march that takes them across an open PVP zone. Player B who doesnt care decides that he cant allow an 8x of players to roam free so he gathers a 3x or 4x of his best guildies and they fly in and kill the 8x for the next hour.
Does a GM zone in and freeze everyone or does the slaughter keep going unti Player B is bored.
Kalgore said:So hypthetical question
Player A dies IRL and he plays on a PVP server. Lets say that faction decides to hold a funeral march that takes them across an open PVP zone. Player B who doesnt care decides that he cant allow an 8x of players to roam free so he gathers a 3x or 4x of his best guildies and they fly in and kill the 8x for the next hour.
Does a GM zone in and freeze everyone or does the slaughter keep going unti Player B is bored.
That would depend on our GM policy for handling situations like that, which hasn't been created yet.
In my personal opinion, it is a disrespectful and rude action but not one I would interfere with as the game world is open for everyone in every zone and real life tragedies sadly happen all the time but we cannot stop and expect our player base to all be put on hold or stop what they are doing every time this happens, the game world is separate from real life and should remain that way, if PvP players want to gank a group of players mourning the loss of their friend then they can if they choose too just as the mourning players have the right to attack back and defend themselves as they should have been on guard or organised lookouts/security to help protect them from such attacks on a PvP server.
I Have to Agree with Dullahan and Kilsin on this, If anything if you don't do it is a city do it somewhere close and easy to protect yourself or somewhere where maybe only you Faction only goes to becuase of the high population of your Faction always being there. I know if i knew the situation and i was player B i wouldn't do anything but if all i saw was a grp of people roaming through a zone and i wanted them gone i would get some of my guildies to get rid of them. And I'm Guessing in the PVP server different factions probably won't be able to understand each other, so notifying them of what your doing might not be a possibility.