Amsai said: People can and will participate in bad behavior. There was a infamous tank on my server in XI that played schizo like. Hed do something horrible like ninja loot one day then help noobies and give out loot and gil the next. So he got away with alot because he was a great tank even though because of some of the **** he pulled he bounced around guilds. It happens.
I agree that this happens, but I reject the idea that this supports the reasoning of giving people a free pass. That's my biggest gripe.
To me it only gives credence to the idea that no, /ignore is NOT enough of a deterrent or a punishment for someone being bigoted or sexually harassing a player. If Kalgore can stalk me and ask me for nudes (I said NO, Kalgore. Stop asking), and get ignored by multiple people as a result, but STILL be invited to groups simply because he is a good tank, then that's not a consequence. Actually, that just makes me want to ban that smug look on Kalgore's face even more.
Not too surprised that I'm in the minority here. It saddens me that we've come to accept that kind of behavior as the norm in on-line gaming from a bunch of pasty faced weirdos that finally get the opportunity to be the aggressor after a lifetime of probably getting wedgies in school.
Anyway, moot point, I accept the idea of ignore being account wide and banning happening after multiple serious offenses from various people, as has been said. Just a thought.
Amsai said: Oh I wouldnt give them a free pass. In a PvE community if you think it warrants it then report it. Other than that shun them and pass the word along. In a PvP environment kill them every chance you get and let everyone else you know to do the same. Maybe even put a hit out on them. Give em a good enough spanking and they likely wont do it again.
I agree it isnt a free pass per say. They will be stuck with only there guild to group with which sometimes it isnt enough. Ill admit it I can be real real mean when I played EQ2 the funeral is only one example. But I also handed out thousands of plat and gear tanked zones that I didnt need to help random people out even did some noob pickup raids for fun. The Ignore should make it so Kalgore can never ask Dave for Nudes again. if he finds a way then its time to report but first action should be /ignore and only if they find a way around it should a GM get invovled
As for PVP Sorry No one kills Kalgore the almighty crusader
Kalgore said:Amsai said: Oh I wouldnt give them a free pass. In a PvE community if you think it warrants it then report it. Other than that shun them and pass the word along. In a PvP environment kill them every chance you get and let everyone else you know to do the same. Maybe even put a hit out on them. Give em a good enough spanking and they likely wont do it again.
I agree it isnt a free pass per say. They will be stuck with only there guild to group with which sometimes it isnt enough. Ill admit it I can be real real mean when I played EQ2 the funeral is only one example. But I also handed out thousands of plat and gear tanked zones that I didnt need to help random people out even did some noob pickup raids for fun. The Ignore should make it so Kalgore can never ask Dave for Nudes again. if he finds a way then its time to report but first action should be /ignore and only if they find a way around it should a GM get invovled
As for PVP Sorry No one kills Kalgore the almighty crusader though in EVE i did have like billion isk bounty on me for scamming billions of isk from noobs as well as stealing from a Corp.. That Bounty sucked sometimes :(
Medjai said:I am going with Vandraad on this one. A gaming channel and death of a loved one or friend is NOT the place to talk about it.
Log out and go talk to friends and family about it. Do you think that a bunch of children on the internet give a crap what happened to anyone?
/filter for bad words.
/ignore for trolls
/report for harassment
it's not game makers place to police "feelings" getting hurt because people chose to share their personal lives in a place that it doesn't belong.
Do I think it's terrible that people have no heart? sure.
Do I share personal, heart breaking news with forums or in twitch streams expecting sympathy or empathy? NO.
People need to learn the internet and facebook is not a caring, loving place. Go talk to the humans that are right in front of you about Life.
People are so involved with staring at their facebook feeds, they don't even know their own family anymore.
Turn the computer, tv and (most important) your phone off and go talk to them.
This !
Great Post
I think that making the game group heavy will take away alot of this. I remember when creating an alt in Vangaurd (when it became FTP) some lvl 10 spammed duel and name called me (at lvl 3) coward and such. I simply said, you wont be around much longer and viola, he didn't make it past lvl 12.
while, i would be glad to have the trolls gone, and if they choose to be a bit more draconian on that, no worries here. however, being excluded from the community, in a game focusing on community, would likely put an end to it.
while i agree that open channels may well not be the best place for referencing rl death, the 'boys will be boys' attitude is a particularly poisonous attitude.
I'm sorry, but I still think whiney people with their finger poised on the Report button are as destructive to community as the asshats using racial slurs. I do agree that there's obviously a line that should not be crossed, and those cases should be reported and the moderators should react. But I dont think any one instance of simple words should be bannable. There are just too many people that are way too offended by the most simple things. There are misinterpretations, there are moments of anger, and there are cases where people have been baited by professional victims into saying things they would never ordinarily say.
Not to mention that the kinds of moderation you're demanding are rarely applied with balance. For instance, I bet I can say "cracker" here or in game with no repercussions. But I bet I cant say some other words.... Words, btw, that can be repeated a dozen or more times in a single song that plays on normal FM radio, and whether its ok to say is based on who used that word. Why do we let words have so much power over one another?
I would love to see /ignore being account-wide. That is a VERY good idea.
Would also be nice if /ignore was 2-way and the person I ignored never saw anything from me again as well. That way if someone got ignored by a lot of people their chat channels would be very quiet and there would be little for them to respond to or start trolling over.
Feyshtey said:I'm sorry, but I still think whiney people with their finger poised on the Report button are as destructive to community as the asshats using racial slurs. I do agree that there's obviously a line that should not be crossed, and those cases should be reported and the moderators should react. But I dont think any one instance of simple words should be bannable. There are just too many people that are way too offended by the most simple things. There are misinterpretations, there are moments of anger, and there are cases where people have been baited by professional victims into saying things they would never ordinarily say.
Not to mention that the kinds of moderation you're demanding are rarely applied with balance. For instance, I bet I can say "cracker" here or in game with no repercussions. But I bet I cant say some other words.... Words, btw, that can be repeated a dozen or more times in a single song that plays on normal FM radio, and whether its ok to say is based on who used that word. Why do we let words have so much power over one another?
a player can report someone all day. it doesn't affect one other player. it is the mods reaction to the report that might. for this, perhaps having all chat time stamped on the servers and having a filter so a mod could pull up the whole of the conversation, and filter out those lfg, thus if a player is baited the reporter has the same consequence. there is usually a progression of responses so if someone is having a bad day they usually are banned for a short period of time a day, maybe 3, with increases happening when it becomes a trend instead of an isolated incident.
words have power because they represent ideas. the gettysburg address, the declaration of independence, the i have a dream speech, the various holy texts, etc. are simply collections of words. to that notion, the idea behind the word cracker while derogatory, has none of the history of murder or vitriol or dehumanization of the "n-word" or redskin. thus the idea represented by it is far less powerful.
i do like when ignore goes both ways, and also stops any grouping mechanics.
ultimately, i think this game will not have much of a troll problem, due to not being able to solo fly through content.
an idea: they could have more levels of punishment, thus allowing for punishing of more slight tragressions with maybe a 1 day regionsay ban, increase to vendor costs, decrease in xp, good(or oppressed) faction loss or the like. this could work both ways: report more than x players in y time and you get faction penalty for factions that dont like snitches. could become very RP. (hehe, banned for a few days: sure you can log in, but you are in stocks and gagged, so no chat works and you can't move. but you can watch the people walking by....)
Anonymity is the problem. Let the community do it's business. That's how EQ1 was for the most part. Sure you had ingame GM intervention relatively often, but I can't remember anything being NEARLY as toxic as any other game after EQ's glory days. I witnessed my first dedicated "general" chat troll for the first time in WoW. Most servers only had a few early on until it became a fad.
I think you'll remove anonymity a number of ways. Primarily the two main routes being game difficulty, i.e. getting a new character up to speed from leveling to raid flags and whatnot and forcing the community to work together via class uniqueness, game difficulty and other topics that probably deserve their own thread. Such as how many characters can we box? How many characters can a real person play at once? Will this game be spammed with bots like WoW running around in groups of 5 to 40?
Main points reiterated
Make any given player NEED the community and you'll immediately weed out a large number of weekend warrior trolls.
People should take pride in their name, their guilds. Which may be enforced by game design.
Link all characters to the same account when it comes to looking up their guilds, being ignored, successful reports against them(maybe general label of crime i.e. scamming, ninja looting, harassment)
Probably unlikely to link NEW accounts to old accounts anytime a paper trail is left behind i.e. account name coinciding with CC name. Though you'll have your store bought game copies and game time.
Anyway, whatever EQ did to make your own your s*** made the community generally, as I remember, very friendly. You mostly had drunk and arrogant college students being the worst offenders which was so minor in today's troll culture.
it's not game makers place to police "feelings" getting hurt because people chose to share their personal lives in a place that it doesn't belong.
Take a look at League of Legends and the work they have done to punish players who grief other players. They even have statistical data which suggests these players who grief others are ‘worse’ players by a very large margin. I think that’s a pretty amazing thing they have done. (and great data!)
Not only does their policy immediately remove threats, but they also filter out bad behavior over time.
Saying that a game developer should not care about their players “feelings” getting hurt could be a very flawed way to think. After all, it’s the community which helps bring new players into the fold. We the players, armed with the right tools can protect ourselves to a degree, but, the problem does not go away for others.
Here is something to consider.
You have the right to say whatever you want, and do whatever you want to do. But you will face consequences for your choices.
If a person attacks me for being gay on this game, I don’t want to just put them on ignore. You see, I’m a Tank. I want to protect people from harm. I want there to be a tool to make sure this player doesn’t get a chance to bully or harm anyone else. One bad experience can do a lot more damage than you think.
Here is something else to consider.
Some things you think are easy to step over and overcome are like mountains to other people.
This translates to a very real situation where people who are shamelessly mean to other players will cause a player to quit the game due to the harassment and bullying. If this kind of thing repeats often enough, the player base will be a discord of something vile I’ll not want to be a part of, and neither will a number of you.
-Todd
@ Alephen, Slythyr & Tehtawd - All great posts! Cheers
Thanks Hokanu,
And thank you everyone for having this conversation – it’s really important to share how you feel in a constructive way and I’m sure Kilsin appreciates that.
While this discussion is important, I don’t have any doubts there will be some kind of mechanism in place to deal with what it is I posted before. Many games, MMO’s and Non-MMO’s, have these features. I believe it’s because the ‘health’ of your players attitudes ‘in-game’ correlates to the prosperity of the game itself.
-Todd
While I have never been a victim of abuse nor have I been abusive for the sake of being a jerk, I do believe every community needs to have some form of censorship in place. Even if the structure is built initially but not used until needed. I'd rather that VR be forward thinking in this regard. I think it would be a big challenge to build something in down the line being reactionary.
Banning may be an extreme reaction to abusive situations but what about time being the penalty? We discussed this on the discord server and the one thing that seemed like a good idea was penalizing the offensive person by reducing their levels. If it is to believed that levelling will be tough to obtain and slow, I'd hate to go from 40 to 20 at a GM's whim. That would be a setback not only to you but your guild and party.
tehtawd said:@ Alephen, Slythyr & Tehtawd - All great posts! Cheers
Thanks Hokanu,
And thank you everyone for having this conversation – it’s really important to share how you feel in a constructive way and I’m sure Kilsin appreciates that.
While this discussion is important, I don’t have any doubts there will be some kind of mechanism in place to deal with what it is I posted before. Many games, MMO’s and Non-MMO’s, have these features. I believe it’s because the ‘health’ of your players attitudes ‘in-game’ correlates to the prosperity of the game itself.
-Todd
I certainly do, I watch and read everything and it is so nice to see you all discussing topics in such a mature and constructive manner, it gets noticed more than the less constructive threads, that is for sure :)
I really like this 2 way ignore idea that hides your chat from those you have on ignore. Such a thing could prevent all kinds of drama and lead to trolls being very isolated.
As to players ignoring others being a bad thing, I think that is ridiculous. People should be able to ignore anyone they want at any time, for any reason. The notion that ignore is a bad thing can only be the product of a desire to forcibly subject people to something they dislike.
Dullahan said:I really like this 2 way ignore idea that hides your chat from those you have on ignore. Such a thing could prevent all kinds of drama and lead to trolls being very isolated.
As to players ignoring others being a bad thing, I think that is ridiculous. People should be able to ignore anyone they want at any time, for any reason. The notion that ignore is a bad thing can only be the product of a desire to forcibly subject people to something they dislike.
This 2 way ignore idea is something I could absolutely get behind.
2 way account wide ignore, i like this... However lets take it even further. how about all accounts registered to the same user? or credit card? that way we cant have a troll account and then have a play nice account!
as for the talk about what racial slurs are the worst, IMHO its the ones said in hate at another. its not the words used its the feelings held by the user that are hurtful. words alone have no power.
For every bad word comes a "Filter chat" system, for every bad person comes a "Ignore Feature" but to ask a whole team to moderate a chat system is costly.
Self moderation, is the most important feature a game dev can put in place. Having someone police the system, you might as have border security put in place, and monitor your own country.
There is a correct system put in place for reporting these individuals, i suggest getting used to it and /ignore them. Explain the reasons behind it and if so snap shot the whole thing. We have tools such as shadowplay etc.. to record what is going on.
To put yourself through so much harrassment and watch it isnt fair to you. You dont deserve to listen to the trollish behaviour.
The report feature can fire back on people too, if it is abused because someone believes they can troll using it.
So it goes both ways, always remember that.
Make the game good, and the community will filter out all the asshats in the end, but truth be told if the WOW atmosphere comes here, ill find a new game period.
Raidan said: Honestly - I'm tired of the PC world. I don't want terrible personal attacks in game, but I don't want over moderation either. Unfortunately - people are people whether you buy in or not. My thoughts are people on a whole today are generally more disrespectful overall - not just on the internet. Just look how many common courtesies don't occur anymore or are expected if they do without a thanks - like holding a door open for someone. Further, many things can be interpreted as offensive today that weren't considered that way in the old school age, which would make moderation much more difficult. So I'd propose a few steps. 1 & 2. I want a good profanity /filter to be present in Pantheon along with an /ignore. 3. And, if someone does make continued personal attacks, have a /report feature where GMs can intervene. 4. Lasty, a good EULA should exist, but I want the community to be the first line of defense. If Pantheon's community is like what you describe of AA - there's no hope for it anyway. Make server reps matter again, player choices, etc. and most of the previous hinges on Pantheon's necessity to have forced grouping. Basically similar to my stance on griefing.
Nice!!!!
Gawd said:2 way account wide ignore, i like this... However lets take it even further. how about all accounts registered to the same user? or credit card? that way we cant have a troll account and then have a play nice account!