alephen said:
Feyshtey saidThat's assault, and its rightfully illegal. Short of telling you I'm going to physically harm you or through my speech putting you in direct physical harm, no matter what else I say you have no right to touch me. Period. End of story. If you do you have commited a crime punishable by law.
You're absolutely right that the owner/operator of any business has the right to eject or otherwise refuse to serve anyone. And by extension, so do any MMO's. They have a right to protect the integrity of the game and the rights of their users. In an MMO they can provide tools for the users to protect themselves, and methods to deal with anyone who abuses those tools. In a regular brick and mortar business it's a little different. You can't create a bubble around an ****** and prevent anyone from hearing their crap, so the alternative is to throw them out. That's perfectly reasonable because you want to maintain a space that is pleasant for the customers you want to keep. And that's not an option out of the realm of possibility in an MMO either. If a person is continuously an ****** to muliple people, the option to boot them should absolutely exist.[Edit: That same business has the right to decide to do absolutely nothing. And by extension, so does every MMO...]
However, that doesnt mean that if anyone ever says a word , a time, they shoould be banned, which is precisely what the some here have proposed. It also doesnt mean that it's unreasonable to expect that people use the tools given them to prevent their interaction with a person they choose not to intereact with. If you have the means to avoid the ****** and you choose not to use it, and you choose to continue feeding the trolls, expect the trolls to come back for feeding.
I am saying that an offensive word only has power to offend if you allow yourself to be offended. It doesnt matter if it's racial, or cultural, or vulgar, or otherwise. Particulary in the case of people using those words not because they are actually racial but simply because they know it'll piss you off. Be pissed, be offended. That's your right. But if you refuse to engage with the ****** you take any power he might have weilded over you. That's your choice.
a couple of points. 1) among the principles of constitutional law exists the idea of 'fighting words,' which appears to specifically apply to aggregious personal verbal attacks.
2) one would have to be rather well in control of his emotions to never allow himself to be offended. he would need to extraordinarily humble to not defend an unjust attack on his reputation. in fact if even most people were capable of this level of control, the trolls would not exist. furthermore, words often lead to actions (inciting speech.) thus while i am often not personally offended by speech, i will report all racist/hate speech. this is because others see that speech. scapegoating is very powerful, communities that embrace this verbal dehumanization of a population produce individuals who have no issue commiting heinous crimes against those people.
3) businesses actually have some responsibility to restrict 'free speech.' an easy example is if they allow a hostile workplace to exist, they get sued (and lose) along with the harasser.
4) reporting is actually a tool where one can assert themselves without engaging. you may disagree, without it, or with the expectation that reporting the individual will have no real actions is likely to increase engagement. particularly if reporting a player immediately ignores them. conversation over, harassment over.
ultimately, how far one should be allowed go before getting banned is simply based on opinion. but i would be suprised if racist/hate speech is not treated harshly, not because we are too weak to ignore it, but because we decide what kind of a community we wish to belong to, and if it were not punished far more people would decide to move to another community then would if it were tolerated.
i don't think it is weakness to say, 'i don't want to be part of a toxic community. i don't want to endure this behavior. i don't want to support it.' i actually think it is strength. most of us would, if at the mall and confronted by some racist comment not directed at us, not comment, not risk. it is why we honor king jr, and parks, and robinson, and chavez, and so many others who had the courage to stand up. it takes far less courage then they showed to report someone, sure. but if we cannot stand up when there is no risk, what chance have we to stand up when there is?
Much more eloquently said than I could have done.
I've taken a step back from this thread for a moment - although it is a VERY respectful interchange of ideals, and I appreciate the fact that we can all have these kinds of conversations - it is also becoming more a topic of political opinion mixed in with MMO wants and needs.
I will say one thing. If only our political representatives could have humble and respectful disagreements and conversations like this. That would be a sweet world.
alephen said:a couple of points. 1) among the principles of constitutional law exists the idea of 'fighting words,' which appears to specifically apply to aggregious personal verbal attacks.
2) one would have to be rather well in control of his emotions to never allow himself to be offended. he would need to extraordinarily humble to not defend an unjust attack on his reputation. in fact if even most people were capable of this level of control, the trolls would not exist. furthermore, words often lead to actions (inciting speech.) thus while i am often not personally offended by speech, i will report all racist/hate speech. this is because others see that speech. scapegoating is very powerful, communities that embrace this verbal dehumanization of a population produce individuals who have no issue commiting heinous crimes against those people.
3) businesses actually have some responsibility to restrict 'free speech.' an easy example is if they allow a hostile workplace to exist, they get sued (and lose) along with the harasser.
4) reporting is actually a tool where one can assert themselves without engaging. you may disagree, without it, or with the expectation that reporting the individual will have no real actions is likely to increase engagement. particularly if reporting a player immediately ignores them. conversation over, harassment over.
ultimately, how far one should be allowed go before getting banned is simply based on opinion. but i would be suprised if racist/hate speech is not treated harshly, not because we are too weak to ignore it, but because we decide what kind of a community we wish to belong to, and if it were not punished far more people would decide to move to another community then would if it were tolerated.
i don't think it is weakness to say, 'i don't want to be part of a toxic community. i don't want to endure this behavior. i don't want to support it.' i actually think it is strength. most of us would, if at the mall and confronted by some racist comment not directed at us, not comment, not risk. it is why we honor king jr, and parks, and robinson, and chavez, and so many others who had the courage to stand up. it takes far less courage then they showed to report someone, sure. but if we cannot stand up when there is no risk, what chance have we to stand up when there is?
1) I've never ever heard of anyone avoiding an assault charge with a defense of "He had it coming, he used fighting words". Although I will concede that Freedom of Speech specifically protects a citizen from reprisal by government and doesnt gaurantee there will not be negative repercussions by the community. This is expected, and can be quite right. If a person is actually a raging racist the community should shun him in every legal way.
2) I agree on every point. I've reiterated most in this thread. People lose control, they get pissed/offended, and they say things they shouldnt have said. There is a report tool, I will report blatantly racist speech as well. I noted specifically that speech that puts a person in physical danger is not protected or appropriate. None of these were ever a point in contention, at least from my perspective. My statement was that a person who has become offended, who has gotten pissed, who has said something they really shouldnt have said to begin with, should not be outright banned on a first offense. This was in reply to another poster who suggested exactly that: Instant ban for any racial slur. That I do disagree with, because as you have pointed out, people are human and sometimes say stupid s*** they dont actually believe just to score a point in a fight.
3) Depending on the scenario you're right. But it is a violation of a person civil rights to fire them because they say they support candidate X in the next election. So there's a balance there.
4) I agree. I support a report button. I think they should be used, and I will use it myself. I simply noted that there are those out there desperately seeking a reason to be offended so they can mash that button again and again, and I suggested that those people are as destructive to community as the raging racist.
For the rest of your post, we're still in agreement :) I hope to play this game with my wife and my son. I dont want my son exposed to a bunch of truly racist, bigoted idiocy. But I also don't ever want him to believe that he has a right to never be offended. Far too many people seem to believe that to be true, and are on a crusade to ensure no one ever says something they don't like.
Crazzie said:Well, lets first start by saying i have seen more adults create more harm, acts of crimes then most kids do. It seems to me the new standard is harassment to others. People gang up on others in communities then i have ever seen. If your not in the "in crowd" even as an adult your harassed.
We see parents saying to their children, dont harm others YET!!! they go around teaming up with other adults to harass others.
So who should we really learn from? our 5 year old.
Its no different in a game, then it is on your very own street block.
I agree. This kind of thing is horrible. And it's equally horrible when, as random example, a person is shunned because they are a returning soldier or a person is shunned because they state that they despise the military and all it's horrors. These are views from the polar opposites of the spectrum, and both have a right to state their belief. Niether should be shunned. Neither should be silenced. And anyone that disagrees with that sentiment is one most guilty of bigotry and diviseness. A fundimental truism is that the speech most important to protect is the speech you dislike. Our society is rapidly sliding into one in which that is not held to heart, and if you don't agree with me you should be banned, picketed, boycotted and ostracized. I find that to be rather repulsive, and generally the result of people unable to argue a topic on its merits and must instead silence the opposition to feel as though they have won the argument.
@thetawd
I dont know that I've seen any vitriol here :) It's been a pretty rational and calm discussion for the most part. Unfortunately I do think many people fear entering discussions like this, and that promotes the "us vs. them" mindset so many have. We can almost always come together and agree on more than we disagree on if we just get past the BS we keep getting fed by our media and our politicians who profit from us being at each other's throats.
Drac346 said:This was a very long thread and I did not read every word. But…
I would like /ignore to allow for adding a short note. It would be nice as a reminder why I ignored them.
/ignore Drac346 hatter
/ignore Drac346 keeps training group to grief
That's an awesome addition. Love this idea.
Kind of late to the party. but some people keep mentioning adding account names being viewable. yes sure a jerk could easily log off of a toon he is know for being a jerk to get away why stop him from being a nice guy on his other toon he will eventually be found out esp if he acts back up on that toon too. The main reason I am against it is sometimes I go on an alt to get away from friends/guild sometimes you just need a break or to meet new people.
maybe even have the option to /ignore account I for one have only ignnored 1 maybe 2 people ever in my mmo experiences (except for the case of gold sellers then it would prob be closer to 9999999) and that's only when they kept spamming so much I couldn't tell what others were saying.
These games really need a Yelp like rating system, you should be able to click on a player and see if they've got any complaints, enough complaints and the user is banned, it keeps happening they get deleted.
I was in Velks the other night on Ragefire and this Darkwind goon decides to pull the entire zone for his AOE group. Doesn't matter who is camping what, he was taking from EVERY group. Along the way there was a few deaths because of his trains. When we call him out in OOC for this he starts calling the people complaining "retards". There is basically NO recourse to fix this. We should all be able to do SOMETHING.
revolw said:These games really need a Yelp like rating system, you should be able to click on a player and see if they've got any complaints, enough complaints and the user is banned, it keeps happening they get deleted.
I was in Velks the other night on Ragefire and this Darkwind goon decides to pull the entire zone for his AOE group. Doesn't matter who is camping what, he was taking from EVERY group. Along the way there was a few deaths because of his trains. When we call him out in OOC for this he starts calling the people complaining "retards". There is basically NO recourse to fix this. We should all be able to do SOMETHING.
Wholly disagree with the notion of a rating system.
Take your personal experience in Velks. Lets say you reported this person, and the gm's actually responded and banned him. What if he were in a very large, very established guild of jerks. Every single player in that guild could rate you with the lowest possible rating and provide completely unsubstantiated claims against you in retaliation for you getting their guildmate banned.
Feyshtey said:revolw said:These games really need a Yelp like rating system, you should be able to click on a player and see if they've got any complaints, enough complaints and the user is banned, it keeps happening they get deleted.
I was in Velks the other night on Ragefire and this Darkwind goon decides to pull the entire zone for his AOE group. Doesn't matter who is camping what, he was taking from EVERY group. Along the way there was a few deaths because of his trains. When we call him out in OOC for this he starts calling the people complaining "retards". There is basically NO recourse to fix this. We should all be able to do SOMETHING.Wholly disagree with the notion of a rating system.
Take your personal experience in Velks. Lets say you reported this person, and the gm's actually responded and banned him. What if he were in a very large, very established guild of jerks. Every single player in that guild could rate you with the lowest possible rating and provide completely unsubstantiated claims against you in retaliation for you getting their guildmate banned.
Easy solution to that problem.
First, rating should have no bearing on bans or GM intervention. It would be for the players.
Second, you can only rate someone you've recently grouped with for longer than X minutes.
Those two things would prevent most abuse, but I could think of other criteria if we really wanted to. Not that I endorse a rating system or think it necessary, only that those aren't good arguments in opposition to one.
pendragen said:Second, you can only rate someone you've recently grouped with for longer than X minutes."
I'm not so much for this system but in the example Rev used this wouldnt even apply.. as the guy was never in his group
Yup. The purpose for a rating system in the example given is negated by the fix to that rating system to prevent abuse.
I hark back to original EQ.
People relating experience in modern games (predominantly MOBA/lobby style or 'single-person' MMOs) as missing a key, cruicial part of the equation. Community. EQ (and even VG, though to a much much lesser extent) was community-centric in nature.
Since (a) levelling became more and more group-oriented as you moved up from lower levels towards 'end-game' and (b) there was NO way to change your name/server, your reputation was ALL. This meant that if you behaved like an ass-hat, people would notice - perhaps even /ignore you. Your reputation would suffer badly. Repeated occurrences would limit you to lower level PUGs since all the rest would err on the side of caution and not invite you. This was even truer of Guilds. Damaging your Guild's reputation was a good way to get yourself kicked... and good luck getting into any half-decent guild after that!
In addition, there were NO Global channels. Global channels suck up the dregs (be they spammers, gold-sellers or bigoted idiots). This, at least relegates their behaviour to a smaller part of the system - typically full of people they need to group up with. Getting your peers to mass /ignore you is a great way to ensure you never group again.
Beyond this self-policing, I imagine Pantheon would have a robust archive system that allows /report [Tho i *really* like the idea of being able to add notes ie: '/ignore ' to link through to chat in /ooc etc where GM or Guides (assuming they have them) can parse the reports to pass questionable behaviour 'upstairs'.
IMHO a ranking system will merely be adding petrol to a highlky flammable problem.
PS: KILL the Gold-spammers!! (or at least tax them to death)
Feyshtey said:While I agree that there's a line that should not be crossed, I think perma-bans for people guilty of basically just being rude is way over the top. When did we decide that no one can ever be offended? When did we become so thin-skinned and incapable of just ignoring jerks? I can totally see why you would never wantt o interact with a person that does those kinds of things again. /Ignore accomplishes that. Screaming that you want no one to ever hear something you dont like is just... (forgive the irony of this statement in its context) ... childish.
Well said Feyshtey. Couldn't agree more. Some folks are simply rude by nature, or just have no filters. Others just like to troll to see if they can antagonize anyone. Whatever the case may be, just ignore them. They will usually go away if they don't get a response from you. If they don't then use /ignore so they no longer exist to you.
I typically avoid global chat myself due to the inanity that generally prevails there in most mmo's. Group, guild, and local chat usually meet my needs. Even then you will always find people with different opinions that you may find offensive for whatever reason, but the opposite holds true as well. Don't allow someone else's opinion or boorish behavior to interfere with your gaming. Toughen up, get a thicker skin, and go about your business as usual.
I could go on, but I won't... It''s just my opinion ;)
Typos. Hate typing on my phone.
OK, I really hate it when when this topic comes up and people start talking about censorship and freedom of speech. Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom of Speech without consequences. In life, you should expect that if you walk into a pre-school and start spewing obsenities you will be asked to leave. You cant expect to walk into a funeral and start shouting about your views on the deceased and not be told to leave. You cant walk up to just anyone and say just anything you want to them now matter what.
Yes you can say whatever you want to say. But that is not to say that there will not be any consequences for doing so. Also, just so you know. Harassment is punishable. And by law, speech, both spoken and written, can be included in harassment.
So all the devs need to do is make rules against harassment and what you say and how you say it can be considered for taking action.
All I have to say is Dont be a jerk and you have nothing to worry about. If you want to speak you nonsense, get out of my funeral, get out of my kids pre-school, and go make a blog to express your "freedom of speech".
People over-complicate this.
The reasonable solution is to provide the tools to players to moderate their own experience to their liking. What this entails is nothing complicated, only:
Problem solved. If people are bothering you or you just think they're annoying, ignore them. If they're harassing you or others clearly, submit a report for harassment.
Sicario said:People over-complicate this.
The reasonable solution is to provide the tools to players to moderate their own experience to their liking. What this entails is nothing complicated, only:
- Account-wide ignore feature
- Chat profanity filter with on/off toggle set to 'off' by default
- Report button for harassment
- Ability to choose which chatrooms you wish to be in (zone/map, general, tradeskill, etc.)
Problem solved. If people are bothering you or you just think they're annoying, ignore them. If they're harassing you or others clearly, submit a report for harassment.
I agree that that features are needed. But the problem is not solved. It's only hidden.
I definitely understand the frustration that some experiences with people in game produce. Unfortunately, it will always be just hidden. Obviously, when there's clear harassment, that should be dealt with and from what we know there will be a report system in place and GMs available to help with serious issues (and I'm guessing issues that are a little more ambiguous than clear harassment). That, in addition to the features I listed, are definitely more than adequate and maintain a healthy balance between reasonable moderation and players' ability to express themselves (within reason).
I've seen both extremes in MMORPGs, and it really does come down to the overall culture created and nurtured by the devs. A big part of it comes from the top. And, as Kilsin said, player maturity has a lot to do with it, too.
I've seen the awful behavior mentioned by the OP, with people saying really crude things in response to news like someone passing away, etc. I've pretty much always seen this in MMOs that were "wide-open" in terms of PvP. It's mostly been in F2P titles at that, where the devs don't really care about individuals; they just want warm bodies logged in.
Though, even in WoW there was that infamous situation in the Winter place, where a vigil was held for someone, and the other faction raided and killed everyone. But again... being an open PvP server was a factor.
On the other hand, when I was playing FFXIV, a friend of my FC (guild) leaders passed away. We set up a march across Eorzea in their memory, passing through almost every zone. It started off with just us in the FC, and friends. Along the way, as people asked in area chat what was going on, we explained, and everyone either shared their condolences, or even joined in. One guy said something like "What the hell is this?", and when it was explained (though they hadn't said anything wrong), they apologized and offered their sympathies, and walked with us for a while. It was a really touching event, and it was amazing to see the community come together like that, not a troll among them. I know it meant a lot to my friends (the FC leaders).
A similar vigil was held some time after that, on another server and, similarly, the community was really sympathetic and respectful about it.
So, it definitely has a lot to do with the kind of community you nurture, and of course, what the players themselves bring to it..
I tend to think Pantheon, because of the game it's going to be, and the kind of player it's targeted for, is going to be more of the latter type, less of the troll type - at least here's hoping.
Through the experiences I have had in life, my education, and 15 yrs of supervisor/manager experience I can say that I believe the best way to stop people from doing something is to simply make it so that it is unprofitable or that doing it would be unsuccessful. You will remove 95% of the offenders. Punishing people, training (teaching) people, or even sypathizing with them does not work nearly as well. In our game, a person could simply get another account if they are banned.
Most people who make hateful remarks, say them out of a desire to find others that will support their beliefs or to exact a reaction. Often times their thoughts are very short sighted, such as being outraged for a single moment and blaming a group for their problems. The best way to get 99% of the people to change their behavior is to simply tell them they are wrong and then refuse to help them until they behave. It can take a lot of patience on your part, specifically if you want them to change now! Most people simply want to punish someone or to yell back at them, but that is just laziness on your part, and more importantly, it won't solve the problem.
We are going to be playing a game. And many people feel they should not be required to have patience or self control when dealing with these troubled people. Well, I personally believe that the day you surrender your responsibilies, is the day you will lose your freedoms. As an active member of this community, I consider it my responsibility to deal with troublesome people. And to deal with them in a controlled and mature manor. This is a community, after all. Not some pay to party club. As offensive as I find ignorant speach, you will not see me /ignore very many people. For one, I believe actions far outrank words, and for another I want all the information I can get. I am part of this community!
For the most part, I agree with Raidan, NoobieDoo, Feyshtey, and some others. Freedom of speach is critical. It is how we deal with problems. One of the few ways to truly make me angry is to blow sunshine up my you-know-what.(well intended fraud imo) I don't like a BSer. If you don't like what someone has to say, tell them that, and let your friends know what they said and how you feel about it. If you are a fun, responsible person you will likely have a lot of friends!
Side note, but related: One thing I loved about EQ1 was that I actually learned a number of skills I was able to apply in real life. (I think Raidan mentioned this as well) Thanks to the EQ1 market system, I was able to buy my RL house for 68% of asking price. It was all about knowing the market, the seller, and what you had to trade. I learned that in EQ! I have not learned any RL skills in any other games I have played. Why? They were all way to controlled and mearly demanded that I run a mouse. EQ1 was a true sandbox, the wild west of MMOs. Your fate was yours. I really would like to see this become a game where freedom is the rule, and community (not controls) is the method of dealing with problems.
My opinion. Everyone has one. Don't be afraid of it. Understand that it is just their opinion, not necessarily the truth.
EDIT: Feyshtey, just for the record: To strike someone is more than just assault, it is more importantly battery! ;)
Koreno said:OK, I really hate it when when this topic comes up and people start talking about censorship and freedom of speech. Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom of Speech without consequences. In life, you should expect that if you walk into a pre-school and start spewing obsenities you will be asked to leave. You cant expect to walk into a funeral and start shouting about your views on the deceased and not be told to leave. You cant walk up to just anyone and say just anything you want to them now matter what.
Yes you can say whatever you want to say. But that is not to say that there will not be any consequences for doing so. Also, just so you know. Harassment is punishable. And by law, speech, both spoken and written, can be included in harassment.
So all the devs need to do is make rules against harassment and what you say and how you say it can be considered for taking action.
All I have to say is Dont be a jerk and you have nothing to worry about. If you want to speak you nonsense, get out of my funeral, get out of my kids pre-school, and go make a blog to express your "freedom of speech".
I understand what you are saying, but in an American legal sense freedon of speech doesn't technically exist in our participation in a product we are liscencing from VR. The Terms of Use of MMOs always make it clear that developer can boot us from it anytime, for any reason they choose.
Beyond the "basic decency" I touched on in my last post, it seems to me that, in older MMOs, all the concerns in this thread were never a big issue and usually sorted out through good, old-fashioned player reputation and accountability, or, a /report for the more egregious ones (blatant racism, etc).
If you were a jerk, word got around, and you steadily weeded yourself out. If you were a cool, decent, normal person, you were fine.
I've seen it happen in FFXI. I've seen it happen in Lineage 2. I've seen it happen in other games. None of those games had any kind of elaborate policing system, beyond "don't attack or threaten others personally, or use sexist/racist/etc. phrases" - those things would incur a temp, or perm ban, depending on the severity or frequency.
But that was it. It was a common-sense approach that treated its players like mature individuals, capable of interacting and coping with other individuals, and the various encounters that would inevitably entail. There was no ever-present, overly vigilant playground monitor looking over everything we said or did, ready to shake a finger and send us to the principal's office if we did anything even slightly out of line.
Some of what I see in this thread kinda invokes images of a "nanny state", where people seem to want an experience where they never see/hear anything they find offensive, from anyone, ever... I dont' know if that's exactly what's being requested by some, but it comes across that way. It kinda reminds me of a co-worker whom is quick to try and shush anyone who says anything they don't like, or otherwise disagree with, including some really petty, unimportant things, because they're completely intolerant of any opinion other than their own. Fortunately, they don't get away with it.
I say start everyone as a blank slate, and give them enough rope to hang themselves with. Include a /block and /report function and that's it. In a discrete, non cross-server environment, player reputation will take care of the rest. Those with a penchant for being unruly idiots will burn through their rope fast enough on their own, either by incurring too many legitimate /reports, and/or by being /blocked by so many players that they, as I said above, weed themselves out.
Any desire to moderate the community beyond that just seems excessive, to me. I'd like to think none of us are fragile glass figurines that will shatter under the slightest "offense" by someone saying something we don't like. I'd like to think we won't have to behave as such.
The best moderation is to always try to be the player you want to see. Be kind, patient and tolerant. Especially to those that are not. Issues will arise, but as time goes by the community will move towards the norm. Help shape that norm, even if you have to occasionally hold your tongue.
In the end, you can't really moderate behavior. What you can do is encourage and reinforce the kind of behavior you expect from others.
Wolfsong said:Beyond the "basic decency" I touched on in my last post, it seems to me that, in older MMOs, all the concerns in this thread were never a big issue and usually sorted out through good, old-fashioned player reputation and accountability, or, a /report for the more egregious ones (blatant racism, etc).
If you were a jerk, word got around, and you steadily weeded yourself out. If you were a cool, decent, normal person, you were fine.
I've seen it happen in FFXI. I've seen it happen in Lineage 2. I've seen it happen in other games. None of those games had any kind of elaborate policing system, beyond "don't attack or threaten others personally, or use sexist/racist/etc. phrases" - those things would incur a temp, or perm ban, depending on the severity or frequency.
But that was it. It was a common-sense approach that treated its players like mature individuals, capable of interacting and coping with other individuals, and the various encounters that would inevitably entail. There was no ever-present, overly vigilant playground monitor looking over everything we said or did, ready to shake a finger and send us to the principal's office if we did anything even slightly out of line.
Some of what I see in this thread kinda invokes images of a "nanny state", where people seem to want an experience where they never see/hear anything they find offensive, from anyone, ever... I dont' know if that's exactly what's being requested by some, but it comes across that way. It kinda reminds me of a co-worker whom is quick to try and shush anyone who says anything they don't like, or otherwise disagree with, including some really petty, unimportant things, because they're completely intolerant of any opinion other than their own. Fortunately, they don't get away with it.
I say start everyone as a blank slate, and give them enough rope to hang themselves with. Include a /block and /report function and that's it. In a discrete, non cross-server environment, player reputation will take care of the rest. Those with a penchant for being unruly idiots will burn through their rope fast enough on their own, either by incurring too many legitimate /reports, and/or by being /blocked by so many players that they, as I said above, weed themselves out.
Any desire to moderate the community beyond that just seems excessive, to me. I'd like to think none of us are fragile glass figurines that will shatter under the slightest "offense" by someone saying something we don't like. I'd like to think we won't have to behave as such.
Very well put, and I have to agree with you 100% :)
Lets hope this posts correctly. Sorry for being such a ditz.
ZeroGravitas said:Koreno said:OK, I really hate it when when this topic comes up and people start talking about censorship and freedom of speech. Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom of Speech without consequences. In life, you should expect that if you walk into a pre-school and start spewing obsenities you will be asked to leave. You cant expect to walk into a funeral and start shouting about your views on the deceased and not be told to leave. You cant walk up to just anyone and say just anything you want to them now matter what.
Yes you can say whatever you want to say. But that is not to say that there will not be any consequences for doing so. Also, just so you know. Harassment is punishable. And by law, speech, both spoken and written, can be included in harassment.
So all the devs need to do is make rules against harassment and what you say and how you say it can be considered for taking action.
All I have to say is Dont be a jerk and you have nothing to worry about. If you want to speak you nonsense, get out of my funeral, get out of my kids pre-school, and go make a blog to express your "freedom of speech".
I understand what you are saying, but in an American legal sense freedon of speech doesn't technically exist in our participation in a product we are liscencing from VR. The Terms of Use of MMOs always make it clear that developer can boot us from it anytime, for any reason they choose.
That too. I am in the US as well. My point was that you cant just say whatever you want whenever you want. In most countries that have "freedom of speech", there can be legal consequences for the things we say. We should all be mindful of that.