Kalgore said:Or people can grow some skin and ignore people. /ignore is an amazing feature.
As for thinking that the community will shun players you are dreaming. It might shun low geared average players. but if a fully raid geared tank that is the best player in his class is a giant jerk is looking for a group or guild they will accept him in about 2 seconds. I speak from experaince on this issue.
Most people cry about anything that breaks the community feel or immersion. That means you need to take the good with the bad just like in real life your gaming experaince will have Mean rude bullies thats part of the game just like its part of life. It hasnt hurt EVE EQ or EQ2 and it wont hurt Pantheon
Well said :)
Kalgore said:Or people can grow some skin and ignore people. /ignore is an amazing feature.
As for thinking that the community will shun players you are dreaming. It might shun low geared average players. but if a fully raid geared tank that is the best player in his class is a giant jerk is looking for a group or guild they will accept him in about 2 seconds. I speak from experaince on this issue.
Most people cry about anything that breaks the community feel or immersion. That means you need to take the good with the bad just like in real life your gaming experaince will have Mean rude bullies thats part of the game just like its part of life. It hasnt hurt EVE EQ or EQ2 and it wont hurt Pantheon
Agree with everything but the part about keeping a jerk just because he's good and or geared. Booted many a jackass that was great at the game. The thing is the next best guy is effectively the same. Only a guild of idiots would let a jackass stay when there is an alternative. There is always an alternative. Never once played a game where there was only one guy available to do something.
I realize there are guilds that will take these fools but most wont. By and large the community will sort it out.
Sabot said:Kalgore said:Or people can grow some skin and ignore people. /ignore is an amazing feature.
As for thinking that the community will shun players you are dreaming. It might shun low geared average players. but if a fully raid geared tank that is the best player in his class is a giant jerk is looking for a group or guild they will accept him in about 2 seconds. I speak from experaince on this issue.
Most people cry about anything that breaks the community feel or immersion. That means you need to take the good with the bad just like in real life your gaming experaince will have Mean rude bullies thats part of the game just like its part of life. It hasnt hurt EVE EQ or EQ2 and it wont hurt Pantheon
Agree with everything but the part about keeping a jerk just because he's good and or geared. Booted many a jackass that was great at the game. The thing is the next best guy is effectively the same. Only a guild of idiots would let a jackass stay when there is an alternative. There is always an alternative. Never once played a game where there was only one guy available to do something.
I realize there are guilds that will take these fools but most wont. By and large the community will sort it out.
Once when I played EQ2 I found out about a funeral procession the enemy faction was going to have. Several hundard Qeyno players showed up and were slowly walking from one zone end to the other. I gathered a 4x of my most hard core raiders. and waited until they got to a good zerg point and we destroyed them for a long time. the whole time they kept zerging my 4x raid we racked up thousands of kills before a GM zoned in and froze the zone. 2 weeks later a qeyno guild that was part of the massacare lost there MT and offered to replace all my spells and offered me a lot of play to betray freeport and switch factions so i could MT for them.
If you are one of the best raid tanks on the server or the best healer you will never be homeless raid guilds are to competetive for that.
Feyshtey said:While I agree that there's a line that should not be crossed, I think perma-bans for people guilty of basically just being rude is way over the top. When did we decide that no one can ever be offended? When did we become so thin-skinned and incapable of just ignoring jerks? I can totally see why you would never wantt o interact with a person that does those kinds of things again. /Ignore accomplishes that. Screaming that you want no one to ever hear something you dont like is just... (forgive the irony of this statement in its context) ... childish.
I think there is a big difference between being rude, and using racial slurs, sexual harrassment, and the like. While I agree that simply being rude is something anyone should learn to just walk off, there is still a line that should not be crossed, and if crossed, should deserve repercussions.
We agree in your question "When did we decide that no one can ever be offended?" - but I also offer, why is it ok for internet anonymity to be insulation for deliberately commenting on a persons skin color, sexual preference, or religious affiliation? Does that give those people a free pass? I don't agree with the hand holding of the sensitive, but neither do I agree with the hand holding of the malicious.
In a forum, or a game that's free to play, I believe that argument can be said to "police" it yourself and suck it up. But when it comes to something i'm paying for, I'm paying to enjoy my experience. That includes paying for moderators and GM's to enforce their own EULA.
As far as the OP's example, I agree both that the commentor should have known better than to say anything on a public channel, and that those that responded should be held accountable for their words. In the place of a punch in the face, which someone would have received if they ridiculed a friend of mine that died from cancer, I'd want at least some kind of consequence. /Ignore doesn't cut it.
I mean really. We all rail against kids these days not learning the lessons we learned growing up, but at the same time rail against censorship. When I grew up, I learned that talking s**t equals a school yard fight. They're not learning that the words they say have consequences. I don't want censorship. I want consequences.
XX
Tralyan said:Feyshtey said:While I agree that there's a line that should not be crossed, I think perma-bans for people guilty of basically just being rude is way over the top. When did we decide that no one can ever be offended? When did we become so thin-skinned and incapable of just ignoring jerks? I can totally see why you would never wantt o interact with a person that does those kinds of things again. /Ignore accomplishes that. Screaming that you want no one to ever hear something you dont like is just... (forgive the irony of this statement in its context) ... childish.
I think there is a big difference between being rude, and using racial slurs, sexual harrassment, and the like. While I agree that simply being rude is something anyone should learn to just walk off, there is still a line that should not be crossed, and if crossed, should deserve repercussions.
We agree in your question "When did we decide that no one can ever be offended?" - but I also offer, why is it ok for internet anonymity to be insulation for deliberately commenting on a persons skin color, sexual preference, or religious affiliation? Does that give those people a free pass? I don't agree with the hand holding of the sensitive, but neither do I agree with the hand holding of the malicious.
In a forum, or a game that's free to play, I believe that argument can be said to "police" it yourself and suck it up. But when it comes to something i'm paying for, I'm paying to enjoy my experience. That includes paying for moderators and GM's to enforce their own EULA.
As far as the OP's example, I agree both that the commentor should have known better than to say anything on a public channel, and that those that responded should be held accountable for their words. In the place of a punch in the face, which someone would have received if they ridiculed a friend of mine that died from cancer, I'd want at least some kind of consequence. /Ignore doesn't cut it.
I mean really. We all rail against kids these days not learning the lessons we learned growing up, but at the same time rail against censorship. When I grew up, I learned that talking s**t equals a school yard fight. They're not learning that the words they say have consequences. I don't want censorship. I want consequences.
XX
Thats why I love PVP. Thats the only way to police the community if you are an ass to people you get PVP griefed
Kalgore said:Tralyan said:Feyshtey said:While I agree that there's a line that should not be crossed, I think perma-bans for people guilty of basically just being rude is way over the top. When did we decide that no one can ever be offended? When did we become so thin-skinned and incapable of just ignoring jerks? I can totally see why you would never wantt o interact with a person that does those kinds of things again. /Ignore accomplishes that. Screaming that you want no one to ever hear something you dont like is just... (forgive the irony of this statement in its context) ... childish.
I think there is a big difference between being rude, and using racial slurs, sexual harrassment, and the like. While I agree that simply being rude is something anyone should learn to just walk off, there is still a line that should not be crossed, and if crossed, should deserve repercussions.
We agree in your question "When did we decide that no one can ever be offended?" - but I also offer, why is it ok for internet anonymity to be insulation for deliberately commenting on a persons skin color, sexual preference, or religious affiliation? Does that give those people a free pass? I don't agree with the hand holding of the sensitive, but neither do I agree with the hand holding of the malicious.
In a forum, or a game that's free to play, I believe that argument can be said to "police" it yourself and suck it up. But when it comes to something i'm paying for, I'm paying to enjoy my experience. That includes paying for moderators and GM's to enforce their own EULA.
As far as the OP's example, I agree both that the commentor should have known better than to say anything on a public channel, and that those that responded should be held accountable for their words. In the place of a punch in the face, which someone would have received if they ridiculed a friend of mine that died from cancer, I'd want at least some kind of consequence. /Ignore doesn't cut it.
I mean really. We all rail against kids these days not learning the lessons we learned growing up, but at the same time rail against censorship. When I grew up, I learned that talking s**t equals a school yard fight. They're not learning that the words they say have consequences. I don't want censorship. I want consequences.
XX
Thats why I love PVP. Thats the only way to police the community if you are an ass to people you get PVP griefed
I agree. That's also why I love PvP, but in the place of PvP I'd like active moderators.
If a female player continuously gets harrassed by Llegolass the halfing druid, asking for nudes and "favors", do people here honestly don't think Llegolass deserves consequences other than a simple /ignore?
If David posts on a game forum, someone finds out through some kind of IP tracking or hacking of some kind that David is from Middle Eastern descent and begins harrassing David with racial slurs, bigotry, and threats, ya'll honestly don't think that person should be given the ban hammer?
I'm not talking about Kalgor calling me a carebear pansy a$$ flower. I'm not talking about someone making fun of my characters name or saying I look like a sissy in my purple pants. I'm talking about malicious, personal, and unwarranted attacks that if done in the real world would come with consequences. Zewtastic's example is, I think, on the line. I'm more on the camp of saying that person shoulda just kept that information to themselves - however I'm also on the camp that, barring being able to knock someone's teeth out, something should've been done to at least curtail that kind of treatment from fellow paying players.
Tralyan said:Kalgore said:Tralyan said:Feyshtey said:While I agree that there's a line that should not be crossed, I think perma-bans for people guilty of basically just being rude is way over the top. When did we decide that no one can ever be offended? When did we become so thin-skinned and incapable of just ignoring jerks? I can totally see why you would never wantt o interact with a person that does those kinds of things again. /Ignore accomplishes that. Screaming that you want no one to ever hear something you dont like is just... (forgive the irony of this statement in its context) ... childish.
I think there is a big difference between being rude, and using racial slurs, sexual harrassment, and the like. While I agree that simply being rude is something anyone should learn to just walk off, there is still a line that should not be crossed, and if crossed, should deserve repercussions.
We agree in your question "When did we decide that no one can ever be offended?" - but I also offer, why is it ok for internet anonymity to be insulation for deliberately commenting on a persons skin color, sexual preference, or religious affiliation? Does that give those people a free pass? I don't agree with the hand holding of the sensitive, but neither do I agree with the hand holding of the malicious.
In a forum, or a game that's free to play, I believe that argument can be said to "police" it yourself and suck it up. But when it comes to something i'm paying for, I'm paying to enjoy my experience. That includes paying for moderators and GM's to enforce their own EULA.
As far as the OP's example, I agree both that the commentor should have known better than to say anything on a public channel, and that those that responded should be held accountable for their words. In the place of a punch in the face, which someone would have received if they ridiculed a friend of mine that died from cancer, I'd want at least some kind of consequence. /Ignore doesn't cut it.
I mean really. We all rail against kids these days not learning the lessons we learned growing up, but at the same time rail against censorship. When I grew up, I learned that talking s**t equals a school yard fight. They're not learning that the words they say have consequences. I don't want censorship. I want consequences.
XX
Thats why I love PVP. Thats the only way to police the community if you are an ass to people you get PVP griefed
I agree. That's also why I love PvP, but in the place of PvP I'd like active moderators.
If a female player continuously gets harrassed by Llegolass the halfing druid, asking for nudes and "favors", do people here honestly don't think Llegolass deserves consequences other than a simple /ignore?
If David posts on a game forum, someone finds out through some kind of IP tracking or hacking of some kind that David is from Middle Eastern descent and begins harrassing David with racial slurs, bigotry, and threats, ya'll honestly don't think that person should be given the ban hammer?
I'm not talking about Kalgor calling me a carebear pansy a$$ flower. I'm not talking about someone making fun of my characters name or saying I look like a sissy in my purple pants. I'm talking about malicious, personal, and unwarranted attacks that if done in the real world would come with consequences. Zewtastic's example is, I think, on the line. I'm more on the camp of saying that person shoulda just kept that information to themselves - however I'm also on the camp that, barring being able to knock someone's teeth out, something should've been done to at least curtail that kind of treatment from fellow paying players.
Yes I beiive the /ignore should be the only tool in the game for avoiding people spewing out Crap. The more GMs have to police stupid stuff the less time they have to look at real issues. /Ignore fixes the issue for everyone offended by anything without wasting resources better spent some place else. Below is the simple way to deal with it
Dave " oh come on baby give me those nudes or else"
Female /ignore
Problem solved 1 minute
Now the Gm mandated way
Dave "Oh baby come on give me those nudes sexy or else"
Female /report
Dave "lets go baby why dont you call me" this goes on for 45 minutes until a GM has time to check into it which means he isnt looking for the cheating highelf speed warping in zone 4
Plus /ignore works for policing because if dave is on 100000 players ignore list no one ever sees when Dave is looking for a group.
Kalgore said:Tralyan said:Kalgore said:Tralyan said:Feyshtey said:While I agree that there's a line that should not be crossed, I think perma-bans for people guilty of basically just being rude is way over the top. When did we decide that no one can ever be offended? When did we become so thin-skinned and incapable of just ignoring jerks? I can totally see why you would never wantt o interact with a person that does those kinds of things again. /Ignore accomplishes that. Screaming that you want no one to ever hear something you dont like is just... (forgive the irony of this statement in its context) ... childish.
I think there is a big difference between being rude, and using racial slurs, sexual harrassment, and the like. While I agree that simply being rude is something anyone should learn to just walk off, there is still a line that should not be crossed, and if crossed, should deserve repercussions.
We agree in your question "When did we decide that no one can ever be offended?" - but I also offer, why is it ok for internet anonymity to be insulation for deliberately commenting on a persons skin color, sexual preference, or religious affiliation? Does that give those people a free pass? I don't agree with the hand holding of the sensitive, but neither do I agree with the hand holding of the malicious.
In a forum, or a game that's free to play, I believe that argument can be said to "police" it yourself and suck it up. But when it comes to something i'm paying for, I'm paying to enjoy my experience. That includes paying for moderators and GM's to enforce their own EULA.
As far as the OP's example, I agree both that the commentor should have known better than to say anything on a public channel, and that those that responded should be held accountable for their words. In the place of a punch in the face, which someone would have received if they ridiculed a friend of mine that died from cancer, I'd want at least some kind of consequence. /Ignore doesn't cut it.
I mean really. We all rail against kids these days not learning the lessons we learned growing up, but at the same time rail against censorship. When I grew up, I learned that talking s**t equals a school yard fight. They're not learning that the words they say have consequences. I don't want censorship. I want consequences.
XX
Thats why I love PVP. Thats the only way to police the community if you are an ass to people you get PVP griefed
I agree. That's also why I love PvP, but in the place of PvP I'd like active moderators.
If a female player continuously gets harrassed by Llegolass the halfing druid, asking for nudes and "favors", do people here honestly don't think Llegolass deserves consequences other than a simple /ignore?
If David posts on a game forum, someone finds out through some kind of IP tracking or hacking of some kind that David is from Middle Eastern descent and begins harrassing David with racial slurs, bigotry, and threats, ya'll honestly don't think that person should be given the ban hammer?
I'm not talking about Kalgor calling me a carebear pansy a$$ flower. I'm not talking about someone making fun of my characters name or saying I look like a sissy in my purple pants. I'm talking about malicious, personal, and unwarranted attacks that if done in the real world would come with consequences. Zewtastic's example is, I think, on the line. I'm more on the camp of saying that person shoulda just kept that information to themselves - however I'm also on the camp that, barring being able to knock someone's teeth out, something should've been done to at least curtail that kind of treatment from fellow paying players.
Yes I beiive the /ignore should be the only tool in the game for avoiding people spewing out Crap. The more GMs have to police stupid stuff the less time they have to look at real issues. /Ignore fixes the issue for everyone offended by anything without wasting resources better spent some place else. Below is the simple way to deal with it
Dave " oh come on baby give me those nudes or else"
Female /ignore
Problem solved 1 minute
Now the Gm mandated way
Dave "Oh baby come on give me those nudes sexy or else"
Female /report
Dave "lets go baby why dont you call me" this goes on for 45 minutes until a GM has time to check into it which means he isnt looking for the cheating highelf speed warping in zone 4
Plus /ignore works for policing because if dave is on 100000 players ignore list no one ever sees when Dave is looking for a group.
Our viewpoints are different, and that's ok. You think that the /ignore is sufficient and should appease the female player that is getting harassed. I think that appeasement isn't enough. To me it's not about appeasing the victim, but punishing the perpetrator. Don't act like an idiot if you can't accept the consequences of doing so. Being put on ignore isn't a consequence.
I also view sexual harassment and bigotry in any form as important an issue as catching someone exploiting a bug in a game.
Let's tackle this from another angle. Forums. Specifically these forums.
I'm willing to bet we can all agree that if somebody came on these forums and proceeds to use racial slurs or engage in some kind of harrassment, Kilsin would be quick to drop the hammer in some way or another. I think we can also agree that this would be a perfectly reasonable action to take. Why should that consideration not also be brought into the game we're here to discuss?
Tralyan said:Let's tackle this from another angle. Forums. Specifically these forums.
I'm willing to bet we can all agree that if somebody came on these forums and proceeds to use racial slurs or engage in some kind of harrassment, Kilsin would be quick to drop the hammer in some way or another. I think we can also agree that this would be a perfectly reasonable action to take. Why should that consideration not also be brought into the game we're here to discuss?
100 percent agree but its story time
Back when EQ2 launched they also launched an official forums. Unofficial forums also launched but those died off quick. the main reason was because up until 2006 the forums were lightly moderated. People could freely say most of what they wanted and only in the extreme did the community manager get involved. That all changed in 2006 when SOE appointed Brenlo to overseer of all SOE forums. He quickly decided that the forums needed to be G rated and moderated that’s all fine and good until certain things happened. The forums became super care bear any disagreement with another member and the thread was deleted and locked. Most threads criticizing SOE for anything disappeared. People were banned for the official reason of excessive negativity.
At about this time EQ2flames arose and took the forums by storm thousands of players abandoned the official forums and used EQ2 flames. The Admin LFG quickly became a powerful figure and was even able to talk with EQ2 devs and give input on what the site members asked for. This gave SOE valuable insight into the god’s honest truth of players as well as a place for players to talk without being banned for excessive negativity. All these quickly turned south when massive allegations about SOE employees, GMS and DEVS helped guilds with Raid loot Strats as well as other things (an Entire guild was moved off test something that wasn’t allowed ) Everything in the official forums was deleted anytime it was attempted to be spoken about. Eq2 Flames helped expose the cheating. While nothing changed players had the knowledge of what happened. It did allow the players to know what was going down in the world they helped keep alive for years
Using censorship to deliver results on forums and in game can have a desired effect it can also lead to excessive censorship and that can kill a game as easy as Lazy DEVS.
EVE has had a steady population and has been a money maker for years and all they have is a /ignore. Stealing scamming verbal abuse is allowed the GM do not get invovled unless its an exploit. and tens of thousands of players have learned to live with it and use /ignore on one of the most complex MMO ever designed
First off, as Kilsin stated, this community shouldn't have too much trouble with puttin respeck on our names. My time spent in EQ and VG has been much more pleasant with global chat channels, and players just in general, than it has with WoW and Rift. This community is just more mature.
As Vandraad said, there are some topics that should just not be discussed in a global channel in an MMO. Why would anyone talk about personal matters to anyone other than close friends?? And I'm not saying they were 'asking for it', I'm saying that it's nobody's business.
With this being said, as someone mentioned, Pantheon should really limit their use of global channels. Possibly have no global channels at all. Among the benefits that this would lend to immersion and yadda yadda, it would help curtail any unsavory discussions and/or hurt feelings.
The /ignore function should /ignore account-wide. If you ignore a player they shouldn't be able to log on to a different character and begin talking to you again. And there were some other great ideas in this thread of how the /ignore feature should work.
/IGNORE should be the only method of dealing with people who say something offensive to you. If they use racial slurs or whatever, then just /ignore them. If everything I have stated before this sentence was acted upon and then when a player has offended you, you ignored them the problem would be solved.
BUT if a player goes beyond this and goes to true measures to harass you. If after you ignore them, they find other ways to get to you THEN should they face possible further repercussions and possibly banishment.
edit. typo last sentence; THEN they should face possible...
NoobieDoo said:First off, as Kilsin stated, this community shouldn't have too much trouble with puttin respeck on our names. My time spent in EQ and VG has been much more pleasant with global chat channels, and players just in general, than it has with WoW and Rift. This community is just more mature.
As Vandraad said, there are some topics that should just not be discussed in a global channel in an MMO. Why would anyone talk about personal matters to anyone other than close friends?? And I'm not saying they were 'asking for it', I'm saying that it's nobody's business.
With this being said, as someone mentioned, Pantheon should really limit their use of global channels. Possibly have no global channels at all. Among the benefits that this would lend to immersion and yadda yadda, it would help curtail any unsavory discussions and/or hurt feelings.
The /ignore function should /ignore account-wide. If you ignore a player they shouldn't be able to log on to a different character and begin talking to you again. And there were some other great ideas in this thread of how the /ignore feature should work.
/IGNORE should be the only method of dealing with people who say something offensive to you. If they use racial slurs or whatever, then just /ignore them. If everything I have stated before this sentence was acted upon and then when a player has offended you, you ignored them the problem would be solved.
BUT if a player goes beyond this and goes to true measures to harass you. If after you ignore them, they find other ways to get to you THEN should they face possible further repercussions and possibly banishment.
100 percent agree with the last part.
I would hate to lose global chat channels just because sometimes you can have some amazingly fun conversations. But I do understand ditching them would solve some stuff.
@Kalgor and @Noobie
First off, I want to say I think this is a great discussion. It's discussions like this and the way in which they're handled that I don't see these issues ever being a problem in Pantheon.
I totally agree that too much censorship is a bad thing, and for all of the reasons you mentioned. The way the dev team has handle it so far, I think, is commendable. They've allowed criticism, even not-so-constructive criticism, whether it be towards themselves, the game, or other people. Criticism helps ideas evolve, and I believe the Dev team here realizes that. I also believe that they haven't really had a reason to punish anyone (read: Mature crowd), but that they wouldn't hesitate to do so if it was warranted.
If that can be translated into the game, I'd be perfectly happy with that, and I don't personally see how it would be a bad thing if it was.
When it comes to the players policing themselves, I agree with pretty much every thing people have said. Contested mobs, ninja-looters, bad attitude, raids, the economy, all of that. However, personally, I believe that there are moments when somebody should step in. And to me it's not so much because I don't think we as a group can't handle it, as much as I just don't like seeing people be unpunished when they deserve it. Everything has a consequence, and I simply don't like giving a free pass on certain things.
I am a 6 foot tall, straight, white male with a corporate job. Basically, the luckiest group of SoB's on the planet. Someone being "PC" towards me has never been an issue, and never will be. Doors are opened to me, and those that have been closed, I closed them myself by being an idiot. I take responsibility for the fact that the unfortunate things that have happened to me, have happened as a consequence of my own actions. When I see folks get away with behavior that would otherwise come with consequences, and aren't held to a standard in which they have to take responsibility for those actions, I inwardly seethe. That's including both a RL and an MMO setting.
As far as EVE goes, I also use that particular MMO in many arguments for many things MMO related, including an argument about players policing themselves - but that goes back to the PvP point, and I don't really see it applying quite as much to Pantheon or non-PvP games.
=EDIT= if /Ignore were account wide, I could possibly get behind that as an alternative. I still wish there was a better way to put a person on blast, though. If Kalgore calls me a whiskey drinking, potato flinging, lazy irishman (all true), and I /Ignore him, maybe we should also have a board in towns where we can say things like, "Hey, Kalgore is a turd. Look out". But that's a whole other topic, and liable to open a whole other can of worms. Nobody wants to moderate that board.
Kalgore said:NoobieDoo said:I would hate to lose global chat channels just because sometimes you can have some amazingly fun conversations. But I do understand ditching them would solve some stuff.
Yeah, I don't 100% know how I feel about not having global channels either. It has been mentioned and I can see the reasoning. I guess I agree with it because I don't use any global chats really. I'm usually in my group chat or guild chat or local chat and typically don't bother with global chats. Though I do like global channels such as class (bard) channels.
Tralyan said:@Kalgor and @Noobie
First off, I want to say I think this is a great discussion. It's discussions like this and the way in which they're handled that I don't see these issues ever being a problem in Pantheon.
I totally agree that too much censorship is a bad thing, and for all of the reasons you mentioned. The way the dev team has handle it so far, I think, is commendable. They've allowed criticism, even not-so-constructive criticism, whether it be towards themselves, the game, or other people. Criticism helps ideas evolve, and I believe the Dev team here realizes that. I also believe that they haven't really had a reason to punish anyone (read: Mature crowd), but that they wouldn't hesitate to do so if it was warranted.
If that can be translated into the game, I'd be perfectly happy with that, and I don't personally see how it would be a bad thing if it was.
When it comes to the players policing themselves, I agree with pretty much every thing people have said. Contested mobs, ninja-looters, bad attitude, raids, the economy, all of that. However, personally, I believe that there are moments when somebody should step in. And to me it's not so much because I don't think we as a group can't handle it, as much as I just don't like seeing people be unpunished when they deserve it. Everything has a consequence, and I simply don't like giving a free pass on certain things.
I am a 6 foot tall, straight, white male with a corporate job. Basically, the luckiest group of SoB's on the planet. Someone being "PC" towards me has never been an issue, and never will be. Doors are opened to me, and those that have been closed, I closed them myself by being an idiot. I take responsibility for the fact that the unfortunate things that have happened to me, have happened as a consequence of my own actions. When I see folks get away with behavior that would otherwise come with consequences, and aren't held to a standard in which they have to take responsibility for those actions, I inwardly seethe. That's including both a RL and an MMO setting.
As far as EVE goes, I also use that particular MMO in many arguments for many things MMO related, including an argument about players policing themselves - but that goes back to the PvP point, and I don't really see it applying quite as much to Pantheon or non-PvP games.
=EDIT= if /Ignore were account wide, I could possibly get behind that as an alternative. I still wish there was a better way to put a person on blast, though. If Kalgore calls me a whiskey drinking, potato flinging, lazy irishman (all true), and I /Ignore him, maybe we should also have a board in towns where we can say things like, "Hey, Kalgore is a turd. Look out". But that's a whole other topic, and liable to open a whole other can of worms. Nobody wants to moderate that board.
Oh I agree this has been a great discussion. Having lived through the SOE forum banhammer days I am always worried about over censorship. They can start out fine and but its easy to slip it seems. J
/Ignore should be account wide I never understood why it wasnt. Like I said earlier if dave is on 100000 /ignore list no one will ever see him ask for help and he either quits or makes a new account and learns, which seems like punishment enough I feel.
Tralyan said:@Kalgor and @Noobie
First off, I want to say I think this is a great discussion. It's discussions like this and the way in which they're handled that I don't see these issues ever being a problem in Pantheon.
I totally agree that too much censorship is a bad thing, and for all of the reasons you mentioned. The way the dev team has handle it so far, I think, is commendable. They've allowed criticism, even not-so-constructive criticism, whether it be towards themselves, the game, or other people. Criticism helps ideas evolve, and I believe the Dev team here realizes that. I also believe that they haven't really had a reason to punish anyone (read: Mature crowd), but that they wouldn't hesitate to do so if it was warranted.
If that can be translated into the game, I'd be perfectly happy with that, and I don't personally see how it would be a bad thing if it was.
When it comes to the players policing themselves, I agree with pretty much every thing people have said. Contested mobs, ninja-looters, bad attitude, raids, the economy, all of that. However, personally, I believe that there are moments when somebody should step in. And to me it's not so much because I don't think we as a group can't handle it, as much as I just don't like seeing people be unpunished when they deserve it. Everything has a consequence, and I simply don't like giving a free pass on certain things.
I am a 6 foot tall, straight, white male with a corporate job. Basically, the luckiest group of SoB's on the planet. Someone being "PC" towards me has never been an issue, and never will be. Doors are opened to me, and those that have been closed, I closed them myself by being an idiot. I take responsibility for the fact that the unfortunate things that have happened to me, have happened as a consequence of my own actions. When I see folks get away with behavior that would otherwise come with consequences, and aren't held to a standard in which they have to take responsibility for those actions, I inwardly seethe. That's including both a RL and an MMO setting.
As far as EVE goes, I also use that particular MMO in many arguments for many things MMO related, including an argument about players policing themselves - but that goes back to the PvP point, and I don't really see it applying quite as much to Pantheon or non-PvP games.
=EDIT= if /Ignore were account wide, I could possibly get behind that as an alternative. I still wish there was a better way to put a person on blast, though. If Kalgore calls me a whiskey drinking, potato flinging, lazy irishman (all true), and I /Ignore him, maybe we should also have a board in towns where we can say things like, "Hey, Kalgore is a turd. Look out". But that's a whole other topic, and liable to open a whole other can of worms. Nobody wants to moderate that board.
Kalgore said:Tralyan said:@Kalgor and @Noobie
Oh I agree this has been a great discussion. Having lived through the SOE forum banhammer days I am always worried about over censorship. They can start out fine and but its easy to slip it seems. J
/Ignore should be account wide I never understood why it wasnt. Like I said earlier if dave is on 100000 /ignore list no one will ever see him ask for help and he either quits or makes a new account and learns, which seems like punishment enough I feel.
Feyshtey said:@Vandraad
I hate to say this, but that attitude is not a hell of a lot different than the trolls and asshats we're talking about. If you dont care to participate in the conversation, don't. Ignore the person if it bothers you. But there's no reason to be a jerk. It's this exact lack of empathy that's completely screwing society. Not just the internet, but society.
I believe that you struck the nail very cleanly on the head mate
Hokanu said:Feyshtey said:@Vandraad
I hate to say this, but that attitude is not a hell of a lot different than the trolls and asshats we're talking about. If you dont care to participate in the conversation, don't. Ignore the person if it bothers you. But there's no reason to be a jerk. It's this exact lack of empathy that's completely screwing society. Not just the internet, but society.I believe that you struck the nail very cleanly on the head mate
I'm going to disagree here. Vandraad saying there's an appropriate time and a place to share personal issues isn't a response lacking empathy. With that said, should people be overtly rude - no, but it's not the internet that would cause this to occur. You wouldn't go into a mall, movie theater, the office at work (insert crowded public space) and shout your dirty laundry to everyone or complete strangers - or if you did, you would meet a wide variety of responses - just like you would in game in global chat. The closest example you could even bring up would be a scenario like AA or NA in which you would speak to strangers, and even then, you would receive some very mixed, often blunt, responses to whatever you were sharing.
Rather, most people would rather talk to their closest friends, family, teacher, coach, counselor etc. about it in private or in small group settings, so, his response of saying take it to /tells would not be inappropriate.
Further, before the response comes back saying, well, what if they don't have friends in RL and the game is the only outlet or even their last outlet? Again, same would apply - most would speak to those on the friends list, and, let's say in the rare scenario that it is someone that has no friends in RL or in game and they /shout in Global chat about it as they have no other choice/outlet. Well, that's where it is up to the community to police the global chat. It's not the first heckler that's the worst - it's the rest of the community that joins in and /agrees or adds to it. The community needs to step up and say that's not acceptable. I stand by my original post - if Pantheon's community is like that and just piles it on a person, similar to what AA is apparently - then it's already failed. As Kilsin stated, I don't think that will be the case as the community does appear more mature here. But, I think it's two-fold with the players necessity to rely on others, so they will want to maintain a positive reputation for something other than fear of punishment.
I'll share my personal example from EQ. It often did have hecklers, but EQ also had players that would step up in Shout/OOC or the tells where the person being rude would be called out. And, I have multiple times seen the person being rude apologizing. I also saw people improve their attitudes/behaviors/actions in EQ based off the community. I also did see people who didn't and they earned their negative reputation and or /ban. Somewhat unrelated, but I used principles I learned in EQ about groups and management strategies in the workplace today - I just wanted to emphasize a point a game can be a learning tool. So, again, foster an environment that creates the social bonds, and your reputation will matter except potentially those who are in the top 1% raiding guilds, who earn a different reputation all of their own.
What I will agree with is that people should strive to be respectful to others, but there's no EULA that can cover what that means to everyone. So, it is my belief the first response that should occur is the person who feels offended to send a /tell to the offender, just to let them know to begin with. Sometimes, people don't even realize they're being rude or offensive. It is my personal experience that if you challenge the person directly, it is generally more effective than running behind closed doors to tell on them which only further reinforces their original thought process. And, if at that point, they continue to spout off on it screaming obscenities, racial slurs through tells or shouts, etc., then, by all means, report them.
Also - /agreed Dullahan - hopefully there won't be a global chat, and thanks Amsai - I knew we mainly thought along the same lines.
Dullahan said:A game without global chat that is also highly dependent on cooperative play will curb a lot of these problems.
Trolls want an audience to inflict their dribble on or it takes a lot of the fun out of trolling. With global chat, it means that the people whom you offend will likely have no direct consequence on your play as they are probably of different levels and in different places. When limited to local chat, what you say may directly impact your ability for find a group and progress in the game.
These chat problems and trolling in general also seem to scale in direct proportion to the players ability to solo. The more players need each other, the more reputation will matter. I'm not saying it will entirely abolish chat trolls, but the more players depend on each other, the less common it will be.
Agreed!
Raidan said:Hokanu said:Feyshtey said:@Vandraad
I hate to say this, but that attitude is not a hell of a lot different than the trolls and asshats we're talking about. If you dont care to participate in the conversation, don't. Ignore the person if it bothers you. But there's no reason to be a jerk. It's this exact lack of empathy that's completely screwing society. Not just the internet, but society.I believe that you struck the nail very cleanly on the head mate
Further, before the response comes back saying, well, what if they don't have friends in RL and the game is the only outlet or even their last outlet? Again, same would apply - most would speak to those on the friends list, and, let's say in the rare scenario that it is someone that has no friends in RL or in game and they /shout in Global chat about it as they have no other choice/outlet. Well, that's where it is up to the community to police the global chat. It's not the first heckler that's the worst - it's the rest of the community that joins in and /agrees or adds to it. The community needs to step up and say that's not acceptable. I stand by my original post - if Pantheon's community is like that and just piles it on a person, similar to what AA is apparently - then it's already failed. As Kilsin stated, I don't think that will be the case as the community does appear more mature here. But, I think it's two-fold with the players necessity to rely on others, so they will want to maintain a positive reputation for something other than fear of punishment.
Absolutely mate, this is the way we all want the scenario to play out! We humans will all have different ways of looking at thsi sort of thing, some say dont bother me with your personal garbage and some say i'm going to give this person a kind reply or /tell
I feel like it is best we dont de-rail this thread, apologies if i have contributed to that, I know and work with people who are on both sides of this spectum so i was engaging with more emotion than anything else. I dont think the direction of the discussion between raidan and i is going to be any use to the thread and we are of the same opinion with regards to a solution being community driven with the option to report if needed.