NoobieDoo said:Gawd said:2 way account wide ignore, i like this... However lets take it even further. how about all accounts registered to the same user? or credit card? that way we cant have a troll account and then have a play nice account!
I understand where you are going with this but this may not be a great course of action. Sometimes people buy accounts for other people with their credit card or register them under their name. Maybe a gift to a friend. Maybe you bought your girlfriend/boyfriend an account/game or possibly even your kids. This would then possibly ban them all from playing. Maybe one of those people got banned and then you had your account banned or the other way around, maybe you were banned and then their accounts were banned.
Once you go beyond a person's personal account it gets hard to track who owns what.
I agree with this. I think single account ignore would be enough. Plus then you are mixing an ingame system with a payment system opening holes for even more hacking attempts.
Joshue said:Kalgore said:Im going to be the biggest Jerk in the game gOING TO MAKE EQ2 Kalgore look like a saint. And still be in a top tier raiding guild and have no problems findin groups.
CHALLANGE ACCEPTED
Top guild? You'll never be in my guild Kalgore. Enjoy WoW.
That makes a lot of sense because only trolls play WoW?? Your very comment would mark you as an abusive player to some people and worthy of /report in some eyes
tehtawd said:it's not game makers place to police "feelings" getting hurt because people chose to share their personal lives in a place that it doesn't belong.
If a person attacks me for being gay on this game, I don’t want to just put them on ignore. You see, I’m a Tank. I want to protect people from harm. I want there to be a tool to make sure this player doesn’t get a chance to bully or harm anyone else. One bad experience can do a lot more damage than you think.
-Todd
To be clear I am wanting more than a ignore button. I didn't intend to arm the players with nukes. Sorry for any misinterpretation coming from my post. The ability to communicate to somebody , vent frustrations, receive empathy, and gain reassurance the situation will be handled appropriately would be nice.
Sent via mobile
-Todd
edit: seems the disagreement is over semantics as much as anything. so my post feels moot
Kalgore said:Joshue said:Kalgore said:Im going to be the biggest Jerk in the game gOING TO MAKE EQ2 Kalgore look like a saint. And still be in a top tier raiding guild and have no problems findin groups.
CHALLANGE ACCEPTED
Top guild? You'll never be in my guild Kalgore. Enjoy WoW.
That makes a lot of sense because only trolls play WoW?? Your very comment would mark you as an abusive player to some people and worthy of /report in some eyes
Nah, just messing with you K. You are popcorn-worthy in every sense. Really glad you're here.
NoobieDoo said:
There are a few reasons why /ignore & report should be the only method/tool we have to deal with offensive players.
First, I strongly believe in giving people a second chance. Not so a bad person can prove they can be good, but for a good person to prove they are not bad. Sometimes good people have a bad day, are stressed, or are outside of their normal self and say something they shouldn't or lash out when normally they wouldn't. A person such as this should never use a racial slur but just like I should never tell you how to react to something (growing a thicker skin) you can't tell a person how to always react to a situation (never use racial slurs). Both should just happen imo but people should ultimately be given a second chance as well.
Second, unless someone is harassing you via teamspeak or ventrillo or some other VoiP then they are most likely harassing you in game via text and text loses context. A player who you thought said something offensive to you may have been misunderstood, read the wrong way, possibly even a language barrier, etc etc. This isn't our place as players to judge these actions. If you claim someone offended you and they claim they didn't intend to offend you should you have a tool that punishes that player? Should you have the power to punish another player at the possibility of a misunderstanding??
Most importantly, as players it is not our job to police others, that's the POLICE's job, so if you have a bad experience with a player you should not have a tool to "make sure this player doesn't get a chance to bully or harm anyone else". What you should have is an /ignore and report button which ignores the offensive playm to the GM's (police). Your feelings ARE important and I agree that an offensive player needs to be dealt with so that they don't harass anybody else but it's not our place to handle these offensive players. But you have to know that a tool that you are considering could be abused easily and should not exist.
Noobie, I must protest to the bolded statement. I think that yes, absolutely I can expect someone to be able to stop themselves from using a racial slur in a hateful way.
The thing about having thicker skin is it's a completely subjective expectation. What you may not find offensive, I might. What I may not find offensive, you might. It's not about thicker skin, it's about how each and every one of us grew up. It's how we were raised, and what we've been through that decides what offends us. We can all, to an extent, control how we react to offensive statements. We can not control our past and what caused us to find those things offensive.
On the other hand, I feel like you can 100% control yourself when it comes to typing hateful racial and bigoted comments and hitting the enter key.
Tralyan said:
Noobie, I must protest to the bolded statement. I think that yes, absolutely I can expect someone to be able to stop themselves from using a racial slur in a hateful way.
The thing about having thicker skin is it's a completely subjective expectation. What you may not find offensive, I might. What I may not find offensive, you might. It's not about thicker skin, it's about how each and every one of us grew up. It's how we were raised, and what we've been through that decides what offends us. We can all, to an extent, control how we react to offensive statements. We can not control our past and what caused us to find those things offensive.
On the other hand, I feel like you can 100% control yourself when it comes to typing hateful racial and bigoted comments and hitting the enter key.
Why?
Just because someone uses a racial slur doesnt mean that they are a racist. It's just as likely (and often more likely) that they used the one phrase they knew would elicit the greatest reaction. It's not about the meaning of the word, it's about the reaction to the word. And in a heated argument people do lose their heads and go for maximum impact.
Should that person be treated as though they are honestly an active racist? Or should people "grow thicker skin" and refuse to allow the phrase to elicit the reaction that it was intended to elicit ? When you allow this person to dictate your reaction by deliberately using words that will force it, you provide them exactly what they desired. They diverted the conversation from whatever it was to something wholy unrelated (race), and you helped.
And then there's the flip side of that, where no matter what a person says on a myriad of topics there's a growing tactic of labeling the person a racist to discredit them and dismiss whatever argument they may have, no matter how logical or defensible.
All of this comes full circle here : Banning people for speech is stupid. Its the antithesis of a free society. So would be forcing you to sit thru speech you find offensive, and you should always have the right to walk away. In an MMO, "walking away" is /ignore.
So, if you hear something offensive, be an adult and "walk away".
Feyshtey said:Tralyan said:
Noobie, I must protest to the bolded statement. I think that yes, absolutely I can expect someone to be able to stop themselves from using a racial slur in a hateful way.
The thing about having thicker skin is it's a completely subjective expectation. What you may not find offensive, I might. What I may not find offensive, you might. It's not about thicker skin, it's about how each and every one of us grew up. It's how we were raised, and what we've been through that decides what offends us. We can all, to an extent, control how we react to offensive statements. We can not control our past and what caused us to find those things offensive.
On the other hand, I feel like you can 100% control yourself when it comes to typing hateful racial and bigoted comments and hitting the enter key.
Why?
Just because someone uses a racial slur doesnt mean that they are a racist. It's just as likely (and often more likely) that they used the one phrase they knew would illicit the greatest reaction. It's not about the meaning of the word, it's about the reaction to the word. And in a heated argument people do lose their heads and go for maximum impact.
Should that person be treated as though they are honestly an active racist? Or should people "grow thicker skin" and refuse to allow the phrase to illicit the reaction that it was intended to illicit? When you allow this person to dictate your reaction by deliberately using words that will force it, you provide them exactly what they desired. They diverted the conversation from whatever it was to something wholy unrelated (race), and you helped.
And then there's the flip side of that, where no matter what a person says on a myriad of topics there's a growing tactic of labeling the person a racist to discredit them and dismiss whatever argument they may have, no matter how logical or defensible.
All of this comes full circle here : Banning people for speech is stupid. Its the antithesis of a free society. So would be forcing you to sit thru speech you find offensive, and you should always have the right to walk away. In an MMO, "walking away" is /ignore.
So, if you hear something offensive, be an adult and "walk away".
^^^^^ this is spot on great post
Just because someone uses a racial slur doesnt mean that they are a racist. It's just as likely (and often more likely) that they used the one phrase they knew would elicit the greatest reaction. It's not about the meaning of the word, it's about the reaction to the word. And in a heated argument people do lose their heads and go for maximum impact.
Should that person be treated as though they are honestly an active racist?
flec said:
Lol. YES, that person should absolutely be treated as though they are honestly an active racist because they obviously are. "A person that uses racial slurs in an attempt to ellicit the greatest negative reaction" is pretty much the exact definition of a racist in an online environment where interaction is limited to mostly text. I am guessing you are trying to suggest that they are merely a troll that says things they do not truely believe in an attempt to upset people, but the act still makes them an active racist. Just like a person that steals something they do not actually want just to upset someone is still a thief.
That said, if they implement a strong ignore feature like what has been described in this thread then I would be content. The only reason reporting and banning has been needed in other games is because ignore has been very poorly implemented and people can just keep logging off, making a new char with a very similar name and logging back on to continue their harassment.
How do you treat an active racist when you meet one in the real world? Do you tell them they are an idiot and walk away? Or do you punch them in the mouth? Which reaction would demonstrate that you are the more responsible person?
On the topic of harrassment, that's a very different area in my mind. Someone just continuously saying stupid **** in global chat can and should be ignored. And it might be racism, or it might be that idiot we've all seen that asks how to do every single solitary thing in the game rather than making the slightest effort to figure it out on their own. But if the person is actively harrassing an individual, or actively circumventing systems that allow you to escape their stupidity they should have action taken on them by the moderators, and the punishment should be scaled according to their behavior.
Feyshtey said:Tralyan said:
Noobie, I must protest to the bolded statement. I think that yes, absolutely I can expect someone to be able to stop themselves from using a racial slur in a hateful way.
The thing about having thicker skin is it's a completely subjective expectation. What you may not find offensive, I might. What I may not find offensive, you might. It's not about thicker skin, it's about how each and every one of us grew up. It's how we were raised, and what we've been through that decides what offends us. We can all, to an extent, control how we react to offensive statements. We can not control our past and what caused us to find those things offensive.
On the other hand, I feel like you can 100% control yourself when it comes to typing hateful racial and bigoted comments and hitting the enter key.
Why?
Just because someone uses a racial slur doesnt mean that they are a racist. It's just as likely (and often more likely) that they used the one phrase they knew would elicit the greatest reaction. It's not about the meaning of the word, it's about the reaction to the word. And in a heated argument people do lose their heads and go for maximum impact.
Should that person be treated as though they are honestly an active racist? Or should people "grow thicker skin" and refuse to allow the phrase to elicit the reaction that it was intended to elicit ? When you allow this person to dictate your reaction by deliberately using words that will force it, you provide them exactly what they desired. They diverted the conversation from whatever it was to something wholy unrelated (race), and you helped.
And then there's the flip side of that, where no matter what a person says on a myriad of topics there's a growing tactic of labeling the person a racist to discredit them and dismiss whatever argument they may have, no matter how logical or defensible.
All of this comes full circle here : Banning people for speech is stupid. Its the antithesis of a free society. So would be forcing you to sit thru speech you find offensive, and you should always have the right to walk away. In an MMO, "walking away" is /ignore.
So, if you hear something offensive, be an adult and "walk away".
Oh no, Fey, not the free speech argument. This is just another can of worms entirely.
There's a quote "Freedom of speech is the right to shout "Theatre!" in a crowded fire."
Another quote "Freedom of speech is your right to say whatever you want, and my right to knock you out for it"
Banning people for speech is most certainly not stupid. That's what gives owners of a store to reserve the right to serve or not serve whoever they please. One can even make the argument that making certain acts of speech a criminal offense, such as yelling "fire" in a crowded place, or inciting violence. As much as you have the right to say what you want to say to me, I and anyone else has the right to claim redress for your actions.
I feel like your argument is giving the perpetrator too much power. By placing the blame on the one that gets offended and not the one that causes offense. By saying it's an african american's fault for being offended because someone uses a racial slur, and not the fault of the one using the racial slur. It sounds like you're saying that the "victim", the one that's offended, is the one giving the offendee power simply by being offended. I think that's an upsetting trend, and allowing more and more people the ability to not be held accountable for the fact that they can't be adults and control what comes out of their mouths. It's even worse when it's on-line or via text. The argument can be said that in the heat of the moment, when in a vocal interaction, that you may say things you don't mean. But wen it comes to actively typing out words and taking the time and thought to say what you want to say in writing, but not being held accountable for that very conscious act? We've really become so childish that we can't even type correctly because we're in the "heat of the moment?"
And to be clear, I'm talking about worst case scenarios here. I'm talking about the kinds of things that I wouldn't feel comfortable typing here even after making it clear it's just an example. I'm not talking about calling me a potato eating irishman.
I agree that people get offended easily. I just think that placing the blame on them and not the one that has control over their words is a step in the wrong direction - and I certainly don't agree that "words shouldn't have so much power" (not your quote - someone elses). That's naive. Words start wars. Words have arguably the most power. That's the argument of someone that said something they should not have said, knows it, but refuses to admit they were wrong to do so.
And yes, when you say racist things, you are, in fact, racist.
A little late to the discussion, sorry if this has been said... But for me its not about the hate (although I could do without), its not about he cursing, its not about most anything that is said... To me, its about the fact that I absolutely can not stand having any public channel turned on in most zones in other games. Welcome to orgimmar where there is a CONSTANT spam in trade chat "My ass is an [immovable object]." And a constant stream of childish jokes that follow or call that person a morn, where living celebrities die every 30 minutes because lol you believed me enough to google it, and where you can litterally fill an ignore list in less than an hour... Uggg, I hate hate hate hate hate hate public channels intended for one purpose being abused because children need attention.
Tralyan said:Another quote "Freedom of speech is your right to say whatever you want, and my right to knock you out for it"
That's assault, and its rightfully illegal. Short of telling you I'm going to physically harm you or through my speech putting you in direct physical harm, no matter what else I say you have no right to touch me. Period. End of story. If you do you have commited a crime punishable by law.
Tralyan said:Banning people for speech is most certainly not stupid. That's what gives owners of a store to reserve the right to serve or not serve whoever they please. One can even make the argument that making certain acts of speech a criminal offense, such as yelling "fire" in a crowded place, or inciting violence. As much as you have the right to say what you want to say to me, I and anyone else has the right to claim redress for your actions.
You're absolutely right that the owner/operator of any business has the right to eject or otherwise refuse to serve anyone. And by extension, so do any MMO's. They have a right to protect the integrity of the game and the rights of their users. In an MMO they can provide tools for the users to protect themselves, and methods to deal with anyone who abuses those tools. In a regular brick and mortar business it's a little different. You can't create a bubble around an ****** and prevent anyone from hearing their crap, so the alternative is to throw them out. That's perfectly reasonable because you want to maintain a space that is pleasant for the customers you want to keep. And that's not an option out of the realm of possibility in an MMO either. If a person is continuously an ****** to muliple people, the option to boot them should absolutely exist.
[Edit: That same business has the right to decide to do absolutely nothing. And by extension, so does every MMO...]
However, that doesnt mean that if anyone ever says a word , a time, they shoould be banned, which is precisely what the some here have proposed. It also doesnt mean that it's unreasonable to expect that people use the tools given them to prevent their interaction with a person they choose not to intereact with. If you have the means to avoid the ****** and you choose not to use it, and you choose to continue feeding the trolls, expect the trolls to come back for feeding.
Tralyan said:I feel like your argument is giving the perpetrator too much power. By placing the blame on the one that gets offended and not the one that causes offense. By saying it's an african american's fault for being offended because someone uses a racial slur, and not the fault of the one using the racial slur. It sounds like you're saying that the "victim", the one that's offended, is the one giving the offendee power simply by being offended.
I am saying that an offensive word only has power to offend if you allow yourself to be offended. It doesnt matter if it's racial, or cultural, or vulgar, or otherwise. Particulary in the case of people using those words not because they are actually racial but simply because they know it'll piss you off. Be pissed, be offended. That's your right. But if you refuse to engage with the ****** you take any power he might have weilded over you. That's your choice.
Tralyan said:And yes, when you say racist things, you are, in fact, racist.
That's like saying that if you say a stupid thing, you're stupid. Every single person here has said stupid things. It does not make every single person here stupid. If your only reason for using a racial slur is to exploit another persons reaction to it makes you an ***hole. But it doesn't necessarily make you a racist.
I dont think we have to worry about people getting banned willy nilly lol, if you have a /report option and because you use it moderators look into an issue you are effected by and decide for whatever reason it is not worthy of any further action then they decide on it and off you go about your business. Alternatively they decide that it is a large issue and pursue a resolution or if in some extreme circumstances they may decide to ban.
yes but you cant call dorfs stubby guys :p
Feyshtey said
That's assault, and its rightfully illegal. Short of telling you I'm going to physically harm you or through my speech putting you in direct physical harm, no matter what else I say you have no right to touch me. Period. End of story. If you do you have commited a crime punishable by law.
You're absolutely right that the owner/operator of any business has the right to eject or otherwise refuse to serve anyone. And by extension, so do any MMO's. They have a right to protect the integrity of the game and the rights of their users. In an MMO they can provide tools for the users to protect themselves, and methods to deal with anyone who abuses those tools. In a regular brick and mortar business it's a little different. You can't create a bubble around an ****** and prevent anyone from hearing their crap, so the alternative is to throw them out. That's perfectly reasonable because you want to maintain a space that is pleasant for the customers you want to keep. And that's not an option out of the realm of possibility in an MMO either. If a person is continuously an ****** to muliple people, the option to boot them should absolutely exist.[Edit: That same business has the right to decide to do absolutely nothing. And by extension, so does every MMO...]
However, that doesnt mean that if anyone ever says a word , a time, they shoould be banned, which is precisely what the some here have proposed. It also doesnt mean that it's unreasonable to expect that people use the tools given them to prevent their interaction with a person they choose not to intereact with. If you have the means to avoid the ****** and you choose not to use it, and you choose to continue feeding the trolls, expect the trolls to come back for feeding.
I am saying that an offensive word only has power to offend if you allow yourself to be offended. It doesnt matter if it's racial, or cultural, or vulgar, or otherwise. Particulary in the case of people using those words not because they are actually racial but simply because they know it'll piss you off. Be pissed, be offended. That's your right. But if you refuse to engage with the ****** you take any power he might have weilded over you. That's your choice.
a couple of points. 1) among the principles of constitutional law exists the idea of 'fighting words,' which appears to specifically apply to aggregious personal verbal attacks.
2) one would have to be rather well in control of his emotions to never allow himself to be offended. he would need to extraordinarily humble to not defend an unjust attack on his reputation. in fact if even most people were capable of this level of control, the trolls would not exist. furthermore, words often lead to actions (inciting speech.) thus while i am often not personally offended by speech, i will report all racist/hate speech. this is because others see that speech. scapegoating is very powerful, communities that embrace this verbal dehumanization of a population produce individuals who have no issue commiting heinous crimes against those people.
3) businesses actually have some responsibility to restrict 'free speech.' an easy example is if they allow a hostile workplace to exist, they get sued (and lose) along with the harasser.
4) reporting is actually a tool where one can assert themselves without engaging. you may disagree, without it, or with the expectation that reporting the individual will have no real actions is likely to increase engagement. particularly if reporting a player immediately ignores them. conversation over, harassment over.
ultimately, how far one should be allowed go before getting banned is simply based on opinion. but i would be suprised if racist/hate speech is not treated harshly, not because we are too weak to ignore it, but because we decide what kind of a community we wish to belong to, and if it were not punished far more people would decide to move to another community then would if it were tolerated.
i don't think it is weakness to say, 'i don't want to be part of a toxic community. i don't want to endure this behavior. i don't want to support it.' i actually think it is strength. most of us would, if at the mall and confronted by some racist comment not directed at us, not comment, not risk. it is why we honor king jr, and parks, and robinson, and chavez, and so many others who had the courage to stand up. it takes far less courage then they showed to report someone, sure. but if we cannot stand up when there is no risk, what chance have we to stand up when there is?
alephen said:a couple of points. 1) among the principles of constitutional law exists the idea of 'fighting words,' which appears to specifically apply to aggregious personal verbal attacks.
2) one would have to be rather well in control of his emotions to never allow himself to be offended. he would need to extraordinarily humble to not defend an unjust attack on his reputation. in fact if even most people were capable of this level of control, the trolls would not exist. furthermore, words often lead to actions (inciting speech.) thus while i am often not personally offended by speech, i will report all racist/hate speech. this is because others see that speech. scapegoating is very powerful, communities that embrace this verbal dehumanization of a population produce individuals who have no issue commiting heinous crimes against those people.
3) businesses actually have some responsibility to restrict 'free speech.' an easy example is if they allow a hostile workplace to exist, they get sued (and lose) along with the harasser.
4) reporting is actually a tool where one can assert themselves without engaging. you may disagree, without it, or with the expectation that reporting the individual will have no real actions is likely to increase engagement. particularly if reporting a player immediately ignores them. conversation over, harassment over.
ultimately, how far one should be allowed go before getting banned is simply based on opinion. but i would be suprised if racist/hate speech is not treated harshly, not because we are too weak to ignore it, but because we decide what kind of a community we wish to belong to, and if it were not punished far more people would decide to move to another community then would if it were tolerated.
i don't think it is weakness to say, 'i don't want to be part of a toxic community. i don't want to endure this behavior. i don't want to support it.' i actually think it is strength. most of us would, if at the mall and confronted by some racist comment not directed at us, not comment, not risk. it is why we honor king jr, and parks, and robinson, and chavez, and so many others who had the courage to stand up. it takes far less courage then they showed to report someone, sure. but if we cannot stand up when there is no risk, what chance have we to stand up when there is?
Beautifully said! I would hope the opposite though regarding bumping into someone @ the mall acting in an abusive manner, then again we dont allow weapons to be carried in Australia so i probably feel more confident that most people in the US trying to break up a scuffle because of this. big thumbs up to your comments, nicely said mate
Feyshtey said:Crazzie said:NO its not be an adult and walk away, that doesnt work anymore.
Be a person and respect others, and simply walk away.
.... I'm not really sure what you just said.
Well, lets first start by saying i have seen more adults create more harm, acts of crimes then most kids do. It seems to me the new standard is harassment to others. People gang up on others in communities then i have ever seen. If your not in the "in crowd" even as an adult your harassed.
We see parents saying to their children, dont harm others YET!!! they go around teaming up with other adults to harass others.
So who should we really learn from? our 5 year old.
Its no different in a game, then it is on your very own street block.