Yeah Darkboo and dungeons were terrible before the invention of the instance warping looking for group feature. Just because the genre has produced convenience features does not make them "better" from the perspective of game health.
In a similar fashion, I believe the people discussing their lack of time to play the bazaaring game are kind of missing the point. Searching for good deals on items is as much a part of the fantasy of an old school MMORPG as fighting, and to complain that such a part of the game is too tiresome seems hypocritical. Sure you may spend a day in Kingsreach checking the various merchant's inventories to find good stuff and that's all you do, but why is that a problem? Is there something wrong with existing in a more fleshed out world? Surely you will root out good deals, profit ventures, etc., complete them, and then get back to fighting?
An over-focus on removing the "tediousness" of haggling, travel, and player interdependence is precisely how we got to the modern state of mmos and is also precisely why most of us are here in the first place. I would caution people to think about that when evaluating their perspectives.
That said, the most interesting idea of the last day in this thread is without a doubt the consignment framework suggested by Sebbulba. While obviously any idea needs iteration and refinement, the idea of making it easy for merchants to bulk trade by having a way to display buy orders (perhaps "requirements contracts" is a more apropo term) is compelling. Add in varied regional taxes that vary from item to item and regional banks and you have a healthy economic skeleton players can fill out.
I agree with what I think is the spirit of Sebbulba's suggestion. It would be great to see some in game mechanic introduced to allow players who are interested in trading to be able to take part in it. I think the split amongst the community here has a lot to do with some people wanting to trade, haggle, and money-manage, while others prefer to steer clear of all of that. Allowing the two groups to splinter off from each other to some extent is probably good for the long term health of both groups. We see a similar thing with crafting, where not everyone has to take part in the system, but if you put in the work and time, then you can get the benefits from it.
As I have argued previously in this thread, we all want to cherry-pick our conveniences to best tailor to our ideal gaming experience. Trading is not inherently special when compared to other convenience gaming mechanics. Wanting a global AH does not put you in the "full-on convenience" group, it just means that you don't enjoy trading. If we want to make the argument of what's most realistic for a fantasy world, then travelers should be able to seek out a middleman and pay a cut for the convenience of not selling goods themselves. It should be advantageous for players to find their buyers directly by putting in the work, but I don't think this should be forced upon players as the only option.
In real life some people love the idea of going to flea markets and yard sales so they can haggle for prices because it's just fun for them. Other people avoid flea markets like the plague, because haggling for money (amongst other factors) turns them away. Ebay has not killed off flea markets as some may have thought it would, but that is what happened in MMORPGs. Why is that? Can it be avoided?
I am personally in favor of any mechanic that allows for convenience at a significant cost. I (personal opinion) want to be able to easily (convenience) off-load my 35 bronze axe haul onto a middleman (PC or NPC) for 50-60% of the market price, but also be able to sell my super axe of awesome myself for full value. If I were forced to spend half my time trading for fear of being economically crippled, I may not be willing to play this game, because for me I would rather be with my friends gaming it up in a way that I enjoy.
I don't entirely understand that reasoning. I didn't really trade much in EQ, but thought it was great fun to see people spamming in the EQ tunnel. Trading is never a necessity in these games. Crafting is not either. No one would ever be crippled by not having an auction house. They could just choose to play the game and sell their items to vendors or to players when convenient. No one ever has to buy anything from the auction house either. It is entirely possible to get everything yourself.
UnknownQuantity said:I don't entirely understand that reasoning. I didn't really trade much in EQ, but thought it was great fun to see people spamming in the EQ tunnel. Trading is never a necessity in these games. Crafting is not either. No one would ever be crippled by not having an auction house. They could just choose to play the game and sell their items to vendors or to players when convenient. No one ever has to buy anything from the auction house either. It is entirely possible to get everything yourself.
Yeah, and when I needed to trade it was often spending a day in EC once every couple months or more. Often far less time when only needing an item or two. I don't have the same amount of time that I had back then but it wouldn't break my back to need to spend time watching auction chat in a zone. I'd just plan it for days I have other things to do around the house or work I can do while occasionally glancing at the feed.
I personally just look forward to the website that parses the auction channel in real time and compiles a list of items with their average price and when they were last sold, because that's probably roughly what we have in store without any kind of Bazaar/Auction House.
Like maps and DPS parsing, it's just naive to think that removing something like the Bazaar/Auction House will result in a trading experience comparable to EQ in 1999.
Trying to force localized trade in a modern video game is like trying to force localized trade in real life. That ship has sailed.
That sounds like the same argument against having not having maps or GPS in game.
I don't know how parsing is done, but I'd imagine if you don't have access to certain data via an in game script it would be pretty hard to do.
Even if you were able to parse the data it wouldn't be of much use. People would have sold x item before people could browse it on the website.
I don't think it would be as easy as you think and many people wouldn't want to use said software even if it was possible because it might have some type of virus or other malicious intent.
UnknownQuantity said:I don't know how parsing is done, but I'd imagine if you don't have access to certain data via an in game script it would be pretty hard to do.
Parsing is done with chat logs exported to a text file. You could also just have 3 characters in the world joined into the local auction channel and have a twitch livestream of their chat windows in real time. I'd donate money to their stream for such a cause.
UnknownQuantity said:Even if you were able to parse the data it wouldn't be of much use. People would have sold x item before people could browse it on the website.
http://ahungry.com/eqauctions-live
Real-time Project 1999 Blue auctions from the EC tunnel.
UnknownQuantity said:I don't think it would be as easy as you think and many people wouldn't want to use said software even if it was possible because it might have some type of virus or other malicious intent.
I mean, 99% of top end players in every MMO ever made download log parsing software. That's millions of people.
Everyone in my guild in EQ has it. Everyone in my guild in Vanguard had it. Even casuals in EQ2 have it. Everyone in WoW has it.
Darkboo said:I love how all the AH haters describe how great the experience was sitting around for hours at a time selling and buying items in EQ... I wonder why they impimented the BAZZAR in EQ then if it was so great and everyone loved taking xtra time to sell items ... weird how they evolved the system if half of the people here claim its "perfection"
Yes, there are perhaps some who "loved taking xtra time to sell items"... I'm not one of them. And yes, I really enjoyed the Bazaar when it was first introduced. What you and so many on this forum seem to not get/understand is what effect a Bazaar/AH system has on the economy and longevity of the game. This isn't some ideal we're arguing for. We have case after case after case of "empirical evidence" of why a game should NOT add an AH. It is so weird to me to read so many posts of people championing the idea of challenge/difficulty, no smurfing, put your time in to get the items... and yet turn around and beg for convenience elsewhere. If you can't address how you would prevent the decay an AH brings, then what is there to discuss? You're not willing to listen to reason.
Jimmayus said:An over-focus on removing the "tediousness" of haggling, travel, and player interdependence is precisely how we got to the modern state of mmos and is also precisely why most of us are here in the first place. I would caution people to think about that when evaluating their perspectives.
This exactly. I'm all for simplified interfaces... but not for convenience in the game world. Everything that is added to expedite some game process should be heavily evaluated. So many of them seem like a good solution, and yet end up hurting the game in the long run.
I will still play Pantheon if these convenience are added. But I'm under no delusions as to how much they will hurt the longevity of the game either. The rest of you would do well to consider this if you want this game to last in a meaningful way for anything past a year or two.
I also forgot to mention that a significant amount of people will probably globalize trade through third party forums if it isn't easily done in game.
Why would I spam in chat channels if I can go to a fansite forum and post a trade for the entirety of the playerbase to see?
Liav said:Parsing is done with chat logs exported to a text file. You could also just have 3 characters in the world joined into the local auction channel and have a twitch livestream of their chat windows in real time. I'd donate money to their stream for such a cause.
...
I mean, 99% of top end players in every MMO ever made download log parsing software. That's millions of people.
Everyone in my guild in EQ has it. Everyone in my guild in Vanguard had it. Even casuals in EQ2 have it. Everyone in WoW has it.
How does this make you any better than those who use RMT? Is that what you're now advocating? I mean, if people are going to sell their accounts on the internet or gold for real money, might as well add it to the game, right?
Unbelievable.
If they can find a way to trade outside of the game I would say let them. That is the same stance I have on maps.
I don't think that website is to pretty to look at. I'm not sure how many people would use it.
If people want to create a message board or chat of some type outside of the game to trade things then that is OK as well IMO.
Archaen said:How does this make you any better than those who use RMT? Is that what you're now advocating? I mean, if people are going to sell their accounts on the internet or gold for real money, might as well add it to the game, right?
Unbelievable.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never mentioned RMT. I'm trying to make an effort to have a civil discussion on these forums for once.
I'm saying that I'm not going to waste 30 minutes running to another continent to check their auction offerings if there is a simple option for me to do so in real time.
UnknownQuantity said:If they can find a way to trade outside of the game I would say let them. That is the same stance I have on maps.
I don't think that website is to pretty to look at. I'm not sure how many people would use it.
If people want to create a message board or chat of some type outside of the game to trade things then that is OK as well IMO.
Pretty much everyone who buys things regularly from the EC tunnel uses that website. I'm sure it's well over half of the playerbase.
I like the way it looks, pretty intuitive to me.
UnknownQuantity said:If you like the website then you shouldn't have a problem with having no auction house in game I suppose.
You kind of missed the point. The point is that people are saying a lack of an auction house will result in a lack of globalized trade. I'm arguing that it won't result in a lack of globalized trade, so the entire purpose of it being excluded in the first place is null.
I'll make it work regardless of if an AH is included or not, I just think the arguments against its inclusion don't really conform to reality.
This will be my last post in this thread I guess, can't even post my opinions without getting attacked or people trying to make a pariah out of me. I'm happy to respond to well reasoned arguments but I'm not going to justify hostility with a reply. (This isn't aimed at UnknownQuantity)
Liav said:UnknownQuantity said:If you like the website then you shouldn't have a problem with having no auction house in game I suppose.
You kind of missed the point. The point is that people are saying a lack of an auction house will result in a lack of globalized trade. I'm arguing that it won't result in a lack of globalized trade, so the entire purpose of it being excluded in the first place is null.
I'll make it work regardless of it an AH is included or not, I just think the arguments against its inclusion don't really conform to reality.
That is not entirely true.
Some people will post on these message boards or chat, but not nearly as much as in a unified auction house that everyone uses in game. Some will find it to much of a bother. Some might be afraid of getting their computer infected with a virus. Knoweldge of these items will be kept outside of the game.
Liav said:Why would I spam in chat channels if I can go to a fansite forum and post a trade for the entirety of the playerbase to see?
Why would you spam chat channels, period?
- macrostart
\auc WTS Cloak of Baddass
\auc WTB Belt of Whoopass
- end-macro
Tap once on entering a new zone. It's not instant gratification, but it's effective. I have very very rarely sat in a localized market auctioning, and when I did it was only when I wanted to go thru a process of trading items I had for other things I could trade for other things I could trade for the item I wanted. Which I actually sometimes found an interesting mini-game.
[edit] I dont log into a fantasy game where I fight orcs and dragons for a sense of reality.
Liav is making a valid point on the reality of the situation. Just as with the maps/GPS issue that was brought up, one must take into consideration the way that people will actually play the game. If you don't provide in game maps, then you must acknowledge that a majority (not fact, just an estimate) of players will find maps externally and use them. If you don't provide any means for players to trade efficiently, then a portion of players will seek that functionality externally. The reality can be seen from emergant external gameplay of old school games.
None of this means that the developer has to kowtow to desired conveniences (as we have seen with the maps issue), but the emergent external conveniences MUST be taken into consideration in order to make an informed decision. If Pantheon is a carbon copy of EQ when it comes to trading, then I will seek out external websites for convenience because time spent spamming /auction is (to me) wasted time. I have accepted that the devs are going with old school no in-game maps and both laud and disagree with their decision. If the devs go the same route with trading, then I will just have two reasons to bring up external websites. If the devs feel that they should allow a willing subset of the Pantheon community to take part in pure old school play by having no trading conveniences, then that's their choice and we should encourage them to pursue their vision.
I'm under no illusion that there wont be people looking at maps on their second monitor, or going to a 3rd party parsing site that lists what people are auctioning. There's absolutely nothing to be done to prevent those things, and frankly I would think it a total waste of time to try. I am one who has spent significant time researching gear, quests and zones on 3rd party information sites. But building functionality into the game that precludes the need for a person to even try to find things is defeatest IMO.
Taking the same train of logic, do you like quests systems that make the little glowing tendril that stretches out in front of you to take you to exaclty the right place to complete the quest? Do you like systems that show on your minimap every quest objective? Would it be better if they just teleport you to the quest so you can kill one mob, and then teleport you back so you can complete it and get the reward? Or is having to go back to complete it too much as well, and you just get the reward the second the mob is dead? Do you not enjoy any level of puzzlement and intrigue, and would much prefer that you not ever be asked to think at all to accomplish anything in the game? Where is the line drawn between convenience to the level that a non-literate 1st grader can actually advance in the game and a game that's "too hard"?
Feyshtey said:...Where is the line drawn between convenience to the level that a non-literate 1st grader can actually advance in the game and a game that's "too hard"?
It is impossible to draw a line in the sand and say that this where too much convenience starts. This is a multi-faceted problem and every topic tips the scale. Instant travel, trading, gear repair, maps, and levelling spells/abilites are all intertwined in the slippery slope of convenience. Everyone wants a bit of some and less of another in a personal mix. If I could put together my own person game I would have no instant travel options whatsoever, but I would also like to have a heavily taxed auction house. I would imagine that everyone here would find that their personal preferences are a mixed bag of conveniences and inconveniences. Taking a hard stance on any topic based on convenience just halts progress, whereas discussing the pros and cons of middle-ground options can at least provide for interesting discussion.
I don't know if there is a hard line to be drawn, Feyshtey. Even so, I don't think there's a valid analogue to be made between the glowing tendrils for easy question completion, and mechanisms of player commerce. For instance, the Bazaar in EQ has a glowing tendril that leads you to the particular seller who's selling an item. I don't consider that to be analogous to the quest completion tendrils, either. Does that make the game easy? Should we have to walk uphill, both ways, in the snow to do something as trivial as finding a seller in the Bazaar?
This just sounds like a slippery slope fallacy to me. Very base-level game functions don't need to be made complicated. You could easily remove Hit Points from the UI and make players have to guess what their current HP is. Would that make Pantheon a better game? Is that even analogous to this situation, either?
I don't think there is one right answer. I think this issue needs to be analyzed independently of anything else. It's kind of pointless to reference external things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
What is gained by the exclusion of an Auction House? That is the main question here. I've already made my argument, and it's pretty simple. There are an abundance of ways to globalize trade outside of the game if an in-game way to do so is not provided, and players who care about efficient commerce will use them. Those who don't know or don't care will be disadvantaged by the higher burden of knowledge.
At the end of the day, I don't think Pantheon becomes a better game by fundamental mechanics being excluded and/or having to be referenced by third parties to progress.
What qualifies as fundamental to me?
Navigation, trade, engine/game options (intuitive and extensive in-game options menu as opposed to configuration file optimization, something a lot of developers fail on), combat mechanics, character statistics, inventory management, etc.
Edit: Ainadak beat me to my own reply.
Liav said:Archaen said:How does this make you any better than those who use RMT? Is that what you're now advocating? I mean, if people are going to sell their accounts on the internet or gold for real money, might as well add it to the game, right?
Unbelievable.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never mentioned RMT. I'm trying to make an effort to have a civil discussion on these forums for once.
I'm saying that I'm not going to waste 30 minutes running to another continent to check their auction offerings if there is a simple option for me to do so in real time.
I didn't... I asked how it makes you different? You said straight out you'd pay a 3rd party to more easily obtain in-game goods... isn't this what RMT essentially boils down to?
I just don't understand how you can advocate for less convenient levelling, but other things should be more convenient because you want them so. This is the same attitude that led to dungeon finder, raid finder, condoned RMT, etc. If I find grouping/raiding/tradeskills inconvenient then why should I have to do them? Shouldn't they be made more convenient? This question has been asked numerous times in this thread and completely ignored by those advocating for an AH. If you want to have a discussion, let's start there.
oneADseven said:Archaen said:This exactly. I'm all for simplified interfaces... but not for convenience in the game world. Everything that is added to expedite some game process should be heavily evaluated. So many of them seem like a good solution, and yet end up hurting the game in the long run.
I will still play Pantheon if these convenience are added. But I'm under no delusions as to how much they will hurt the longevity of the game either. The rest of you would do well to consider this if you want this game to last in a meaningful way for anything past a year or two.
Are you suggesting that adding an AH will literally ruin the lifespan of the game?
I am not only suggesting it, I'm saying there is ample evidence that it will. I agree many games use AH, and which of them do you wish to play? The same ideas behind the AH are what led to the conveniences in other areas of the game... easier levelling/soloing, group finders, decreased communication, easier travel, etc. I assume from your posts you played EQ way back when... adding the bazaar completely changed the economy and killed any significant trade interaction. And why if we're adding convenience for trading would we not add it for other aspects of the game? So if another person finds the dungeon finder more convenient, then why shouldn't it exist?
The evidence shows this kind of convenience is more than profitable for companies... of that there is no argument. But it also will push Pantheon to become just like every other MMO out there, effectively killing its spirit, though maybe not its bottom line. If this is the plan, then why commit the time to a game that will essentially be EQ2/WoW/FFXIV?
As to the FFXIV initial launch, it was much more than the retainer system that bonkered that game. That is not really a good example, not to mention that the retainer system is a bad idea to begin with. You mentioned not being able to find a particular item cause you had to go around and click on all of them. Ironically, you would find that a lot faster in EQ by just doing a shout. Any system that allows an afk player to stay online and interact with others should not be allowed. If we are to encourage non-afk grouping, then why not in all aspects of the game? If sociality and interaction is king, then why not want fewer conveniences and more communication?
Ainadak said:Feyshtey said:...Where is the line drawn between convenience to the level that a non-literate 1st grader can actually advance in the game and a game that's "too hard"?
It is impossible to draw a line in the sand and say that this where too much convenience starts. This is a multi-faceted problem and every topic tips the scale. Instant travel, trading, gear repair, maps, and levelling spells/abilites are all intertwined in the slippery slope of convenience. Everyone wants a bit of some and less of another in a personal mix. If I could put together my own person game I would have no instant travel options whatsoever, but I would also like to have a heavily taxed auction house. I would imagine that everyone here would find that their personal preferences are a mixed bag of conveniences and inconveniences. Taking a hard stance on any topic based on convenience just halts progress, whereas discussing the pros and cons of middle-ground options can at least provide for interesting discussion.
The point to drawing a line is to make sure you don't compromise the integrity of the game for the sake of appeasing those who don't accept the ramifications of doing so. Many of us feel that the original EQ got so much right... the minimalist approach is best. So if you ask for an AH... my response as a dev (though with better PR skills) would be "no". If you asked for more convenient travel that didn't require the interaction of players... the answer is "no". Essentially, use the interaction of players as your guiding principal for design. Shared effort through difficult and even tedious situations is better than self-gratification.