@Elrandir How did i "misrepresent" you exactly? You employed the same argument others have been employing for the past 96847 pages, only in an inverse manner; ie your particular example put light on said same concept, albeit from a different angle (ie the inverse. You 'used' a "really rusty sword" made to look into a "shiny" one)
Anyway.. thank you for replying, that's one :)
Also, i did understand what you're saying, i really did. Once again, with the danger of repeating myself, i am not so sure you've grasped my own thinking/the system's potential.
Right out of the bat:
- Different appearance does NOT, NOT equal "better" appearance (you used that word yourself). It does definitely NOT equal "even better"/"shinier". Different is just that, different. You are all so stuck at thinking this in such a superficial manner (my sincere apologies, am not trying to pick an argument), that you're missing the point. Different can be just that; different, humbler, toned down, or i dunno, RP-appropriate. NOT shinier. No one here is advocating for ANYTHING that devalues hard-earned raid gear. I cannot use simpler English to emphasise this further. Please cease employing the "bettah!!1111" argument. This is entirely UNrelated to ego contesting/ showcasing.
- The Pantheon team designs and implements gear. Gear. Not holiday one-day-off flowery dresses, my posts are about GEAR. So instantly, your second argument falls short as well, as there is no such worry, at all. I believe we are all more or less understanding of the thematic approach of this game and as such should really refrain from entering into arguments that are for all purposes null. Null. We are talking about re-using those very same designs those very same class/role specific weapons and armours will have.
- Lastly, about your "learning a lot about the other player". You still will. An inspect away, is all. A one-click affair. No one's out there to "hide" things from you Elrandir.. barring the odd psychotic/sociopathic individual, i am certain most will have other issues to contend with.
In said same light, and to stick with the crystalline sword example: Re-imagine it in the above terms please.. nothing looking better/devaluing the effort behind its acquisition, nothing thematically inappropriate/insulting to the game's lore or setting; and nothing hidden.
Of course, you will tell me "my preference" is to do away with it all just because. Granted, and respected. But once we finally agree to the fact that no argument other than personal preference (ie that's not an argument, that's subjectivity alone) has merit, may we even begin to consider the benefits for a moment? Because counter-effects we've already touched on, and if done right, there are NONE.
Benefits:
- A tertiary activity (you can't kill-kill-kill all day long, so anything 'extra' that still motivates you to remain online is a plus. Especially considering Patnheon's downtime mechanics
- A mechanic (wardrobe-ish..) that can have an exponential effect on everything:
i) Mob drops. Nothing fancy from random mob drops, but mob drops. One more incentive to "go back" to previous areas and/or (important) areas whose pacing has ..fallen.. a bit short.
ii) Crafting. Not now, budget. But with the system in place? A worthwhile future endeavour. Alchies make and sell dyes. Tailors make and sell cosmetic armour. Thematically appropriate, yes. Armorsmiths/weaponsmiths make and sell cosmetic weapons and armour. And so on.
iii) Economy. Some of this will be sold, some of it bought. An extra boost. Let's say Brad manages the impossible (no one has thus far) and the economy is PERFECT. No need for boost, ever. How about recycling? The money changing hands? The new players making a profit to compete with 5yr old players?
iv) Further incentive for everyone into RPing. It's a major atraction factor and i'm sure you know it. No, not the sole one, but it is a major one.
v) V-A-R-I-E-T-Y. The salt and pepper of life man. Variety. Work work work, and it leads into something. Detail detail detail and it makes the eterogenous homogenous. Personality. Differentiation, expression. People are usually about these things, and MMOs are just that. People. Otherwise, might as well stick to MOBAs. Kill kill kill (nothing extra/tertiary to do), so cu tomorrow.
So considering there are NO true downsides to this, are we really discarding all the above because what? Someone doesn't care for appearance slots? Why don't use them then :)
It's always about the how. In my mind. Extremes of pure white or black are at best used as markers, so we may define the inbetween :)
@Rachael I would read your reply to me once more and spend some time contemplating on what an image it portrays. Of yourself, not mine. Regardless, my thanks once more for contributing, much appreciated :)
Aenra said:@Rachael I would read your reply to me once more and spend some time contemplating on what an image it portrays. Of yourself, not mine. Regardless, my thanks once more for contributing, much appreciated :)
What that you seem like an angry person that some people don't agree with your opinion? or that I asked you to use the correct pronouns or perhaps gender neutral ones if you were unsure? All I see is you've been generally insulting to people and putting them down for not agreeing with you... how about you reread what you've posted to others...
I have, plenty of times in fact; when addressing multiple individuals at the same time i tend to read and reread, at the very least make sure my ideas come across :)
Are we going to derail this topic, get it locked, or could i perhaps PM you and explain? Assuming you wouldn't find that offending and/or reminiscent of an angry person as well? I would wish to allow the thread to remain on topic if you don't mind.
Please stay on topic, I won't close this, I will have to delete posts instead to clean it up and I don't want to have to do that, it is an interesting topic that I want to see continue in a mature fashion.
I am curious as to why there has to be "appearance gear" in the first place and not instead actually let players purchase these items from NPCs and let crafters make real clothing items, like shirts, pants, dresses, hats, jewellery, shoes, boots and let players take their combat armour off and put their formal or casual clothing on? Why does it have to be "appearance gear", Why can't it be real physical gear that has value and a place in the game?
Why does the armour, weapons, stats and buffs all have to stay magically hidden while displaying entirely different items for show but allowing the character gain a benefit from the hidden gear? I am trying to get my head around this line of thinking so I understand it better as I am not sure what the big deal is about having to take it off and put it back on again when you are in and out of combat, wouldn't that be more immersive and in the nature of RPing than pretending to be wearing something while actually wearing something you need to survive underneath?
Kilsin said:Appearance gear and weapons - Do you like being able to change your characters appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons, even if a few others have it too?
My response is: "I would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons, even if a few others have it too."
While appearance changes are needed in a F2P system.. I accept it, altho I dislike it. Gear is earnt generally. We should proud/excited by getting that armour piece- with it's unique graphic and effects... It's a trophy to your accomplishments like you said... and thats what your character should represent. If custom armour/effects are added or even just the abilitie to swap pieces, it kinda takes that away from that item feeling "special" to just "meh who cares".
I remember the old days we used to whisper one another on a raid item "/tell Wow! Look at the graphic on it!".. or you see someone stop and say "Where did you get that from?". If you add in appearance changes, no one will bother/notice as effects n' such will be common place. It provides more player interaction by not customising appearance/gear and it'll make all items in the game feel that little bit more unique.
Not every item has to be the most amazing looking item in the land....... it's unrealistic.
I get that :)
And obviously it is the central tenet of any themepark game, "earning" your gear. Our difference, if we left out the arguments and moved on to pure opinion, is that i am proud of my gear anyway and regardless. It doesn't have to look like a lit up xmas tree for me to feel better about it, and it definitely doesn't have to be in anyone's 'face' for me to feel accomplished and/or better about myself. I don't 'raid' so as to show off, or even hope for showing off. Got nothing to prove, nor am i in a postion where, indirectly, i could get satisfaction from someone gawking at me. That's not why i like raiding, that's not why i value gear, proggression, or accomplishing something difficult. If i got it, i got it for me. That's reason and justification enough. I don't get any kicks by my pixels showing as 'longer'. My actual size remains unchanged regardless of the virtual one. You know what changes? Two people having earned the same gear? Their personality. THAT's what i look for. And you don't see that by the lit up xmas tree, you see it by giving them (wardrobe) options. As a developer. Because it's an MMO..
Anyway, to each their own. Assuming a certain degree of patience is there, i have pretty much said all i could, so much to your satisfaction am sure, i will bother you no more. Promise! :)
(if it needs be said, no offense was meant to anyone here. I know there's a fine line between being honest and being offensive and my intent was to be honest. I prefer it when people know exactly what i think, and why. If taken otherwise, my apologies)
Kilsin said:I am curious as to why there has to be "appearance gear" in the first place a
If by appearance gear you mean like a Tuxedo set with no stats or what have you...yeah, I dont care if theyre in. Those are usually out of place, or seasonal, which are usually out of place. If the devs can manage to put in some setting appropriate "appearance gear" then so be it, I can see why a Warrior would look out of place fighting a dragon in a ballroom dress.
However, if by "appearance gear" you mean other combat gear I can put on an "appearance" tab, then obviously its because for the majority of the game we are out fighting/adventuring/etc ... we want to look at our character wearing GearA because we think it looks better than GearB for what ever reason. Both can be made by crafters or sold by vendors. Not sure what the angle was there but if its cash shop "appearance gear" then you are totally misunderstanding.
Why does the armour, weapons, stats and buffs all have to stay magically hidden while displaying entirely different items for show but allowing the character gain a benefit from the hidden gear?
For the same reason we dont go into a raid naked, it not very practical, its not just for show. Because sometimes end game BiS gear looks horrible and we prefer the gear we may or may not have worked equally as hard to get. Or maybe sometimes a player doesnt want to look ridiculous and/or menacing and prefers to have a more normal realistic appearance for HIS character?
Not saying this is what VS has in the works but some "crazy" players out there might think this type of epic:
... is ridiculous, inefficient and even laughable that any Warrior worth his chainmail would ever carry any of those monstrosities into combat. Someone might prefer something a little less absurd like:
Or maybe something in between, maybe they even want it the other way around. Doesnt make it less heroic, or epic. Seriously, there are like a million reasons why someone would want to have a different look, the real question on my mind is what is it to any of you?
Nimryl said:We should proud/excited by getting that armour piece- with it's unique graphic and effects... It's a trophy to your accomplishments like you said... and thats what your character should represent. If custom armour/effects are added or even just the abilitie to swap pieces, it kinda takes that away from that item feeling "special" to just "meh who cares".
Again, whats it to you? If YOU or YOUR characters main concern is to carry a status symbol then so be it. Do it. For the record, EVERY piece of gear my character will get is my/his accomplishment. I did it. I contributed, did what was needed, won the roll, what ever. What makes one of MY accomplishments better than the other to someone else? I find it hard to understand how MY item, on MY inventory, looking like another one of MY owned gear sets somehow takes away any of YOUR "feelings" towards an item. Either way it goes both ways. I dont know about you, but Id get a much better "feeling" of special when its not worn by almost every end game raider in the server. The less have it on "display", the more "special" it is.
I remember the old days we used to whisper one another on a raid item "/tell Wow! Look at the graphic on it!".. or you see someone stop and say "Where did you get that from?". If you add in appearance changes, no one will bother/notice as effects n' such will be common place. It provides more player interaction by not customising appearance/gear and it'll make all items in the game feel that little bit more unique.
Not every item has to be the most amazing looking item in the land....... it's unrealistic.
Ok sorry this is just getting ridiculous now. How can anyone possibly believe this minuscule occurence is more important than a players personal preference for his own character? First of all, youre assuming everyone will be hiding their shiny hard earned weapon, every time? Second, you talk like youll never see an epic rare being worn (by someone else, mind you) unless THEY are forced to have it displayed on THEIR character, for YOUR viewing pleasure. Seriously?
Kilsin said:Please stay on topic, I won't close this, I will have to delete posts instead to clean it up and I don't want to have to do that, it is an interesting topic that I want to see continue in a mature fashion.
I am curious as to why there has to be "appearance gear" in the first place and not instead actually let players purchase these items from NPCs and let crafters make real clothing items, like shirts, pants, dresses, hats, jewellery, shoes, boots and let players take their combat armour off and put their formal or casual clothing on? Why does it have to be "appearance gear", Why can't it be real physical gear that has value and a place in the game?
Why does the armour, weapons, stats and buffs all have to stay magically hidden while displaying entirely different items for show but allowing the character gain a benefit from the hidden gear? I am trying to get my head around this line of thinking so I understand it better as I am not sure what the big deal is about having to take it off and put it back on again when you are in and out of combat, wouldn't that be more immersive and in the nature of RPing than pretending to be wearing something while actually wearing something you need to survive underneath?
Honest question, did appearance gear affect you that adversely in VG as well? I'm not arguing that there has to be appearance gear, more that I just really really want it.
-I will inevitably not like every single armor skin as much as others. Being able to use the skins I want to make my character more aesthetically pleasing is desirable for me.
-Having the ability to reskin your armor goes a long way towards reducing homogenization of character appearances, otherwise we'll just all look the same in our best in slot gear.
-Immersion doesn't even factor into the conversation for me, personally, but immersion also isn't quite as important to me.
While I foresee that you will retort with "why can't you just take your normal armor off in the city and wear casual clothes" it still fundamentally avoids addressing the fact that I want to look aesthetically pleasing 24/7. That includes combat or any other activity.
Liav said:-Immersion doesn't even factor into the conversation for me, personally, but immersion also isn't quite as important to me.
Honestly I dont even get the immersion argument either, its not like it'd be some out of place piece of weapon or gear. It's all likely to be from some vendor, another player, dungeon, or random drop from within the world. Stats are meta, part of the game, not the lore. How is that any better at immersion than simply having it look different? If anything, saying you cant because 'the stats' is more immersion breaking than changing a weapon or armors appearance in a world of magic and dragons.
Kayo said:Liav said:-Immersion doesn't even factor into the conversation for me, personally, but immersion also isn't quite as important to me.
Honestly I dont even get the immersion argument either, its not like it'd be some out of place piece of weapon or gear. It's all likely to be from some vendor, another player, dungeon, or random drop from within the world. Stats are meta, part of the game, not the lore. How is that any better at immersion than simply having it look different? If anything, saying you cant because 'the stats' is more immersion breaking than changing a weapon or armors appearance in a world of magic and dragons.
Yeah, I suppose my #1 issue with the immersion arguments is, like you said, anything can generally be argued into existence or be dismissed as magic in a fantasy game. The worst case scenario is you have to suspend your disbelief, but that's not really hard to do when you're fighting dragons.
Liav said:Yeah, I suppose my #1 issue with the immersion arguments is, like you said, anything can generally be argued into existence or be dismissed as magic in a fantasy game. The worst case scenario is you have to suspend your disbelief, but that's not really hard to do when you're fighting dragons.
Here's a wiki that discusses the principles of immersive design:
The portion that's relevant to this discussion is down under the section on Characteristics.
The main point here is that this recurring argument of 'Anything can be explained away with magic' isn't really consistent with emmersive design at all. Sure, things 'could' be explained away that way, but it actually requires an appropriately thematic explanation, not simply 'it's this way because: magic.'
I understand and appreciate people's desire to want to customize their own appearance. But there's another subset of the population that wants a game world that is internally consistant. Unfortunately, the two sides of this argument are mutually exclusive. Your previous suggestion that people be able to adjust their own personal UI's to display their characters the way they prefer is the only solution that would really bridge this gap. Unfortunately, I doubt most people who want to customize their characters would be satisfied with this option. I'm guessing they would want to impose their method of self-expression on the subset of the population who would prefer to 'see things as they are.' But I could be wrong about that.
Actually, after giving it a little more thought--a simple sort of opt in/out option for viewing people as is or as their custom skins would probably keep both populations happy.
Elrandir said:The main point here is that this recurring argument of 'Anything can be explained away with magic' isn't really consistent with emmersive design at all. Sure, things 'could' be explained away that way, but it actually requires an appropriately thematic explanation, not simply 'it's this way because: magic.'
2 points id like to make.
1) The point being made in your link has more to do with something extreme like letting players fly X-Wings and explain it away as some magic portal some mage opened. There is nothing immersion breaking about seeing a level 50 Warrior swinging away at demons using a not so flashy sword (some might even consider that more immersive). The confusing part about the "stats" thing is you have to right-click on someone elses character, click on inspect, look through a window that basically breaks down your characters "power" numerically, by gear, highlight the icon for the "modded" armor or weapon before thinking "Wait a minute! Thats not really the (item) hes holding. /immersionbreak." Maybe if you saw a guy with a Lightsaber id agree, or even a Mage in plate, but different items of the same class? Items that same character might have even worn before?
2) There are some things one can explained away with magic. My character can shoot fireballs because "magic". Illusion magic isnt exactly foreign to fantasy lore. Id even say its fairly common. I dont know that much about the lore of Pantheon, its "magic source" or what have you, but unless there is some metaphysical reason within the world I dont see how it can be such a terrible stretch. Honestly, I dont see why it even needs to be explained anymore than any other game system. A piece of gears affect on the players performance is part of the external game system outside of anything anyone should even be considering part of the immersion, and its 'visual' isnt something that isnt possible, or even common, in the world.
Elrandir said:Actually, after giving it a little more thought--a simple sort of opt in/out option for viewing people as is or as their custom skins would probably keep both populations happy.
Wouldnt mind it myself. Id honestly do it more for me than to show things off. You dont want to have the pleasure of viewing my character in all his fabulous glory its your loss :P
Kayo said:
Nimryl said:We should proud/excited by getting that armour piece- with it's unique graphic and effects... It's a trophy to your accomplishments like you said... and thats what your character should represent. If custom armour/effects are added or even just the abilitie to swap pieces, it kinda takes that away from that item feeling "special" to just "meh who cares".
Again, whats it to you? If YOU or YOUR characters main concern is to carry a status symbol then so be it. Do it. For the record, EVERY piece of gear my character will get is my/his accomplishment. I did it. I contributed, did what was needed, won the roll, what ever. What makes one of MY accomplishments better than the other to someone else? I find it hard to understand how MY item, on MY inventory, looking like another one of MY owned gear sets somehow takes away any of YOUR "feelings" towards an item. Either way it goes both ways. I dont know about you, but Id get a much better "feeling" of special when its not worn by almost every end game raider in the server. The less have it on "display", the more "special" it is.
I remember the old days we used to whisper one another on a raid item "/tell Wow! Look at the graphic on it!".. or you see someone stop and say "Where did you get that from?". If you add in appearance changes, no one will bother/notice as effects n' such will be common place. It provides more player interaction by not customising appearance/gear and it'll make all items in the game feel that little bit more unique.
Not every item has to be the most amazing looking item in the land....... it's unrealistic.
Ok sorry this is just getting ridiculous now. How can anyone possibly believe this minuscule occurence is more important than a players personal preference for his own character? First of all, youre assuming everyone will be hiding their shiny hard earned weapon, every time? Second, you talk like youll never see an epic rare being worn (by someone else, mind you) unless THEY are forced to have it displayed on THEIR character, for YOUR viewing pleasure. Seriously?
You're taking this too serious. I purely find it unrealistic... players always end up making it look better or customising to "that nice effect/weapon".. thats the unrealistic part in my view. What you have on shows what you've done, where you been... if someone starts walking around all geared up at level 10 from 60 alt all razzler dazzle.. I find it unrealistic.. and people always transfer it across; if its a like for like effect.. so you end up with everyone with awesome epic stuff with amazing effects at low level... which is just silly if everyone does it and devalues that weapons looks later on because they all are amazing.. thus no one cares.. You end up with people wearing stuff out of context too.
I remember seeing the SoulFire effect and being blown away.. if everyone has those type of effects.. it becomes normal and bland... dull. It's unrealistic in my view for everyone to be super awesomely geared..
Nimryl said:You're taking this too serious. I purely find it unrealistic... players always end up making it look better or customising to "that nice effect/weapon".. thats the unrealistic part in my view. What you have on shows what you've done, where you been... if someone starts walking around all geared up at level 10 from 60 alt all razzler dazzle.. I find it unrealistic.. and people always transfer it across; if its a like for like effect.. so you end up with everyone with awesome epic stuff with amazing effects at low level... which is just silly if everyone does it and devalues that weapons looks later on because they all are amazing.. thus no one cares.. You end up with people wearing stuff out of context too.
I remember seeing the SoulFire effect and being blown away.. if everyone has those type of effects.. it becomes normal and bland... dull. It's unrealistic in my view for everyone to be super awesomely geared..
In every game with appearance slots I've played none of this ever happens. The reason the stuff you describe never happens is because the systems aren't designed that way.
Level 1s won't be "razzle dazzle" unless there is equipment available at that level that is "razzle dazzle". As such, it is not a design flaw with the appearance system itself but a flaw elsewhere. The reason for this being that equipment tends to look better the further you progress with particle effects in such. Epics are historically no-trade. Raid gear is generally no-trade.
If the things you describe happens, it's a design flaw, but not a design flaw with the appearance system itself.
I'm just explaining why I don't want to see it in.. I dont know what the designs gunna be like. I'm just sayin' from what I've seen.
And everyone _I've_ seen has been unrealistic.
Liav said:Nimryl said:I'm just explaining why I don't want to see it in.. I dont know what the designs gunna be like. I'm just sayin' from what I've seen.
And everyone _I've_ seen has been unrealistic.
By what definition of unrealistic?
"I have a flaming sword" unrealistic, or?
*facepalms* -- reread my posts.
Kilsin said:Please stay on topic, I won't close this, I will have to delete posts instead to clean it up and I don't want to have to do that, it is an interesting topic that I want to see continue in a mature fashion.
I am curious as to why there has to be "appearance gear" in the first place and not instead actually let players purchase these items from NPCs and let crafters make real clothing items, like shirts, pants, dresses, hats, jewellery, shoes, boots and let players take their combat armour off and put their formal or casual clothing on? Why does it have to be "appearance gear", Why can't it be real physical gear that has value and a place in the game?
Why does the armour, weapons, stats and buffs all have to stay magically hidden while displaying entirely different items for show but allowing the character gain a benefit from the hidden gear? I am trying to get my head around this line of thinking so I understand it better as I am not sure what the big deal is about having to take it off and put it back on again when you are in and out of combat, wouldn't that be more immersive and in the nature of RPing than pretending to be wearing something while actually wearing something you need to survive underneath?
Kilsin, I'll put in my personal reason here, but it may not hold true with everyone.
For me, it's simply that I may disagree with the developers as to what is the most appropriate look for my character when adventuring. I know in past games I have genuinely preferred to be decked out in slightly older and grungier looking armour. Armour that looks like it's been through a few battles and isn't sparkling new. Or even if I do like it to be sparkling new, I've also had it where I just feel like a particular piece of armour in my required raiding gear just makes me look like a clown.
Yes, I can see where the opinion comes from that says that's what would actually happen and it's a truer testament of what my journey has been, but if I'm going to be stuck feeling like my character looks like a clown for the next X months as I keep trying to find a replacement piece, then that will significantly detract from my enjoyment of the game.
Nimryl said:Kilsin said:Appearance gear and weapons - Do you like being able to change your characters appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons, even if a few others have it too?
My response is: "I would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons, even if a few others have it too."
While appearance changes are needed in a F2P system.. I accept it, altho I dislike it. Gear is earnt generally. We should proud/excited by getting that armour piece- with it's unique graphic and effects... It's a trophy to your accomplishments like you said... and thats what your character should represent. If custom armour/effects are added or even just the abilitie to swap pieces, it kinda takes that away from that item feeling "special" to just "meh who cares".
I remember the old days we used to whisper one another on a raid item "/tell Wow! Look at the graphic on it!".. or you see someone stop and say "Where did you get that from?". If you add in appearance changes, no one will bother/notice as effects n' such will be common place. It provides more player interaction by not customising appearance/gear and it'll make all items in the game feel that little bit more unique.
Not every item has to be the most amazing looking item in the land....... it's unrealistic.
I agree and I do like a lot of varied armour, I wouldn;t want the entire server all looking the same but I just don;t see why we should be allowed to wear gear and gain stats from it but appear as wearing something completely different. I have no problem wearing my dented and dirty breastplate of uberness while I group, do dungeon runs and raid but then walking around towns/cities remove all of my combat gear and replace it with more comfortable and better-looking clothes but I don't understand why people want both?
But again, it really is personal choice and not everyone will agree with my view on this and that is perfectly fine! You want see me flipping a table over and walking out at the first sign of someone disagreeing with me! ;)