Very simple...
If you want to have a look, put it on...
What those items are, should not matter to your character, only perhaps to the player controlling him. (want vs need)
What pros, or cons do you gain from this look, in wearing these certain peices that provide the look you are looking for. What sacrifices are you going to personaly make, to give your character "that look".
It doesn't matter if the dragan scale leather pants, and the rest is fine hand crafted leather... If you want it a certain color, and certain dye. Then you will have to find it, or have it made. Then find a tanner who can work with those leathers & that use rarer dyes.
Go for the look you want, it may take month or years finding the right gear/look.
Now, there should also be an appearance paperdoll that when wearing those cloths & items, One's armor & stats are not worn or added. Kinda like VG diplomat paperdoll. These "cosmetics" can give endless looks for social settings and traveling about. But when it is time for battle you must change into your armor, or suffer.
There is just endless depth in crafting in both Appearance Items, and the crafting & altering of Armors & Weapons Think of player made Bracers that are from a rare hide, using rare ink and has a rare writ that a high level enchanter is going to use to enchant that bracer. All driven by natural materials found out in the world.
There should never be any way to grab a look of another weapon and apply it to yours, ever. That is baby ****.
Admin Edit: Language.
I always liked seeing high end raiders in EQ hanging out in cities wearing uber stuff I wanted to have some day. I lean more towards no appearance items but it wouldn't ruin the experience for me if they were in the game. The real deal is that you put a big focus on making many unique looking group and raid items. None of this "one set of raiding gear for rogues in this expansion" you need to have all sorts of best in slot items that have little to do with the look of normal class sets to keep things from being boring.
On one other small note please don't do what EQ1 did much later into it's expansions and become lazy with each slot having one type of effect assigned to it regardless of where the item came from. That was truly snoozeworthy!
I don't think GOblins and Efreeti are making armor sets for travelers anymore in Pantheon. I think most Characters will be wearing mismatched, beat up armor, that are a testament to their travels.
The whole idea of raidable armor sets are a joke to me.
Armor is what your guild Smiths, tailors and Crafters should be making. If a dragon happens to drop a piece of magical armor, then so be it.
Again, the idea of questable armor sets are a joke. I understand gathering armor off minions to make a set. But they would not be of high quality, unless there is a reason for that mob to be wearing Expert crafted Armor.
Unlike the Master, or Grand Master quality by Player Crafters. Getting materials for Player Crafters to make your Armor Sets hould be your personal quest, not given quest.
Fingurs said:
Please no cosmetic gear/appearance gear. AT ALL, ever.
Nothing screams WOW/Play2Win/lack of Uniqueness, then cosmetic appearances.
I dont have much to say on it, outside of it makes everyone similar, and isnt that what were trying to get away from?
I disagree, honestly.
Take Vanguard for instance, and EQ even.
In EQ, all armor of a specific type (leather, chain, plate) looked identical aside from dye. The level of customization was severely lacking, and everyone looked similar.
In Vanguard, without the appearance options it had, everyone would've ultimately ended up looking pretty much identical in their APW/PotA armor sets, although these armor sets were gorgeous. There was no weapon customization, so literally everyone of the same class at the top end had the same weapon appearances (see: epic weapons).
Guild Wars 2 has one of the most robust armor customization options of any game I've ever played, and very few people end up looking similar/identical.
Pantheon isn't a horizontal progression game, it's a vertical progression game. Simply put, there will likely be armor pieces that will be "best in slot" on the high end, and the endgame players will all end up looking identical anyway. Cosmetic armor is the only way I can see to circumvent this.
Liav said:
Fingurs said:
Please no cosmetic gear/appearance gear. AT ALL, ever.
Nothing screams WOW/Play2Win/lack of Uniqueness, then cosmetic appearances.
I dont have much to say on it, outside of it makes everyone similar, and isnt that what were trying to get away from?
I disagree, honestly.
Take Vanguard for instance, and EQ even.
In EQ, all armor of a specific type (leather, chain, plate) looked identical aside from dye. The level of customization was severely lacking, and everyone looked similar.
In Vanguard, without the appearance options it had, everyone would've ultimately ended up looking pretty much identical in their APW/PotA armor sets, although these armor sets were gorgeous. There was no weapon customization, so literally everyone of the same class at the top end had the same weapon appearances (see: epic weapons).
Guild Wars 2 has one of the most robust armor customization options of any game I've ever played, and very few people end up looking similar/identical.
Pantheon isn't a horizontal progression game, it's a vertical progression game. Simply put, there will likely be armor pieces that will be "best in slot" on the high end, and the endgame players will all end up looking identical anyway. Cosmetic armor is the only way I can see to circumvent this.
In a game where having the high end armor actually means something, I don't really see that being a problem. The real reason people don't like it in other games is because everyone is capable of getting the best items, thus they all have the same items.
Add dyes and maybe (eventually) some sort of armor modding or ornamenting (preferably via tradeskills), and I'd be more than happy.
Dullahan said:
Liav said:
Fingurs said:
Please no cosmetic gear/appearance gear. AT ALL, ever.
Nothing screams WOW/Play2Win/lack of Uniqueness, then cosmetic appearances.
I dont have much to say on it, outside of it makes everyone similar, and isnt that what were trying to get away from?
I disagree, honestly.
Take Vanguard for instance, and EQ even.
In EQ, all armor of a specific type (leather, chain, plate) looked identical aside from dye. The level of customization was severely lacking, and everyone looked similar.
In Vanguard, without the appearance options it had, everyone would've ultimately ended up looking pretty much identical in their APW/PotA armor sets, although these armor sets were gorgeous. There was no weapon customization, so literally everyone of the same class at the top end had the same weapon appearances (see: epic weapons).
Guild Wars 2 has one of the most robust armor customization options of any game I've ever played, and very few people end up looking similar/identical.
Pantheon isn't a horizontal progression game, it's a vertical progression game. Simply put, there will likely be armor pieces that will be "best in slot" on the high end, and the endgame players will all end up looking identical anyway. Cosmetic armor is the only way I can see to circumvent this.
In a game where having the high end armor actually means something, I don't really see that being a problem. The real reason people don't like it in other games is because everyone is capable of getting the best items, thus they all have the same items.
Add dyes and maybe (eventually) some sort of armor modding or ornamenting (preferably via tradeskills), and I'd be more than happy.
Realistically, it's too early to tell exactly how difficult things will be in Pantheon.
Even on the low end, take Vanguard again for example, the Hunter's League armor/weapon were basically the bread and butter of that level range. Every player you saw around ~22 had that weapon. Once they got around 25-27, they got their CIS weapon. Everyone looked the same.
I don't know how they plan on itemizing Pantheon, I just think it's unnecessary to shoehorn everyone into not having any control over their character's aesthetics. All of the objections I've heard to it so far don't really add up. Saying that people will look similar is literally the opposite of what appearance gear does in games.
Liav said:
Dullahan said:
Liav said:
Fingurs said:
Please no cosmetic gear/appearance gear. AT ALL, ever.
Nothing screams WOW/Play2Win/lack of Uniqueness, then cosmetic appearances.
I dont have much to say on it, outside of it makes everyone similar, and isnt that what were trying to get away from?
I disagree, honestly.
Take Vanguard for instance, and EQ even.
In EQ, all armor of a specific type (leather, chain, plate) looked identical aside from dye. The level of customization was severely lacking, and everyone looked similar.
In Vanguard, without the appearance options it had, everyone would've ultimately ended up looking pretty much identical in their APW/PotA armor sets, although these armor sets were gorgeous. There was no weapon customization, so literally everyone of the same class at the top end had the same weapon appearances (see: epic weapons).
Guild Wars 2 has one of the most robust armor customization options of any game I've ever played, and very few people end up looking similar/identical.
Pantheon isn't a horizontal progression game, it's a vertical progression game. Simply put, there will likely be armor pieces that will be "best in slot" on the high end, and the endgame players will all end up looking identical anyway. Cosmetic armor is the only way I can see to circumvent this.
In a game where having the high end armor actually means something, I don't really see that being a problem. The real reason people don't like it in other games is because everyone is capable of getting the best items, thus they all have the same items.
Add dyes and maybe (eventually) some sort of armor modding or ornamenting (preferably via tradeskills), and I'd be more than happy.
Realistically, it's too early to tell exactly how difficult things will be in Pantheon.
Even on the low end, take Vanguard again for example, the Hunter's League armor/weapon were basically the bread and butter of that level range. Every player you saw around ~22 had that weapon. Once they got around 25-27, they got their CIS weapon. Everyone looked the same.
I don't know how they plan on itemizing Pantheon, I just think it's unnecessary to shoehorn everyone into not having any control over their character's aesthetics. All of the objections I've heard to it so far don't really add up. Saying that people will look similar is literally the opposite of what appearance gear does in games.
I certainly don't want to see players forced into only a specific item for each level range. We definitely need options or a way to tweak what we're wearing. However, even if players are largely using the same items, I think it makes more sense than for characters to appear to be using a different item than the one they are actually using. That sort of thing is an absolute immersion killer for me.
I think a nice bridge between party/formal wear and raid/exploration gear is cultural armor. I think all races should have cultural armor and it should be complicated, meaning: could take some time, components are not so easy to get (terrortantula silk! arrgh! non stackable!) and needs high level skill to make, and have an identifiable look. Cultural armor also should have stats that compliment or boost the innate racial benefits. That way they can be worn in a social occiaion but also be kept on as armor in an emergency situation that also changes gameplay because the person wearing the armor will then have to play in a way that embodies/ exemplifies the race. For instance: 2 gnome wizards are invited to a social occasion and appear wearing cultural armor. Suddenly the event is interrupted by an event or monster. Groups/raid forms and the fight ensues. The monster is shockingly dispatched in a manner that everyone is almost sickened at its brutality and says oh my goodness- that could ONLY have been a wizard spell! to then turn and see one gnome dead, and the other almost dead because they were forced to play to their strengths and their weaknesses due to the cultural armor. Of course older gnomes would be more skilled, etc etc.
I do think Armors won/gained should have different looks to allow one to say, I like that goblin shield, it has similar stats as the mermaid shield but looks different and fits with my style, today. Itemization will be important in this case
I think standard armors should look different on different races- like the "teapot" helmet look on erudite paladins, but also identifieable- like the red apothic armor so coveted by mages, even partial pieces were admired. Likewise the skill of a smith could be identified by his production of red plate armor- this was before dye's. I remember a couple : Ciallach and Lessa, he was working up his smithing to be able to make her a set of red plate, for the look but it was also functional.
I think another easy way to differentiate will be in how the weapon is held. For instance, a Katana can be held out two handed, kendo style (1st star wars light sabre type fights), one handed, down or up, or back handed (like zaoitchi), and that perhaps determined/ forced on the player by the game, like dance moves were. I didn't like that I always "churned butter" when I danced, but that was the only move available by the machine/game. So be it and I dealt with it like racial vision penalties.
I do think dye's should be allowed, or at least crafted, and maybe patterns or decals? If three human warriors has the two-tone breastplace from cobalt scar with the stats 8-6-7-5-30-9
to make it look different on the third, perhaps be able to add a sublte design like checks?
Anasyn said:Lets not take a step backwards when a developer can easily create a solution that fits every bodies needs.
The developers could create an option to view items people are wearing or their appearance slot. The user decides what gear they want to view. Kinda like using old Everquest models or the new Models it should be up to the user what they view.
This poster gets it, people are quick to "Omg that feature is wack" but don't understand that subs alone won't make this company profit (again this is a business).... I am ALL FOR this approach.
I am personally against individual gear appearance changes. Back in the EC Tunnel days I was a graphic guru... I could look at a player and name a majority of the more popular items from the incredibly obvious graphics down to the obscure... Even up until Velious being able to tell the difference between the Warrior sets (Champions vs. Myrmidon vs. Warlords). It was always awesome walking around with a Blade of Carnage and people knowing exactly what weapon I was wielding and what it meant... It was a great sense of pride. I miss those days. In WoW every paladin and his brother is running around in Judgement armor and the Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros (Don't get me wrong I had this set too).
The only appearance items that should exist should be complete illusion spells or items. Mages turning into elementals, enchanters with all of their creature illusions, all of the awesome racial Bard/Rogue illusion masks... Amulet of Necropotence anyone?
In short, changing the looks of a specific piece of armor... No thanks. The ability to change to a different race/creature entirely... Absolutely!
Such conservatism.. and such a display of complexes..
Complexes; If, decades since last a game fitting your criteria of 'old school' came about, you are STILL (at the age you now find yourselves in) concerned about kindergarten "mine's the biggest" contests and e-peen show offs (that's what it boils down to, isn't it? Gear showing?).. i need not even comment further. The fact that you are still governed by such a mentality pretty much entails your inability to grasp whatever implications it may have (had) in your lives.
In regard to conservatism; You need comprehend you are likely to be your own undoing.
'Old school' in the sense of trial and error, difficulty, time investment, need for social skills, lack of hand holding, YES.
'Old School' in the sense of forgoing simple quality of life mechanics becuase "back in the stone age we did not have them so why now", NO.
You can have wardrobes/appearance slots that tie in to i) crafting, ii) mob grinding, iii) economy boosting (auctioned out items) and STILL be old school; And STILL be able to tell if your fellow player wears 'x' or 'y' raid gear piece. A mere toggle, is all. One does not invalidate the other. On the contrary, while each and every notion or aftereffect of the "raid gear" aspect will remain valid with wardrobes, you additionally get to have the tie-ins i just mentioned, and due to those, a player base with one more ingame hobby to be involved with. Everyone happy, complexed wannabes included.
Sad to know most of you play not for RPing online (hence wardrobes, would have thought it self-evident)=MMORPG, but simply for pewpewing online.
Careful what you ask for. Careful whom it may push away, you might come to need them; if not ingame, then at least through their financial support. And careful with that egoism, in games about the many. Carry on, and hopefully, mentalities such as those found here will not as be evident in other threads.
(though who am i kidding)
@Aenra
You're taking a pretty bold stance here to assume all that want gear to be recognizable only want to that way to see who has the larger.... you know what, and I'd argue you seem to be entirely missing the point.
For me, it comes down to meaningful, memorable gear and the gear is immediately recognizable because it's meaningful. Example: Part of the reason gear was recognizable in EQ1 was because there wasn't 100 different pieces of Diablo-esque style gear that you replaced every level or every quest hub like current generation MMOs. If you obtained a Short Sword of the Ykesha, people knew it, recognized it and understood it was a great piece of gear, and you were proud to show it - you might be wielding that weapon for 10+ levels. That, in and of itself can be a form of role-play - the Adventurer. Your warrior just killed a named Mob deep in a dungeon, and you want to proudly display your plunder. Just because it may not fit your narrative, doesn't mean it's not correct.
With that said, I could care less either way if Pantheon implements toggleable sliders, appearance gear, crafting gear etc., but there's more than just ego when I ask for meaningful, memorable and recognizable gear. And, there's nothing wrong with friendly competition or gear envy. A healthy MMO environment would foster both - it is human nature to want to better oneself.
Hey all,
Here are our current thoughts:
1. It is important for community in our opinion that people see your gear, especially more exotic gear, worn on you, to inspire them to earn that gear if that want to look that way on day in their future.
2. That said, if it's important to enough of our players to have cosmetic slots, we would consider that, but the cosmetic items would never look the same as the earned gear.
Glad to know we won't ever see any wizzies running around in platemail and all that other junk! :D I'm all for cosmetic gear in the sense that you have a set of clothes or something you wear in town and stuff, really helps the RPers too. But being able to show off actual combat gear you don't have / aren't wearing isn't only annoying and frustrating for alot of PvE players, it's actually dangerous to a PvP player and can negatively impact our gameplay experience directly. These are the new-age, everyones-the-hero game mechanics that most of us are trying to get the hell away from.
I remember a lengthy quest in one of the expansions in EQ. It had to do with getting crystals and fitting them into slots, and the item got more powerfull the more cystals you put in, culminating in the finished product, the final crystal from a raid encounter.
I was able to encourage some people to go grouping and questing for them because many were obtainable in steadily harder areas, and even without the final piece, it was still good in all its steps along the way, and there was another like it with collecting tongues for a necklace and I remember the rangers really liked that one so we would go and try for those things and gather people or be the start of the group in that area while we looked for others that wanted to join. It was nice because it was a good item, and even if you did not get the final 3 or 4 pieces, it was still a good item. Made you go places. It was fun.
Heres my compromise...
when you are out in the field or deep in the dungeon fighting you have your armor showing! period, end of discussion as I sure as hell dont want to fight next to someone wearing bunny ears on their head or swinging a dead fish as a sword (heres looking at you EQ2). Once you hit town you should have an apperance slot, with town clothes, out fits....different suits or looks. but only viewable IN TOWN.
One thing I think alot of ppl are forgetting is that we have been told it will be essential to have multiple suits of armor for different enviroments
So in the desert you will have armor that is styled for the desert and it SHOULD all look similar
in the cold reaches of the far north you should have armor that reflects that, lots of furs and layers upon layers of material
I mean think about it...im sure most of the Dornish fighters dress pretty similar, as do the nights guard men....but in no way do they dress the same
I am not a fan of trans mogging gear like they do in WoW currently. I believe it takes away from status and significance of attaining gear. If Pantheon implements cosmetic slots, I'm ok with that even though I probably won't use it. Gear graphics should progress as the character progresses. We will all look common and dull early on, but as we level our gear will evolve with us.
I'm in the minority here but I don't think developers should create " on/off " buttons for equipment graphics. If a player does not want a helmet graphic then don't wear a helmet. If you don't want a cloak graphic, don't wear a cloak. That is the simpliest solution.
I'm going to double down on the first reply on Facebook about this topic: "Appearance gear should not exist. We wear what we earn. Named weapons and armor are special and detracting from that ruins the game."
I think its very important for devs to get this right. I absolutely do not want to see people running around with Jack-O-Lantern heads, candy cane swords, cupid hearts floating above their heads, or anything else that detracts from the game world. Likewise, I don't want to see tanks that should be wearing plate armor tanking raid bosses in pink tutus, dresses, or robes. Instant immersion-killer.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. You could have a casual clothing option where players could switch to clothing without stats but that have a certain appearance.
But you would be making a mistake to allow players to keep the casual clothing appearance while wearing their combat armor.
Yeah, I don't mind cosmetic items as long as they don't make you look like you're wearing earned items -- of course, this means more art assets to create, because we'd have to create character appearance items to reflect those cosmetic items, not just earned items.
Also definitely not a fan of being able to run into combat with your cosmetic items on.... so perhaps if you have your cosmetic items on or switched to 'viewable', it should affect your stats/AC/DPS/etc?
We know what we don't want (stated earlier), but the details of how a hybrid system would work is interesting and we've not set anything in stone when it comes to the details.
This has been mentioned before, but I think a great compromise would be allowing players to see appearance items or costume items on themselves, but the rest of the world sees the gear they're actually wearing. Make it a toggle and client-side only. Armor dying... I really miss that from EQ1 and would love to see it make a comeback in Pantheon. At least this would allow us to somewhat color match or have some level of control over our appearance without circumeventing the ideals behind displaying earned gear.
This isnt a 100% win-win, but its damn close.
