disposalist said:I want to add a very big PLUS MINUS ONE to the idea that adding a feature is fine as long as you add a toggle so people who don't want it can switch it off.
EDIT: OMG sorry I totally flipped the meaning of that sentence. To be clear: Including a toggle does NOT make a feature ok to add...
It is hugely important that Pantheon is a *shared* experience. Different UI themes and different graphical fidelity? Fine. Functionally different interfaces and mechanics? Not fine.
VR should assess all the factors, garner some feedback and make a decision based on their huge combined experience and their vision for the game.
If a feature is worthwhile, add it, if it isn't, don't. Options and customisation is fine, but no one wants dozens of options about fundamental features so we end up almost playing different games.
so uh.. would the consider system be something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEee6yvuaiA
i really don't get the point of the consider system.
oh i should add something: like toggling the ui would reduce the amount of 'interfacing' that needed to be done. eh whatever. i give up trying to understand what the consider system actually is.
Traditionally (in EQ and the like) the consider system is very simple: -
You target a monster and type /con in the text UI. The game responds with a text message which indicates, in an indirect, but easy to decipher english sentence, what the monster's relative level is and whether it will attack you or not.
For example, if it responded: -
"The Crushbone Orc looks at you threateningly. It looks like it would wipe the floor with you!"
It would mean the Crushbone Orc will attack you, but only if you get very near. It is one or two levels higher than you.
The text would also be a certain colour, in this case yellow, so you can quickly appreciate it's relative level/power.
Essentially, it is giving you relative power and threat indicators and, as you can see from this thread, some people would prefer the system more direct and useful, some more obscure and mysterious (or none at all).
Some, like myself, would like it expanded to include more than just level and threat, but be made more meaningful and involved, like a 'skill'.
It is deemed an essential thing in a lot of games so people don't have to die unavoidably in order to work out something is much too powerful for them. It is, perhaps, an unrealistic 'game' mechanic, but then, so is respawning when you die and, unless there is very little death penalty, to die unavoidably potentially every time you meet something new would stifle adventure. There are other ways to avoid needing one, like autoscaling monsters or guiding players carefully through zones of the 'correct' level, but these have obvious negative effect on any sandbox feel you would prefer.
The consider system has quite fundamental impact.
Hope that helps.
Syrif said:@Stellar To add: the consider (level of threat) can fluctaute with some faction work. I think it will be tied into faction - I could be wrong, but it looked like the text wording indicates level of threat/faction standing and the color of text indicates strength of mob.
The "It glares at you threateningly" describes the relative faction/threat. The "It looks like it would wipe the floor with you" describes the relative power/level.
As your faction changed, the first part changed, as your level changed, the second part changed.
http://www.zlizeq.com/Game_Mechanics-Faction_and_Consider
For Pantheon, if you wanted to expand the system, you could add "It jitters, nervously" or "It wipes a red stain from its mouth" to describe Alarmist or Bloodthirsty disposition. It could add "it is surrounded by a heat haze" for fire resistance, but the english text way of expressing these concepts negins to get difficult, unwieldy and contrived. A subtle graphical UI representation might be nicer, if they wanted to include this kind of information at all.
disposalist said:
The "It glares at you threateningly" describes the relative faction/threat. The "It looks like it would wipe the floor with you" describes the relative power/level.
As your faction changed, the first part changed, as your level changed, the second part changed.
Gotcha. Thanks for the link!
Syrif said:disposalist said:The "It glares at you threateningly" describes the relative faction/threat. The "It looks like it would wipe the floor with you" describes the relative power/level.
As your faction changed, the first part changed, as your level changed, the second part changed.
Gotcha. Thanks for the link!
Bear in mind, though, that is Everquest. The similar system in Pantheon is, no doubt, just a basic placeholder, since they have said already that the faction system isn't yet complete. There's no reason Pantheon should make do with a 20 year old system. They might, but it is a prime candidate for improvement and expansion.
disposalist said:Syrif said:disposalist said:The "It glares at you threateningly" describes the relative faction/threat. The "It looks like it would wipe the floor with you" describes the relative power/level.
As your faction changed, the first part changed, as your level changed, the second part changed.
Gotcha. Thanks for the link!
Bear in mind, though, that is Everquest. The similar system in Pantheon is, no doubt, just a basic placeholder, since they have said already that the faction system isn't yet complete. There's no reason Pantheon should make do with a 20 year old system. They might, but it is a prime candidate for improvement and expansion.
Thanks - I couldn’t remember how the colors changed alongside text. To note: the colored rings around the NPC from Playstation's OnlineAdventures are quite dated since that’s a 17 year old visual system. The stream’s text is similar, perhaps the text wording will be upgraded - it will be interesting to see how Consider is utilized in Pantheon.
i wouldn't change the colour of the targeting rings though. that needs to remain consistent, however, suppose one was in lava cave. the red targeting reticle will be hard to see. they should probably consider highlighting it with black so it can stand out.
as pointed out, i'd remove all information completely minus name, health and basic resource bar, give the ability to identify strengths, weaknessness, levels, threat, etc to enchanters, bards or any cc type of class
kind of like https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Libra_(ability)
build up that class interdependency even more.
oh here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNyD4vpLP2c&list=PLNMUubx3Q5FnaTUmO7JB4MIY9fZjL9n2m
I still am confused on why they want a system that is completely redunant and repetitive in Panthoen in the first place, you can evolve it like Dispos said and simply just make it better for sure, but to simply take it from text which makes it optional to see and sometimes not ecven needed, to basically combining the targetting system to the consideration system that again makes it redunant sounds like a huge missed opportunity to make it something much better, at the end of the day, everyone is honestly going to tell what level something is, you can easily scope out like 5 of the same mobs and get a feel for the level range is, but if you use Dispos idea, and it goes:
It looks Threatening to you, it seems to be quite powerful. Class: Paladin, Tendencies: Stuns, Heals. Than this would make much better than "Oh I simply just want to have my rings to change colors becuase that sounds cool."
Riahuf22 said:I still am confused on why they want a system that is completely redunant and repetitive in Panthoen in the first place, you can evolve it like Dispos said and simply just make it better for sure, but to simply take it from text which makes it optional to see and sometimes not ecven needed, to basically combining the targetting system to the consideration system that again makes it redunant sounds like a huge missed opportunity to make it something much better, at the end of the day, no one is honestly going to tell what level something is, you can easily scope out like 5 of the same mobs and get a feel for the level range is, but if you use Dispos idea, and it goes:
It looks Threatening to you, it seems to be quite powerful. Class: Paladin, Tendencies: Stuns, Heals. Than this would make much better than "Oh I simply just want to have my rings to change colors becuase that sounds cool."
colour changing rings isn't a good idea. the hud should be consistient in delivery of information. i wouldn't even add text. just make the mob emit an aura. like dbz HHIYAHHHhhhhhhhhhh.
okay maybe not so extreme but it could get more pronounced depending on the level difference. i still think it should be a class skill to identify stuff. knowledge is power.
I also like the idea of having the coning system evolve into more than it was in EQ. If this was done, I also would understand why some of the information might be best in chat? Hard to tell until I new for sure what was being added.
But if the conning system is exactly the same as is was in EQ it will be used a lot. Death matters and when starting a fight, it matters a lot if the mob is yellow or red. Again, if like EQ a red mob could be almost impossible to even hurt and could kill you in one hit. Red mobs could also be mixed in with much lower mobs making the conning system extremely important.
If you are playing in an area that is all around your level it might not be important but EQ had lots of areas that would quickly change levels on you. Based on the last video we watched the spiders were low level but it quickly changed making me think it will be the same in Pantheon.
The level is not the only part of the con matters. If you are a rouge or a wizard running around invis you needed con to make sure ever mob you run by can’t see you. I spammed the C key a lot in EQ and I expect I will a lot in Pantheon if it is implemented the same.
Now if they decide to remove this information all together then I would obviously not be using it. But this would have important ramifications making exploring new areas extra dangerous. I for one like to be able to assess the threat in front of me and love the idea of conning to do that. I also like the idea of evolving it into more than it was in EQ. A lot of what disposalist has said sounds like a promising direction when it comes to evolving it.
I also like the idea of having something be in the graphics of the mob itself or animations. I am not sure about your example of blood dripping from the mouth as a perfect example but as a direction I love it. If I could tell just looking at a mob all this information, I would love it. Of course, as of anything it could be done well or poorly and if done poorly, I expect I would hate it
starblight said:I also like the idea of having something be in the graphics of the mob itself or animations. I am not sure about your example of blood dripping from the mouth as a perfect example but as a direction I love it. If I could tell just looking at a mob all this information, I would love it. Of course, as of anything it could be done well or poorly and if done poorly, I expect I would hate it
so if you see a blood dripping from the mouth and a slightly black glowing aura, i'd know that it's got the blood thirsty disposition and it's slightly higher level than me.
all done immersively!
stellarmind said:starblight said:I also like the idea of having something be in the graphics of the mob itself or animations. I am not sure about your example of blood dripping from the mouth as a perfect example but as a direction I love it. If I could tell just looking at a mob all this information, I would love it. Of course, as of anything it could be done well or poorly and if done poorly, I expect I would hate it
so if you see a blood dripping from the mouth and a slightly black glowing aura, i'd know that it's got the blood thirsty disposition and it's slightly higher level than me.
all done immersively!
Love the concept just not the design. This might be because I have a hard time imagining things though. You gave an example of the aura which granted is just an example it could look drastically different in Pantheon. But for me that example brings to mind a game like City of Heroes not Pantheon. I might just need to see an image of the bloodthirsty to remove my reluctance.
To be clear in concept I think all games should do things like this. Much more immersive especially compared to reading about it in a chat windows I would rather was not there at all taking up my precious screen space.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:I still am confused on why they want a system that is completely redunant and repetitive in Panthoen in the first place, you can evolve it like Dispos said and simply just make it better for sure, but to simply take it from text which makes it optional to see and sometimes not ecven needed, to basically combining the targetting system to the consideration system that again makes it redunant sounds like a huge missed opportunity to make it something much better, at the end of the day, no one is honestly going to tell what level something is, you can easily scope out like 5 of the same mobs and get a feel for the level range is, but if you use Dispos idea, and it goes:
It looks Threatening to you, it seems to be quite powerful. Class: Paladin, Tendencies: Stuns, Heals. Than this would make much better than "Oh I simply just want to have my rings to change colors becuase that sounds cool."
colour changing rings isn't a good idea. the hud should be consistient in delivery of information. i wouldn't even add text. just make the mob emit an aura. like dbz HHIYAHHHhhhhhhhhhh.
okay maybe not so extreme but it could get more pronounced depending on the level difference. i still think it should be a class skill to identify stuff. knowledge is power.
I don't know if you were being serious but I;n definately against colored Rings for pantheon
starblight said:
Love the concept just not the design. This might be because I have a hard time imagining things though. You gave an example of the aura which granted is just an example it could look drastically different in Pantheon. But for me that example brings to mind a game like City of Heroes not Pantheon. I might just need to see an image of the bloodthirsty to remove my reluctance.
To be clear in concept I think all games should do things like this. Much more immersive especially compared to reading about it in a chat windows I would rather was not there at all taking up my precious screen space.
could always have a fairy called navi saying, 'hey listen!' rofl
this does draw more resources though. i'm sure most of us would have the game sooner than later.
i'll be realistic so bare bones naming the disposition and level is fine.
disposalist said:Bear in mind, though, that is Everquest. The similar system in Pantheon is, no doubt, just a basic placeholder, since they have said already that the faction system isn't yet complete. There's no reason Pantheon should make do with a 20 year old system. They might, but it is a prime candidate for improvement and expansion.
starblight said:I am also not picky at all how it is displayed in the UI as long as it is not in the chat window.
Short and simple, but this point resonates with me. This topic has been all over the place but as a general rule of thumb, I despise seeing my chat-box (that is designed for communication) flooded with "game system" spam. Both Cohh and Saicred had 3 different chat windows open in the last couple of streams:
I do not want to see those windows on the bottom right of my screen. The top one is being used for "Self Combat" and the bottom one is being used for "Other Combat." That is the same thing as "UI Clutter" and I want to make that disappear. If you look at the chat-box on the bottom left, there are two tabs and a plus sign if someone wants to add more. Anything that needs to be conveyed through a chat-box would ideally be funneled into that single window. Players should be able to create separate tabs with different filters for whatever they need. For me personally, I would most likely have a "Chat Channel" / "Auction Channel" and "Combat Log" -- I do not want my chat channel spammed with unnecessary "game system" spam.
I despise having to bob and weave through arbitrary data whenever I need to scroll through my chat log. If game system data needs to be conveyed through a chat-box and it's important for me to read it, I might create a fourth channel, but I certainly wouldn't enjoy having to bounce back and forth between that and my chat channel, especially for something as common as gauging the relative level or faction of an NPC. That would be ridiculous. The "Combat Log" is obviously important due to the sheer volume of data that needs to be collected (and stored) and I'm fine having to switch tabs for that, as needed. This idea that /con should be treated as some special feature that must absolutely have its information propagated through a chat-box is mind-boggling to me.
I'm going to share a timestamp of a video that will hopefully highlight what I am talking about here:
https://youtu.be/fYaoi2Y4XvQ?t=2979
When Cohh sees Grokk, the first thing he does is announce "Grokk /Con" out loud (while typing it) and then proceeds to read the message in his chat-box and says "Oh he regards me indifferently!" That is instantly immersion-breaking to me because he's literally verbalizing/typing a command (he obviously got this from years of playing EQ) to perform a passive activity. He then receives a perception ping that is seamlessly conveyed through UI. (I think there is a good argument that considering something and perceiving something are very similar.) His character was able to seamlessly perceive that he was experiencing a moment of warmth in a safe place, but noticing that Grokk didn't want to try and rip his face off is supposed to require a command that diverts his attention away from what he is looking at? Seriously, wut!?!? Why? Why does noticing one thing get seamlessly conveyed through UI while the other (that happened just a few seconds prior) have to be activated and subsequently read through a chat-box? He then walks up to Rossa the Archaeologist, clicks on the NPC, and becomes immersed in the NPC Dialogue box that pops up on his screen. This was also a seamless transition that maintains a sense of immersion. He didn't say "Rossa Talk" and then proceed to read through his chat-box to see what they had to say.
When it comes to determining the relative level of an NPC, whether or not it's aggressive toward me, or what its health pool looks like, I think all of these things should be handled with basic UI outside of perception or /commands. I think it would feel awful if I had to "perceive" or "consider" something I am targeting before seeing its health bar. That information is accessible for a reason. Some additional consistency with how the combat-related information gets displayed would be a big positive for me. How is my experience any better or more immersive by forcing me to take my eyes off of the NPC I'm targeting in order to process the results of considering it? Targeting is the more weighty action and already implies a significant level of consideration. How exactly does it make sense that my character can identify the health pool of every NPC in the area without having to target them, but in order to gauge their levels I have to first target them, then consider them, and then read a chat-box? To be fair, I'm not a fan of seeing the health pool of every NPC on my screen. I think we should only see the health-pool of an NPC if we are actively targeting it. That's a different topic but I do feel they are related because there should be consistency with how combat-related data is delivered and processed.
oneADseven said:starblight said:I am also not picky at all how it is displayed in the UI as long as it is not in the chat window.
Short and simple, but this point resonates with me. This topic has been all over the place but as a general rule of thumb, I despise seeing my chat-box (that is designed for communication) flooded with "game system" spam. Both Cohh and Saicred had 3 different chat windows open in the last couple of streams:
I do not want to see those windows on the bottom right of my screen. The top one is being used for "Self Combat" and the bottom one is being used for "Other Combat." That is the same thing as "UI Clutter" and I want to make that disappear. If you look at the chat-box on the bottom left, there are two tabs and a plus sign if someone wants to add more. Anything that needs to be conveyed through a chat-box would ideally be funneled into that single window. Players should be able to create separate tabs with different filters for whatever they need. For me personally, I would most likely have a "Chat Channel" / "Auction Channel" and "Combat Log" -- I do not want my chat channel spammed with unnecessary "game system" spam.
I despise having to bob and weave through arbitrary data whenever I need to scroll through my chat log. If game system data needs to be conveyed through a chat-box and it's important for me to read it, I might create a fourth channel, but I certainly wouldn't enjoy having to bounce back and forth between that and my chat channel, especially for something as common as gauging the relative level or faction of an NPC. That would be ridiculous. The "Combat Log" is obviously important due to the sheer volume of data that needs to be collected (and stored) and I'm fine having to switch tabs for that, as needed. This idea that /con should be treated as some special feature that must absolutely have its information propagated through a chat-box is mind-boggling to me.
I'm going to share a timestamp of a video that will hopefully highlight what I am talking about here:
https://youtu.be/fYaoi2Y4XvQ?t=2979
When Cohh sees Grokk, the first thing he does is announce "Grokk /Con" out loud (while typing it) and then proceeds to read the message in his chat-box and says "Oh he regards me indifferently!" That is instantly immersion-breaking to me because he's literally verbalizing/typing a command (he obviously got this from years of playing EQ) to perform a passive activity. He then receives a perception ping that is seamlessly conveyed through UI. (I think there is a good argument that considering something and perceiving something are very similar.) His character was able to seamlessly perceive that he was experiencing a moment of warmth in a safe place, but noticing that Grokk didn't want to try and rip his face off is supposed to require a command that diverts his attention away from what he is looking at? Seriously, wut!?!? Why? Why does noticing one thing get seamlessly conveyed through UI while the other (that happened just a few seconds prior) have to be activated and subsequently read through a chat-box? He then walks up to Rossa the Archaeologist, clicks on the NPC, and becomes immersed in the NPC Dialogue box that pops up on his screen. This was also a seamless transition that maintains a sense of immersion. He didn't say "Rossa Talk" and then proceed to read through his chat-box to see what they had to say.
When it comes to determining the relative level of an NPC, whether or not it's aggressive toward me, or what it's health pool looks like, I think all of these things should be handled with basic UI outside of perception or /commands. I think it would feel awful if I had to "perceive" or "consider" something I am targeting before seeing its health bar. That information is accessible for a reason. Some additional consistency with how the combat-related information gets displayed would be a big positive for me. How is my experience any better or more immersive by forcing me to take my eyes off of the NPC I'm targeting in order to process the results of considering it? Targeting is the more weighty action and already implies a significant level of consideration. How exactly does it make sense that my character can identify the health pool of every NPC in the area without having to target them, but in order to gauge their levels I have to first target them, then consider them, and then read a chat-box? To be fair, I'm not a fan of seeing the health pool of every NPC on my screen. I think we should only see the health-pool of an NPC if we are actively targeting it. That's a different topic but I do feel they are related because there should be consistency with how combat-related data is delivered and processed.
Your complaining about a function your going to use very little in general and blowing it into big proportions like your going to be conning every single mob you come across when your simply not going to, so stop with this completely over dramatic scenario like it clutter, when in fact when you are actually "considering" the mob via text it will be becuase you actually wanted to know the level of the mob specific becuase you "Choose" to consider the target to begin with. and than once you have figured out its level range along with most of the area you are at you simply stop using it, and than you dont have an overuse of a feature like your wanting, which by the way is completely redundant, and you go on your merry way and enjoy the game without having a feature that isn't even needed anymore.
Plus honestly your consideration system you keep bringing up, sounds like it also step away from putting ! above quest givers just so the "Information in readily Available simply by clicking on them."
If while playing EQ coning was only used briefly in new areas it would explain why some might not understand the desire to pull it out of the chat window. I would con just about ever monster I was about to engage with as a wizard. When ever possible I would try to fight in areas that had at least some yellow mobs too me. But this would mean it would be a mix of slightly lower level to slightly higher-level mobs compared to me. Fighting a yellow mob with a wizard would have a much higher chance of resisting my spells so it was important to know.
But also knowing if the monster could see though my invis was crucial to know and the only way to find out was coning the mob. Now I did not run around invis all the time but it was not uncommon. So, while doing this I would need to con every mob. That is a lot of C hitting and looking at the chat window.
Also, while playing my paladin pulling, I would con almost every time I pulled. It would be important to know if by chance this pull might have 2 or 3 yellows. Resistance for a yellow for CC like mez are much higher. I might not be safe to pull all 3 if they are yellow and completely safe if they are blue or white. It might be safer to wait for one that is roaming to pass by.
Some have suggested in this thread that one should just try it and find out. I could see the appeal for such a system. But that is not the system, they have con and I will use it. But also, the dungeons are huge and will likely take hours to explore fully. With Death having real meaning I will want to use the tools given to fully assess the risks my group and I will be taking.
For none EQ players con color explanation. All con colors are in reference to your level.
Grey was much lower level than you and would no longer give exp
Light blue also much lower level than you and would give some exp
Blue was lower level than you and would give a decent amount of exp
White was your level and slightly more exp
Yellow was higher level and would give more exp
Red was much higher level than you and at times was close to invincible depending on just how much higher level. If the gap in levels was enough, they could also one shot you.
starblight said:If while playing EQ coning was only used briefly in new areas it would explain why some might not understand the desire to pull it out of the chat window. I would con just about ever monster I was about to engage with as a wizard. When ever possible I would try to fight in areas that had at least some yellow mobs too me. But this would mean it would be a mix of slightly lower level to slightly higher-level mobs compared to me. Fighting a yellow mob with a wizard would have a much higher chance of resisting my spells so it was important to know.
But also knowing if the monster could see though my invis was crucial to know and the only way to find out was coning the mob. Now I did not run around invis all the time but it was not uncommon. So, while doing this I would need to con every mob. That is a lot of C hitting and looking at the chat window.
Also, while playing my paladin pulling, I would con almost every time I pulled. It would be important to know if by chance this pull might have 2 or 3 yellows. Resistance for a yellow for CC like mez are much higher. I might not be safe to pull all 3 if they are yellow and completely safe if they are blue or white. It might be safer to wait for one that is roaming to pass by.
Some have suggested in this thread that one should just try it and find out. I could see the appeal for such a system. But that is not the system, they have con and I will use it. But also, the dungeons are huge and will likely take hours to explore fully. With Death having real meaning I will want to use the tools given to fully assess the risks my group and I will be taking.
For none EQ players con color explanation. All con colors are in reference to your level.
Grey was much lower level than you and would no longer give exp
Light blue also much lower level than you and would give some exp
Blue was lower level than you and would give a decent amount of exp
White was your level and slightly more exp
Yellow was higher level and would give more exp
Red was much higher level than you and at times was close to invincible depending on just how much higher level. If the gap in levels was enough, they could also one shot you.
I know, but if you are fighting mobs and you know some are yellow to you, than you always act like all are yellow so you don't make dumb mistakes, or again simply hit a button and be done with it, just becuase you feel like you con everything, doesn't mean you should bring in a completely redundant system, plus with what i've seen in pantheon i don't see anyone soloing mobs that are yellow to you anyway, which i could be wrong, but honestly most players who soloed knew it was better to solo low blues and light blues due to the efficency of exp and was able to do without much difficulty, as in too many resists to begin with.
starblight said:Grey was much lower level than you and would no longer give exp
Light blue also much lower level than you and would give some exp
Blue was lower level than you and would give a decent amount of exp
White was your level and slightly more exp
Yellow was higher level and would give more exp
Red was much higher level than you and at times was close to invincible depending on just how much higher level. If the gap in levels was enough, they could also one shot you.
Per link, I believe a Green is much lower level than the char where a little exp is given (it is between Grey and Light Blue). As for said clutter - I’d rather see a text line in chat box than have Consider visual stuff in the world outside the box. I think this is why I like the system Visionary Realm has in streams.
Thanks, I forgot about green. It has been some time. If I recall right green was between light blue and blue?
If the redundancy bothers you, I am fine removing the text. Sorry I could not help myself. But in all honesty this is as you can see, important to at least a few of us. For this reason and the fact that it would have very little if any change the game as a whole I think we should have an option on where the information is displayed.
I also get the argument made a few times, that we should not have an option to please everyone but seeing as I have not seen a large list of proposed options, I am not sure if this would be the straw that broke the camels back or not. Instead I would argue that while I would not be against an option for this, too many options would start to bother me. But heck that is me.