I want to expland my Consider system idea given earlier to include: -
- You need to be within a certain proximity for it to work
- You need to select a target and press a skill button to operate
- You need to maintain contact and line-of-sight for a length of time for the skill to complete
- You get a text indicator giving power, threat and maybe even disposition and faction information
- You get a UI graphical indicator of power, threat, maybe resistances, creature classification, etc.
- The proximity needed, detail given, 'cast' time to use, etc. is all related to your perception and your 'mastery' or 'familiarity' with the creature type concerned
I think the consider function is a valuable and valid gameplay mechanism, not just a nice-to-have QoL feature and I think it deserves a meaningful and interesting implimentation.
stellarmind said:@187 oh you just want more options for targeting? lol that's fine. i thought you wanted more information on mobs, like what they want to eat, likes, dislikes, disposition, political backing, income, age, location, gender, etc.
I think you would need excellent perception skill and mastery/familiarity with that particular creature type to glean that kind of information, but, yeah, why not?
Vandraad said:I liked the /con information appearing in text because it put it in the same place on the screen no matter where the NPC was in my FoV. By using TAB (or some other key combo) to progress through nearest/next NPC I could quickly assertain the status of NPC in range.
Yeah, that’s also true.
disposalist said:stellarmind said:@187 oh you just want more options for targeting? lol that's fine. i thought you wanted more information on mobs, like what they want to eat, likes, dislikes, disposition, political backing, income, age, location, gender, etc.
I think you would need excellent perception skill and mastery/familiarity with that particular creature type to glean that kind of information, but, yeah, why not?
that be crazy if i could discern that much information just looking at someone. at most, i can approximate health, fatigue and maybe mental state, but i gotta be like a hot shot fbi body language reader
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQgObU77lV8
like this guy.
disposalist said:I think the consider function is a valuable and valid gameplay mechanism, not just a nice-to-have QoL feature and I think it deserves a meaningful and interesting implimentation.
Yes, that’s true. I’m glad VR is designing functions such as ‘consider’ with meaningful and interesting implementation. I’m excited about factions too. It’s looking so good.
stellarmind said:disposalist said:stellarmind said:@187 oh you just want more options for targeting? lol that's fine. i thought you wanted more information on mobs, like what they want to eat, likes, dislikes, disposition, political backing, income, age, location, gender, etc.
I think you would need excellent perception skill and mastery/familiarity with that particular creature type to glean that kind of information, but, yeah, why not?
that be crazy if i could discern that much information just looking at someone. at most, i can approximate health, fatigue and maybe mental state, but i gotta be like a hot shot fbi body language reader
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQgObU77lV8
like this guy.
Some of the information would be common to the creature type. You would have to have mastered that type from repeated studying/killing/researching to get that info. Other information might only be available to an experienced Keeper of high (almost magical) ability.
The 'normal' basic EQ-style /con tells you a creatures relative 'toughness' to you, personally, and how they feel about you. Pretty crazy to know a creature's 'power' and 'attitude' just by looking, but folks seem fine about that hehe.
stellarmind said:that be crazy if i could discern that much information just looking at someone. at most, i can approximate health, fatigue and maybe mental state, but i gotta be like a hot shot fbi body language reader
Yes, but the consider action/command and hotbar are still more engaging than something like a ring around the npc. Tuning the consider command to be even more engaging is interesting, but what’s awesome about the /consider system that Visonary Realms already has is it aids in the complex, in-depth faction system as well.
disposalist said:Some of the information would be common to the creature type. You would have to have mastered that type from repeated studying/killing/researching to get that info. Other information might only be available to an experienced Keeper of high (almost magical) ability.
The 'normal' basic EQ-style /con tells you a creatures relative 'toughness' to you, personally, and how they feel about you. Pretty crazy to know a creature's 'power' and 'attitude' just by looking, but folks seem fine about that hehe.
all npcs, mobs and creatures must have a facebook, linkedin and google account to exist in pantheon.
raid bosses are only required to have a linkedin account, however, please ensure we know enough about your minions so they can easily be subverted, coherced or outright slayed with ease.
i think of mobs as puzzles. if all the information is provided with a glance of an eye, it's becomes alot less interesting than if i had to approach it without knowing what it is and ascertain firsthand.
well if swiping left and right is popular then sure. guess i'm old fashion when it comes to not really knowing my mob dates >.>
let mobs establish their own reputation.
that's why hogger was so infamous in wow. rofl.
stellarmind said:all npcs, mobs and creatures must have a facebook, linkedin and google account to exist in pantheon.
raid bosses are only required to have a linkedin account, however, please ensure we know enough about your minions so they can easily be subverted, coherced or outright slayed with ease.
i think of mobs as puzzles. if all the information is provided with a glance of an eye, it's becomes alot less interesting than if i had to approach it without knowing what it is and ascertain firsthand.
well if swiping left and right is popular then sure. guess i'm old fashion when it comes to not really knowing my mob dates >.>
let mobs establish their own reputation.
that's why hogger was so infamous in wow. rofl.
So I take it you are against glowing Rings around a npc that give out information? lol :)
Syrif said:So I take it you are against glowing Rings around a npc that give out information? lol :)
eh i could care less. if ya want it fine. if ya don't want it fine. it's not gonna help me or hinder me in pvp so that's fine XD
i will share that my time during pve is most enjoyable when i didn't know anything about the opposition. the excitement of the unknown and exploring that. the dance is always more enjoyable learning feet first than reading a wall of text on how to tango OLAY!
i should add that immersion is important. so too much information loaded on the ui is not desirable. if i can discern what's going on by observing the target visual cues, that is acceptable enough for me(this is labour intensive though, so i can understand slapping it into the ui).
Syrif said:Yes, but the consider action/command and hotbar are still more engaging than something like a ring around the npc. Tuning the consider command to be even more engaging is interesting, but what’s awesome about the /consider system that Visonary Realms already has is it aids in the complex, in-depth faction system as well.
Can you explain why or how you think the /consider mechanic (as it has been demonstrated) feels so engaging and interesting? That would be really helpful for understanding your position. Also, can you shed some light on how hotbars fit into this discussion? You have referenced hotbars 4 times now and I have been unable to pinpoint the connection.
stellarmind said:Syrif said:So I take it you are against glowing Rings around a npc that give out information? lol :)
eh i could care less. if ya want it fine. if ya don't want it fine. it's not gonna help me or hinder me in pvp so that's fine XD
i will share that my time during pve is most enjoyable when i didn't know anything about the opposition. the excitement of the unknown and exploring that. the dance is always more enjoyable learning feet first than reading a wall of text on how to tango OLAY!
i should add that immersion is important. so too much information loaded on the ui is not desirable. if i can discern what's going on by observing the target visual cues, that is acceptable enough for me(this is labour intensive though, so i can understand slapping it into the ui).
Ah, well in regards to 'consider,' I am against the glowing rings around a player for reasons similar to the comical feedback you gave. I hear ya on pvp! I am so excited to see good pvp return, too.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:Yes, but the consider action/command and hotbar are still more engaging than something like a ring around the npc. Tuning the consider command to be even more engaging is interesting, but what’s awesome about the /consider system that Visonary Realms already has is it aids in the complex, in-depth faction system as well.
Can you explain why or how you think the /consider mechanic (as it has been demonstrated) feels so engaging and interesting? That would be really helpful for understanding your position. Also, can you shed some light on how hotbars fit into this discussion? You have referenced hotbars 4 times now and I have been unable to pinpoint the connection.
On this particular subject, I'm going to go with what is more engaging, so that's why I like Visionary Realm's /consider system (it will also be useful in assisting with Pantheon’s complex faction system). A target-action with a consider command and/or hotbar is more engaging than merely seeing a ring around a player. You are right though, I've said that a few times, so I don't know what else to say. We just disagree, and that's fine. I can see how the Rings system you mentioned worked in OnlineAdventures on PlayStation though, but that game was entirely different from an immersive mmorpg. I think you will see that as we see more streams in the future.
stellarmind said:disposalist said:Some of the information would be common to the creature type. You would have to have mastered that type from repeated studying/killing/researching to get that info. Other information might only be available to an experienced Keeper of high (almost magical) ability.
The 'normal' basic EQ-style /con tells you a creatures relative 'toughness' to you, personally, and how they feel about you. Pretty crazy to know a creature's 'power' and 'attitude' just by looking, but folks seem fine about that hehe.
all npcs, mobs and creatures must have a facebook, linkedin and google account to exist in pantheon.
raid bosses are only required to have a linkedin account, however, please ensure we know enough about your minions so they can easily be subverted, coherced or outright slayed with ease.
i think of mobs as puzzles. if all the information is provided with a glance of an eye, it's becomes alot less interesting than if i had to approach it without knowing what it is and ascertain firsthand.
well if swiping left and right is popular then sure. guess i'm old fashion when it comes to not really knowing my mob dates >.>
let mobs establish their own reputation.
that's why hogger was so infamous in wow. rofl.
I was not suggesting monsters have a 'facebook page' or similar, more that a hunter would come to understand a particular type of monster they have hunted and killed many times such that when they study a similar live creature in the wild they can intuit much more about it than someone who has never encountered it before. Especially one that is very perceptive, intelligent, or whatever other in-game attribute or skill might be appropriate.
I was not suggesting "all the information is provided with a glance of an eye" just something with more depth, meaning and immersion than anyone/everyone just clicking the Con button and being told the monster's power and threat level for free and for no apparent reason.
But, hey, ridicule away if you don't like the idea.
Syrif said:On this particular subject, I'm going to go with what is more engaging, so that's why I like Visionary Realm's /consider system. A target-action with a command and/or hotbar is more engaging than merely seeing a ring around a player. You are right though, I've said that a few times, so I don't know what else to tell you. We just disagree, and that's fine. I can see how the Rings system you mentioned worked in OnlineAdventures on PlayStation though, but that game was entirely different from an immersive mmorpg. I think you will see that as we see more streams in the future.
It seems like you dodged all of my questions. How/Why is it more engaging? Is this just a gut-feeling kind of thing, or something that you can articulate in a way that other people can understand and potentially relate to? This is the fifth time you have referenced a hotbar and I must ask again how that is related to this discussion? I don't understand why you keep making blanket statements like "but that game was entirely different from an immersive mmorpg" -- I have explained several times how the mechanic used in EQOA was more immersive than providing the information in a chat-box. In saying that, I understand that my position is subjective, and that's why I explained why I feel the way I do, and how I came to the conclusion that I did.
You have made several bold statements on this thread about how dangerous certain decisions could be, how certain ideas are at odds with immersive gameplay and thus couldn't work for Pantheon, how awesome the current implementation is, etc. You have qualified your position by saying that you "started to notice things" after 20 years of poor management, poor decision making, and poor design on behalf of MMORPG's. If you could share your observations on how you came to these very alarming concerns, and how they relate to this topic specifically, I may be able to better understand your position. As it stands, it appears that you are suggesting that the intended "color association" is better realized (more interesting/engaging) if you are required to:
Press a button (while already having something targeted) that "actuates" the process of "considering" (or relaying "the color") to a chat-box, and then subsequently diverting your attention to the chat-box in order to pick up on the tell
Rather than:
Keeping your eyes engaged on the NPC that you have targeted and being able to identify "the color" in that same general area, but without having to press an extra button to "actuate" your observation.
If I am misunderstanding your position, it would be helpful if you could tell me exactly which part I am getting wrong, and ideally provide some sort of clarification. Please, and thank you.
Iksar said:To me, it's more "immersive" to have to consider a target via /c than any other UI clutter just by nature. You as the player have to stop and take the time to actively consider the people/creatures around you instead of having (any of) that information handed to you.
Do you not have to stop and take the time to actively consider a colored ring? It isn't just handed to you. It populates on your screen as a direct result of targeting an NPC. I also feel that it's unfair to categorize the colored ring as "UI Clutter" seeing that it already exists in-game, as can be seen in the most recent stream. The point is that the colored ring already serves a purpose and that a slight adjustment to that ring could convey the same information that would otherwise populate in a chat-box that takes up space. By facilitating something like this I could potentially avoid having to use a separate chat-box that is reserved for /consider text and free up some real estate on my screen. At the very least, it would allow me to better control the information that does appear in my chat-box because I would be able to filter out the /consider text.
I don't think I've seen such a successful chain of trolling for a really long time.
No matter how delicately and expertly oneADseven explains it, Syrif continues to defend how reading text in a chat window is better than seeing that same information in some other type of visual display.
oneADseven, eventually you have to realize that Syrif is either trolling you, or he's just a little slow in the IQ department and isn't going to get it. And since Syrif does seem to be able to string a set of words together to form actual sentences I'm going to guess it's the 'Trolling you' option.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:I don't think I've seen such a successful chain of trolling for a really long time.
No matter how delicately and expertly oneADseven explains it, Syrif continues to defend how reading text in a chat window is better than seeing that same information in some other type of visual display.
oneADseven, eventually you have to realize that Syrif is either trolling you, or he's just a little slow in the IQ department and isn't going to get it. And since Syrif does seem to be able to string a set of words together to form actual sentences I'm going to guess it's the 'Trolling you' option.
I am not trolling anyone. I explained my opinion and I‘ve already answered the obvious. You calling me a troll with a low IQ.. Perhaps YOU are the one who is trolling. Sorry to disappoint you, but I won’t go that low. I am not responding to you any further.
oneADseven said:Do you not have to stop and take the time to actively consider a colored ring? It isn't just handed to you.
It pretty much is, it's passively obtained and incomplete information. The ring is a reflection of level/power? Does it convey faction standing? How many extra ui elements are needed that a simple colored line of text (that I'd imagine could be filtered to the combat log) doesn't already convey?
Especially for something many players will need less and less (or not at all) as they are more familiar with the game/area in question.
Iksar said:It pretty much is, it's passively obtained and incomplete information. The ring is a reflection of level/power?
I disagree. If you look at the following screen shot, the only information that is "passively obtained" are the names and health bars of all the players and NPC's within range. Purposely targeting an NPC is not the same thing as being passive. It is an action. This is why you don't see a ring under the "Forgotten Frosthand" -- it isn't being directly targeted.
Iksar said:Does it convey faction standing? How many extra ui elements are needed that a simple colored line of text (that I'd imagine could be filtered to the combat log) doesn't already convey?
Especially for something many players will need less and less (or not at all) as they are more familiar with the game/area in question.
As far as faction standing, this can appear on the nameplate, the same way it did in EQOA, as seen at the bottom-left here:
There were three unique faces depending on whether an NPC was friendly, neutral, or hostile, which each had their own color. You could create additional unique faces or a color gradient if you need to represent a range of standings within a specific category. Or maybe that information isn't necessary at all ... if you target an NPC, it's either friendly/neutral/hostile. If you want more info then you start browsing through your faction book where this information will likely be tracked on a more detailed basis. This can also be a UI element that players can turn off if they desire.
The biggest problem i have with all these systems is that if it a small circle that changes color on how they con to me, all i see is the circle and it takes away from how I'm viewing the mob entirely, like i wouldn't care how it looks, or anything i would simply just look at the circle that is literally covering like 30% of his/her body, and the same would happen if you make an outline of his body, and a ring around his feet, it wouldn't matter i would simply be looking for the feature that tells me how dangerous it is and not the mob itself, which i think is a bad thing and even though it might make it easier it also takes you away from the world, as most people would be looking for the ring and not the mob and therefore all mobs would be similair to other mobs simply becuase you are looking for a feature and not the mob specifically.
No consider system, no mob names. Learn as you go.
How do I know a dwarf is a Forgotten Frosthand? How do I know "this mob is a considerable threat to you"?
Have I studied them? Did we learn about them in school? Is there a plaque out front that tells me what is in this dungeon?
If I fight a mob and kill it easily, then the next mob that looks like it I can "consider" and get information about. But I still don't know what it's called. Remove all names from the game. Let the players name them.
Another reason I say let the players name them is, I think it's rediculous that mobs have a name floating above their heads. We don't need to know what the game thinks they should be called. We can name them ourselves between/within the community.
"Group at the 2nd tent in Amberfaet, looking for 2 more, pst."