Colored rings are already being used so that may be an opportunity (two birds, one stone) to display /con by leveraging existing functionality rather than having to create an additional UI element for nameplates. Either way, I'm fine with the information populating on the nameplate or the existing ring. As far as the consider function being expanded upon, I'm okay with tying that into dispositions but feel that this would actually lead to additional UI clutter if players are able to create "target markers." I'm not sure if there is any plan to offer these in Pantheon but I do acknowledge that they can help players communicate/coordinate more efficiently, especially if group members aren't using voice chat.
With that said, if target markers are indeed offered, I think players would utilize them to notate the various dispositions after a mob is /considered. I wouldn't want to see that happening personally because I think an adjective in a name is much more subtle than a marker floating over the head of an NPC. My understanding is that target markers were utilized in EQ (and later expanded upon in WoW) -- whether they are offered in Pantheon remains to be seen but I think it's worth considering how they could come into play. If dispositions are not displayed in an obvious way but can be discerned through /consider -- the result of that could end up adding a bunch more UI clutter if target markers are available. Just something to think about!
oneADseven said:Colored rings are already being used so that may be an opportunity (two birds, one stone) to display /con by leveraging existing functionality rather than having to create an additional UI element for nameplates. Either way, I'm fine with the information populating on the nameplate or the existing ring. As far as the consider function being expanded upon, I'm okay with tying that into dispositions but feel that this would actually lead to additional UI clutter if players are able to create "target markers." I'm not sure if there is any plan to offer these in Pantheon but I do acknowledge that they can help players communicate/coordinate more efficiently, especially if group members aren't using voice chat.
With that said, if target markers are indeed offered, I think players would utilize them to notate the various dispositions after a mob is /considered. I wouldn't want to see that happening personally because I think an adjective in a name is much more subtle than a marker floating over the head of an NPC. My understanding is that target markers were utilized in EQ (and later expanded upon in WoW) -- whether they are offered in Pantheon remains to be seen but I think it's worth considering how they could come into play. If dispositions are not displayed in an obvious way but can be discerned through /consider -- the result of that could end up adding a bunch more UI clutter if target markers are available. Just something to think about!
be better if there wasn't a marker for dispositions. it should be reflected on the model
like blood thirsty has blood dripping at the mouth
paranoid has them shifting and looking around like crazy
angry can have a bunch of censored symbols flying out their heads etc etc.
less rings and plates moar immersion!
Nephele said:I don't think target markers would be a good thing either - or rather, they can easily be overused and turn into crutches.. While they offer additional utility they can have the unintentional effect of trivializing individual awareness during combat.
to be clear: a indication for target is a must in tab/click targeting system. not to be confused with a 'marker'(a big giant red arrow, star shapes, nipples, square and fruity loops under the sun.
there's some jankiness with this thread since the definitions aren't really clear and not everyone is on the same page to the meaning.
I release this is off point of the OP but I feel it is important to bring up the usefulness of some UI (that I agree can be over used and not ideal) for people with handicaps. The Markers are really good example when I play with my girlfriend that has low vision, I keep a marker above my head so she can find me easier. It is amazing how much this helps us play together.
I understand that not all compromises are worth it for a smaller part of the population but this one I personally would hate to lose. Hopefully this will not distract from the OP as I feel this conversation is important but when I see things like this, I feel it is important to remind people how important it can be to those that need it.
Nephele said:I don't think target markers would be a good thing either - or rather, they can easily be overused and turn into crutches.. While they offer additional utility they can have the unintentional effect of trivializing individual awareness during combat.
While I agree on this to a point, the other side of the equation is also important when considering the core pillars of this game. There is a strong desire for players to communicate, strategize, prepare, coordinate, etc. Target markers allow players to achieve those things much more efficiently, especially if they aren't using voice chat. (There is also a valid argument that many players purposely avoid voice chat for the sake of immersion.) I guess the underlying point that I'm trying to make here is that if Pantheon does ultimately end up offering them, they could end up being a crutch just like you said. The result of that crutch being used on a consistent basis would inevitably lead to a bunch of immersion-breaking UI clutter that could have potentially been avoided if the dispositions are simply notated as an adjective in the name, as they are now.
I understand the desire to have a more meaningful /consideration system but the more meaningful it ultimately ends up being, the more important it will be to convey any information that is learned. It sounds good on paper but there can be consequences. What happens if target markers aren't offered but then due to how the /consideration system is implemented, many players start requesting them in the name of communication, strategy, preparation, and coordination? Would they be wrong, by default, and lapped into the typical bucket of entitled gamers that want information handed to them, or for EZ-Mode gameplay to take over? (I'm not actually posing this question to you because I don't really associate you with that kind of mentality, but it's worth bringing up anyway.) For this topic, in particular, I think it's important to think ahead and determine what levels of communication/strategy/preparation/coordination are desired.
Players are already doing all of those things with the bloodthirsty disposition without attaching any sort of /consideration requirement. The question is whether or not we/VR think that is enough. If so, great, everything is working as intended. If not, what does the target actually look like, and what kind of expectations will players have while playing through the targeted scenarios? In the end, I prefer to see information displayed through subtle means as much as possible, similar to what Stellarmind has been suggesting. At the same time, if the "tells" aren't prominent enough and players start suffering a harsh death penalty because of poorly-conveyed information, that could be bad as well. As a final point, even if target markers are offered, I would prefer that they aren't used to distinguish dispositions, just for the sake of avoiding UI clutter. If players feel that marking dispositions in obvious ways is beneficial to their survival/performance of their group then they will do it, so it's probably best if we don't incentivize it. The adjectives work well enough for me, personally.
We already know text will be a part of the Perception system. Perception (which is similar to Consider, like a ‘thought’ or ‘judgement’) will exist in Pantheon. Discluding text from Consider and then making it into a ring seems silly. Visionary Realms has already hit two birds with one stone with the Consider system they already have where text is a part of it. Really no need to change the system of which they have already done.
stellarmind said:Nephele said:I don't think target markers would be a good thing either - or rather, they can easily be overused and turn into crutches.. While they offer additional utility they can have the unintentional effect of trivializing individual awareness during combat.
to be clear: a indication for target is a must in tab/click targeting system. not to be confused with a 'marker'(a big giant red arrow, star shapes, nipples, square and fruity loops under the sun.
there's some jankiness with this thread since the definitions aren't really clear and not everyone is on the same page to the meaning.
Very good point stellarmind. it's the giant floaty glowing things I think we want to avoid :)
Syrif said:We already know text will be a part of the Perception system. Perception will exist in Pantheon. Discluding text from Consider and then making it into a ring seems silly. Visionary Realms has already hit two birds with one stone with the Consider system they already have where text is a part of it. Really no need to change what they have already done. Perhaps tuning where text appears could be interesting.
Could you point to the dev quote or relevant section of a stream that says that Perception will play a role in combat situations?
Unless they've said or shown something recently that contradicts it, the Perception system is all about non-combat information. More of a questing and lore system than anything having to do with combat mechanics. This is important, because the team has gone on record several times that they don't want players to feel obligated to become Keepers. Tieing Perception into combat information would push it towards being viewed as a requirement by players.
If they have changed that stance recently and explicitly discussed it, please provide a link so that we can all be operating on current information instead of what the team has stated in the past.
Nephele said:Syrif said:We already know text will be a part of the Perception system. Perception will exist in Pantheon. Discluding text from Consider and then making it into a ring seems silly. Visionary Realms has already hit two birds with one stone with the Consider system they already have where text is a part of it. Really no need to change what they have already done. Perhaps tuning where text appears could be interesting.
Could you point to the dev quote or relevant section of a stream that says that Perception will play a role in combat situations?
Unless they've said or shown something recently that contradicts it, the Perception system is all about non-combat information. More of a questing and lore system than anything having to do with combat mechanics. This is important, because the team has gone on record several times that they don't want players to feel obligated to become Keepers. Tieing Perception into combat information would push it towards being viewed as a requirement by players.
If they have changed that stance recently and explicitly discussed it, please provide a link so that we can all be operating on current information instead of what the team has stated in the past.
Oh, I was just pointing out that Perception and Consider are similar in nature (like thoughts/judgements) and that is most likely why both utilize text. I’m loving Visionary Realm’s current development and am quite happy with the systems they are using. The Perception and Consider are looking very good in the streams :)
Kittik's reply seems to align most to my point of view here.
Instead of gazing at the mob for information, consider your place in the world when you're about to encounter npc's. Allow yourself to be pulled into the game instead of reading npc descriptions as you encounter them.
Am I standing in a dungeon, or in front of a dangerous looking mob. Am I alone or grouped? Have I just encountered a new type of npc or a faction I didn't know before? Am I here to kill, converse or trade with this npc?
If the npc's behaviour does not change while I move closer, what does that tell me. Even without clicking the target. If the npc starts to walk towards me or brandishes their weapons, calls to arms or whatnot, what could that action tell me. Still without having targetted or hovered over the mob itself.
We already know that the disposition system will be something that is implemented in the game and that over time players will start to recognize/pick up on such dispositions.
Do I really need to the information about the npc's level or traits before I kill or try killing it? I say, no. Try it, if you die horribly, bring friends or tell others to be carefull with this encounter. Similar to what @Fragile replied, you learn and memorize about the world and it's inhabitants by trial and error, lore and from the players around you.
Friends, guildmembers, groupmembers and other community members can tell you more information about the mobs around you. This without an indepth or elaborate consider system.
I'd rather encounter a mob, where a groupmember gives me a heads up, then me targetting the mob and reading all about it.
The learn and mastering suggestion is a tasty thing to consider. How about just keeping those 'scouting' abilities to scouts and mages? Meaning give a scout a skill that enables them to get some kind of information out of them and give the mage the chance to discover a mob having magic abilities (I'm not saying, let the mage tell you all about it, just that it has magic). That for me is afterall what scouts are meant to do, scout ahead and report information. Basic information, not bring back the autobiography of the mob.
To recap, rely on the community and your own awareness and experience in the game Instead of asking the dev's to construct an elaborate rainbow design of information. (hard pass on circles for me, just target yourself or assist and see/learn what happens then)
Imagine conversations like: "You're going to X as a dwarf? You better bring friends or you'll have to go through the smugglers route." Or "Have you killed mobs or boss Y in dungeon Z? Well you'll be enemies with faction B as well now but you can go straight into C'-settlements." This all is ingame community experience transferred to other players. There will be factions so, let the communities spread the word about which faction is tied with other factions.
oneADseven said:Colored rings are already being used so that may be an opportunity (two birds, one stone) to display /con by leveraging existing functionality rather than having to create an additional UI element for nameplates.
This is probably the best method, multiple games already do this sytem. As for the target markers, they are pretty much a QoL feature that needs to be in. I'd rather not have to constantly talk or type out my targets every single pull (especially in a grind session). Other QoL features also include but are not limited to: Health of Target's Target, better functioning cast bar, group member cast bar, enemy cast bar, buff durations, debuff durations, being able to assign a main assist, cooldown numbers on hotkeys (instead of the weird square ring thing)...
You don't need target markers to communicate with your party, we did all this in EQ and not even Ventrilo was out yet and did raiding, you simply just have to say "Mez Healer" or "Mez Caster" or "Mez left" or "Mez Right" and if you want to make sure your hitting the right target their a assist button.
Plus i think intentionally forcing you to communicate with your party members is probably one of the best ideas for an mmorpg, and we simply just didn't know it til basically everyone stopped doing it, becuase i think even if the simply things like communicating stratedgy and everything else will break the ice and maybe talk about something else, so again i do understand that target markers might make it easier but it also prevents the chance of communicating via chat and therefore a huge missed opporunity that never should of been changed in the first place.
Fragile said:oneADseven said:Colored rings
This is probably the best method, multiple games already do this sytem. As for the target markers, they are pretty much a QoL feature that needs to be in. I'd rather not have to constantly talk or type out my targets every single pull (especially in a grind session). Other QoL features also include but are not limited to: Health of Target's Target, better functioning cast bar, group member cast bar, enemy cast bar, buff durations, debuff durations, being able to assign a main assist, cooldown numbers on hotkeys (instead of the weird square ring thing)...
The thing is, many of us don’t want Pantheon to be like the other games out there that exist at the moment. That’s probably part of why I think Visionary Realms is doing a great job with the systems they already have like with Perception and Consider. Talking and typing (and also commands) are more engaging and healthy for a good community and game of this nature.
starblight said:This whole conversation sounds like it would be easy to solve with an option to toggle UI coning on and off. Unless someone that wants no UI representation other than chat to be forced on all players.
113 replies and counting, yet this one sentence pretty much resolves the issue -at least the issue raised by the OP.
Fragile said:This is probably the best method, multiple games already do this sytem. As for the target markers, they are pretty much a QoL feature that needs to be in. I'd rather not have to constantly talk or type out my targets every single pull (especially in a grind session). Other QoL features also include but are not limited to: Health of Target's Target, better functioning cast bar, group member cast bar, enemy cast bar, buff durations, debuff durations, being able to assign a main assist, cooldown numbers on hotkeys (instead of the weird square ring thing)...
Don't really want players to see enemy cast bars and enemy buffs.
As for markers? I think we would be fine with none, otherwise I'd opt for short term "pings" at best over static markers.
As already stated above in this day and age it's not a problem to do a toggle option. I prefer visual representation myself - having to read the text during a heat of battle, when said text "escapes" as the dmg is dealt - especially during top tier raids can be annoying if not impossible. If someone doesn't like too many informations on the screen he should be able to turn it off if he pleases. Some people here would like to hide everything (even mob names, and let the players name them themselves .... Seriously? There were people on Terminus long before our history starts, don't you think they'd have figured names for everything by "now"?) i guess by that logic we don't even need visual representation for mobs, just wall of equations is all that is needed to play the game ...
I have been reading this thread for a while now and I have to say, if the rings are already there, why not use them? Going over information from people that played EQ as well as my own research, it seems that having a con system that utilized the rings to tell you an approximate level or what the enemy views you as, is almost a no brainer to implement. Not only does it save a person a keystroke as well as a rebinding space, it does keep people focused on the game that is on screen. You don't have to have people break away from what's on screen for a second to read text. Now, I know a lot of people are going to argue that there is nothing wrong with that, but think about it, think about how much time adds up by people having to constantly look down at a chat box, even if it's for only a few seconds. Those seconds turn into minutes, which turn into hours, and eventually you have people that miss parts of the game because they are too busy having to read a text box. Having the con system integrated into the target rings on the ground just keeps people more focused on the game on their screen rather than one small silly box. Just because "other games" have done it, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Whether they implemented it poorly or not is on them, but it is something that isn't inherently bad. If anything, because other games have done it, and are still pulling subs or people in, should mean that there is some merit to having it and that there is a rather high demand for it. if there wasn't a demand for it, and there was a high amount of people that were asking for it to be taken out, I'm sure at least one of these games would have done so already.
As for the markers, I have watched what little I could find on EQ raids and...well...it seems they spent most of their time talking to one another before even attacking one group. I'm not saying that conversation is terrible, but when it's what you do for most of your raid time, that's a problem. That's not effectively using your time to its maximum potential in getting a raid or dungeon done. Markers would cut back on this greatly and way more stuff could get done. Also, I did realize something else while doing my research, as well as from my own experience; and that is language barriers. There are going to be people that play this game that don't speak English that are going to be on the servers as well, so it won't matter how much you type in chat or communicate on ventrillo or whatever else there is to use; that person is not going to suddenly and magically know English, just because it appears in the chat box or they hear it through their headset. Having markers would make the language barrier a bit easier to deal with, for not only the person that is speaking English, but for the person that doesn't speak English either. Through using certain markers for certain classes of the enemy, you could effectively create a system that everyone understands, for example; a star above an enemy heat could mean a healer, an X could mean the one the tank is currently holding, a triangle could mean a ranger or something with a pet. I'm not saying that's how it will and should go, but as an example. Everyone, no matter what language they speak would be able to understand these symbols and know what to do from there. With this, I do think that target markers are essential.
Though, as someone pointed out here before, why not just have it as a togglable function in the options menu? It's not like we can't do that these days. I'm sure it was probably different 20 years ago, but games have evolved with what options they give their players. In' this case, I don't see why we couldn't toggle something like that on and off in the settings.
OCastitatisLilium said:I have been reading this thread for a while now and I have to say, if the rings are already there, why not use them? Going over information from people that played EQ as well as my own research, it seems that having a con system that utilized the rings to tell you an approximate level or what the enemy views you as, is almost a no brainer to implement. Not only does it save a person a keystroke as well as a rebinding space, it does keep people focused on the game that is on screen. You don't have to have people break away from what's on screen for a second to read text. Now, I know a lot of people are going to argue that there is nothing wrong with that, but think about it, think about how much time adds up by people having to constantly look down at a chat box, even if it's for only a few seconds. Those seconds turn into minutes, which turn into hours, and eventually you have people that miss parts of the game because they are too busy having to read a text box. Having the con system integrated into the target rings on the ground just keeps people more focused on the game on their screen rather than one small silly box. Just because "other games" have done it, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Whether they implemented it poorly or not is on them, but it is something that isn't inherently bad. If anything, because other games have done it, and are still pulling subs or people in, should mean that there is some merit to having it and that there is a rather high demand for it. if there wasn't a demand for it, and there was a high amount of people that were asking for it to be taken out, I'm sure at least one of these games would have done so already.
As for the markers, I have watched what little I could find on EQ raids and...well...it seems they spent most of their time talking to one another before even attacking one group. I'm not saying that conversation is terrible, but when it's what you do for most of your raid time, that's a problem. That's not effectively using your time to its maximum potential in getting a raid or dungeon done. Markers would cut back on this greatly and way more stuff could get done. Also, I did realize something else while doing my research, as well as from my own experience; and that is language barriers. There are going to be people that play this game that don't speak English that are going to be on the servers as well, so it won't matter how much you type in chat or communicate on ventrillo or whatever else there is to use; that person is not going to suddenly and magically know English, just because it appears in the chat box or they hear it through their headset. Having markers would make the language barrier a bit easier to deal with, for not only the person that is speaking English, but for the person that doesn't speak English either. Through using certain markers for certain classes of the enemy, you could effectively create a system that everyone understands, for example; a star above an enemy heat could mean a healer, an X could mean the one the tank is currently holding, a triangle could mean a ranger or something with a pet. I'm not saying that's how it will and should go, but as an example. Everyone, no matter what language they speak would be able to understand these symbols and know what to do from there. With this, I do think that target markers are essential.
When I think of other games, I can see where you are coming from. That may work well in other games and that's fine. I do believe a tenet of Pantheon is to be different from the current mmorpg market that many people are tired of now. Socialization, group communication, strategy and community-focus are going to be of very high importance in Pantheon; perhaps moreso than any mmorpg that exists at the moment. That is probably why they are against elaborate target markers/clutter. And probably why they use commands such as Consider rather than 'Consider rings' per stream. I just want to note that Consider won't be the only command in game. There will more than likely be commands or functions like /assist (tank) to help people know which target the tank has engaged (and which mobs will need CC etc). There may be commands to address CC, pets, etc as well. Commands will be fine with the language barriers that you mention; it won't be a problem as people learn to play in this immersive world. A hotbar - aka action bar (or something similar) is beneficial for language barriers as well. Anyhow, I am glad to see commands such as the Consider function in the streams rather than 'Consider rings.'
Syrif said:When I think of other games, I can see where you are coming from. That may work well in other games and that's fine. I do believe a tenet of Pantheon is to be different from the current mmorpg market that many people are tired of now. Socialization, group communication, strategy and community-focus are going to be of very high importance in Pantheon; perhaps moreso than any mmorpg that exists at the moment. That is probably why they are against elaborate target markers/clutter. And probably why they use commands such as Consider rather than 'Consider rings' per stream. I just want to note that Consider won't be the only command in game. There will more than likely be commands or functions like /assist (tank) to help people know which target the tank has engaged (and which mobs will need CC etc). There may be commands to address CC, pets, etc as well. Commands will be fine with the language barriers that you mention; it won't be a problem as people learn to play in this immersive world. A hotbar - aka action bar (or something similar) is beneficial for language barriers as well. Anyhow, I am glad to see commands such as the Consider function in the streams rather than 'Consider rings.'
I love how you completely ignored the fact that we could have it a togglable thing, but ok. I don't see what is so bad about having it be an option in the menu that you can just click on and off.
In any event, How do you know there are so many people that are tired of the MMO's that are out there now? If there were that many people that were tired of the games that are there now, they would have completely died off years ago. Sure, not all of them are at their peak anymore, but they still pull in well more than enough people to play their games. I'm genuinely curious as to why you think that having the con system integrated into a target ring won't work? What about it doesn't work? What about having them there actually breaks the game in any way? You talk about them not working, but you have refused to say how in all 5 pages of this WHY they don't work. You have stated what you think and feel on them, and that's all fine by me here, everyone has their opinion on it and it would be weird if no one had different opinions, but you still leave the major questions unanswered. You have dodged questions and statements that don't agree or completely counter your arguments...so it leads me to ask it, what about them just won't work? What about them breaks the game in any way, considering that there are quite a few here in this very thread that are proving that they are not as hated or unwanted as you are claiming.
As for the language barrier, you talk about the game being a social game and needing to communicate and interact with the people of your group and I don't mind that in the slightest, but then you go on to say that there will be other systems in place where they will have to read the text box to know what is going on, effectively removing socialization and communication from the game...so I'm trying to figure out how now having a system that encourages people of any language to be able to interact and communicate with their group, ADDS to the socialization and communication of the game as a whole. I know that games and the internet back then were younger, and that it was A LOT different back then, but this ultimately leads me back to my questions of, why can't these be in game? What about these two breaks the game as a whole? Tech for games back in the day wasn't near where it is now, why not utilize what tech we have now and apply it to pantheon. I'm not saying copy everything from all the other games, because there are some things that aren't any good, but what is inherently bad about taking something that's good and applying it here? EQ set a precedent when it came out, WoW learned and listened to what people playing it had to say and made a game that, to some, fixed what was wrong with EQ and made a slightly better game. In turn, other games have come out after that have taken what WoW had done wrong, fixed it, and made it better. What I'm getting at, is that games evolved from one another and learned from one another in order to make their game...so why can't pantheon look at other games and learn something from them and implement some things from them that they feel they could do better on, or something that they know works? Why limit Pantheon to what EQ had and ONLY what EQ had? With that you are shooting the game in the foot if you ask me.
Ultimately, I want an answer to my questions and that is:
-What about the integrated con system into the target rings breaks the game?
-What about it doesn't work?
-What about the target markers breaks the game in any way?
-What about them doesn't work?
-Why take away a system that effectively could have people from any different language background communicate on screen to promote socialization?
-How does taking away a communication system help in communication?
-Why would you want to waste most of your raid or dungeon time talking like in a chat room instead of getting as much of the raid or dungeon done as you can with what limited time some people may have?
-What about either of these systems is inherently bad?
-What about having it be something you can toggle in the options breaks the game?
-Why is having it an option that people can choose to have on something that just doesn't work?
@Ocastitatis You can judge mainstream mmorpg’s and trends over the years yourself and come to your own conclusions. I prefer group socialization within the community over toggle imo since socializing and actions are encouraged. I definitely dislike some designs that have led up to mainstream mmorpg’s at the moment. Pantheon is doing better imo. If you don’t know what an action bar is, you can look it up regarding your concern for languages. Perhaps you should ask the devs all your questions. I’d rather not argue - I shared my opinion as did you. Thanks for your thoughts.
Syrif said:@Ocastitatis You can judge mainstream mmorpg’s and trends over the years yourself and come to your own conclusions. I prefer group socialization within the community over toggle imo since socializing and actions are encouraged. I definitely dislike some designs that have led up to mainstream mmorpg’s at the moment. Pantheon is doing better imo. If you don’t know what an action bar is, you can look it up regarding your concern for languages. Perhaps you should ask the devs all your questions. I’d rather not argue - I shared my opinion as did you. Thanks for your thoughts.
well once again you haven't answered any of the questions there, but anyways.
I know what an action bar is, and you weren't taking about them before, you were taking about communicating in the text box for dungeons and raids. Of course the names and stuff of the actions will be in the players own language, but when the group goes to socialize and converse on how they want to do a pull or a raid, you still have the barrier issue with language. It doesn't matter, that's fine, you don't want ot argue and neither do I, I wasn't trying to argue, I was trying to hold an actual conversation and dialogue; but I asked questions and once again they got no answer. So if anyone else that doesn't like the integration of the con system to the target rings, or the target markers wants to answer them, they are still open.
In hindsight, I feel like I need to clarify my comments about target markers previously.
I agree that target markers (as in things that a group or raid leader can place above or around a particular target) can be useful things. However in my experience they can be overused.
I am personally very opposed to combat gameplay that revolves around a single person making decisions and then everyone else just following directions. That's not engaging gameplay nor does it involve tactical decision making or really very much in the way of player skills. While it's absolutely true that there will be some amount of "leadership" required in tougher encounters, I want to see a healthy balance of players having to make their own decisions and actively communicate with each other during fights. This is especially true in raiding.
Thus, I feel that systems such as target markers, while potentially useful, also carry with them the potential to devalue individual player skill and decision-making. That doesn't mean I'm adamantly opposed to them, but I think they should probably be fairly minimal and narrowly focused.
I hope that helps explain my previous comments.
Please, just please. A toggle is NOT the solution to every problem when players aren't agreeing. The game has to be set to standarts that everyone will share and not be a nitpick or toggling in/off what you want to see or not to the point everyone plays a different game. We have to have a base game that fills needs and only offer choices for details.
The consider system, if lightened to a single "target and get instantly all info you need" is not solved by a toggle. Because the problem is not solely on UI clutter or visual overwhelming, it's on ease of information access. If it becomes tief to solely targetting (ala wow : Level indicated, hostility indicated) it won't be a "choice", because it's faster and more optimal while requiring less personal actions to do so, and it will just be mandatory.
No one will choose to have a peg leg on purpose, but if it's the base system it means everyone will run starting with the same conveniency/inconveniency.
So no : Toggles are not the ultimate answer because it seems to make everyone happy while it doesn't, and taint the game with a lack of decisions from the dev team.