Hey, long time supporter and fan of the game here. I would have liked to been able to ask this during one of the recent streams but I unfortunately was not able to be present during stream time, so hoping to see what the devs / reps think about this.
So I noticed in the recent streams that players still have to press a hotkey when targeting a mob to consider it, that is to get information about what level the mob is and its attitude towards the player. Obviously, this should be very familiar to anyone who played Everquest, but while it worked fine in EQ I would consider it a holdover from a different time before more modern treatments were used. My question is this: is having to press a keystroke and getting a chat message about the mob's level / disposition the plan for the final game, or is this just something that's still present because the game is still in pre-alpha? This is a pretty minor point, and I don't think more information needs to be given to the player such as the mob's exact level, but I would think it would make sense to give the same information - the mob's comparative level range and disposition - through the UI automatically, be it via a color coding in the nameplate or some sort of icon system on the nameplate or target window.
Basically I'm just asking if we can get the same info that the consider system currently gives automatically via the UI and save the player a keystroke every time they target a new mob.
Thanks!
Heebs said:Hey, long time supporter and fan of the game here. I would have liked to been able to ask this during one of the recent streams but I unfortunately was not able to be present during stream time, so hoping to see what the devs / reps think about this.
So I noticed in the recent streams that players still have to press a hotkey when targeting a mob to consider it, that is to get information about what level the mob is and its attitude towards the player. Obviously, this should be very familiar to anyone who played Everquest, but while it worked fine in EQ I would consider it a holdover from a different time before more modern treatments were used. My question is this: is having to press a keystroke and getting a chat message about the mob's level / disposition the plan for the final game, or is this just something that's still present because the game is still in pre-alpha? This is a pretty minor point, and I don't think more information needs to be given to the player such as the mob's exact level, but I would think it would make sense to give the same information - the mob's comparative level range and disposition - through the UI automatically, be it via a color coding in the nameplate or some sort of icon system on the nameplate or target window.
Basically I'm just asking if we can get the same info that the consider system currently gives automatically via the UI and save the player a keystroke every time they target a new mob.
Thanks!
than go to keybindings and switch it to RMB or where ever else that makes it more comfortable and have it work that way., unless if i misunderstood the entire question, but I'm sure either way switching it to make it more comfortable to "consider" the mob can be quite painless.
@Heebs I am glad someone asked the question. I had also wondered what the long-term plan was.
I will live with such a system if it is in the final release and will think very little of it, as I am sure I am not alone in thinking the majority of the game has what I am looking for and no other game even comes close. So please refrain from telling me to play WoW.
I like to have my comfortable keys bound to more important things like abilities and this includes my mouse buttons. I also prefer to have my chat windows down to the bare minimum of use and space. This seems like something that could be done differently while still maintaining the objective of the current system, that would not use a precious key or chat space.
As I understood, his primary issue is how it's being telegraphed on our screens.
Like this (though with such info above heads of all nerby mobs):
in opposition to this:
...or this:
... and the info being available before we even click on the monster to inspect it. That's QoL feature that I certainly wouldn't mind, but I can already hear screams of people, which said there are already to many details in the UI.
well, don't know what to you ya than, maybe you'll find a new key you'll like to hit to consider what level the mob is to you so you will know how to engage it.
I understood the question, I just don't see why we need extra clues, like scanning over the mob and get a color coded border over his body so i know what level he is to me, it a simply push of the button to achieve the same thing, now i can see how it could be slightly annoying to people that they have to consider a mob, but i think it will be something people will simply just get used to and don't need a system that automatically tells you their level simply by scanning your mouse over the mob, much like we don't need ! marks over quest givers.
Riahuf22 said:well, don't know what to you ya than, maybe you'll find a new key you'll like to hit to consider what level the mob is to you so you will know how to engage it.
I belive he wants basic monster information to be shown as soon as monsters are in our range - above their heads, before we even click on them.
Hegenox said:Riahuf22 said:well, don't know what to you ya than, maybe you'll find a new key you'll like to hit to consider what level the mob is to you so you will know how to engage it.
I belive he wants basic monster information to be shown as soon as monster are in our range - above their heads, before we even click on ithem.
Nah we don't need things like that, the Consider system is better in my eyes, remember no hand holding in this game if you want to know how he considers you, or to know what level he is, check him out and see what the system tells you.
Part of the problem you run into is information overload. If all information is presented all the time, instead of when requested, then your screen will be filled with information instead of being filled the world of Terminus. I'm not against having some auto-consider method, but I'm not sure it's necessary if it just adds clutter; especially since once I know it's "consider level" I don't need it on my screen anymore.
@Heebs I think that this is a good question as well.
If I'm not mistaken even EverQuest eventually incorporated this system into their targeting system to make things a bit more user-friendly. It would definitely help the pullers in the group with quicker CC decisions based on mob levels and the chance that their spell would not be resisted.
@VR There is also another question that I have regarding target consideration and aggro. That question being will there be a way to see which mobs are aggro linked to each other when targeting them be that just in general, through growth in the perception system, or by some other means. Outside of the apparent aggro link when fighting grouped mobs, this system would help with patrol pulling and around the corner CC attempts.
@Baldur Well aggro radius or which mobs are linked is not information that's already available to the client.
However, a mob's level in comparison to the player and its disposition towards the player IS available to the client - you just have to push a button to view it.
That simple fact means that even if it is not part of the default UI, unless VR takes an agressive stance against UI mods (which they have said they will not), it will be available in custom UI mods. It's essentially a QOL UI improvement that does not glean any information that isn't already available to the client, it just presents that information in a more convenient way.
And yes, to anyone expressing confusion as to what I'm asking, I'm asking whether this info will be displayed in the nameplate or target UI elements as part of the default UI. The nameplate is the healthbar and name that hovers above a monster's head. I know WoW, GW2, and FFXIV all present the monster's level and hostility as information to the user included in the nameplate. For simplicity I'll only link a WoW screenshot here:
So in the screenshot, you can see the monster's level is displayed next to its healthbar, and because the healthbar is red in color, we know the monster is hostile. Green is friendly, yellow is neutral, etc.
Obviously with Pantheon, since the exact level is unknown, you couldn't display a numerical value, but you could display the same color coding used in the consider system (green - low level, blue - slightly lower, white - even, yellow - slightly higher, red - much higher) as the color of the mob's health bar, and then have an icon next to the healthbar that indicates hostility. But the point is it could still easily be done and would be far more accessible than targeting and considering every single mob.
Hegenox said:I belive he wants basic monster information to be shown as soon as monsters are in our range - above their heads, before we even click on them.
Hegenox said:I'm quite sure that level of monsters in comparison to ours will be represented by colors and whether ot not we see names of mobs above their heads will be toggled in the options.
Oh have they said that somewhere and I just missed it? In the most recent streams, mob healthbars were just always green, like this:
If they just haven't added color-coding on healthbars yet cause it's still pre-alpha, that makes sense. I was just wondering if it's going to be added eventually to the default UI.
I think they've mentioned it in one of the streams, but I'm not 100% sure. EQ has it, it's a QoL that doesn't make the game less challenging, but saves us from irritating situations of being one shoted from a mob we didn't knew was beyond our league - I see no reason why they wouldn't do that.
This is how it worked in EQOA. Very simple and effective. If you target an NPC, a ring will appear near the center of its mass, as can be seen in the screenshot below. The color of that ring represents the relative con-level. At the bottom left of the screen, you can see the blue face. The color of that face determined whether an NPC was an ally (blue), neutral (white), or KOS (red). Modern UI would likely allow you to reposition the target window pane.
Here is a picture of a player targeting an NPC that is KOS, almost dead, and green-con:
Targeting an NPC is already considered an action so it's not like the information is being broadcast without rhyme or reason. The idea that I would have to target an NPC, then press another button to "consider it" ... and then have to read that information in a text box ... I'm glad that wasn't a thing back in 2003 when EQOA launched. I'd like to spend more time focusing on the world and less time reading through a chat log for basic information.
Suggesting that this sort of QoL would be considered handholding is pretty farfetched. Just imagine that there was an old game with a reputation that was very anti-handholding. This game didn't display the health bars of the NPC you were targeting. The game knew that this information was important, though, so it gave you access to a special "detect health" key, that once pressed, would display the current amount of health of your target in your text box. In keeping with the spirit of arbitrary challenge and anti-handholding, players would have to think about the numeric value (not percentage-based) that was displayed rather than being able to see an actual health bar. If they wanted to reassess the situation at any point in time, they would have to press the "detect health" key again and then look at their text box for an updated numeric value. This was way back in the day before games were ruined by handholding.
To be fair, I think it's important to acknowledge the point that Kelenin made in their post. I'm not a fan of seeing the health bars of every NPC within a given range without having to target them directly. That does indeed add to the screen clutter so there is a bit of a balancing act here. Since this is a tab-target game, allowing the tab mechanism to display the basic information of the NPC you are targeting (such as relative con level and allied/neutral/KOS distinctions) seems like a good compromise since it's attached to an action. That may seem a bit contradictive to the previous paragraph but I think emphasizing macro awareness where it makes sense can be a good thing, the same way I look at QoL.
The EQ client had colored targeting rings 15 years ago(which were stupid and unnecessary).
I can understand that having to actually target a mob to gain it's info could be a serious PITA to someone already engaged in fighting one mob - like a tank - who then sees adds arriving and needs to gauge their danger. Simply having to change target -and then change it back -would risk someone hitting 'main assist' at the wrong moment and then attacking the adds that the CC is now attempting to mez.
Not to mention that the Dire Lord has an ability "Provoking Phantoms" that builds hate "The longer you stay focused on the same enemy in combat". Needing to target newly arriving mobs to ID them really undercuts that ability.
I think one possible solution might be to let you 'consider' a mob by mousing over it. This would also be very useful to the CC in the group, who needs to select their targets out of an advancing group of mobs very quickly.
I like the colored consider-system via command, and I love VR’s design. I like the sense of wonder; it’s looking very good.
Anyway, I do NOT want something like WoW where it says “elite” next to their name or something silly like that. And the ring around the mob from “eqOnlineAdventures” remind me of kindergarten! LOL no thx! Once again, thank goodness VR is designing this game. ;)
oneADseven said:This is how it worked in EQOA. Very simple and effective. If you target an NPC, a ring will appear near the center of its mass, as can be seen in the screenshot below.
With all due respect, I can’t tell if this post is serious or not. Anyhow, I think this would look pretty absurd in a game like Pantheon Lol. I am so glad Visionary Realms is designing Pantheon. =)
I wouldn't want colored nameplates based on con, it would be like a rainbow unicorn wonderland on the screen all the time.
I would not be opposed a mouseOver type system in addition to a key bind system. But it should be something the player should have to interact with to get the information.
It changes how you run through an area, if you have to hover or "con" each mob your going by to ensure safe passage that takes time and strategy, where as rainbow colored nameplates you just follow the green pathway, especially if agro range is affected by con.
It's an interesting question with a lot of repercussion.
Whilst I often found the /con system in EQ to be annoying, it kind of reproduced the need for caution and care when out in the wild. It was an analog for 'hunting' in some ways - it was literally 'considering' the monster before taking it on. If you jumped into combat and forgot to /con or perhaps got complacent because previous /cons were all the same, you could get a nasty surprise.
Personally I would like to see the system updated and improved to be a more immersive and meaningful system.
I would like something related to both the perception system and some kind of mastery system. I would also like to see it implemented to be quite an active skill.
I imagine having to get within a certain range and have line-of-sight to be able to activate it and I imagine getting differing levels of information. This distance and detail would vary with perception and creature familiarity, perhaps dangerously close to aggro range if you are unfamiliar or unperceptive.
Jothany said:I can understand that having to actually target a mob to gain it's info could be a serious PITA to someone already engaged in fighting one mob - like a tank - who then sees adds arriving and needs to gauge their danger. Simply having to change target -and then change it back -would risk someone hitting 'main assist' at the wrong moment and then attacking the adds that the CC is now attempting to mez.
Not to mention that the Dire Lord has an ability "Provoking Phantoms" that builds hate "The longer you stay focused on the same enemy in combat". Needing to target newly arriving mobs to ID them really undercuts that ability.
I think one possible solution might be to let you 'consider' a mob by mousing over it. This would also be very useful to the CC in the group, who needs to select their targets out of an advancing group of mobs very quickly.
Solid points to consider. I have always been a tank main and having to cycle through NPC's to gauge them never really bothered me. Having to press an additional button after tab-targeting or clicking on them with a mouse would be really annoying, though, especially if players are forced to then read through a text box for color-coordinated information that could be conveyed more subtly. The main assist functionality is highly situational and very rarely do you use the main tank for it. It's the kind of thing that you coordinate to prevent the problem you brought up (players accidentally breaking mezz) -- if a player is fulfilling the MA role then there is a level of trust and responsibility that goes along with that.
As far as "Provoking Phantoms" goes, the deepening threat component might persist even if you do switch targets. The "focused on the same enemy" language could be speaking about that ability in specific rather than the attention span of the dire lord and the NPC they have targeted.
Looking back at the screenshot that Heebs shared, the colored ring functionality that I previously mentioned seems like it would be very easy to implement.
You can see a red circle beneath the "Bloodthirsty Forgotten Deadblade" which more likely than not represents the "offensive target." The blue ring probably represents the "defensive target." I think an ideal situation for me would be to change the dynamic of this slightly. Instead of the offensive target always having a red circle, the color would vary based on the relative con of the NPC being targeted. Instead of the defensive target always having a blue circle, it would be a different color that doesn't already belong to the "con-level matrix" -- so maybe black, pink, purple, or something else that isn't red, orange, yellow, white, blue or green.
oneADseven said:I have nothing against telling the player what's a Hostile or Friendly Mob, either way the player will know once they walk up to the mob whether they are friend or foe. But what i do have an issue with is telling the player everything about the target, I feel like implementing something like that would make this game more themepark'esc. If a player wants to know more information about a certain type of mob outside of them being hostile or friend then they should have to rely on another player telling them what that mob is weak against and strong against and even the mobs level. Why you might ask? simply put it would give players even more incentive to rely on each other and it would also make sense in an immersive sense since you cannot tell such information like what level a mob is or even what they are strong/ weak against by looking at it unless you are specialised in that field, which i don't see how someone like a Warrior or Dire Lord would be, a Ranger or Druid and maybe even a Wizard though would make sense.
You can see a red circle beneath the "Bloodthirsty Forgotten Deadblade" which more likely than not represents the "offensive target." The blue ring probably represents the "defensive target." I think an ideal situation for me would be to change the dynamic of this slightly. Instead of the offensive target always having a red circle, the color would vary based on the relative con of the NPC being targeted. Instead of the defensive target always having a blue circle, it would be a different color that doesn't already belong to the "con-level matrix" -- so maybe black, pink, purple, or something else that isn't red, orange, yellow, white, blue or green.
znushu said:But what i do have an issue with is telling the player everything about the target, I feel like implementing something like that would make this game more themepark'esc. If a player wants to know more information about a certain type of mob outside of them being hostile or friend then they should have to rely on another player telling them what that mob is weak against and strong against and even the mobs level.
Is it easy to implement a "this mob is level 80 and hostile"? yes.
Is having something like that ingame would make navigating the world easier? Yes.
But should all players be able to know information like what level a mob is? No.
To be fair, I wasn't asking for any sort of special information (like what a mob is weak/strong against) -- the relative con level is purposely made accessible. You target a mob, press a button, and that information is conveyed through your chat-box. This function appears to be available to all players regardless of level/class/race and has no cooldown, resource cost, or range. The premise of my post was based around the idea of conveying this purposely-made-accessible information in a more subtle manner. There is no need for an extra keystroke, or for players to divert their eyes away from their target to observe color-coordinated text in a log.
Objectively speaking, the /consider function appears to be an action that translates basic information about an NPC that you are focusing on. If I use my eyes to target something in real life, the "consideration" process is pretty seamless. I don't look at something intently, decide to "consider" it, and then take my eyes off of it to go through the mental process of evaluating the information observed. Propagating this information in a chat-box is somewhat jarring to my immersion. It basically implies that I have to read a chat box to comprehend what my character's eyes are seeing, and how that observation translates to the brain of my character.
Now if we're talking about some sort of "scan" ability where extra information like strength/weakness comes into play, I am in agreement with you. I started a thread on a similar topic a few years back: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6632/scan-ability