ad7: the consider-system already looks very good per the streams. Why change it? Polishing/tuning is fine, but No Changes needed imo. I’m excited for learning more about the perception system! The ‘rings around the npc’ you show just seem to kill that sense of immersion and higher wonder for some reason. Actually, it seems it would be at odds with perception and the gameplay that VR is going for with Pantheon. *Think design*
Here’s to the new year - onward and upward!
rings around the NPC should be a feature you can toggle on/off. That way people who want immersion can still have it. I like those rings, though. As a caster, I need to make sure that I am targetting the right mob, and those rings help achieve that end. The last thing you want is to cast on a mob you haven't engaged yet when in the middle of an already tough fight.
I don't agree that staring at a chat box to comprehend what my eyes see is immersive and wondrous. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where if I type /dance -- it is somehow more immersive and wondrous for me to read through my chat log and see "Oneadseven begins dancing" than it would be to just see my character actually dancing. The point is that the /con system trains players to associate a color with the relative difficulty of the mob they are targeting. Making it a more seamless and intuitive process (rather than clunky and tedious) is a great example of polishing/tuning. Purposely targeting an NPC is weighty enough of an action to qualify as "considering" it, in my opinion.
randomrob82 said:rings around the NPC should be a feature you can toggle on/off. That way people who want immersion can still have it. I like those rings, though. As a caster, I need to make sure that I am targetting the right mob, and those rings help achieve that end. The last thing you want is to cast on a mob you haven't engaged yet when in the middle of an already tough fight.
This thread is about the consider-system. Meaning, the difficulty of the mob. Now on a side note regarding what you were describing: that is what /assist the group tank is for. To help casters like you (or the enchanter needing to mez) manage 'targeting' when fighting.
oneADseven said:The point is that the /con system trains players to associate a color with the relative difficulty of the mob they are targeting.
Yes - and that already exists in the /consider system that Visionary Realms currently has. Again, why change it? What you suggest with /con rings is too themeparky for this kind of game. No Changes needed on this imo.
oneADseven said:Making it a more seamless and intuitive process (rather than clunky and tedious) is a great example of polishing/tuning.
That's not polishing/tuning lol. What you are describing is *changing* the /consider system into a ring around the target. That may have worked in that PlayStation game you referred to - OnlineAdventures. But, such changes are dangerous for a good mmorpg, and they wouldn't be good for Pantheon. It's also these kinds of changes that led to the ruin and decline of games like WoW and Everquest (especially the period of Everquest that Brad was no longer a part of). I get that you may have liked that system in that PlayStation game (eqOnlineAdventures), but that system is at odds that with the immersive, mmorpg gameplay that Visionary Realms is going for with Pantheon. Visionary Realms will be putting perception, depth, and wonder back into an mmorpg similar to how it existed at one time. Some people will love it, while some may dislike it - And that's fine.
I don't think requiring the user press the 'C' key to get information that could easily be displayed on the healthbar makes the game any more challenging or fun or immersive. It doesn't go against the tenets of the game at all. It just makes the UI more robust and less of a pain to interact with, and I don't see how it's any different from displaying the healthbar above the mob's head which they're already doing instead of requiring the user to press a keystroke to determine how hurt the mob looks like it's 1994 and we're playing a MUD.
WoW fell off because of mechanics that ruined the community by skipping social aspects of the game. Also it's 15 years old and still pulling in a big crowd, it's just down from its peak. WoW had these UI features from the beta in 2004. Being able to see a mob's level without pressing the 'C' key did not cause the decline of WoW.
Syrif said:That's not polishing/tuning lol. What you are describing is *changing* the /consider system into a ring around the target. That may have worked in that PlayStation game you referred to - OnlineAdventures. But, such changes are dangerous for a good mmorpg, and they wouldn't be good for Pantheon. It's also these kinds of changes that led to the ruin and decline of games like WoW and Everquest (especially the period of Everquest that Brad was no longer a part of). I get that you may have liked that system in that PlayStation game (eqOnlineAdventures), but that system is at odds that with the immersive, mmorpg gameplay that Visionary Realms is going for with Pantheon. Visionary Realms will be putting perception, depth, and wonder back into an mmorpg similar to how it existed at one time. Some people will love it, while some may dislike it - And that's fine.
Taking color out of a chatbox and putting it into a colored ring that already exists (for the sole purpose of conveying information) is dangerous? This is the kind of change that leads to the ruin and decline of an MMORPG, wouldn't be good for Pantheon, and is at odds with immersive gameplay? This seems like a pretty hot take on things.
Heebs said:I don't think requiring the user press the 'C' key to get information that could easily be displayed on the healthbar makes the game any more challenging or fun or immersive.
And neither is having a /consider command on hotbar 'clunky' or 'tedious'. It is literally pressing a button Lol. The /consider system that VR has is already good. Again, why change it?
Heebs said:Being able to see a mob's level without pressing the 'C' key did not cause the decline of WoW.
No one ever said pressing a 'C' key caused the decline of WoW. What was said is accumulated changes like these caused the ruin and decline of WoW, as gameplay was eventually altered (duh). And the persistent whining/complaining of a tiny minority of people for Changes played a role as well. This happened to Everquest too. It's no surprise that WoW's only way to realistically reverse substantial subscription losses was to bring back Classic servers - it's actually pretty sad lol. And for the record, considering a mob is a mechanic. One of many. Visionary Realm's /consider system is already good. Why change it?
oneADseven said:Taking color out of a chatbox and putting it into a colored ring that already exists (for the sole purpose of conveying information) is dangerous? This is the kind of change that leads to the ruin and decline of an MMORPG, wouldn't be good for Pantheon, and is at odds with immersive gameplay? This seems like a pretty hot take on things.
One starts to notice things after 20+ years of poor management, poor decision-making, and poor design on behalf of mmorpg's. I'm glad that Brad/Visionary Realms understood and understands this: it is dangerous to change what is already good in a good mmorpg (expansions should enhance, not change a good game). One only needs to look at what happened to WoW and latter-Everquest. There are others too. Anyway, Visionary Realm's /consider system is already good. So, why change it?
If I remember correctly there was a little more to it (in EQ) than simple hostile/non-hostile.
There was a difference between a hostile mob who was "ready to attack" vs a hostile mob that looked at you "threateningly" where the latter meant the mob had a smaller aggro range and would be less likely to attack at all if it was a certain number of levels lower than the player.
Syrif said:One starts to notice things after 20+ years of poor management, poor decision-making, and poor design on behalf of mmorpg's. I'm glad that Brad/Visionary Realms understood and understands this: it is dangerous to change what is already good in a good mmorpg (expansions should enhance, not change a good game). One only needs to look at what happened to WoW and latter-Everquest. There are others too. Anyway, Visionary Realm's /consider system is already good. So, why change it?
You are saying that the current /consider system is already good. The current system revolves around the idea of allowing players to press a button to consider an NPC which then returns a set of color-coordinated data to their chat-box. I will agree that pressing a button to have a color appear on your screen is already good. The point I have been making is that the process of this information exchange could be made more subtle, in such a way that a player can actually focus on what they are targeting rather than having to divert their attention to a separate chat-box. I am not suggesting that anything should be fundamentally changed. Press Button > Produce Color. You're making a mountain out of a molehill with these claims of ruination and decline.
Iksar said:If I remember correctly there was a little more to it (in EQ) than simple hostile/non-hostile.
There was a difference between a hostile mob who was "ready to attack" vs a hostile mob that looked at you "threateningly" where the latter meant the mob had a smaller aggro range and would be less likely to attack at all if it was a certain number of levels lower than the player.
That's a great point Iksar! This reminds me of why factions should (and do) matter. I imagine that factions will be very much a part of the game in Pantheon.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #aradune
i'd keep all the information hidden XD
no damage numbers, no levels, no pre threat assessing. just a health bar of the target.
i agree with less is more here. really don't need all the clutter.
if the mob starts wooping mah butt, i run.
if it seems i can be competitive, i fight.
make players assess what's going on based on what the mob is doing vs a text or color ring. kind of like how they give cues for a pre lightning strike. i think we can all agree it's way more immersive than a giant red painting on the floor.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:One starts to notice things after 20+ years of poor management, poor decision-making, and poor design on behalf of mmorpg's. I'm glad that Brad/Visionary Realms understood and understands this: it is dangerous to change what is already good in a good mmorpg (expansions should enhance, not change a good game). One only needs to look at what happened to WoW and latter-Everquest. There are others too. Anyway, Visionary Realm's /consider system is already good. So, why change it?
You are saying that the current /consider system is already good. The current system revolves around the idea of allowing players to press a button to consider an NPC which then returns a set of color-coordinated data to their chat-box. I will agree that pressing a button to have a color appear on your screen is already good. The point I have been making is that the process of this information exchange could be made more subtle, in such a way that a player can actually focus on what they are targeting rather than having to divert their attention to a separate chat-box. I am not suggesting that anything should be fundamentally changed. Press Button > Produce Color. You're making a mountain out of a molehill with these claims of ruination and decline.
Pressing a button is more engaging than seeing a /consider ring around a mob. So, we can agree to disagree. More engaging is the better route, so I think Visionary Realm's /consider system is definitely good. Heck - what haven't they made that's good! :) Also, factions will most likely matter in this game.. on a level more in depth than just "hostile" vs "non-hostile" as was pointed out. Visionary Realm's /consider system helps with that. No need for it to be Changed since it is ofc already good and suits Pantheon. I enjoyed reading your thoughts though: I can see how those /con rings worked in the PlayStation game of OnlineAdventures that you mentioned, but probably wouldn't work out well over here.
Hegenox said:Syrif said:Hegenox said:Consider option doesn't pose a threat to anything.
Yep! The /consider system Visionary Realms has is already good, so why change it?
Let me think ... which one should I choose?
I would choose which one is more Engaging. So neither "good" nor "better." Actions, commands, and hotbars are more engaging than seeing a consider-ring around a mob. Factions will very much matter in Pantheon from what we've gathered. VR's /consider system will help out with that. Why change what's awesome.
Your green sign needs an arrow pointing upward that says "Engaging." :)
stellarmind said:i'd keep all the information hidden XD
no damage numbers, no levels, no pre threat assessing. just a health bar of the target.
i agree with less is more here. really don't need all the clutter.
if the mob starts wooping mah butt, i run.
if it seems i can be competitive, i fight.
make players assess what's going on based on what the mob is doing vs a text or color ring. kind of like how they give cues for a pre lightning strike. i think we can all agree it's way more immersive than a giant red painting on the floor.
Stellar! :) I think you would have liked Sullon Zek pvp back in the day. I'm looking forward to both pve and pvp in Pantheon. So exciting! :)
Syrif said:Pressing a button is more engaging than seeing a /consider ring around a mob. So, we can agree to disagree.
I addressed this several times:
oneADseven said:
You can see a red circle beneath the "Bloodthirsty Forgotten Deadblade" which more likely than not represents the "offensive target." The blue ring probably represents the "defensive target." I think an ideal situation for me would be to change the dynamic of this slightly. Instead of the offensive target always having a red circle, the color would vary based on the relative con of the NPC being targeted. Instead of the defensive target always having a blue circle, it would be a different color that doesn't already belong to the "con-level matrix" -- so maybe black, pink, purple, or something else that isn't red, orange, yellow, white, blue or green.
oneADseven said:To be fair, I wasn't asking for any sort of special information (like what a mob is weak/strong against) -- the relative con level is purposely made accessible. You target a mob, press a button, and that information is conveyed through your chat-box. This function appears to be available to all players regardless of level/class/race and has no cooldown, resource cost, or range. The premise of my post was based around the idea of conveying this purposely-made-accessible information in a more subtle manner. There is no need for an extra keystroke, or for players to divert their eyes away from their target to observe color-coordinated text in a log.
Objectively speaking, the /consider function appears to be an action that translates basic information about an NPC that you are focusing on. If I use my eyes to target something in real life, the "consideration" process is pretty seamless. I don't look at something intently, decide to "consider" it, and then take my eyes off of it to go through the mental process of evaluating the information observed. Propagating this information in a chat-box is somewhat jarring to my immersion. It basically implies that I have to read a chat box to comprehend what my character's eyes are seeing, and how that observation translates to the brain of my character.
oneADseven said:I don't agree that staring at a chat box to comprehend what my eyes see is immersive and wondrous. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where if I type /dance -- it is somehow more immersive and wondrous for me to read through my chat log and see "Oneadseven begins dancing" than it would be to just see my character actually dancing. The point is that the /con system trains players to associate a color with the relative difficulty of the mob they are targeting. Making it a more seamless and intuitive process (rather than clunky and tedious) is a great example of polishing/tuning. Purposely targeting an NPC is weighty enough of an action to qualify as "considering" it, in my opinion.
oneADseven said:You are saying that the current /consider system is already good. The current system revolves around the idea of allowing players to press a button to consider an NPC which then returns a set of color-coordinated data to their chat-box. I will agree that pressing a button to have a color appear on your screen is already good. The point I have been making is that the process of this information exchange could be made more subtle, in such a way that a player can actually focus on what they are targeting rather than having to divert their attention to a separate chat-box. I am not suggesting that anything should be fundamentally changed. Press Button > Produce Color. You're making a mountain out of a molehill with these claims of ruination and decline.
If you aren't considering the idea that pressing a button to target an NPC should be qualified as "pressing a button" in this context then I don't really know what to tell you. Nobody is asking for rings to randomly appear around mobs on the screen. It should be the result of an action, or "pressing a button" in this sense. The definition of "target" (as a verb) is as follows: "select as an object of attention" -- the implication is that you are already "considering" something when you fulfill the more weighty action of "targeting."
oneAD7: I get what you are saying, but merely targeting is still less engaging than target-action, command, hotbar. Plus, it's looking like the in-depth faction system will matter with VR's /consider system. Visionary Realm's systems are awesome, so why change it. I can see how the targeted consider-rings worked in the PlayStation Online Adventures that you mentioned though, but that was a very different type of game than this. Anyhow, your thoughts are appreciated even if we disagree.
I liked the /con information appearing in text because it put it in the same place on the screen no matter where the NPC was in my FoV. By using TAB (or some other key combo) to progress through nearest/next NPC I could quickly assertain the status of NPC in range.
For me, if the important con information, that of level color (grey, green, blue, etc) and faction standing (scowling, threatening, etc) were to be moved onto the target window how would it do that? You need to translate text into something else. The lettering of the name can change to the /con color easily enough. But the faction standing? How might you best represent it such that it is easily seen and quickly understood? Another colored box somewhere in that windowframe?
In the end, the important thing for me is that the information remain in a position on the screen that I dictate.
Vandraad said:I liked the /con information appearing in text because it put it in the same place on the screen no matter where the NPC was in my FoV. By using TAB (or some other key combo) to progress through nearest/next NPC I could quickly assertain the status of NPC in range.
For me, if the important con information, that of level color (grey, green, blue, etc) and faction standing (scowling, threatening, etc) were to be moved onto the target window how would it do that? You need to translate text into something else. The lettering of the name can change to the /con color easily enough. But the faction standing? How might you best represent it such that it is easily seen and quickly understood? Another colored box somewhere in that windowframe?
In the end, the important thing for me is that the information remain in a position on the screen that I dictate.
But the faction standing? How might you best represent it such that it is easily seen and quickly understood?
I would guess something like a guage Where center would be "Indifferent" " -----|+++++ " or" -----|+++++ " under the name or something. (Of course much nicer than just + and -, but you get the idea
But I would still want it to be something you have to target or mouseover the mob to see. You couldn't look at a crowd of mobs and know all their cons
[edit]
Question for the people that would rather coning require hitting a key and having the result entered into a text window.
Is this a preference you personally would like or is it something you want to make everyone use? The reason I ask is some QoL features need to be removed form all players while others do not. An example of something that I feel would be bad would be showing the exact level. It would be important to not allow anyone to see a mobs level and not allow it to be toggled on and off.
I personally feel this is something that would be safe to let people pick their preferred way of conning a mob.
So, there is no confusion as there has been a few different examples used to show how this could be done differently, this is what I would like. I would like to be able to con a mob by targeting it. The targeting it would be my keystroke. For displaying the result, I am a little less picky on how it looks as long as it is not in my text window. The ways this can be done are many but here are some examples:
I could see reasons for a lot of details in the con system that might be important for quests or other out of combat situations. At this point I have no issue using the current C key to display in my text window.
Fulton said:But I would still want it to be something you have to target or mouseover the mob to see. You couldn't look at a crowd of mobs and know all their cons
Correct. It is very important that is should only apply to the one directly targeted NPC. With the disposition system, with one (or some) of them seeing through stealth, or invis/invis to undead or other such things that could affect their standing towards you, having to target each one to really see how the view you keeps the danger factor. Seeing at a glance how every NPC in view perceives you just makes it too easy to avoid those that would cause you problems.
