Riahuf22 said:oneADseven said:A question that has been answered dozens of times on this thread. Appearance slots simulate the idea of equipping something that fits the way you want to look. Appearance slots do not artificially alter the color of a white shirt to a red shirt. They override the graphic of what gets displayed. This is why they get their very own slot that has the word "appearance" attached to it for simple understanding.
thats a fancy way of saying it turns a white shirt into a red shirt to me? I mean did it stay the same color or did it chnage into a color of your choosing?
There is nothing fancy about it ... that is why I called it a "simple understanding." Appearance slots do not change the color of armor. You are just making that up and running with it. If they did alter the appearance of the item (rather than what is displayed on the character) then the white shirt would be red after they take it off and/or trade it to another player. The white shirt never changes colors. It is just hidden beneath whatever is being worn in the corresponding appearance slot for the chest.
LOL how about the only class that can make armor & appearances look like something else they are not is the ENCHANTER! There we go, only the Enchanter gets false appearances, BINGO BONGO problem solved!!
Alyonyah said:*blinks* What the hell happened in this thread?
If you sift through the pages there are some good ideas and good points and at least 10 pages of circle arguments about to opposing positions. I'd avoid the circle arguments regardless of which side you are on as its just frustrating and disruptive to any forward conversation.
Basic points in no order and with no value judgement are:
All gear should have a look when dropped and that what you are wearing for mechanical reasons should be the only visible option.
Cosmetic gear is ok so long as each view can turn off the cosmetic items that other characters are wearing.
Cosmetic options are good for the over all personal investment into the game world.
Cosmetic options are important to certain subgroups of players.
Having other players have the option of turning off your cosmetic gear is a violation of personal expression and is very creepy.
In PvP visual cues from gear is important in assessing the danger of the other character.
Knowing your group mates are actually strong enough to face the content you are attempting is important and in other games the visual cues from gear were a primary way to do that.
No one wants the Pizza Box wielding warrior in a diaper with big orange sunglasses.
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:oneADseven said:A question that has been answered dozens of times on this thread. Appearance slots simulate the idea of equipping something that fits the way you want to look. Appearance slots do not artificially alter the color of a white shirt to a red shirt. They override the graphic of what gets displayed. This is why they get their very own slot that has the word "appearance" attached to it for simple understanding.
thats a fancy way of saying it turns a white shirt into a red shirt to me? I mean did it stay the same color or did it chnage into a color of your choosing?
There is nothing fancy about it ... that is why I called it a "simple understanding." Appearance slots do not change the color of armor. You are just making that up and running with it. If they did alter the appearance of the item (rather than what is displayed on the character) then the shirt would continue to be red after they take it off and/or trade it to another player. The white shirt never changes colors. It is just hidden beneath whatever is being worn in the corresponding appearance slot for the chest.
IT analogy for something else, white shirt (brastplate of snakepit), red shirt (Breastplate of Almighty) its all the same freaking thing, you are ultimately changing something appearance
Or magically chnaging a [piece of gear without actually taking if off into sometihng else wihtout actually putting it on, see how i litterally said it the same and and it kept the same meaning as before, that becuase it is the same
Maybe if @dispos didn't try to use an analogy that backfired terribly we wouldn't even be talking about lipstick, or shirts, or pants but since he/she did I used it.
Maybe you should understand some people simply don't want to see your cosmetic gear, maybe you should understand not everyone is the same, maybe you should understand that even though the toggle might not make you happy it is a compromise just not one your liking and want to simply just make you happy regardless what it makes others feel.
Trasak said:Alyonyah said:*blinks* What the hell happened in this thread?
If you sift through the pages there are some good ideas and good points and at least 10 pages of circle arguments about to opposing positions. I'd avoid the circle arguments regardless of which side you are on as its just frustrating and disruptive to any forward conversation.
Basic points in no order and with no value judgement are:
All gear should have a look when dropped and that what you are wearing for mechanical reasons should be the only visible option.
Cosmetic gear is ok so long as each view can turn off the cosmetic items that other characters are wearing.
Cosmetic options are good for the over all personal investment into the game world.
Cosmetic options are important to certain subgroups of players.
Having other players have the option of turning off your cosmetic gear is a violation of personal expression and is very creepy.
In PvP visual cues from gear is important in assessing the danger of the other character.
Knowing your group mates are actually strong enough to face the content you are attempting is important and in other games the visual cues from gear were a primary way to do that.
No one wants the Pizza Box wielding warrior in a diaper with big orange sunglasses.
I see this issue in all the forums nowadays. I blame politics. Theres few fair debates anymore where anything is accomplished. Thanks for the summation.
@Riahuf I think it is very poor taste to suggest that you are abusing an analogy that backfired. You clearly missed the point of the analogy even though Dispo came back and clarified. His response was to your "like minded" comment. It would help if you understood that before going off the rails with these false narratives.
Another interesting idea might be to have a way to add slots to an item and another way to sacrifice an item to create a socketable item that could increase the power of the item it is socketed into. In such a way you could increase the power of a lower tier item to make it mechanically more viable. Some balance issues would need to be worked out as well as socket/base item type limitations to keep the items balanced.
oneADseven said:@Riahuf I think it is very poor taste to suggest that you are abusing an analogy that backfired. You clearly missed the point of the analogy even though Dispo came back and clarified. His response was to your "like minded" comment. It would help if you understood that before going off the rails with these false narratives.
@1AD7 maybe this thread should simply just get lcoked as it is obvious that is has already been solved and people just keep coming up with ways that only benefit one side or the other, and the RP server seemed like a decent compromise but obviously you want more, even though you dont deserve it.
Syrif said:It is time to recognize that the only class - the Enchanter - gets false appearances for armor & illusions. The rest is bongo bogus. I see a couple of prospective Chanters on this thread :P
It's funny you mention this. Here are a few suggestions from 12 pages ago:
oneADseven said:What if managing appearance slots required a reagent from the enchanter class?
disposalist said:How about to change the appearance of my gear I have to go to a crafter-enchanter and have a permanent illusion placed on it that consumes the old gear I want it to look like (which must be something I earned and wore so is class/type appropriate)?
Folks in the "pro-appearance" camp have been pretty open-minded when it comes to process -- the end-result is where we are at odds. If Enchanters are able to unlock a spell that allows them to provide the "wardrobe functionality" that we have been asking for, that would be perfectly fine. The main pain point that we have been discussing is the idea that a toggle is a good compromise. It is not. It violates a core aspect of play which is enjoying a shared experience. I don't care if managing appearance slots is time-consuming, expensive, or even dependent on another class. I would actually prefer those things as they would reinforce the many benefits that are inherently attached to having appearance slots in-game.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:It is time to recognize that the only class - the Enchanter - gets false appearances for armor & illusions. The rest is bongo bogus. I see a couple of prospective Chanters on this thread :P
It's funny you mention this. Here are a few suggestions from 12 pages ago:
oneADseven said:What if managing appearance slots required a reagent from the enchanter class?
disposalist said:How about to change the appearance of my gear I have to go to a crafter-enchanter and have a permanent illusion placed on it that consumes the old gear I want it to look like (which must be something I earned and wore so is class/type appropriate)?
Folks in the "pro-appearance" camp have been pretty open-minded when it comes to process -- the end-result is where we are at odds. If Enchanters are able to unlock a spell that allows them to provide the "wardrobe functionality" that we have been asking for, that would be perfectly fine. The main pain point that we have been discussing is the idea that a toggle is a good compromise. It is not. It violates a core aspect of play which is enjoying a shared experience. I don't care if managing appearance slots is time-consuming, expensive, or even dependent on another class. I would actually prefer those things as they would reinforce the many benefits that are inherently attached to having appearance slots in-game.
You mean where you force a feature onto me and giving me no way to midigate its affect.
Yeah we have been hearing you for quite some time
As for some of us have been accepting the fact you can acquire this gear
If we can decide to see it or not
But that isnt good enough for you
You want it all
And want to hurt my immersion over and over and over agian
Becuase it makes you happy
Yes we have heard you
And until you stop repeating yourself
I won't
Don't act like you have been "open-minded" you have been doing this whole all or nothing attitude the entire time, as for many including myself have offered a right click feature to pick a choose who to see in what form (my idea) to RP servers, and some others so don't feel like we haven't been open minded becuase that simply isn't true
And the toggle doesn't force you to do anytihng, but no toggle forcing someone to do sometihng they shouldn't have too.
Riahuf22 said:You mean where you force a feature onto me and giving me no way to midigate its affect.
Yeah we have been hearing you for quite some time
As for some of us have been accepting the fact you can acquire this gear
If we can decide to see it or not
But that isnt good enough for you
You want it all
And want to hurt my immersion over and over and over agian
Becuase it makes you happy
Yes we have heard you
And until you stop repeating yourself
I won't
This is a pretty dramatic strawman that you have concocted here. Par for the course.
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:You mean where you force a feature onto me and giving me no way to midigate its affect.
Yeah we have been hearing you for quite some time
As for some of us have been accepting the fact you can acquire this gear
If we can decide to see it or not
But that isnt good enough for you
You want it all
And want to hurt my immersion over and over and over agian
Becuase it makes you happy
Yes we have heard you
And until you stop repeating yourself
I won't
This is a pretty dramatic strawman that you have concocted here. Par for the course.
the big question is does it ring true, i think it does.
And i have to say im done with this thread, it been clear that debating anytihng is pointless, shot I've proved it to myself I won't change and i will never accept appearance gear to be so important to where it overrides my ability to see adventure gear, i simply won't do it.
And Others have made it quite clear they won't chnage their minds, so 19 pages of tect and no one chnaged ther mind but maybe like 3 people maybe, so again whats the point the devs have everything they need to make a choice, in fact they probably got all the info they needed 15 pages ago.
Riahuf22 said:Maybe if @dispos didn't try to use an analogy that backfired terribly we wouldn't even be talking about lipstick, or shirts, or pants but since he/she did I used it.
If by "backfired terribly" you mean you personally didn't get it or can't comprehend using an example to help explain a concept, then, yeah.
Riahuf22 said:Maybe you should understand some people simply don't want to see your cosmetic gear, maybe you should understand not everyone is the same, maybe you should understand that even though the toggle might not make you happy it is a compromise just not one your liking and want to simply just make you happy regardless what it makes others feel.
It's so funny you think you're the misunderstood one then you go on to completely misunderstand and misrepresent others.
"maybe you should understand not everyone is the same" Hilarious. If *you* understood that, you might realise that a proposal that makes *you* happy, but makes others *unhappy* is *not* a compromise.
Once more: A toggle makes you 100% happy and me 0% to 99% happy, depending on how many use the toggle.
No toggle makes me 100% happy and you 0% to 99% happy depending on how many use appearance gear.
So which is best? Me, I say, obviously neither. You seem convinced that the toggle is 'perfect'... So... Who is the one that is understanding?
Riahuf22 said:oneADseven said:@Riahuf I think it is very poor taste to suggest that you are abusing an analogy that backfired. You clearly missed the point of the analogy even though Dispo came back and clarified. His response was to your "like minded" comment. It would help if you understood that before going off the rails with these false narratives.
@1AD7 maybe this thread should simply just get lcoked as it is obvious that is has already been solved and people just keep coming up with ways that only benefit one side or the other, and the RP server seemed like a decent compromise but obviously you want more, even though you dont deserve it.
"it is obvious that is has already been solved". Lol. No. It's obvious it has *not* been 'solved'. The toggle doesn't solve it for anyone except those not wanting the appearance slots and having no toggle doesn't solve it for anyone except those wanting appearance slots. Even the separate server idea isn't ideal.
People are wanting to continue the discussion in the hope more ideas will come forward.
Going over and over the same stuff claiming it is a perfect solution, is, however, not so helpful.
I get you are of course happy with a toggle and are also happy with a separate server. You would be. The are perfect for you. Suggesting they are perfect, fullstop, for everyone, is just not true.
Riahuf22 said:oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:You mean where you force a feature onto me and giving me no way to midigate its affect.
Yeah we have been hearing you for quite some time
As for some of us have been accepting the fact you can acquire this gear
If we can decide to see it or not
But that isnt good enough for you
You want it all
And want to hurt my immersion over and over and over agian
Becuase it makes you happy
Yes we have heard you
And until you stop repeating yourself
I won't
This is a pretty dramatic strawman that you have concocted here. Par for the course.
the big question is does it ring true, i think it does.
And i have to say im done with this thread, it been clear that debating anytihng is pointless, shot I've proved it to myself I won't change and i will never accept appearance gear to be so important to where it overrides my ability to see adventure gear, i simply won't do it.
And Others have made it quite clear they won't chnage their minds, so 19 pages of tect and no one chnaged ther mind but maybe like 3 people maybe, so again whats the point the devs have everything they need to make a choice, in fact they probably got all the info they needed 15 pages ago.
No one is expecting you or anyone to change how you feel about appearance slots. What would be nice is if we all discuss and try to find solutions. 1AD7 and I (and others) have made lots of suggestions, not just stated our opinions and told others they are wrong.
We don't have to agree, but to understand and to still be able to discuss is not impossible. This a not a debate anyone has to 'win'.
disposalist said:Riahuf22 said:Maybe if @dispos didn't try to use an analogy that backfired terribly we wouldn't even be talking about lipstick, or shirts, or pants but since he/she did I used it.
If by "backfired terribly" you mean you personally didn't get it or can't comprehend using an example to help explain a concept, then, yeah.
Riahuf22 said:Maybe you should understand some people simply don't want to see your cosmetic gear, maybe you should understand not everyone is the same, maybe you should understand that even though the toggle might not make you happy it is a compromise just not one your liking and want to simply just make you happy regardless what it makes others feel.
It's so funny you think you're the misunderstood one then you go on to completely misunderstand and misrepresent others.
"maybe you should understand not everyone is the same" Hilarious. If *you* understood that, you might realise that a proposal that makes *you* happy, but makes others *unhappy* is *not* a compromise.
Once more: A toggle makes you 100% happy and me 0% to 99% happy, depending on how many use the toggle.
No toggle makes me 100% happy and you 0% to 99% happy depending on how many use appearance gear.
So which is best? Me, I say, obviously neither. You seem convinced that the toggle is 'perfect'... So... Who is the one that is understanding?
I have understood it, the fact I have said i understand why people want to acquire such items is me understanding it, if the exception of me wanting to unsee it is where it stops. But you don't only want to acquire it you want to render my immersion into the game by making me see it regardless if i want to or not.
And the toggle isn't prefect, No appearance items at all is prefect, but like i said i understand why people want it, so for me to accept costmetic gear for others i wnt a toggle to unsee it, its really that simple
So how about the only extremist here are the purists of this whole all or nothing wihc isn't me im accepting cosmetic gear in general
Your giving me no choice and forcing me to see sometihng i don't want regardless of anything else for as long as your happy
so who actually sounds like the extremists me or you
i wonder
and you could join a RP server that someone requested and be 100% happy but of course that sin't good enough.
Riahuf22 said:...and you could join a RP server that someone requested and be 100% happy but of course that sin't good enough.
I'd be ok with that, as you know, but I'm happy to discuss further because I know others aren't happy with being pushed onto an RP server just because they want appearance gear to define how they look to others.
I'm trying not to be selfish. We all should.
This is a really good thread, and as someone said: circuitous arguments aside that pop up every so often, allow me to DERAIL
Syrif said:LOL how about the only class that can make armor & appearances look like something else they are not is the ENCHANTER! There we go, only the Enchanter gets false appearances, BINGO BONGO problem solved!!
What if this was solely the ability of the enchanter? to change looks not only fo race but also for Class appearance? to the point where it you'd even ID to players or alarmist NPC's as the class you were illusioned to (illusioned to?)
So if an NPC was so AI'ed to "kill the caster", maybe a strat would be to illusion a Warrior to look like a caster, be it a cleric, a wizard/mage or a druid in a black ops operation in a Black rose keep multi-group/raid encounter. Likewise this would allow invis to work if being trained ( and allow that ogre blocking the ZI to Guk to die- train comes, you cant zone out, but you invis at just the right time- frogloks dont see you but see the ogre and go to town on the ogre.)
This might make the enchanter OP? being able to not only change appearance, and faction but also class as considered by NPC's and players?
perhaps class change is Overpowered and instead class obfuscation is better? and for the sake of intuitiveness best left to a rogue a d NOT a chanter. Chanter gets all the illusions, but rogue gets class obfuscation, like a ninja shroud but only on one other player in group. So an NPC or player can class identify all player members but one if a rogue is in the group. As if the rogue is kidnapping or black-hood escorting the obfuscated character which would have the opposite effect to make NPC's more drawn to the mysterious person obviously someone of value? or a poor level 5 newbie decoy? to tempt the Boss with their Death touch spell?
Syrif said:To add to the thread and depth: No permanents! Hellz no. Enchanter, The Illusionist, where art thou??????
i wish to see what others see, but i do not wish for others to see what i see, yet i wish others to see what i want to them to see, therefore, i who truely see what there is to see, holds all the power, all the knowledge and control the minds of others.
kay this thread lol i'll go quiet into the night again.
wow. looks like the top 7 Pantheon Forum police are on duty. which is another reason why i post less and less.
You aren't allowed to have an opinion unless you fight about it for 16 friggen pages.... ridiculous...
I want to see what people are wearing, not what they bought in the cash shop. just give me a toggle to see NOTHING but in game armor.
I thought we had beat this horse to death, but i guess not. This is my opinion and I am not going to fight about it. if you don't like my opinion, move on and fight with someone else.
I feel like there are 10 people that are going to decided everything this game has or doesn't have.
Flapp said:wow. looks like the top 7 Pantheon Forum police are on duty. which is another reason why i post less and less.
You aren't allowed to have an opinion unless you fight about it for 16 friggen pages.... ridiculous...
I want to see what people are wearing, not what they bought in the cash shop. just give me a toggle to see NOTHING but in game armor.
I thought we had beat this horse to death, but i guess not. This is my opinion and I am not going to fight about it. if you don't like my opinion, move on and fight with someone else.
I feel like there are 10 people that are going to decided everything this game has or doesn't have.
lol the thread has degraded tremendously XD
what's that saying? this is why we can't have nice things? does that saying pertain here? okay serious, i'mma stop responding now >.<