Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Do you like being able to change

    • 2756 posts
    November 18, 2019 4:19 AM PST

    I'm having a stab at looking a this more analytically. First thing is to try and set some definitions, identify the groups involved, determine the associated issues and some safe assumptions. Some help with detail would be great.  For me, one thing that has come out of this thread is the issue is a lot more complex and deep than at might first appear.

    Disclaimer: My analysis can be coloured by my opinion. It's hard not to. Please help me complete or correct.

    Definitions: -

    Gear: Equipped items. Usually for adventuring, but technically, could be cosmetic.

    Cosmetics: Generally recognised in MMORPGs as items that serve *only* for appearance altering. Often non-adventuring only, though can often, even if non-adventuring, be worn, or appear to be worn, in an adventuring situation.
    Tends to encompass the more outlandish, over-the-top, inappropriate, immersion-busting looks, but is not always.
    Often bought for real cash in a game-associated 'shop' and is not even available as in-game loot.
    Often more exotic and interesting than high prestige in-game items.

    Appearance slots: Note: Not appearance "items". This is the concept of an additional slot, per equipped item, where another item can be placed such that its appearance will override the appearance of the equipped item.

    Earned items: Those obtained in-game from loot directly or indirectly (purchased with in-game currency or trade).

    Wardrobe: A system of storing the appearance of multiple items (most often earned). Sometimes requires 'consumption' of the item in question.

    Transmog(rification): A process of using (usually consuming) an item (and possibly other components) to alter the appearance, permanently, of another item (to look like that used/consumed).

    /inspect: A function common to early MMORPGs whereby a player could inspect another player's character's gear. Common etiquette was to ask permission. Commonly players could set themselves uninspectable.

    /hidehelm: A function common to most MMORPGs whereby a player could elect to have his helmet be invisible, presumably because they preferred their head/face to be visible. Often also a similar function for cloaks. Sometimes for shoulderpads. Even for boots (in LOTRO so Hobbits could show off their hairy feet!)

    Assumptions: -

    From what VR have said, Pantheon will not have cosmetic items, but will have appearance slots in which earned items can be placed.
    There may be items intended primarily for appearance/prestige (ie. not having stats), but they will not look inappropriate (for example those items granted by pledges).
    Appearance slots will have restrictions appropriate to the gear slots (by class, type, etc).

    Groups: -

    Realists: Those that simply want gear as originally designed.
    Just because that feels right. It is a 'fantasy' game, but it's a simple, understandable opinion.
    Characters shouldn't look like something they are not.
    Things not reflecting what they are could cause some immersion confusion.

    Judges: Those that want to assess capability of others at a glance
    Again, simple and understandable.
    Characters shouldn't look higher level or more powerful than they are.
    Though, how much can a glance really tell you? How much does gear really tell you about capability? How often does it really matter?

    Prestigeous: Those that want to show off their adventuring accomplishments and see/compare others'
    Whether for inspiration or for bragging, it's an understandable opinion.
    Is what you are currently equipping really representing your greatest accomplishments?
    In games with appearance slots, people adventure after loot to put in appearance slots. Is that adventure a lesser accomplishment?

    Self Image: Those that care how they see themselves
    It's clearly a thing in single player games.
    How much of a thing is it in massively multi-player games?

    External Image: Those that care how others see them
    It's human nature. We all do it to some extent.
    How important is it? Hint: Bear in mind the concepts of "fantasy", "role-playing" and "multi-player"?
    You don't have to be a hardcore role-player to want to portray a 'character'

    Secretive: Those that feel others have no right to know their gear
    It's the reason you could disable /inspect in EQ. Seems quite a common feeling.
    They like the mystery. They don't want to be judged on what they have equipped

    Role-players: Those that feel it vital to portray a particular image
    Like the External Image crowd but with much greater emphasis and with more purpose
    Role-players don't just role-play in non-adventuring situations, though some may be ok with that
    What you wear needs to match biography and project an image. The need can change per situation, mood, event, etc.

    Crafters: That might benefit from selling gear with appearance value
    Related and worth considering that appearance slots aren't simply a non-gameplay thing
    Transmogrification could expand crafting
    Dyes and other modifications could expand crafting
    Accessories could expand crafting
    Appearance could be a reason in and of itself for crafted items

    FashionQuesters: Appearance slots expand that dimension of existing loot
    Loot gains more value beyond its stats. Loot not valuable for stats might be valuable for appearance
    Characters have more reason to explore beyond power progression.
    Will lead to characters exploring areas not of their level.
    Will lead to characters exploring areas not of their culture or race (to find cultural/race specific gear).

    Shared experience: Those that do not want the community split in any way
    Everyone should experience the same game.
    No weird immersion, who-sees-what problems are wanted.
    Seperate servers aren't ideal.

    Worriers: Those that assume VR will allow any system to become the worst incarnation it can
    Some are suggesting VR will let whatever appearance system they develop slip and slide into cosmetics chaos
    They think andything and everything should be done to stop VR doing this
    If you have this level of (dis)trust, it's perhaps not worth discussing the issue (or any)?

    Issues: -

    Cosmetics: As defined above, not an issue because ruled out by VR. Only mentioned here because they come up so much as strawman arguments. Not helpful to the discussion.

    Appearance slots: Some love the idea. Some don't want them at all. Some think if they are implemented flawed, not to bother.

    Appearance toggle: Some think it ruins the whole concept. Some think it damages it to some extent. Some think it a compromise (though there is no mutual sacrifice)

    /inspect: Not convenient enough? Too invasive?  Don't care?

    /hidehelm: Surely 'the same' as appearance slots, yet somehow more generally accepted?

    Seperate server: The ultimate solution to disagreements, but at what cost?

     


    This post was edited by disposalist at November 18, 2019 6:11 AM PST
    • 1584 posts
    November 18, 2019 5:10 AM PST

     

     

    Realists: Those that simply want gear as originally designed.

    Just because that feels right. It is a 'fantasy' game, but it's a simple, understandable opinion.

    Things not reflecting what they are could cause some immersion confusion.

    Correct, and as I've said this doesn't affect your gameplay/immersion in anyway, and i just want my gameplay/immersion to stay intact

    Judges: Those that want to assess capability of others at a glance
    Again, simple and understandable, though how much can a glance really tell you?

    How much does gear really tell you about capability? How often does it really matter?

    It can tell you a lot, even before end game, imagine you went to a dungoen, and found a piece of equipment and the boss that dropped it was either above average difficulty, or maybe even insane (imo), and you adventure out and find another person with this same piece of gear, you know that either this individual/group was just as good or better than you/or group.  And now you can approiately access his skill cap, now is this always true, of course not, but its a safe gauging point, and it's the little hints like this that we are looking for, and also just the natural flow of how the game looks, as in my eyes i believe a lvl 20 character shouldn't look like they are rocking a full set of anything, your a new adventure, and have barely got your feet wet while adventure out into a new world you know almost nothing about.

    Prestigeous: Those that want to show off their adventuring accomplishments and see/compare others'
    Whether for inspiration or for bragging, it's an understandable opinion.
    Is what you are currently equipping really representing your greatest accomplishments?
    In games with appearance slots, people adventure after loot to put in appearance slots. Is that adventure a lesser accomplishment?

     

    You can do this to your Hearts content, no one is stopping you from doing so.  When it comes ot your gear representing you, absolutely if you think a lvl 20 piece of gear is harder than a piece of gear that dropped off of a lvl 40 mob than why didn't you just skip to the lvl 40 mob and kill him instead, its simply you weren't strong enough to do so, so where one mob might of been mechanically easier, doesn't mean he was a easier target, when you are looking at things from a leveling prespective.  As for putting on the appearance slot on in general we weren't saying it is a lesser accompolishment we are saying changing the way you actually looks hurts our immersion, and as a core tenet in the game they should try to repeal to both sides of the matter, the ones that want it, and the ones that don't want to see it.

    Self Image: Those that care how they see themselves
    It's clearly a thing in single player games.
    How much of a thing is it in massively multi-player games?

     

    As i have no proof I'm sure their is probably more people that fit this category than the ones that fit into the 2 above it honestly.

    External Image: Those that care how others see them
    It's human nature. We all do it to some extent.
    How important is it? Hint: Bear in mind the concepts of "fantasy", "role-playing" and "multi-player"?
    You don't have to be a hardcore role-player to want to portray a 'character'

    And you can share this experience with like minded individuals, we aren't stopping you from doing so, but just becuase people are this type they should also understand and respect that everyone is different and if this is true the exact opposite also has to be true, so if you are being supported with features like appearance items, and maybe something else in some way or others, the devs should also support the people of the opposite side of the spectrum.  You can say some of the features people of brought up simply ruins the features and would prevent you from using it, but why not understand not having a way to midigate its affect ruins the immersion of others, and if you do understand than why do you think ruining my immersion is a good thing simply so you can always show your appearance gear?

    I would respond to the rest of your post but i hit up some of the ones I really wanted to talk about from my PoV, and agian i know we aren't going to agree, but i think looking at a feature like this in a Purists Point of View like @Beefcake, @1AD7, isn't the way to do it, its way to much game changing and should be taking care of in a much different way to make multiple groups of people happy to some extent and not so much we are going to support one group and have the other group left with an immersion breaking feature they cant do anything with.  Especially if one fo the Core Tenets is to be Immersive.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Cealtric at November 18, 2019 5:33 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    November 18, 2019 6:06 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said: 

    Realists: Those that simply want gear as originally designed...

    Correct, and as I've said this doesn't affect your gameplay/immersion in anyway, and i just want my gameplay/immersion to stay intact

    Judges: Those that want to assess capability of others at a glance...

    It can tell you a lot, even before end game, imagine you went to a dungoen...

    Prestigeous: Those that want to show off their adventuring accomplishments and see/compare others'...

    You can do this to your Hearts content, no one is stopping you from doing so....

    Self Image: Those that care how they see themselves...

    As i have no proof I'm sure their is probably more people that fit this category than the ones that fit into the 2 above it honestly.

    External Image: Those that care how others see them...

    And you can share this experience with like minded individuals...

    Ok, cool. Thanks for the feedback. Understood. I think we two have decided that removing the toggle from RP servers would be the only way to keep the two 'opposed' sides 100% happy, but I'm still interested in delving deeper and considering everyone else too.

    From your comments, I think I need to add something about the related Pantheon/VR Tenets and cover the whole looking-like-they-are-higher-level thing, which I agree is an issue (I don't want that either).

    I'd love it if you did comment on the other stuff I wrote. You are someone who is clearly interested in the issue and I'd like to know your opinion on all of it. I know it's a lot though!


    This post was edited by disposalist at November 18, 2019 6:09 AM PST
    • 1315 posts
    November 18, 2019 6:36 AM PST

    Something I am pushing for is relative challenge ratings and loot tables and achievements based on those.  A group of 6 level 20s beating a level 25 dungeon mini-boss should be more rewarding than a level 50 solo roflestomping said mini boss. 

    If a lot of the more cosmetically pleasing items come from high challenge rating loot tables and players can mentor down to the appropriate challenge in town, then even lower level items will be a sign of skill an prestige.  Items with similar mechanical stats but more generic appearances could drop from the same boss at any challenge rating leaving the game play unaffected from a mechanical standpoint.

    Those challenge rating encounters could be the source of many of the desired appearance slot items.  Having that item shows personal skill and ability as you were able to complete the encounter in challenge mode.  Its possible that you may get a token for completing a challenge encounter that can be then traded in with the generic looking version of the item to get a soul bound nice looking version of the item.  That way only people who have completed the challenge can have the upgraded appearance.

    Another concept would be more that items will have base attributes based on slot and type that are independent of level.  In other words, an item that drops from a level 10 named could be equally as powerful as a level 40 named on a level 40 character.  There may be secondary or situational benefits on the level 40 item that would not be present on the level 10 item as content at level 10 would not need those effects.  In this system you could legitimately wear low level good items at maximum level without taking a significant efficiency hit unless you needed the situational benefits of the higher-level items.

    Both of these concepts are more of a system approach to making a compromise between the appearance slot crowd and the adventuring gear only crowd.  The first would almost be a better indicator of a players ability than just having high level gear they could have traded for and the second keeps low level content relevant at high level.  There are ways to do things like jewel slots on gear unlocked at certain level increments that could be used to keep lower level gear relevant at the expense of making the item soul bound and consuming resources.

    • 1584 posts
    November 18, 2019 6:55 AM PST

    Secretive: Those that feel others have no right to know their gear
    It's the reason you could disable /inspect in EQ. Seems quite a common feeling.
    They like the mystery. They don't want to be judged on what they have equipped

    I find this to quite common as well, and i can understand it, some people simply just like to have the privacy and should be allowed to keep it if they wish.

    Role-players: Those that feel it vital to portray a particular image
    Like the External Image crowd but with much greater emphasis and with more purpose
    Role-players don't just role-play in non-adventuring situations, though some may be ok with that
    What you wear needs to match biography and project an image. The need can change per situation, mood, event, etc.

     

    And I say they should be able to do that, as i said eariler in this thread I'm not a roleplayer, so I'm going to get off this section of the conversation due to not knowing much about it, and not wanting to offend or pretend i know what I'm talking about when talking about a particular group of people.

     

    Crafters: That might benefit from selling gear with appearance value
    Related and worth considering that appearance slots aren't simply a non-gameplay thing
    Transmogrification could expand crafting
    Dyes and other modifications could expand crafting
    Accessories could expand crafting
    Appearance could be a reason in and of itself for crafted items

    As you could say appearance could keep crafters valuable longer, i can say i haven't seen many people giving transmog a positive rating, in fact if i remember correctly even in WoW when it first came out they thought it would be cool, but than realized it only had a bunch of the same items being transmog into the same appearances, so again it fed the beast it was trying to avoid in a different way.

    FashionQuesters: Appearance slots expand that dimension of existing loot
    Loot gains more value beyond its stats. Loot not valuable for stats might be valuable for appearance
    Characters have more reason to explore beyond power progression.
    Will lead to characters exploring areas not of their level.
    Will lead to characters exploring areas not of their culture or race (to find cultural/race specific gear).

    Let it, but if that thing influenced you to do something should be for you first and foremost, and than to express it to others that think just like you and therefore kind of goes back to the whole External Appearance Topic, I can say i see how going back for something that you completely out level to have your outfit look better can be appealing to someone who likes that sort of thing.  Even though it not part of this topic the Devs have also made it clear that higher level players will be running into your low level dungeon becuase the deeper you go the higher they will get and I'm guessing it might not be a gradual increase in levels but maybe a mountain so where it could be a lvl 20 dungeon, maybe heading down stairs a distance could maybe make it 40 who knows. 

     

    Shared experience: Those that do not want the community split in any way
    Everyone should experience the same game.
    No weird immersion, who-sees-what problems are wanted.
    Seperate servers aren't ideal.

    Honestly i can say i would hate to see the community split, i was just throwing out random ideas that i knew to be worse than the toggle itself, for many reason and we don't have to discuss them becuase i know it was bad from the beginning, i was just throwing out ideas and seeing what would stick and what wouldn't.  But it would fix the problem it would also fix a problem that in the long term is extremely marginal, at least compare to having servers that accomendate it specifically. (unless if they just decide to tie it to RP servers)

     

    Worriers: Those that assume VR will allow any system to become the worst incarnation it can
    Some are suggesting VR will let whatever appearance system they develop slip and slide into cosmetics chaos
    They think andything and everything should be done to stop VR doing this
    If you have this level of (dis)trust, it's perhaps not worth discussing the issue (or any)?

    I don't think I've seen this to much granted I've seen certain indivduals make crazy comments, about cosmetic gear, but i don't think they actually believe VR is going to do such things as this, but more just poking at the topic and see who they can get to respond in general.  But, this is just me and if some people are truly worrying than i hope VR proves them wrong, and can build their confidence back up and "Trust in Pantheon." 

     I did this simply becuase i was asked nicely to comment on the rest of it by @dispos, so I'm sorry for responding to the second half like an hour later, but i wasn't going to ignore someone who wanted my opinion on all of her/his thoughts when asked so nicely.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at November 18, 2019 6:56 AM PST
    • 2756 posts
    November 18, 2019 7:03 AM PST

    Thanks @Riahuf22 !

    • 1584 posts
    November 18, 2019 7:24 AM PST

    Issues: -

    Cosmetics: As defined above, not an issue because ruled out by VR. Only mentioned here because they come up so much as strawman arguments. Not helpful to the discussion.

    I see a lot of people seem to seperate Cosmetic, Appearance, and Transmog like they are different when they accompolish the exact same goal, granted cosmetic is a much broader area of gear but it certainly can do everything an appearance slot or transmog can do.

    Appearance slots: Some love the idea. Some don't want them at all. Some think if they are implemented flawed, not to bother.

    Not a Big fan, but anyone reading this knows this, but i also want it in the game so people who do want it and be happy it will be around (Even though you get one by supporting Pantheon and I'm sure they plan on making more than just one.)

    Appearance toggle: Some think it ruins the whole concept. Some think it damages it to some extent. Some think it a compromise (though there is no mutual sacrifice)

    At this point I just hope VR as an answer that would make both sides happy, as I would love to know VR as come to an answer that keeps both sides happy without sacraficing to much.

    /inspect: Not convenient enough? Too invasive?  Don't care?

    More or so, its a feature that will probably be disabled, which shoud be an option imo.

     

    /hidehelm: Surely 'the same' as appearance slots, yet somehow more generally accepted?

    I don't think these two are the same, though not completely different either, as hiding your helmet is dramatically different than unequipping it, and to me anyway i believe hiding your helmet is dramatically different that changing its appearance completely.

     

    Seperate server: The ultimate solution to disagreements, but at what cost?

    I think if it is tied to RP server, it might be fine as if people are so involved on how they look to others, and all of this as people seem to make it look like they do, I would believe they would also want to play nice with other simply so they can have a good repuation on thier server.  So imo i think the External Appearance players are very close to being roleplayers, but this could just be me.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at November 18, 2019 7:31 AM PST
    • 160 posts
    November 18, 2019 7:46 AM PST

    1) I prefer that there are no appearance items, everyone should look according to what actual items he has.

    2) In case any change to appearance is allowed, it must be equally visible to everyone. A situation where two or more people look at the same person, and everyone sees him/her differently, breaks the immersion beyond repair.

    • 3237 posts
    November 18, 2019 9:25 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Appearance gear is not a play-style.  It an aesthetic preference.  I would never join a server just because it offered appearance gear options.  You join a server with rules that match your playstyle and friendships.

    I agree with the basic premise of what you are saying here, for sure.  It might seem ridiculous to join an RP server specifically because of how appearance slots are handled, but when I started to think about this a bit more deeply, there was plenty of merit to the idea.  When I consider the value of appearance slots it extends well beyond my ability to manage the appearance of my character.  While that is certainly appealing in its own right, I am also highly interested in the ancillary benefits that are associated with what I would consider a proper implementation of appearance slots.  I'm going to list those benefits in no particular order:

    1)  Minimizing item value deflation

    Appearance slots provide an additional type of value to weapons and armor.  Using an example from some of my previous posts, the "Bloodstone Breastplate" could end up being an item that maintains a high perceived value well beyond the shelf life of a typical piece of armor.  Appearance slots allow certain items to have a timeless value that is otherwise impractical when the value of gear is measured by combat efficiency alone.

    2)  Content Relevance

    This benefit is directly attached to the above.  Whenever you have an item that has a "timeless value" it would make sense, then, that the content associated with that item would have it as well.  This means that the NPC that drops the "Bloodstone Breastplate" or the faction merchant that sells it will continue to be relevant for as long as that value is maintained.

    3)  Horizontal Progression

    I think it's fair to say that any time spent on acquiring gear for the sole purpose of leveraging its appearance would be considered horizontal progression.  This serves as the catalyst for both of the above benefits.  While the appearance of our gear does not offer a direct combat advantage, it does have minor tactical/strategic implications.  A player could be deceptive about their power and purposely appear as weak.  That sounds like emergent gameplay to me and I don't see any reason why we should purposely restrict that from happening.  Reputation is supposed to be important.

    4)  Player Agency / Self-Expression

    Allowing players to influence the world around them is one of the biggest draws to open-world MMORPG's.  Developers have been trying to capture this phenomenon in single-player games for ages.  It typically involves an advanced node system where the choice a player makes can lead to one of several outcomes.  One of the most popular implementations is to create multiple endings.  Does the hero vanquish the antagonist while also saving the princess?  Does the hero sacrifice themself in order to save others or does he survive at the expense of the local orphanage?  Over time we saw these types of multiple-outcome-scenarios become more commonplace throughout the entirety of an RPG story.  MMORPG's are uniquely positioned to offer a sense of player agency that is persistent throughout the entire game.  Allowing a player to control the appearance of their character has an impact on every other player they interact with.  This can be good or bad depending on the options available to the player.  If someone can equip santa hats and candy cane swords then there is a very valid argument that it ruins the immersion of being in a fantasy world.  As long as the options are consistent with the overall theme of the game, this sense of player agency can be used to amplify the sensation of enjoying a shared experience with others.

     

    The main argument that I have been trying to make on this thread is that I feel that the above benefits should be fully realized on standard servers.  While my playstyle is certainly a consideration, so too is the style of game that I want to play.  If it is determined that an RP server is the only ruleset that would offer all of those benefits then I would feel pretty compelled to play there.  Not for the benefits alone, though.  I would have a vested interest in being part of a community that has a mutual interest and appreciation for that style of game.  There are several controversial topics I have been a part of that ultimately ended with "Just put it on an RP server" as the proposed solution.  I'm starting to feel that an RP server might be more accommodating to the type of game that I want to play and the type of community that I want to share a virtual world with.  That said, I'm not really interested in what is considered traditional roleplaying in the confines of an MMORPG, so there is a bit of a conflict of interest.  There are certainly elements of roleplaying that I enjoy and it would be ideal if these basic principles were offered as part of the standard ruleset.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at November 18, 2019 11:00 AM PST
    • 696 posts
    November 18, 2019 2:21 PM PST

    disposalist said:

    Watemper said:

    The transmog stuff on rp servers seem reasonable. The thing is is that the majority of people don't care what you look like, but want to see what you are wearing. Toggling is the only way I see for a happy medium. If I am forced to look at your fake gear then their will be problems. Many people will probably ridicule people who go that route of transmoging. Luckily, most people who transmog do it for themselves and not others, which is why toggling is a good solution. If you are forcing me to look at your ridiculous armor that you aren't wearing....then you should accept what usually happens when you force your way onto others.

    "the majority of people don't care what you look like"

    You sure it's a majority?  And again, though I'm happy with going to an RP server to get appearance slots, a toggle isn't a "happy medium" when it is 100% great for those not wanting appearance slots and significantly less than 100% for those that do.  A medium would involve compromise on both sides.

    "but want to see what you are wearing"

    Oh, so they *do* care what you look like, but only underneath what you *want* to look like?  Otherwise /inspect would be fine?  Because they don't actually care what you *look* like, just want to know?

    "Many people will probably ridicule people who go that route of transmoging"

    Many?  Probably?  Never seen ridiculing of it unless it is ridiculous cosmetics, which it won't be in Pantheon.  In LOTRO where I use wardrobe slots, I did get lots of people admiring my look and asking where I got the appearance gear (which is, of course, normally earned gear that you consume to put in your wardrobe).

    "most people who transmog do it for themselves and not others"

    Most?  Where are you getting your info?  When I bother to set up appearance stuff it's to give me a look I want others to see.  I would imaging most people do it for others to see, but, hey, I don't know for sure.

    "ridiculous armor"

    As previously mentioned, VR have said appearance gear will not be 'ridiculous'.

    "force your way onto others"

    Like forcing appearance slots to be useless just so at a glance you can see exactly what I'm wearing?

    As I've said in previous posts, the crux of this matter is the desire to control knowing what someone is wearing weighed against the desire to control knowing how someone sees you.

    Those that don't care about using appearance slots are happy with the toggle because it gives them 100% of what they want.

    How about having no toggle and using /inspect?  Then those wanting appearance slots get 100% of what they want and you have some inconvenience but get what you want.  That sound good?  No?

    A compromise involves *both* sides giving up their ideal solution, else it is not a compromise.  The toggle is not a compromise any more than the /inspect function is.

     

    If it isn't the majority then it shouldn't matter if their is a toggle if most of the people will see it.

     

    My ideal solution is no transmogs...my compromise is toggling. 

    • 18 posts
    November 18, 2019 9:21 PM PST

    Are we assuming the toggle effects how we see other players and their configuration? I guess I always figured it changed how others saw me, me in my equipped vs. me in my appearance gear. Admittedly, I've never played with it too much, usually just to make my armor look like a matching set, or equipping chain or leather shoulders so my warrior can actually look both ways to safely cross the street, haha.

    I like appearance slots, personally. Want to show off your BiS Gear so everyone knows what you've accomplished? dont utilize it. Want to look like you can dress yourself and prove you're not colorblind, knock yourself out. What I did have issue with, even in something like eq2, was the ceremonail robes or even the lvl1 equipable pristine chrome plate/sweet looking class gear. If we were just given 2 spots for each equipable slot, both with our character's lvl/class/race requirements, this wouldn't be an issue.

    • 1247 posts
    November 18, 2019 10:18 PM PST

    Goodness’ sake. What have mmo’s come to.. unbelievable 

    • 145 posts
    November 19, 2019 12:02 PM PST

    One of my favorite things about EQ was that when you walked up to someone you could tell where they had been what they had. The uniqueness of the robes, the colors of armor, the graphics of the weapons. If you had good knowledge of the game you could tell exactly where they had been and what they had been wearing. I liked that aspect of the game. When you were lower level and you seen someone with a robe you had never seen before you knew they were high level, you knew they had been around. I remember a Ranger from the lead guild on my server would go to the Kelethin bank from time to time and he would be bombarded with people surrounding him looking at his gear seeing what he had. 

    Nowadays things have changed and I don't think there is as much admiration for things like that as there once was. But it still brings back fond memories of the game. You knew the SMR look and that they had spent a long time in lower guk. Nobody traded that robe early on it was too valuable. Things like that gave the game more mystique I felt. And I would like for each item to have it's own graphic.

    That being said I do like armor sets and the way they look as a whole set when designed right. One thing about Vanguard was when you finished the Pantheon gear the whole suit went together well. And you could choose your deity based on how the armor looked as well. It was nice to have that as well.

    I'm not too big on armor and it's graphics. Whatever they decide to do I will be fine with. I think my favorite game for armor was probably Skyrim, if you're counting armor as a whole. The Daedric armor and the dragonbone armor both looked really good. Even the ebony armor was slick.

    • 291 posts
    November 19, 2019 1:20 PM PST

    Man.... Hot topic. I understand all the camps here. Pretty sure the devs will solve it through itemization.

    • 124 posts
    November 22, 2019 3:33 AM PST

    I find it odd that, in so many streams of this game (and on these forums), one of the routinely repeated statements of, how seeing high level players in lower level zones galvanized you to do better, and to progress, in the hopes of eventually achieving what that higher level player had achieved. But, transmog is being considered? Abilities / power is one aspect of the appeal, but the items / loot they'd acquired were clearly an even stronger motivator. Adding transmog destroys many things I find absolutely fundamental to a game like this, it degrades the achievement of acquiring unique items, it ruins the sense of achievement for those that have actually acquired those items vs those drifting around like children playing dress-up, and it also erodes the appeal of owning those items when anyone can easily look identical to those who have put the time and effort in to actually acquiring them.

    I genuinely despise the idea, so much so, that I would likely stop playing Pantheon because of it. That's a strong statement, I know, but watching muppets prancing around playing 'let's pretend' really isn't something I wish to pay for on a monthly basis. I want hard work to be recognised, please don't turn Pantheon into some virtual cat walk, we really don't need another game like that. How can basic armour / weapons that look like they dropped from raid bosses be appealing? Seriously, how is that good for any aspect of the game? How can people not see how badly it affects the entire process of character development / progression? Your toon should reflect the time and effort you've put into it, not how many coins you've paid an NPC to create the illusion of being successful.

    In Dark Age of Camelot they had a dye / enamel system which allowed you to colour your armour / weapons to stop you looking like a patchwork quilt. You couldn't change the actual appearance / style / detail of the items, they retained all of those elements, you could just shade them to make your equipment look a bit more like a 'set'. You could still see which items they were, they just had a colour laid over the top of the details. The colours could also be stripped off to reveal the original colour if you felt the need to do so later on (maybe you eventually obtained the full set that finally matched), and the more potent the colour (lower quality dyes / enamels were quite watered down, so didn't cover well), the more pigment they had in them. The highest quality dyes (for cloth / leather) and enamels (weapons, plate or chain armour) were quite expensive, and I 'think' they could be crafted as part of one of the trade skills. This system worked quite well, it still allowed the achievement of acquiring powerful / rare items to be flaunted, and it also stopped the 'court jester' look which isn't particularly appealing.

    I apologize for the rant, but transmog really does blow my mind. It's synonymous with people that buy a car body kit that resembles a Ferarri, which they then fit to something like a Ford Focus. Imagine if everyone put Ferarri body kits on their cars, would the actual Ferarri blending in with the ocean of fakes have the same appeal?


    This post was edited by Shadowbound at November 22, 2019 4:08 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    November 22, 2019 7:27 AM PST

    No need to worry about any of that Shadowbound.  Don't let trigger words / misconceptions / false narratives dictate the flow of dialogue.  None of those issues will exist in Pantheon.  There is a list of game tenets for a reason.

    • 1315 posts
    November 22, 2019 8:42 AM PST

    @shadowbound

    I was a fan of the DAoC color/dye system.  It allowed for a lot of visual flexibility while leaving items recognizable.  There was also a cost/prestige tiering system to the dyes themselves.

    I can see the point behind transmog going too far as well.  No mater what I would restrict any transmog to like type items then also have basically an artifact tier that cannot be used in any transmog system.

    All of this becomes fairly irrelevant if the game is itemized in such a way that a level 10 raid boss could in theory drop an item that a level 50 adventurer would want to wear as primary adventuring gear.  There are lots of ways to make that happen.   A robust crafting system could also be utilized to fill in visual gaps at a similar but generic looking power tier.  Your unique items would still be the focal point, it just wouldn’t be distracted by mismatching one off pieces of gear.

    • 124 posts
    November 22, 2019 1:48 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    No need to worry about any of that Shadowbound.  Don't let trigger words / misconceptions / false narratives dictate the flow of dialogue.  None of those issues will exist in Pantheon.  There is a list of game tenets for a reason.

     

    You're correct, I should give the devs more credit!

    I think the reason I react to this so extremely is because I'd never heard of transmog up until just recently, I was watching a World of Warcraft stream and I couldn't believe people were able to just click a button and take on the cosmetic appearance of items that were incredibly hard to obtain. I guess it shows just how over-saturated WoW is in terms of loot that nobody cares, even in relation to raid loot because it's all just throw away.


    This post was edited by Shadowbound at November 22, 2019 1:51 PM PST
    • 1315 posts
    November 22, 2019 3:17 PM PST

    @shadowbound

    At least originally the WoW transmog still required you to actually go get that item and add it to your transmog library.  I am uncertain if it is still that way.  If I ever went back to play I would enjoy making any high level bow I obtained look like my Rhok'delar that I earned back in Vanilia.  It was a cool graphic and an item I worked really hard to get and at the time it really required skill to kill the demons.  It got less impressive to complete it as people over geared the quest.  No dropped bow or gun I got after that ever had the same pride for me.  Unfortunately it did not last long into Burning Crusade as mid expansion quest drops out damaged it.

    • 1247 posts
    November 23, 2019 6:04 AM PST

    @Shadowbound Thank you for bringing up DAoC. You are right to have every reason to be concerned about transmogs and “appearance slots.” It is as bad as it sounds. I do not think I would enjoy a Pantheon with these either. DAoC and Classic EQ didn‘t have that absurdity because they were actually good games. 

    Fyi: Marc Jacobs is leading the production of Camelot Unchained, which is of course the spiritual successor to his DAoC. I need to read up on it more (pvp focused & that’s fine with me), but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on. I will more than likely pledge to it now. I owe Marc Jacobs at least as much, and it’s always nice to have options.


    This post was edited by Syrif at November 23, 2019 6:35 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    November 23, 2019 7:13 AM PST

    Syrif said:

    @Shadowbound Thank you for bringing up DAoC. You are right to have every reason to be concerned about transmogs and “appearance slots.” It is as bad as it sounds. I do not think I would enjoy a Pantheon with these either. DAoC and Classic EQ didn‘t have that absurdity because they were actually good games.

    Could you please clarify what you mean here:  "It is as bad as it sounds."

    Shadowbound brought up several major issues that would in no way shape or form be present in Pantheon.  You seem to think that they will.  Please clarify.

    • 18 posts
    November 24, 2019 1:50 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters

    Option 2 - all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons

    • 3 posts
    November 24, 2019 6:51 AM PST

    "rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons?"

    This!!! Please why is this even a question? Please don't start stearing off the original goal now... :S

    • 2 posts
    November 24, 2019 8:49 AM PST

    Just to throw my hat in - I'm definitely for giving the player the freedom to customize their character however they see fit, within the context of the world around them and preferably not at the expense of ruining some else's immersion.

    With that in mind, I think it tends to get a bit slippery when you allow a transmog system in. I'd much rather see light customization of equippable gear, such as dyes, and possibly the inclusion of more cosmetically inclined clothing that is meant to be worn outside of combat. Something I rather enjoyed in my MUD days was having 'hunting' gear for adventuring, and a more varied wardrobe for events and tasks about town. 

    Even if someone isn't a heavy roleplayer, like my wife, it's nice for them to have the option to say, "I'm going to be crafting for an hour or two, let me change into my crafting clothes.", or something to that effect.

    It's always good to have options.


    This post was edited by poetbones at November 24, 2019 10:59 AM PST
    • 25 posts
    November 24, 2019 9:04 AM PST

    I am personally of the opinion that plate armor should look like plate armor, and a sword should look like a sword.

    Not a huge fan of players walking around looking like christmas trees, but to each their own.

     

    I'm not against customization, however, and I wouldn't mind being able to find and add appearance customizable items in the game, like adding the shoulder pads you like to your chest armor (or shoulder armor. I don't know which armor slots exist), or adding bits and bobs to your belt, adding a custom hilt to your sword.

    If people really really wanted different looks, I think it could be a fun, immersive and interesting thing to have Enchanters create "illusions" for people's armors, either timed or "permanent" (until changed by an enchanter). That would give people customization options and still keep it in the game world. I definitely see options and solutions that don't necessarily have to be a completely open "transmogrification" system.