Riahuf22 said:I honestly feel like I'm being trolled by this question and even trying to answer it seems like i would do nothing but feed the beast so I'm going to let this one go.
I figured I was being trolled by the suggestion that enchanter illusion is okay (in accordance with your immersion) because that's how it worked 20 years ago, but appearance slots are not okay (in accordance with your immersion) because inanimate objects couldn't project thoughts/feelings that allowed them to physically transform, in that same game. I was making a point that appearance slots are used for a very specific reason ... one that you either ignored or were not aware of "the last time you checked." The point of appearance gear is to afford players better control of how their characters appear in the world. Pantheon is a game that has greatly emphasized shared experiences as part of the core gameplay. Giving players a toggle that disables the appearance of others is the same thing as purposely creating/facilitating visual disparity. Purposely creating/facilitating visual disparity is contradictive to creating a shared experience, and as such, I really hope that VR reconsiders their decision. It is contradictive to the essence of Pantheon.
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:I honestly feel like I'm being trolled by this question and even trying to answer it seems like i would do nothing but feed the beast so I'm going to let this one go.
I figured I was being trolled by the suggestion that enchanter illusion is okay (in accordance with your immersion) because that's how it worked 20 years ago, but appearance slots are not okay (in accordance with your immersion) because inanimate objects couldn't project thoughts/feelings that allowed them to physically transform, in that same game. I was making a point that appearance slots are used for a very specific reason ... one that you either ignored or were not aware of "the last time you checked." The point of appearance gear is to afford players better control of how their characters appear in the world. Pantheon is a game that has greatly emphasized shared experiences as part of the core gameplay. Giving players a toggle that disables the appearance of others is the same thing as purposely creating/facilitating visual disparity. Purposely creating/facilitating visual disparity is contradictive to creating a shared experience, and as such, I really hope that VR reconsiders their decision. It is contradictive to the essence of Pantheon.
You must be dense if you really think I think armor have emotions, obvious i was being sarcastic and meant that i don't believe armor should change appearance simply becuase the person wearing it wanted to change appearance due to a chnage of heart or had a change in mood, and again if somehow enchanters changing forms seems like it should break my immersion than obviously you have never played a game i hold close to my heart and simply due to that fact i have no reason to further this discussion with you. Now stop replying to my post I'm tired of my phone going off after i clearly said twice now I'm done replying to this topic
ADseven I don’t think so. I would think those appearance slots damage the shared experience!
Beefcake said:I campaign for a pure system, not a bastardization. I would prefer no appearance gear over giving me the option to express myself, only to have someone have the option of simply negate my choices.
Dont give me a choice if my choice doesn't matter. The illusion of choice is worse than no choice.
Precisely, Beefcake. This illusion of choice that you speak of is also directly responsible for the visual disparity that I mentioned in my last post. I do not think that the toggle compromise is viable. I'd like to respond to a few arguments that have been made.
1) There is an argument that appearance slots would allow players to "misrepresent" their characters. Seeing that this is a roleplaying game, I don't see the issue with allowing players to add context to how they represent their characters. There is no advantage or disadvantage to be had here since every player would have the same opportunity to go out and collect gear. If hiding gear behind appearance slots does provide some sort of tactical edge, this is a form of strategy that would be accessible to all players. Plenty of positives to be had here.
2) There is an argument that the toggle only affects the observer, and if the observer didn't directly tell us that they had the toggle turned off, we would never know, and thus not be affected. This is false. Pantheon is an open-world game that promotes social interactions between players. The "shared experience" mantra is embedded deep into the core of what makes Pantheon sticky for its target audience. The interactions that occur between players are often going to be based on perception and one of the most critical components of perception is tied to our appearance. Visual disparity compromises the integrity of these interactions. If I want my character to appear as a battle forged veteran, one with dirt/scratches/dents on his armor, and no helmet ... but another player sees him as wearing a shiny set of squeaky clean plate mail, complete with a polished frog-mouth helmet ... the "shared experience" is toast. Immersion is shattered. Again ... the way that players react and/or interact with each other is based on perception. The appearance toggle destroys that perception.
3) There is an argument that players who pay a subscription fee shouldn't be forced to see the appearance of other characters for reasons X/Y/Z. (Appearance gear is fake, it destroys their immersion, bill of rights, etc.) The reality is that Pantheon is an open-world MMORPG. MM = Massively Multiplayer. We aren't talking about a single-player game that is designed with a solo/exclusive experience in mind. The world is not being designed to accommodate our own personal fantasies. The world is, however, going to be full of other real players who have thoughts, feelings, wants and desires of their own. We all get to control a character that will have an influence on the world. Self-expression is not something you deactivate with a switch.
4) There is an argument that the existence of appearance slots means that the game is headed toward santa hats, candy cane swords, lightsabers, angel wings, and other garbage items that are typically found in a cash shop. This has already been refuted multiple times but I'm going to quote Brad again from a previous thread:
Aradune said:Cosmetic items still have to be earned, either a drop, a quest reward, or bought for in-game currency. Please de-couple cosmetic items with the need for a cash shop -- unnecessary.
Based on the above quote ... if the game does end up having santa hats, candy cane swords, lightsabers, angel wings, or other garbage items that are typically found in a cash shop ... they would be derived from standard gameplay, not a cash shop. Meaning they are dropped from an NPC, are earned as a quest reward, or purchased for in-game currency. It is highly unlikely that we see any of those things being designed into the core game but this is probably another area that could use some clarification.
@oneADseven @disposalist @Iksar
After reading/glossing over every post page 1-15, I decided just to tag a few of you who seemed heavily invested and well thought out. Interested in your thoughts on my opinion/ideas, as you three seemed to represent different sides of the argument. No offense to most of the others who I didn't tag (a couple of you gave me a headache though).
Anyways, when I first read the question, my gut reaction was to say Heck No! The main reasons I am not for cosmetic/transmog/what-ever-you-wanna-call-it options:
1. I want to be able to gauge my opponents power based on what I see them wearing / wielding. Although not a hardcore PvP'er, it is an important aspect of any MMO to me. I will be hard pressed to play an MMO that doesn't give me some way to engage an unwilling player controlled character in the open world (I really hope Pantheon let's us for my sake).
2. You should have to earn what you wear.
3. The only thing worse than everyone looking the same at end game (min/max best item, stuff doesn't match, or everyone acquires best/most epic set), is everyone wearing matching cosmetic outfits that look the same that are "easily" obtainable. For example:
- there is a low level dungeon that has a black leather set so 90% of max level rogues wear it cause it's easily farmable and all look the same
- there is a very cool looking level 30 cloth headpiece (perhaps it is used for a quest or dropped from a named mob or boss) so half the casters over level 30 have it and 'wear' it forever
- there is a mace that drops off a named mob with a unique graphic (perhaps its a peg leg that has a wooden foot/toes off the end of it) so 1 out of every 3 dual wielders in the world have two floppy feet mace legs, one in each hand
4. Immersion breaking cosmetic decisions. Plate looking like cloth and vice versa. Or anyone going to battle in a torn Tee-shirt and sandals.
5. Players should be able to know what you've accomplished or how powerful/capable you are simply by seeing you in your gear.
As I said, my gut told me Heck No! Mainly for the reasons above and the fact that my appearance is not a huge importance to me. But I understand that appearance might be the MOST important thing to others. I'm all for keeping as many passionate players interested in this game with me. As with any game mechanic or feature with people on opposite sides of the spectrum, we have 3 options. Your way, my way, or the highw a compromise. Previous VR posts suggest a compromise type solution is what they are seeking.
Toggle: As has been discussed (even though some just can't wrap their head around it), a toggle is a horrible option. Just horrible! My wife doesn't put on makeup to go out for her to see herself, but rather so others can see how she wants to represent herself (her mood, her status, her passions, etc.) It does not matter to me, but to the people who it matters to - others being able to toggle their chosen appearance off renders the whole idea irrelevant. This is not a compromise for most of the crowd that want cosmetic options, it's a straight up denial.
Proposed solution(s) (or at least ideas) in my compromise plan:
--- No mixing armor classes. A plate wearer in a cloth robe or an wizard wearing chain mail. I've seen many people agree on this.
--- If there are costume type items in the game (christmas hat, tomato suit mascot, masquerade mask, a quest related disguise, a cinderella style ball dress etc.) They should be unavailable to be made into a cosmetic.
--- Gear not intended to be used by "formidable adventurers" should be unavailable to be made into a cosmetic. This would include items such as tattered and ripped clothing, a piece of chainmail that is ripped up/damaged beyond usefulness, or a boiling pot as a helmet. Perhaps these items existed at very low levels, or were retrieved off a mob, but to a reasonable person appear totally unserviceable/damaged.
--- Let's say there is a semi unquie very powerful sword or robe in an end game dungeon that just happens to have a mid level dungeon item to share a model with it. I don't think players should be able to disguise a weaker item to look like a powerful and recognizable end game item because they were clever enough to find out what lower level item shares a model with it. VR should restrict specific items from being able to be used cosmetically at their discretion, this being a good example.
--- Lower level unique dungeon sets should not be allowed to be used cosmetically. A unique dungeon set should mean what it actually means, that you have it, have earned it, and are weilding it's power level. If these are not restricted, we will see half the player base have farmed that dungeon to look cool, and everyone looking the exact same.
--- Allow small cosmetic changes like dyes or modifications (ie baggy vs. tight fitting robe, skirt length, sleeve type) to be done by players (tailors, leatherworks, armorsmiths) at a relatively cheap/affordable rate. These changes should be realistic and tasteful (ie you can't dye your black leather shoulder pads neon green). I don't want to see people walking around as a glow stick of their favorite color. I'm hesitant with this in thinking a lot of people will just dye everything yellow/pink/orange and look rather silly.
--- Allow actual transfer of stats from one item to another like item (or unlocking an item to be able to be used in a cosmetic slot). I believe this option should be moderately expensive (ie. an hour or two worth of grinding/farming materials or currency per item... perhaps a lot more for end game items). This should be relative to level, that way its affordable while leveling but also expensive enough to make a dent in an endgame wallet. You would still be able to use that perfect 'hat model' the entire game, you would just have to pay that fee every time you got a new item that you wanted to transfer the stats off of. IMO this would limit people from just changing willy nilly on a whim without having to 'earn' it.
* The above would solve many of my concerns, but doesn't make a dent on the PvP aspect or judging achievements/power level. A few more proposals:
--- Allow transmog or transfer of stats to be restricted to rarity in some way, at least at max level. I really really will dislike a raid geared wizard to be running by in a simple robe with a basic vendor staff for me to find out after I attack him that he was max level raid gear in every slot. This one is not a total deal breaker to me, but I personally don't like the idea of walking and fooling people without having to actually take off and put on gear.
--- WEAPONS: When it comes to power level of a character and PvP implications, the weapon of a melee character or ranged character give a lot away. For me it is 100% a given that Maces must look like maces, and swords stay swords, etc. as different weapon types may indicate different skill/abilities and strategies that need come into play and I would be highly discouraged to play the game if a warrior could make his sword look like an axe because he likes the way axes look). But I would take it a step further and even categorize a specific weapon type into more than one transmog category.
> For example, weapon speed and weapon size. A small hatchet that swings at 1.6 should not be able to take the place of a large double sided reaper that swings at 2.9, even though they are both 1H axes. First, it would look silly and break immersion. Second, it would have negative PvP implications. Same goes for a 2H Mace that is 7ft long and has a head that weighs 150lbs being tured into a baseball bat that my 1 yr old could swing because it is also classified as a 2H mace.
--- At the very least, I think that end game unique weapons (even caster staffs / off hands) should not be able to be altered in appearance. The "Gauntlet of Thanos" (a fist weapon from the final boss in the raid) should not be able look like a pair of pastic brass knuckles that you pulled out of the cracker jack box.
TL:DR
The simple answer for me is I don't want it in the game, but I am willing to compromise if there are that many people who feel it's one of the more important aspects to them enjoying the game. A toggle is a horrible option, as the point is some people want to choose what they look like to others, not just themselves. I personally think there should be some careful considerations and limitations to what can be and can't be visual changed or used as a cosmetic as to lessen the impact on PvP, immersion, and uniqueness. In the end I do think it would be beneficial to crafting classes and in-game economy to allow it in the game, and I guess I can admit I would rather look "cool" than a hodge podge mismatch all the time.
Beefcake said:Riahuf22 said:last post seriously now
if i were to not compromise at all i would say get rid of all appearance gear as it holds no value to the game.
Which is a perfectly valid opinion and stance.
I campaign for a pure system, not a bastardization. I would prefer no appearance gear over giving me the option to express myself, only to have someone have the option of simply negate my choices.
Dont give me a choice if my choice doesn't matter. The illusion of choice is worse than no choice.
The biggest problem with this stance is we alrdy know in Pantheon they're will be cosmetic gear, so that stance is taken away from us, not saying thats a bad thing but to say you want to to not compromise in a way that beenfits me the same way your trying to benefit yourself simply doesn't exsist, so in order for people like me to actually be happy we would like a choice to simply not see it. And again sense the option of not allowing cosmetic gear to be in pantheon, they should give us something to migidgate the impact it has on us, even if it makes the people who loves cosmetic gear angry, becuase putting in cosmetic gear from the beginning didn't make me happy but i'm really to accept it with a compromise, and again you might not like me having a choice of seeing cosmetic gear but does that honestly mean i should be stuck looking at a world when i feel like most of the world is running around in Cosmetic Gear and ruining my immersion just to make you happy, yeah that sounds like a pretty piss poor way of dealing with something just becuase it makes you completely happy, and has me completely digusted.
A point a lot of you seem to not understand is that you will never have complete freedom over your characters. Terminus is not our world, it is Visionary Realms' world, and our characters can only ever exist within the parameters VR sets for them. Both arguments that have been going back and forth for weeks now are ridiculous, because what you want doesn't matter in a curated world. You will only ever get what VR allows you to have.
eunichron said:A point a lot of you seem to not understand is that you will never have complete freedom over your characters. Terminus is not our world, it is Visionary Realms' world, and our characters can only ever exist within the parameters VR sets for them. Both arguments that have been going back and forth for weeks now are ridiculous, because what you want doesn't matter in a curated world. You will only ever get what VR allows you to have.
So your saying all debates are pointless and its click bait when the Devs have ask for us to have a debate simply to just ignore everyone and they are going to do what they want anyway? I highly doubt that is something they are doing, if they wanted us to have a debate its becuase they wanted to know all sides of everyone's opinion, not to have someone come in and say what we are doing is pointless and should never debate something becuase VR isn't listening.
Kass said:@oneADseven @disposalist @Iksar
After reading/glossing over every post page 1-15, I decided just to tag a few of you who seemed heavily invested and well thought out. Interested in your thoughts on my opinion/ideas, as you three seemed to represent different sides of the argument. No offense to most of the others who I didn't tag (a couple of you gave me a headache though).
Anyways, when I first read the question, my gut reaction was to say Heck No! The main reasons I am not for cosmetic/transmog/what-ever-you-wanna-call-it options:
1. I want to be able to gauge my opponents power based on what I see them wearing / wielding. Although not a hardcore PvP'er, it is an important aspect of any MMO to me. I will be hard pressed to play an MMO that doesn't give me some way to engage an unwilling player controlled character in the open world (I really hope Pantheon let's us for my sake).
2. You should have to earn what you wear.
3. The only thing worse than everyone looking the same at end game (min/max best item, stuff doesn't match, or everyone acquires best/most epic set), is everyone wearing matching cosmetic outfits that look the same that are "easily" obtainable. For example:
- there is a low level dungeon that has a black leather set so 90% of max level rogues wear it cause it's easily farmable and all look the same
- there is a very cool looking level 30 cloth headpiece (perhaps it is used for a quest or dropped from a named mob or boss) so half the casters over level 30 have it and 'wear' it forever
- there is a mace that drops off a named mob with a unique graphic (perhaps its a peg leg that has a wooden foot/toes off the end of it) so 1 out of every 3 dual wielders in the world have two floppy feet mace legs, one in each hand
4. Immersion breaking cosmetic decisions. Plate looking like cloth and vice versa. Or anyone going to battle in a torn Tee-shirt and sandals.5. Players should be able to know what you've accomplished or how powerful/capable you are simply by seeing you in your gear.
As I said, my gut told me Heck No! Mainly for the reasons above and the fact that my appearance is not a huge importance to me. But I understand that appearance might be the MOST important thing to others. I'm all for keeping as many passionate players interested in this game with me. As with any game mechanic or feature with people on opposite sides of the spectrum, we have 3 options. Your way, my way, or the highw a compromise. Previous VR posts suggest a compromise type solution is what they are seeking.
Toggle: As has been discussed (even though some just can't wrap their head around it), a toggle is a horrible option. Just horrible! My wife doesn't put on makeup to go out for her to see herself, but rather so others can see how she wants to represent herself (her mood, her status, her passions, etc.) It does not matter to me, but to the people who it matters to - others being able to toggle their chosen appearance off renders the whole idea irrelevant. This is not a compromise for most of the crowd that want cosmetic options, it's a straight up denial.
Proposed solution(s) (or at least ideas) in my compromise plan:
--- No mixing armor classes. A plate wearer in a cloth robe or an wizard wearing chain mail. I've seen many people agree on this.
--- If there are costume type items in the game (christmas hat, tomato suit mascot, masquerade mask, a quest related disguise, a cinderella style ball dress etc.) They should be unavailable to be made into a cosmetic.
--- Gear not intended to be used by "formidable adventurers" should be unavailable to be made into a cosmetic. This would include items such as tattered and ripped clothing, a piece of chainmail that is ripped up/damaged beyond usefulness, or a boiling pot as a helmet. Perhaps these items existed at very low levels, or were retrieved off a mob, but to a reasonable person appear totally unserviceable/damaged.
--- Let's say there is a semi unquie very powerful sword or robe in an end game dungeon that just happens to have a mid level dungeon item to share a model with it. I don't think players should be able to disguise a weaker item to look like a powerful and recognizable end game item because they were clever enough to find out what lower level item shares a model with it. VR should restrict specific items from being able to be used cosmetically at their discretion, this being a good example.
--- Lower level unique dungeon sets should not be allowed to be used cosmetically. A unique dungeon set should mean what it actually means, that you have it, have earned it, and are weilding it's power level. If these are not restricted, we will see half the player base have farmed that dungeon to look cool, and everyone looking the exact same.
--- Allow small cosmetic changes like dyes or modifications (ie baggy vs. tight fitting robe, skirt length, sleeve type) to be done by players (tailors, leatherworks, armorsmiths) at a relatively cheap/affordable rate. These changes should be realistic and tasteful (ie you can't dye your black leather shoulder pads neon green). I don't want to see people walking around as a glow stick of their favorite color. I'm hesitant with this in thinking a lot of people will just dye everything yellow/pink/orange and look rather silly.
--- Allow actual transfer of stats from one item to another like item (or unlocking an item to be able to be used in a cosmetic slot). I believe this option should be moderately expensive (ie. an hour or two worth of grinding/farming materials or currency per item... perhaps a lot more for end game items). This should be relative to level, that way its affordable while leveling but also expensive enough to make a dent in an endgame wallet. You would still be able to use that perfect 'hat model' the entire game, you would just have to pay that fee every time you got a new item that you wanted to transfer the stats off of. IMO this would limit people from just changing willy nilly on a whim without having to 'earn' it.
* The above would solve many of my concerns, but doesn't make a dent on the PvP aspect or judging achievements/power level. A few more proposals:
--- Allow transmog or transfer of stats to be restricted to rarity in some way, at least at max level. I really really will dislike a raid geared wizard to be running by in a simple robe with a basic vendor staff for me to find out after I attack him that he was max level raid gear in every slot. This one is not a total deal breaker to me, but I personally don't like the idea of walking and fooling people without having to actually take off and put on gear.
--- WEAPONS: When it comes to power level of a character and PvP implications, the weapon of a melee character or ranged character give a lot away. For me it is 100% a given that Maces must look like maces, and swords stay swords, etc. as different weapon types may indicate different skill/abilities and strategies that need come into play and I would be highly discouraged to play the game if a warrior could make his sword look like an axe because he likes the way axes look). But I would take it a step further and even categorize a specific weapon type into more than one transmog category.> For example, weapon speed and weapon size. A small hatchet that swings at 1.6 should not be able to take the place of a large double sided reaper that swings at 2.9, even though they are both 1H axes. First, it would look silly and break immersion. Second, it would have negative PvP implications. Same goes for a 2H Mace that is 7ft long and has a head that weighs 150lbs being tured into a baseball bat that my 1 yr old could swing because it is also classified as a 2H mace.
--- At the very least, I think that end game unique weapons (even caster staffs / off hands) should not be able to be altered in appearance. The "Gauntlet of Thanos" (a fist weapon from the final boss in the raid) should not be able look like a pair of pastic brass knuckles that you pulled out of the cracker jack box.
TL:DR
The simple answer for me is I don't want it in the game, but I am willing to compromise if there are that many people who feel it's one of the more important aspects to them enjoying the game. A toggle is a horrible option, as the point is some people want to choose what they look like to others, not just themselves. I personally think there should be some careful considerations and limitations to what can be and can't be visual changed or used as a cosmetic as to lessen the impact on PvP, immersion, and uniqueness. In the end I do think it would be beneficial to crafting classes and in-game economy to allow it in the game, and I guess I can admit I would rather look "cool" than a hodge podge mismatch all the time.
Or you can have the toggle, and have dedicated servers to support both sides, and even have a command to manually switch individuals to a desired feature. Becuae quite frankly you think having a toggle is a terrible decision, well guess what i tihnk about cosmetic gear.....yup pretty bad, and useless, if you want to look like your wearing level 20 gear, than slap that puppy on and run around to your hearts content.
eunichron said:A point a lot of you seem to not understand is that you will never have complete freedom over your characters. Terminus is not our world, it is Visionary Realms' world, and our characters can only ever exist within the parameters VR sets for them. Both arguments that have been going back and forth for weeks now are ridiculous, because what you want doesn't matter in a curated world. You will only ever get what VR allows you to have.
Regarding other topics that the devs have already asked us to stop arguing about because VR already made up their minds such as Progeny and MDD v. FTE, I agree. Pointless bickering about theory does nothing when VR has already decided.
However, here VR has asked for opinion. Therefore, it is fair to assume that they actually desire thought out opinions and explanations of WHY it matters to us.
In the end, VR will choose what works for them and we will all have to live with it. But, when they ask for input from the community, we should all be here discussing the topic. It is just as an important part of development as testing systems.
The devs have already stated that production is beyond the point of being open to suggestions from the community. Kilsin has stated that these debate threads are nothing more than him stirring the pot. Notice the thread is titled, "Community Debate," (argue amongst yourselves) not, "We want your feedback" (tell us what you think). They are not asking for our input at this point.
The overarching point is that personal freedom isn't a thing that exists in a curated/controlled space.
I won't get sucked into this, but you all can buy into the clickbait if it makes you feel good.
Riahuf22 said:... and have dedicated servers to support both sides...
I think this is the worst possible option. Pantheon will not be a huge game, admittedly. We can all hope, but let's be realistic. The population base will only be so big. Already, they plan to segregate the population with PVP servers, RP servers, etc. This divides the community already. Appearance gear is not something worthy of dividing the community even further.
Appearance gear is not a play-style. It an aesthetic preference. I would never join a server just because it offered appearance gear options. You join a server with rules that match your playstyle and friendships.
It would be ridiculous to make people choose between self-expression and being a part of their preferred community. We don't all have to agree on every aspect to be part of the same community.
To many, character development, including all aspects, is greatly important. We come to this game to get away from modern societal demands of conformity. We work in professional environments that require us to appear the same as everyone else. Gaming is a release, allowing us to be what we cannot be in real life.
Without appearance gear, soon everyone will look the same. Most fighters will be grinding the same, limited number of zones, gaining the same best in slot equipment with little variation. There will be few choices amongst the best gear. Soon, we will all be lookalike drones, wearing the same gear and, just like in real life, being criticized if we don't wear the optimal gear as everyone else.
At least with appearance gear, we can have solid abilities/stats, while maintaining some individulaity to escape in.
eunichron said:The devs have already stated that production is beyond the point of being open to suggestions from the community. Kilsin has stated that these debate threads are nothing more than him stirring the pot. Notice the thread is titled, "Community Debate," (argue amongst yourselves) not, "We want your feedback" (tell us what you think). They are not asking for our input at this point.
The overarching point is that personal freedom isn't a thing that exists in a curated/controlled space.
I won't get sucked into this, but you all can buy into the clickbait if it makes you feel good.
Apparently you have not read all the other threads where they repeatedly state that many things are still open for development. Not everything has been decided. Some issues are set in stone. Several are not.
Contrary to your drone-like viewpoint. MMOs provide huge personal freedom in a curated/controlled space. That is one of the biggest reasons people are drawn to them versus single-player railroad games. In fact, that's one of main reasons so many MMOs have appearance gear in the first place. A sustainable game with long term playability must entice players to become attached to their characters. Without individual expression, there is little attachment encouraging people to keep coming back and not switching to the newest, shiny game.
The personal attachment to growing, developing, long term invested characters is why I play MMOs and hate MOBAs and games like Fortnite/Overwatch.
eunichron said:The devs have already stated that production is beyond the point of being open to suggestions from the community. Kilsin has stated that these debate threads are nothing more than him stirring the pot. Notice the thread is titled, "Community Debate," (argue amongst yourselves) not, "We want your feedback" (tell us what you think). They are not asking for our input at this point.
The overarching point is that personal freedom isn't a thing that exists in a curated/controlled space.
I won't get sucked into this, but you all can buy into the clickbait if it makes you feel good.
They have literally taken questions from threads like these and answered them in recent dev roundtables.
They are not beyond the point of being open to suggestions *except on certain few issues* where they have stated they want to get their developed solution in front of testers. They may then change things according to testing feedback. There have been one or two like that where Kilsin has said further discussion here is largely pointless.
"Kilsin has stated that these debate threads are nothing more than him stirring the pot" Could you link the source for that?
Even if it were true it doesn't stop us from wanting to discuss. I know this is a special development forum, but *shrug* until PA5 starts I'll be here.
"I won't get sucked into this" And yet you send this post *just* to say posting is pointless?
Kass said:@oneADseven @disposalist @Iksar
...
TL:DR
The simple answer for me is I don't want it in the game, but I am willing to compromise if there are that many people who feel it's one of the more important aspects to them enjoying the game. A toggle is a horrible option, as the point is some people want to choose what they look like to others, not just themselves. I personally think there should be some careful considerations and limitations to what can be and can't be visual changed or used as a cosmetic as to lessen the impact on PvP, immersion, and uniqueness. In the end I do think it would be beneficial to crafting classes and in-game economy to allow it in the game, and I guess I can admit I would rather look "cool" than a hodge podge mismatch all the time.
Answering since you tagged me ;^)
Good post (all of it) and well thought through. I respect your opinion of essentially not wanting it, but being willing to come to a real compromise or at least be willing accept that your feelings might not be more important than others'. That's more than most people.
You are right that PvP upsets the whole debate - it's kind of a seperate debate as they have an extra, unique and very big argument for wanting a toggle (and will be on a seperate server anyway).
I don't think you need to have some of the worries you mention, though. From what VR have said on the matter this far, I believe there effectively will not be 'appearance' items. There will be appearance 'slots' that you can put earned gear into that will override the look of the equipped item. That's it. This effectively means 'appearance' items will be earned and will be appropriate by type and class and won't be any weird cosmetic stuff. This doesn't mean there won't be items that are primarily 'appearance' items, though - VR even give such items for some pledges - but those items will no doubt still be 'normal items' that can be used in an appearance slot.
As far as seeing what you've accomplished, well, one's currently equipped gear reflects what you feel you need for the next encounters. Is that best showing what you've accomplished? Or what that be served by putting your hardest-to-obtain matching set in your appearance slots? Or the rare racial gear you crafted yourself? *shrug*
Anyway, some good ideas in your post. Cheers.
I'm all for what people are wearing is what people see. My problem is how good are the armor designs in the game. take EQ2 for example it all looked like crap. It wasn't until they allowed appearance gear when people could actually look differnt and cooler. VR has already said they designing all their armor to be "realistic" in a fantasy world because reasons. If they don't have a transmog system then they need to a wide variety of looking armors that can be found across the world across all levels.
It's always fun to come across somebody wearing something that is also your taste and getting excited and asking them where they got it and it becomes you're next big mission to hunt that armor piece down.
An Evil enchantress who uses her magic to seduce people should look the part.
Unfortunatly armor design threads get locked down and I think it we are truly going to be able to the question about appearce gear we need to know about armor designs and if it all just looks like Earth Mideval armor then it's a moot point.
Kass said:
Lots of good stuff.
You raise several really good points, particularly the distinction of how an effective compromise can be reached. There is a big difference between having an appearance system that mitigates the valid concerns that have been expressed and implementing a toggle that renders the intended benefits of the system obsolete. I read your entire post and I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective. It was really refreshing to see. With that said, I'd like to respond to many of the points/concerns that you raised. If I miss something important, please let me know.
Kass said:
I want to be able to gauge my opponents power based on what I see them wearing / wielding. Although not a hardcore PvP'er, it is an important aspect of any MMO to me. I will be hard pressed to play an MMO that doesn't give me some way to engage an unwilling player controlled character in the open world (I really hope Pantheon let's us for my sake).
PVP servers will have their own rulesets and balancing. I acknowledge that there are very valid concerns when it comes to how the appearance system would function in the realm of PVP but I think the central focus of this topic should focus on the standard PVE ruleset. I am not trying to downplay the significance of any PVP related concerns. I think adding PVP to the equation is such a significant variable that it would be worthy of having its own topic. As a PVE-focused player, I'm not really sure how much I could contribute to that discussion. I think it would be a fun topic and if/when we get there, I would be interested to see where things go. At this time, though, I would rather not muddy the waters as it's already difficult enough to have any sort of focused/meaningful dialogue on the topic at hand. Please forgive me if this sounds dismissive as that is not my intention at all.
Kass said:You should have to earn what you wear.
Indeed. This is a given and will be 100% expected by every player who pledged with the game tenets in mind. Any deviation from that would contradict those tenets and as such, I think it's fair to assume that we always operate from a mindset where they will be upheld.
Kass said:The only thing worse than everyone looking the same at end game (min/max best item, stuff doesn't match, or everyone acquires best/most epic set), is everyone wearing matching cosmetic outfits that look the same that are "easily" obtainable. For example:
- there is a low level dungeon that has a black leather set so 90% of max level rogues wear it cause it's easily farmable and all look the same
- there is a very cool looking level 30 cloth headpiece (perhaps it is used for a quest or dropped from a named mob or boss) so half the casters over level 30 have it and 'wear' it forever
- there is a mace that drops off a named mob with a unique graphic (perhaps its a peg leg that has a wooden foot/toes off the end of it) so 1 out of every 3 dual wielders in the world have two floppy feet mace legs, one in each hand
One of the biggest draws to Pantheon is that it is an open-world game. The nature of an open-world game suggests that certain items can be very difficult to obtain, even if they are earned from low-level content. I have referenced FFXI quite a bit over the years and I feel this is an appropriate time to do it again. Some of the most iconic/valuable items in that game came from low-level content. That said, they were still quite difficult to obtain because the items themselves were very rare. Your concerns are valid but they are all things that can/will hopefully be designed around. Loot saturation is heavily mitigated in an open-world game due to controllable parameters.
Kass said:Immersion breaking cosmetic decisions. Plate looking like cloth and vice versa. Or anyone going to battle in a torn Tee-shirt and sandals.
I would propose the following restrictions for appearance slots:
1) The weapon/armor type must match for both the standard and appearance slot. If you want your character to appear as wearing cloth then you need to have a cloth item equipped in the standard slot. If you want your character to appear as wielding a 2H Sword, you must have a 2H sword equipped in the standard slot.
2) Race/Class restrictions would apply. Warriors would not be able to place a "paladin only" helmet in the appearance slot for their helmet. Ogres would not be able to place a "gnome only" pair of gloves in the appearance slot for their gloves.
3) Level restrictions would apply. If a breastplate has a minimum level requirement of 20 to wear it, you must be level 20 or higher to place it in an appearance slot.
4) Adventure armor restrictions would apply. This means that formal garb, crafting gear, harvesting gear, festive gear, roleplaying gear or any other non-adventure-specific gear could not be placed in an appearance slot. No dungeon crawling in sundresses or cooking aprons. If a player wants to try and do that, they could, but they would have to equip those items in a standard slot as they would all be ineligible for appearance slots. Seeing that those kind of items generally do not offer combat stats, using them during combat would be a death wish.
Kass said:Players should be able to know what you've accomplished or how powerful/capable you are simply by seeing you in your gear.
Appearance slots would allow players to show off the accomplishments that they are most proud of. Many games allow this to happen even without appearance slots but this type of occurrence is usually restricted to non-combat situations. When games are designed to be challenging, like Pantheon is, every stat matters. This prevents players from portraying a set of gear that better represents their accomplishments in favor of maximum combat efficiency. The game should not be easy enough to where players are willing to sacrifice stats for appearance and therein lies one of the biggest incentives for offering appearance slots in the first place. This is very similar to the /hidehelmet command that has been featured in dozens of MMORPG's.
As far as other players being able to gauge how powerful/capable you are, simply by seeing your gear, this makes a lot more sense in a PVP setting but I'm going to avoid delving into that further. I agree that there is some merit in a PVE setting as well but I think that emphasizing this mentality fosters a lot of negative behavior. I think the best solution for this is to implement an /inspect command while also allowing players to use the /anonymous command which prevents other players from being able to inspect them. If Player A asks Player B to enable /inspect so that they can gauge their armor, that is social interaction. This gives player B an option to either accept or decline the request, which could then lead to further interaction. Depending on how that goes, Player A may then demand that Player B turns on /inspect if they want to join the group. Once again, Player B has an option to comply with or deny that demand.
These are very basic social hurdles that are good for the overall health of the game, in my opinion. We should not encourage a culture where players can freely judge others based on their stats/equipment. There are certain in-game scenarios where it absolutely makes sense to do that, but it should be up to the players to figure all of that out. When it comes to having a reputation in the community, players will likely remember these kinds of social interactions. Did the group leader invite you in a way that made you feel comfortable, or did they insist that you pass the eye-test before they would consider playing with you? Little details like this matter and it eventually leads to building a more genuine sense of trust and respect. The gear/stats of other players should not be considered "pertinent information" as a general rule of thumb. Let social constructs emerge rather than applying a universal truth for all situations.
Kass said:Toggle: As has been discussed (even though some just can't wrap their head around it), a toggle is a horrible option. Just horrible! My wife doesn't put on makeup to go out for her to see herself, but rather so others can see how she wants to represent herself (her mood, her status, her passions, etc.) It does not matter to me, but to the people who it matters to - others being able to toggle their chosen appearance off renders the whole idea irrelevant. This is not a compromise for most of the crowd that want cosmetic options, it's a straight up denial.
100% agreed. I have always felt that the toggle felt off and really appreciate the comments from folks like you, Disposalist, Jabir, Beefcake, Trasak, MauvaisOeil, Liav, and Walpurgis, as they helped me come to the same realization. The toggle is not conducive to creating a shared experience and I would rather see appearance slots removed from the game than a bastardized implementation that provides nothing more than the illusion of choice.
Kass said:Lower level unique dungeon sets should not be allowed to be used cosmetically. A unique dungeon set should mean what it actually means, that you have it, have earned it, and are weilding it's power level. If these are not restricted, we will see half the player base have farmed that dungeon to look cool, and everyone looking the exact same.
I touched on this earlier in my post. Loot saturation is naturally controlled in an open-world game and this situation should be prevented by good game design. That said, I think it's important that the appearance of an item is commensurate with the difficulty to obtain it. If VR wants to create "rare exceptions" where certain low-level gear is aesthetically pleasing, I think that would be great for the game. The Ceremonial Vestment and Specter Robe were two of the most iconic items in EQOA -- both were level 30 or lower, but extremely rare. Based on comments from Joppa in previous newsletters, earning a full set of armor should be considered a "rarer accomplishment" in and of itself. This is great news as it shows that the intended design path already factors your concern into consideration.
Kass said:Let's say there is a semi unique very powerful sword or robe in an end game dungeon that just happens to have a mid level dungeon item to share a model with it. I don't think players should be able to disguise a weaker item to look like a powerful and recognizable end game item because they were clever enough to find out what lower level item shares a model with it. VR should restrict specific items from being able to be used cosmetically at their discretion, this being a good example.
Agreed.
Kass said:Allow small cosmetic changes like dyes or modifications (ie baggy vs. tight fitting robe, skirt length, sleeve type) to be done by players (tailors, leatherworks, armorsmiths) at a relatively cheap/affordable rate. These changes should be realistic and tasteful (ie you can't dye your black leather shoulder pads neon green). I don't want to see people walking around as a glow stick of their favorite color. I'm hesitant with this in thinking a lot of people will just dye everything yellow/pink/orange and look rather silly.
I would prefer to not see any sort of dye system in Pantheon as it detracts from the idea of items maintaining their iconic identity. The only way I see a dye system working is if the dye components themselves are what become iconic. "Look at that Ogre ... he has the bloodstone dye on his full set of gear!" I wouldn't be a fan of that, personally. Allowing players to alter the appearance of their gear with dye would likely contribute to the concern you mentioned in the quote just before this one.
Kass said:Allow actual transfer of stats from one item to another like item (or unlocking an item to be able to be used in a cosmetic slot). I believe this option should be moderately expensive (ie. an hour or two worth of grinding/farming materials or currency per item... perhaps a lot more for end game items). This should be relative to level, that way its affordable while leveling but also expensive enough to make a dent in an endgame wallet. You would still be able to use that perfect 'hat model' the entire game, you would just have to pay that fee every time you got a new item that you wanted to transfer the stats off of. IMO this would limit people from just changing willy nilly on a whim without having to 'earn' it.
I would support some sort of "wardrobe" implementation that requires players to sacrifice an item in order to add it to their appearance collection. I think this would be a great item-sink and reinforce many of the benefits associated with the appearance system in general. (Horizontal Progression, Minimizing Item Value Deflation, Content Relevance)
Beefcake said:Riahuf22 said:... and have dedicated servers to support both sides...
I think this is the worst possible option. Pantheon will not be a huge game, admittedly. We can all hope, but let's be realistic. The population base will only be so big. Already, they plan to segregate the population with PVP servers, RP servers, etc. This divides the community already. Appearance gear is not something worthy of dividing the community even further.
Appearance gear is not a play-style. It an aesthetic preference. I would never join a server just because it offered appearance gear options. You join a server with rules that match your playstyle and friendships.
It would be ridiculous to make people choose between self-expression and being a part of their preferred community. We don't all have to agree on every aspect to be part of the same community.
To many, character development, including all aspects, is greatly important. We come to this game to get away from modern societal demands of conformity. We work in professional environments that require us to appear the same as everyone else. Gaming is a release, allowing us to be what we cannot be in real life.
Without appearance gear, soon everyone will look the same. Most fighters will be grinding the same, limited number of zones, gaining the same best in slot equipment with little variation. There will be few choices amongst the best gear. Soon, we will all be lookalike drones, wearing the same gear and, just like in real life, being criticized if we don't wear the optimal gear as everyone else.
At least with appearance gear, we can have solid abilities/stats, while maintaining some individulaity to escape in.
If you seriously think having 2 servers of each rule set is spreading our community to much, than my opinion of how successful will be compared to you is completely different, I could easily see at least 20 healthy servers, and to have at least a few servers support the whole cosmetic gear feature at all times seems to much to you than I don't know what to say to you.
And of you think having appearance gear gets away from everyone looking alike than your even more wrong especially at the beginning and towards the end, people will first put on the first one they find, and if at a low level they find a color they like they will try to get more to match it. (Early) and once you get to end game and pieces have been collected for quite so same people try to match some of the best looking sets through other people's opinion and theirs, or follow the look of their GM, or streamer and after this you might see dominantly like 12 total sets after all said and done and didn't achieve the one thing you were saying that appearance gear is actually suppose to prevent when it merely just feeds the same beats in another way.
Riahuf22 said:If you seriously think having 2 servers of each rule set is spreading our community to much, than my opinion of how successful will be compared to you is completely different, I could easily see at least 20 healthy servers, and to have at least 4 servers support the whole cosmetic gear feature at all times seems to much to you than I don't know what to say to you, and let's not kid ourselves, the only true reason why you think this wouldn't work isn't because of the health of pantheon when it finally drops but more likely having enough people who share you PoV specifically to the point your server would be healthy compared to others
+ region servers...
MauvaisOeil said:Riahuf22 said:If you seriously think having 2 servers of each rule set is spreading our community to much, than my opinion of how successful will be compared to you is completely different, I could easily see at least 20 healthy servers, and to have at least 4 servers support the whole cosmetic gear feature at all times seems to much to you than I don't know what to say to you, and let's not kid ourselves, the only true reason why you think this wouldn't work isn't because of the health of pantheon when it finally drops but more likely having enough people who share you PoV specifically to the point your server would be healthy compared to others
+ region servers...
Sry wasn't trying to exclude a server type I was just typing fast, please accept this apology
MauvaisOeil said:Simply saying 20 server overall will be split into two or three regions, then split by "custom rules", which might be really more tight than you really consider.
Doesn't mean it can't happen, and me personally am not trying to split the playerbase, but if people are so determined to make sure I can't have a toggle so I can see what I want the way I want on a game I am paying for in monthly fees, than I'll have to go and find other ways to have it to where I can have people with like minded minds to be happy, even if it is to be shut down because they enjoy finding ways to say it shouldn't happen because how it affects them if I do even though they seem to completely ignore that they are affecting me and don't seem to care because they are happy