Venjenz said:Porygon said:what is even the reason for the forums!
To be positive and uplifting. What else?
On topic - in the end, I have played every online game since UO, so whatever the travel system ends up being, I've done it before and can do it again. In my humble opinion, I would imagine that would hold true for most of the Pantheon faithful. So why question what is coming when we can simply be positive and uplifiting about it?
Well you are welcome to your opinion but I think you are wrong on your assumption that the "Pantheon faithful" will just go along with whatever is done in the game. I personaly have three points that I won't compromise on. If the game doesnt have a harsh enough death penalty, if it has easy instant travel that doesnt require player interaction, and if you can progress skills or crafting while offline I am out. I think everyone has something that will cause them to walk away from the game. If you don't then you don't really matter do you? You are a given and can be safely ignored.
You can be positive and give good feedback, thats fine. But it is also good to give negative feedback. The guys in charge can consider or ignore it. It's there show, but to just be here to be positive and uplifting really doesn't do the developers or the players a real service.
The topic of travel is especially good to discuss in a forum like this because it is something that really can be changed in almost no time. they can go from only player porting to transportation stones so fast. On something that is that easy to change the pros and cons for both sides need to be communicated and new ideas should be conjured up. Once you go to easy travel you really can't take it back. At least I have never seen a game take that away from the players. It needs to be considered carefully before it's thrown in the game. I think they are taking it seriouusly.
I think the discussion is great.
I entirely agree with Sabot that discussion of points like this is very useful. VR has demonstrated that they pay attention to these forums, and while the game is not being developed as a democratic process (thank all Gods) they do care what people think and are willing to consider alternatives, especially when logically presented without too much drama. Even when they have announced a tentative decision, it is subject to change based on testing or simply because they think there is a better way that will not take more resources or delay things.
I also agree that most of us have some breaking point, beyond which we will not remain loyal supporters. I do *not* think that Sabot is typical in that regard however. Saying "my way or the highway" on each of three points definitely makes him an outlier in my opinion. Most of us recognize that there are a variety of opinions on many issues and will not insist that it be done their way on every issue they consider important. A more typical opinion would be that if the game winds up distinctly superior to current MMOs we will support it, even if it goes the way we don't want on any particular issue.
Note I am not saying he is wrong - each of us has to decide what makes a game worth our time and money, and atypical is far from synonymous with wrong.
Note also I agree with him at least in large part on all three points. Death needs to sting. Travel should not be excessively easy (though I do not agree that trivializing travel is good if other players can do it but bad if it is a more automatic process). Setting your character to craft or adventure while offline should be ...what is a strong enough word .... anathma.
Sabot said:Well you are welcome to your opinion but I think you are wrong on your assumption that the "Pantheon faithful" will just go along with whatever is done in the game. I personaly have three points that I won't compromise on. If the game doesnt have a harsh enough death penalty, if it has easy instant travel that doesnt require player interaction, and if you can progress skills or crafting while offline I am out. I think everyone has something that will cause them to walk away from the game. If you don't then you don't really matter do you? You are a given and can be safely ignored.
You can be positive and give good feedback, thats fine. But it is also good to give negative feedback. The guys in charge can consider or ignore it. It's there show, but to just be here to be positive and uplifting really doesn't do the developers or the players a real service.
The topic of travel is especially good to discuss in a forum like this because it is something that really can be changed in almost no time. they can go from only player porting to transportation stones so fast. On something that is that easy to change the pros and cons for both sides need to be communicated and new ideas should be conjured up. Once you go to easy travel you really can't take it back. At least I have never seen a game take that away from the players. It needs to be considered carefully before it's thrown in the game. I think they are taking it seriouusly.
I think the discussion is great.
My sincere apologies for using the word "we" when I was speaking only for myself. All discussions are useful, and I never meant to imply they were not, nor that people should cease discussing anything. I have edited that post to clarify the mistake and my proper intent.
I meant that I am done questioning the upcoming mechanics because over 20 years of online MUD/MMO gaming, there's not much any developer, including the fine folks at VR, could do that would be something I am unfamiliar with.
I have preferences for how I would like travel mechanics to go, but it has been brought to my attention that no matter how diplomatically I may present my opinions, there are those who feel offended by any opinion different from theirs, and the very last thing I would ever want to do is offend someone, even unintentionally.
Venjenz said:Sabot said:Well you are welcome to your opinion but I think you are wrong on your assumption that the "Pantheon faithful" will just go along with whatever is done in the game. I personaly have three points that I won't compromise on. If the game doesnt have a harsh enough death penalty, if it has easy instant travel that doesnt require player interaction, and if you can progress skills or crafting while offline I am out. I think everyone has something that will cause them to walk away from the game. If you don't then you don't really matter do you? You are a given and can be safely ignored.
You can be positive and give good feedback, thats fine. But it is also good to give negative feedback. The guys in charge can consider or ignore it. It's there show, but to just be here to be positive and uplifting really doesn't do the developers or the players a real service.
The topic of travel is especially good to discuss in a forum like this because it is something that really can be changed in almost no time. they can go from only player porting to transportation stones so fast. On something that is that easy to change the pros and cons for both sides need to be communicated and new ideas should be conjured up. Once you go to easy travel you really can't take it back. At least I have never seen a game take that away from the players. It needs to be considered carefully before it's thrown in the game. I think they are taking it seriouusly.
I think the discussion is great.
My sincere apologies for using the word "we" when I was speaking only for myself. All discussions are useful, and I never meant to imply they were not, nor that people should cease discussing anything. I have edited that post to clarify the mistake and my proper intent.
I meant that I am done questioning the upcoming mechanics because over 20 years of online MUD/MMO gaming, there's not much any developer, including the fine folks at VR, could do that would be something I am unfamiliar with.
I have preferences for how I would like travel mechanics to go, but it has been brought to my attention that no matter how diplomatically I may present my opinions, there are those who feel offended by any opinion different from theirs, and the very last thing I would ever want to do is offend someone, even unintentionally.
I would not be worried about offending anyone. Anyone that is offended by an opinion you have on anything probably is not someone worth caring about. Now telling someone else that their opinon is wrong or invalid, thats not to good.
If your opinion is no matter what is done you are on board that is just as valid as any of my own.
I agree that there is a good chance that most of what is done in this game will not strike me as being unfamiliar no matter what direction they take it in. That doesn't make it ok though. Fast travel is not unfamiliar to me. That doesn't mean I want to play a game that has it. The whole point of this game to me is to have something that is familiar (like EQ) but familiar in ways that I like. Not necissarily in ways that many other gamers like. There are dozens of existing games and ones on the way for those kinds of people that like them. There is nothing for me and people that think like I do. I just want this one game, they can have all the others.
Most of the things in the game can be changed and modified and I think I could get onboard with it. I just have these three things that I won't budge on. Maybe you don't, maybe you are up for anything. Thats cool. I am not. I would rather continue to not play anything in the mmo world than to play what already exists or somthing "new" that is really just a rehash of things that caused me to quit playing in the first place.
That being said it doesn't mean I need long distance travel to be exactly as it was in the old days. I like alot of the ideas that were presented here to include the original one. I guess I know what I don't want but am open to something new as long as it is not the insta click fast travel that some want. And if that offends someone then they are going to have to find a way to deal with being offended. But 90% of the people here either agree with me, or respect my point of view even if they dont agree with me at all. Very few are going to be hostile or get offended.
Sabot said:The topic of travel is especially good to discuss in a forum like this because it is something that really can be changed in almost no time. they can go from only player porting to transportation stones so fast. On something that is that easy to change the pros and cons for both sides need to be communicated and new ideas should be conjured up. Once you go to easy travel you really can't take it back. At least I have never seen a game take that away from the players. It needs to be considered carefully before it's thrown in the game. I think they are taking it seriouusly.
I think the discussion is great.
I think this is especially important to consider.
Some of us want the hard travel that's frustrating, dangerous, and dare I say even tedious. We want to have to spend an inordinate amount of time hoofing it from place to place, and we all have (valid to us) reasons for that. Some of us want to take the tedium away, believing that they shouldn't have to sacrifice playtime for nostalgia and the off chance adventure would happen amidst all that travelling.
Both reasons are valid, but only one direction can feasibly be reversed. MMO nerds are a volatile and loud bunch. Go from hard travel to easier travel, and people will complain and throw a fit, sure. But go from easy to hard, and there will be blood.
Add fast travel and teleports? Doable.
Take away fast travel and teleports? People will leave in droves.
To quote King Shrewd Farsee from the Farseer Trilogy - "Don't do what you can't undo, until you've considered what you can't do once you've done it."
Porygon said:Sabot said:and if you can progress skills or crafting while offline I am out
I've never seen this before. Is there a game where this is possible? Or could you elaborate on what you mean?
I know Eve online lets you skill up while offline. Their skills have timers on them some take days or weeks, maybe longer to complete. Have seen it in one of the newer games to come out too. Cant remember what one. Eve may even allow crafting offline. I have seen it somewhere. I would have to dig to get specifics, I am terrible with names most of the time. It does exist though. Maybe someone else knows off the top of their head.
Edit: I remember SWTOR allowed you to have your companions craft for you and you could load up their queues and log out. Come back the next day and its all done.
Sabot said:Porygon said:Sabot said:and if you can progress skills or crafting while offline I am out
I've never seen this before. Is there a game where this is possible? Or could you elaborate on what you mean?
I know Eve online lets you skill up while offline. Their skills have timers on them some take days or weeks, maybe longer to complete. Have seen it in one of the newer games to come out too. Cant remember what one. Eve may even allow crafting offline. I have seen it somewhere. I would have to dig to get specifics, I am terrible with names most of the time. It does exist though. Maybe someone else knows off the top of their head.
Edit: I remember SWTOR allowed you to have your companions craft for you and you could load up their queues and log out. Come back the next day and its all done.
If I recall, you are correct about an NPC (Companion) doing work for you while offline. Kind of a distasteful mechanic if you ask me.
Regarding Eve, state the rest of the story. It takes what.... 28.17 RL years to max (according to one redditt post) all of Eve's Skills. I believe work orders could also be completed while offline, but those also ran into huge amounts of time. It is just a different system in a different game; a game purposefully designed, as you stated, to take hours, days, weeks or even longer to accomplish the skilling up of 1 skill to the next level.
Sabot said:Edit: I remember SWTOR allowed you to have your companions craft for you and you could load up their queues and log out. Come back the next day and its all done.
Yeah, that was kind of an unwritten rule of SWTOR - always have your companions out on missions doing their thing. Especially big tradeskill stuff where each combine took a long time, Best done at log out time and you come back in and it's all done. Can't speak for anyone else, but I actually liked the SWTOR gathering/tradeskill system. Besides pre-revamp EQ2, it is one of my favorites. IMHO, of course.
Dashed said:Regarding Eve, state the rest of the story. It takes what.... 28.17 RL years to max (according to one redditt post) all of Eve's Skills. I believe work orders could also be completed while offline, but those also ran into huge amounts of time. It is just a different system in a different game; a game purposefully designed, as you stated, to take hours, days, weeks or even longer to accomplish the skilling up of 1 skill to the next level.
Maxing every skill in EVE would take forever, no doubt, but getting your skills to where they are perfectly useful for any corp takes less than 2 weeks. Most of the big corps will give new players everything they need to be tacklers, and even escort them from n00b land to whatever space they control. Can never have enough frigates tackling and harassing.
That said, I liken maxing every skill in EVE to maxing every class in EQ1 and having all their BiS gear and max AAs...in old style, pre-merc EQ1...with no macro-quest hijinks. That too would take a considerable amount of time, but it is unnecessary to be a useful, contributing member to even top end raiding. Nice for min-max, but definitely not required.
In my humble opinion anyway.
Porygon said:Sabot said:and if you can progress skills or crafting while offline I am out
I've never seen this before. Is there a game where this is possible? Or could you elaborate on what you mean?
Uhh... Black Desert ?
You can literally activate "AFK mode" when fishing to increase fishing skill while not playing the game.
Or create a "loop" which your character follows around and around ad infinitum which lets you train your horses.
And obviously EVE Online with the offline training system which makes people buy accounts, train them up without playing the accounts at all and selling the accounts later.
AFK skill training is a result of poor game design in my book. If something is so boring or taking so long to train up that people find ways to do it while AFK then something is inherently flawed with the game design. If they intend for something to take a long time to gain skill in it then it should also be designed so it is impossible to skill up while AFK but the player would need to put in the effort to increase the skill.
AFK/Offline progression is just terrible.
I am sorry that my comment got this thread derailed. I only mentioned the offline training and death lenalty in addition to fast travel to show that there were just some things i would not go along with, like the original topic of the thread different ways of fast travel. I didn't want to come off as one of those guys that always threatens to leave if they dont get there way about everything. I have a few things that would turn me off the game but its only a few things. Did not mean to get into a discussion on other games and their mechanics that are not related to travel.