Ghroznak said:I want teleports to be risky.
I don't want wizard spires and druid circles as "landing sites" for teleports.
Instead I want teleports to be somewhat random and skill based.
Example... instead of teleporting to "this particular and explicit location within a zone" you instead teleport to the zone in general, and only specific zones (maybe 1 per continent) can be teleported to.
This means... those being teleported will land in random locations, scattered throughout the zone. The higher the skill of the druid or wizard or whatever class is teleporting the higher the probability that the group all lands in the same location. Keyword: Probability. There's always the chance of a failure or mishap which then causes players to be spread out regardless of skill or level.
I want this.
I agree with Ghroznak that EverQuest boats were great. I'm hoping we'll have similar boats in PRF. It's one of those things (like having to wait for a group) that facilitates socialization, though not everyone appreciates it. I wouldn't hate Ghroznak's other idea about random teleport scattering, but I'd either leave it to the lowest level teleport spells, or let it just have a tiny chance of happening.
Even though it seems counter intuitive waiting for a boat or caravan actually increases social interaction over getting a port and dropping group asap. You have a chance to type while sitting there. I probably had more conversations while waiting on a boat than getting a port somewhere.
What was great with boats was that oceans and seas were actually something you physically crossed, increasing the size of the world by a good margin. Boats are in this case, required if not mandatory, as having oceans with no reason to cross them would be a waste of ressource.
Even with teleportation boats will always be used. Think OOT in Everquest or TT. Both had items of use, areas of interest, or quest.
I don’t think teleportation negates from having boats, just make it high level and require something(Such as a small Crystal that can only be found there and be used 1-3 times) it won’t be used as much and still require traveling for a majority of people.
I think what I would like to see is a relatively expensive reagent tied to porting, similar to the old Plane of Hate and Sky reagents (though obviously not all -that- expensive.) So if you were late to a raid you would certainly get a port, but if you only had to cross a zone or two in no particular hurry you would quite quickly say "That doesn't seem worth it."
If you value your time so much you could entirely get ports all the time, but you would have to give it some thought, and someone who legs it is going to be saving a tremendous amount of currency in comparison.
I think I'd also like to see various transportation abilities be more spread out - a wizard for a big wizard spire and a druid for a druid ring, absolutely, but it's the cleric who could send you to a temple or the ranger who could take you to a hidden glade. Just... more flavor than a bunch of similar spires/rings/portals dotting the world.
This kind of thinking still operates on the assumption that normal travel will quickly get monotonous, boring, and a chore - to an extent that is unavoidable, but there are measures that can be taken to alleviate that. Various perception queues can not only be put in variable locations but even newly created from week to week, traveling vendors with unusual goods might be on X boat or Y dock, resource nodes of variable value and location might be hard to predict - just things to make travel worthwhile even if you're just passing through.
Ghroznak said:I want teleports to be risky.
I don't want wizard spires and druid circles as "landing sites" for teleports.
Instead I want teleports to be somewhat random and skill based.
Example... instead of teleporting to "this particular and explicit location within a zone" you instead teleport to the zone in general, and only specific zones (maybe 1 per continent) can be teleported to.
This means... those being teleported will land in random locations, scattered throughout the zone. The higher the skill of the druid or wizard or whatever class is teleporting the higher the probability that the group all lands in the same location. Keyword: Probability. There's always the chance of a failure or mishap which then causes players to be spread out regardless of skill or level.
This would make teleports less desirable than doing a safe boat ride or going to a place on foot.
Teleports should also be expensive and not just some Uber/Lyft ride between areas as seen in Everquest. By expensive this could be both in pure cost (buy a high cost item which is consumed), expensive in terms of time to cast it (e.g. a lot of preparation stuff to do to cast it like creating a circle and casting other spells to prepare it) or the whole teleportation could follow a type of "crafting" where you require numerous components where some are expensive and others are just plain rare, e.g. rare drop from mining or creatures).
To sum it up teleports should be:
- Expensive (as mentioned in both cost, time and perhaps even rare items)
- Limited in where you can actually teleport to (only one place/zone in a whole continent)
- Include a skill based / failure component where it's random where the players actually end up (under water, top of a hill, inside a random house, right next to a sleeping dragon and so on).
These things would make teleporting something you only use sparingly and only when you really, really need it rather than willy-nilly Lyft-rides back and forth between places.
I just wanted to say that this is an awesome idea.
I am ok with ports up to a point. Like in EQ1 when they had Luclin spires. Everything up to that point was perfect. Velious had out of the way portals that you had to grab a marker from. Luclin you had to wait for a timer. When POP came out they ruined everything. I like the idea of forcing a druid or wizard to attune themselfs with a specific area. It would give variety. I would also be ok with portals to every city zone but require a perception trigger after walking/traveling there before it opens up for you. You should be required to make the trip on foot at least once or go through a large hurdle like the top of Tower of Reckless Magician and kill the boss to unlock a convenient portal. I still remember going to CS in eq1 to grab my tooth. Skyshrine was/is rediculous.
As the world grows with expansions travel to and from takes an ever-increasing amount of time. Once you've traveled a route 20+ times it gets fairly tedious if that route takes 30 minutes or more. I'm all for having to travel the world on foot at least once to "attune" yourself to various travel points but without some kind of fast travel option available at some point it become easier to just not go join that remote group or to not play at all. If you have to spend 20% of your evening simply traveling to and from a place to group up and go hunting that has a way of sucking a lot of the fun out of playing.
I'm not saying we ought to be able to port everywhere at any time for minimal hassle thus bypassing the world entirely but there must be some kind of travel assist. EQ1 had it about right imo. Even a druid port would only take you within a zone or two (or three) of your destination. Timed spires were limited and not free (though the cost was super low). PoK's planar ports weren't even that bad as it still required a potentially long and dangerous run to wherever you were going. Boats were often more risk than they were worth with the potential to randomly drop you in the ocean to die. All of these options would allow you to get from any A to any B in 15 minutes or less (typically).
If the game forces everyone to always run everywhere on foot I expect we'll see a lot more loitering in towns, a lot more people quitting the game and a lot less exploration and hunting.
HERE IS THE FACTS: The problem, when you have explored all there is to see, travel becomes tedium. So when you get a TP and hoofing it the rest of the way, in the end, you should be no more then 10-15 min from anywhere in the game. Any longer then that and this is no longer fun. Now I am rolling a new char that’s just for travel. Wait why do I want to level up a new char for that when I can go play a new game. Maybe I will take a break from Pantheon. I call it my bucket of pain. Some pains are bigger then others. We all have a bucket we collect what pains us about a game. When it flows over, we tend to leave for something new even if it has new pains that will fill it up. Travel time is something you need to strike that line between getting people running around the game and not something they add to their pain bucket.
What I'm seeing from many posters here is that travel time is considered to be, essentially, time that you're not playing. Time that's being taken out of your playtime. Something you do before you can get to your playtime. I think this is probably the #1 mentality to tackle. That is partly on the devs, sure, but also on the player.
Secondly, this problem comes down to one of Pantheon's design tenets - the one about unapologetically being able to say that your game isn't designed for everyone. I personally really hope that ports are never ubiquitous - no amount of travel is worse than that feeling that the "world" you're in is not a world at all, but just some zones you traverse in moments on a loading screen. Meaningful travel for me, for sure.
And here... we... go...
Practically every single modern-day MMORPG has done away with meaningful travel through flying mounts, fast-travel, and tools like dungeon finder, that automatically groups people up and then teleports the group to a dungeon. If that's the type of thing you enjoy, then why don't you go play The Elder Scrolls Online or World of Warcraft? Personally, I don't like these types of things, which is why I've decided to not play these types of MMORPGs. You won't see me at The Elder Scrolls Online or World of Warcraft forum asking the developers to remove fast-travel or dungeon finder because they cause me psychological pain; I know that it's their intention to cater to the lowest common denominator (the most amount of people).
And because there are so many MMORPGs in the last 10-15 years who have gone down the same route with regard to travel (and other things), there's this untapped market in the MMORPG industry. I'm part of that untapped market.
So, why would VR decide to do more of the same, competing with games like WoW? Why wouldn't they cater to this untapped market?
Raine said:What I'm seeing from many posters here is that travel time is considered to be, essentially, time that you're not playing. Time that's being taken out of your playtime. Something you do before you can get to your playtime. I think this is probably the #1 mentality to tackle. That is partly on the devs, sure, but also on the player.
Secondly, this problem comes down to one of Pantheon's design tenets - the one about unapologetically being able to say that your game isn't designed for everyone. I personally really hope that ports are never ubiquitous - no amount of travel is worse than that feeling that the "world" you're in is not a world at all, but just some zones you traverse in moments on a loading screen. Meaningful travel for me, for sure.
Here is a night my wife and I had in P1999, we had not played in a while because life has gotten crazy so free night, lets go play. Guildes are doing a dungeon run, so my Bard and my wife's wizard take almost 30 min to get to this dungeon (boat trip involved) We get there, and the guild is doing corpse recovery and 1/2 bail they are done dying. So my wife and I try and start a team and or join one. 45 min later no team. Now about 1.5 hours in game play no fun yet. We hoof it to another dungeon, another 30 travel time with a boat ride. We get to the dungeon to find its over packed, so we yell for 30 min to see if something frees up. So we run 15 min to another dungeon. Its dead and only 2 small teams. Bard and Wizard are not cutting a way to a camp spot so we try and make a team, nothing. I tell my wife to wait there and run off to an area people are exping our level and ask if anyone wants to join (10 min run there 10 back). 30 min later we have a team and I run them to the dungeon. Tank say guild called him so I start over looking for a tank. 30 min later no tank people disband. I run back to get my wife and we run to a camp 30 min later we have gotten there and found a team. We play for 30 min and leave as its time to goto bed.
I want allot of what made EQ1 old school fun but I dont want to play what i described above. Travel time and LFG need to be addressed with skill. How much longer would that have been if I was not a Bard?
Something to keep in mind is that mounts are already a confirmed feature - they sure weren't in EQ's glory days. This alone means you can count on a SoW if not a Selo's for your travels. I believe Caravans are confirmed as well in the form of a feature that keeps you with your group - if you log out and your group changes location, you will log in in the new location. (I think this idea won't actually see all that much use, since most of us will not have a steady group for our original mains. That's more something you do in a hardcore guild or with a casual alt group.)
Dunlen, I actually -really- like the idea of scripted caravans that more or less function as overland boats. You join the caravan in a wagon or on a horse or whatever, it travels much like a boat, and you're free to interact with other passengers or just watch it go through the lands. That sounds awesome as something in-between manual travel and a port.
Nanfoodle, I think most of us here had more of those days than we care to count. I played a ranger and groups were absolutely never a sure thing. Thing to remember is that not all of us consider that a drawback of the game, and do not want to see it "fixed" as we don't consider it broken. It is a bunch of bad luck, sure, but that was part of the charm of the game. Now, there were certainly problems with EQ; I remember being turned down all day because my xp penalty would literally slow down the group and that was messed up, but that had nothing to do with travel.
Nanfoodle said:Here is a night my wife and I had in P1999, we had not played in a while because life has gotten crazy so free night, lets go play. Guildes are doing a dungeon run, so my Bard and my wife's wizard take almost 30 min to get to this dungeon (boat trip involved) We get there, and the guild is doing corpse recovery and 1/2 bail they are done dying. So my wife and I try and start a team and or join one. 45 min later no team. No about 1.5 hours game play no fun yet. We hoof it to another dungeon, another 30 travel time with a boat ride. We get to the dungeon to find its over packed, so we yell for 30 min to see if something frees up. So we run 15 min to another dungeon. Its dead and only 2 small teams. Bard and Wizard are not cutting a way to a camp spot so we try and make a team, nothing. I tell my wife to wait there and run off to an area people are exping our level and ask if anyone wants to join (10 min run there 10 back). 30 min later we have a team and I run them to the dungeon. Tank say guild called him so I start over looking for a tank. 30 min later no tank people disband. I run back to get my wife and we run to a camp 30 min later we have gotten there and found a team. We play for 30 min and leave as its time to goto bed.
I want allot of what made EQ1 old school fun but I dont want to play what i described above. Travel time and LFG need to be addressed with skill. How much longer would that have been if I was not a Bard?
Why are you playing EverQuest then? Not only are you playing EverQuest, but you're playing a version of EverQuest that is more hardcore than the current version of it.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you and your wife to be playing The Elder Scrolls Online, World of Wacraft, or Guild Wars?
manofyesterday said:Nanfoodle said:Here is a night my wife and I had in P1999, we had not played in a while because life has gotten crazy so free night, lets go play. Guildes are doing a dungeon run, so my Bard and my wife's wizard take almost 30 min to get to this dungeon (boat trip involved) We get there, and the guild is doing corpse recovery and 1/2 bail they are done dying. So my wife and I try and start a team and or join one. 45 min later no team. No about 1.5 hours game play no fun yet. We hoof it to another dungeon, another 30 travel time with a boat ride. We get to the dungeon to find its over packed, so we yell for 30 min to see if something frees up. So we run 15 min to another dungeon. Its dead and only 2 small teams. Bard and Wizard are not cutting a way to a camp spot so we try and make a team, nothing. I tell my wife to wait there and run off to an area people are exping our level and ask if anyone wants to join (10 min run there 10 back). 30 min later we have a team and I run them to the dungeon. Tank say guild called him so I start over looking for a tank. 30 min later no tank people disband. I run back to get my wife and we run to a camp 30 min later we have gotten there and found a team. We play for 30 min and leave as its time to goto bed.
I want allot of what made EQ1 old school fun but I dont want to play what i described above. Travel time and LFG need to be addressed with skill. How much longer would that have been if I was not a Bard?
Why are you playing EverQuest then? Not only are you playing EverQuest, but you're playing a version of EverQuest that is more hardcore than the current version of it.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you and your wife to be playing The Elder Scrolls Online, World of Wacraft, or Guild Wars?
Because I dont like the direction of any of them. Played Wow for 6 year and done. They messed it up. ESO I wont play for personal reasons and we did play GW2 for 2 years, updates were very bad. I hated what they did to the skills and classes. I want a modern EQ1. I play 1999 because when it happens I am having the most fun. VR has already stated this is not an old school game. They will have very modern systems. IMO this is 2 areas that need a close look at to keep exploration but not push us into tedium. Finding teams need a balance as well as these two elements kill a night of gaming like nothing else. I trust VR has plans to not follow the model of EQ1 in this. They are smarter then that.
I believe his concerns are indeed valid, don’t take it for face value.
I think the alrernatives posted by (I believe) kreed and venjenz are pretty much what I would hope to see.
Limited porting, and to get the port you need to do something to be able to use the spell. Or even have a component for the spell.
But please do not add city to city porting or fast traveling caravans.
eldrun said:I believe his concerns are indeed valid, don’t take it for face value.
I think the alrernatives posted by (I believe) kreed and venjenz are pretty much what I would hope to see.
Limited porting, and to get the port you need to do something to be able to use the spell. Or even have a component for the spell.
But please do not add city to city porting or fast traveling caravans.
The balance between travel being a pain and its fun Im exploring is a fine line. I really hope they find the balance.
Nanfoodle said:VR has already stated this is not an old school game. They will have very modern systems. IMO this is 2 areas that need a close look at to keep exploration but not push us into tedium.
According to VR’s FAQ, “Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is a new, modern, high fantasy MMO currently in development incorporating both new and classical game mechanics.”
The question is what will be “modern” and what will be “classical.” Personally, I’m hoping they go the classical route with respect to travel.
manofyesterday said:Nanfoodle said:VR has already stated this is not an old school game. They will have very modern systems. IMO this is 2 areas that need a close look at to keep exploration but not push us into tedium.
According to VR’s FAQ, “Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is a new, modern, high fantasy MMO currently in development incorporating both new and classical game mechanics.”
The question is what will be “modern” and what will be “classical.” Personally, I’m hoping they go the classical route with respect to travel.
I hope for a blend of old and new much like the caravan system.
Nanfoodle said:HERE IS THE FACTS: The problem, when you have explored all there is to see, travel becomes tedium. So when you get a TP and hoofing it the rest of the way, in the end, you should be no more then 10-15 min from anywhere in the game. Any longer then that and this is no longer fun. Now I am rolling a new char that’s just for travel. Wait why do I want to level up a new char for that when I can go play a new game. Maybe I will take a break from Pantheon. I call it my bucket of pain. Some pains are bigger then others. We all have a bucket we collect what pains us about a game. When it flows over, we tend to leave for something new even if it has new pains that will fill it up. Travel time is something you need to strike that line between getting people running around the game and not something they add to their pain bucket.
Nanfoodle, after reading this and your story about playing with your wife, I want to try really hard to not marginalize your feelings on the issue. Really, I do. I also sympathize with your plight.
But I gotta say, there really isn't a whole lot of fact going on here.
I recall a while back, there was a discussion about the nature of Pantheon versus other contemporary games. A key point in the creation of Pantheon was that it would be catered to a specific niche of people, and that VR would not fold under the pressure of a client base that went against the grain of their original vision. They wanted to stay true to that niche of gamers, believing that there was an untapped market out there just waiting for some very specific features that have been lost over the years as MMO's have developed.
So, as much as I DO indeed sympathize with your plight, I wholeheartedly hope that VR does not cater to it - and I mean that with no malice whatsoever. The story you told about spending the entire night looking for a group with no success? That's exactly what I want back. It doesn't seem an extreme case of tedium to me. To me, it just seems right. It seems the way things should be, and I don't think I'm alone.
You're right there's a fine line there, but if it comes down to a choice between tipping too far over on side A (easy travel that trivializes content for the sake of making groups easier to establish) versus side B (having a hard time locating a group and spending entire evenings in travel) - I hope they tip over to side B.
Tralyan said:Nanfoodle said:HERE IS THE FACTS: The problem, when you have explored all there is to see, travel becomes tedium. So when you get a TP and hoofing it the rest of the way, in the end, you should be no more then 10-15 min from anywhere in the game. Any longer then that and this is no longer fun. Now I am rolling a new char that’s just for travel. Wait why do I want to level up a new char for that when I can go play a new game. Maybe I will take a break from Pantheon. I call it my bucket of pain. Some pains are bigger then others. We all have a bucket we collect what pains us about a game. When it flows over, we tend to leave for something new even if it has new pains that will fill it up. Travel time is something you need to strike that line between getting people running around the game and not something they add to their pain bucket.
Nanfoodle, after reading this and your story about playing with your wife, I want to try really hard to not marginalize your feelings on the issue. Really, I do. I also sympathize with your plight.
But I gotta say, there really isn't a whole lot of fact going on here.
I recall a while back, there was a discussion about the nature of Pantheon versus other contemporary games. A key point in the creation of Pantheon was that it would be catered to a specific niche of people, and that VR would not fold under the pressure of a client base that went against the grain of their original vision. They wanted to stay true to that niche of gamers, believing that there was an untapped market out there just waiting for some very specific features that have been lost over the years as MMO's have developed.
So, as much as I DO indeed sympathize with your plight, I wholeheartedly hope that VR does not cater to it - and I mean that with no malice whatsoever. The story you told about spending the entire night looking for a group with no success? That's exactly what I want back. It doesn't seem an extreme case of tedium to me. To me, it just seems right. It seems the way things should be, and I don't think I'm alone.
You're right there's a fine line there, but if it comes down to a choice between tipping too far over on side A (easy travel that trivializes content for the sake of making groups easier to establish) versus side B (having a hard time locating a group and spending entire evenings in travel) - I hope they tip over to side B.
I think there are some easy ways to fix this and keep travel times to a good balance. I like the OPs ideas making sure no one class can get you anywhere. I also think the bind sustem should stay within cities only. Later when casters could bind anywhere made it so less people played melee. Small thing like area chat channels you can join would be awesome. So you can join 3 chat channels for 3 different dungeons within 10-15 min and talk LFG over running to each location to yell in /general. Doing so would keep general chat free of people spaming LFG in the same channel people are yelling train to zone. Caravan is also a good start. Thses channels could also be locked by distance, you can only join the Guk LFG channel if you are only X close to the dungeon. This will let people exp outside, help friends while LFG without addding a LFG Q you just join. I am sure VR could come up with even better ideas then this. Trvaeling just to get to an over packed dungeon sucks.