Tralyan said:it would be excellent if some day players in MMO's could even be part of the ... selling process that's handled now by the NPC's
Ok, we might have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't want to have to negotiate with a player over copper pieces for rat tails and bottles of water.
I do like immersion and some of the day-to-day activity is good for that, but I play RPGs to be in a heroic tale. It may have humble beginnings and gritty moments, but not many heroic tales detail what the hero had for breakfast. Every day. Especially when it's the same every day.
disposalist said:"silly reductio ad absurdum"? Hehe. Dude. You said "ANYTHING [in caps!] that can be done by the players instead of NPC's, should be". I figured I was safe with a little extremity in the response ;^)
Ha. Ok. That's fair.
disposalist said:Not all old-school mechanics were perfect. Not all modern MMO mechanics are evil. If we can't discuss what's in-between and accept that there's some opinion in there as to what is good/bad not just 'fact' *then* we will have to agree to disagree.
See, I think this is where we really differ fundamentally. I find EQ's system to be the "in-between" and the sweet spot between all fast travel all the time, and none.
disposalist said:I simply don't see why 2 classes of 12 should get the monopoly on something so fundamental and powerful and I don't see paying other players to click a button and them sometimes not being around as a good way to make normal travel a viable alternative.
Same with this. I'm perfectly OK with 2 classes monopolizing teleports simply because, if I wanted to, I have the option to play one as an alt and reap the same benefits. Though I do submit that Druids had a bit too much in the way of utility monetization with both buffs (SoW). heals, and teleporting. But I'm so extremely and (possibly even excessively) stringently against any homogenization of classes that I would gladly accept having absolutely no ability to monetize my abilities as a Paladin while watching Druids and Wizards rake in the dough.
Look me up on P99 sometime. Vaynard, 42 Paladin. We'll take the boat.
MauvaisOeil said:Porygon said:Again. All you're doing is taking things to the extreme. Noone is asking for instant teleportation. Noone is asking to be able to fly across the world the second you create a character.
By making exploration and level cap requirements for "flight paths" you still get the benefit of naturally leveling up and traveling while not being able to cheese it by running to all "flightpaths" on a level one.
You can also limit the "flightpaths" to only certain areas or zones. There is still travel to be had on foot. A flight path only drops you off at 1 location. It can still easily take you 10 mins to run to a dungeon after riding a donkey for 8 minutes.
And let's not kid ourselves. Nobody ran thru the karanas looking at everything in sight and being in awe (at least not after doing it for the 5th time) we all pointed ourselves and autoran. And in some cases if the level gap was large enough could literally walk afk with hardly any fear of dying. That's not creating something meaningful. Its creating a tedious chore that nearly noone wants to do.
The main problem is, is simply human nature. While a task is interesting and engaging at first, with repetition comes boredom and a lack of interest. However, is the task itself the cause ? Not at all. Levelling is something enjoyable, once, twice, even thrice. What about after ? I level 8 characters in FFXIV up to level max, doing the same and same things I enjoyed once at first, and then I just ran them like a robot in a very short timeframe. Should levelling alt be made easier once you have a main levelled because you've already made it once ? Should low level mobs farming be trivialized because it's boring to run from mob to mob and one shot them for crafting ingredients ?
Even if travelling was tedious in EQ, I enjoyed it, not because it was engaging once levelled, but because it made sense in my travelling routine . During luclin I travelled to the twillight sea every other evening just to see the sky there, even if it took me (as a rogue with no mount and only jboots) a few hour going to and from.
Of course travelling loose some sense when you can easily cross low level zones, that's why you were faster and you had to go to the edges of the known world for your adventures. And that's why a shinning paladin with a fiery avenger on a mount, crossing the karanas/commonlands, was an epic sight even if he didn't stop. And maybe if you were in danger, the guy would drop off and land a stun on your mob with a heal on you and saved you day.
Faster travels, less players crossing paths, seems like an unlikely cheap move to me. (I'm not against static portals for some classes and destination, I just want them limited because of where they are, and what they require as classes/cooldowns/components/etc)
Dude. You're literally just proving my point that if you WANT to slow travel. You can. You just said yourself that you traveled an hour every couple days to look at the sky. Having forms of fast travel in the game does not hinder you from doing that.
The argument that if theres fast travel then people will expect you to use it is bad. Because like was mentioned before. If theres mo fast travel. I'm not going to send you a group invite if you're an hour away. You end up with the same scenarios.
It does however hinder me from spending as much time actually playing the game (not running around) as I can.
Yeah I do not want to see any form of fast travel, I think in the long run it ruins elements that VR is tring to do, however having some means of getting about is acceptable. I do not want to see druid circle/rings, wizard spires beside cities or dungeons, but rather out in the world. Traveling to and from these locations can/could be dangerous. Their ports can help reduce some traveling time, but not all of it, and again it totally optional.
I also think they shouldn't get these abilities from trainers. They have to do some quest or find some npc that will teach them. So even thou a wizard has unlocked the ability to teleport to this landmass, he/she will still have to take the time on a ship to go across the sea to the other landmasses and find/do said npc/quest to unlock that one.
Also, even thou they both get a means to port around and stuff, you also have to take into consideration that it will take time before they are able to do this. IE level, quest, npc, find the spell, etc.
It was fairly rare to run into other players while traveling in EQ (going from point A to point B) aside from boat rides or when passing though East/West Commonlands and cities. Most groups/camps weren't usually along the travel paths save for a few zones. Now make the zones much larger like Pantheon will have.
People porting don't just disappear from the world and arrive wherever they want to be. You'll still see people traveling about and running for 15-30 minutes to get to a remote dungeon/area etc.
I still don't see what is wrong with a couple classes having ports they can dish out for donations. Should everyone have access to resurrections too? It's not that far of a leap and I know I certainly hurt more paying 100+ plat for an xp rez in EQ. What about summon player? Why can one class allow people to skip content like that? Stealth & Summon Corpse? No fair I might "have" to donate to those people to help get my corpse back. Movespeed buffs? No fair they have free access to that and can sell buffs to others, I "have" to ask/donate to them or get left in the dust with longer travel time. Levitate? No fair they can get places others can't or get there far easier & run across bodies of water!
...and so on until the envy drags everything into the toilet.
I think a lot of people are making some assumptions regarding whether or not Pantheon areas will be like Everquest.
One example, being "stuck" in Karnors Castle during low activity hours and without teleports your option would be to just sit LFG for hour or quit. Are we so sure level-appropriate zones will be as isolated and far apart in Pantheon as they were in Everquest? If you only need to run for 10-15 minutes to get to another area with more activity and get a group there then is fast-travel and teleports really needed?
Furthermore is Pantheon ONLY going to be about grinding levels? Only about power-gaming? Is leveling going to be the only focus of the game?
Do we really only want fast-travel explicitly because we want to get to a power-gaming group as fast as possible to grind out as much experience as possible for the time we have to play?
Is fast-travel only desired because one day there might be few people LFG in the specific dungeon you are in so you need a less-than-10-minute way of getting to another group on another continent in a completely different dungeon just so you can maximize the experience grind?
I know this will be a digression, but I was hoping Pantheon wouldn't be just like every other MMO out there where the only focus of the game is to grind experience and there is no other way to play the game. Just exp, exp, exp.
I like the idea that Everquest had back in it's original game. "You are in our world now". It was a world where you explored your surroundings and the places around you. Where you met other players and like complete lunatics (I guess) we talked to other people, learned about quests, learned where to go to do those quests or what places we could go to get more cash, items, loot and yes also experience. Or simply join those players and go out together. It was a game where you could spend just as much time chatting, having fun, roleplaying, discussing, exploring and doing all sorts of "not grinding experience" things together. You had your character, you were invested in your character (because it took a long time to level up and a long time to get gear so you got attached to your character) and you played out your character in the world.
Now some might say "that's all stupid roleplaying stuff" or "if you want to just chat then use skype". Well, for me I'd rather say "if you don't want do non-xp-grind stuff then play one of the dozens of others MMO's out there which are specifically aimed at nothing but grind exp" or "if you don't like to socialize in an MMO then play a singleplayer game like Fallout 4 or Skyrim instead".
Anyways, back on topic.
Here's a question I'd like to raise: Is fast travel really only a necessity for maximizing the experience grind potential of every play session?
People suggest griffon-rides like WoW, or horse-transports like Everquest 2. Do we really need these types of NPC traveling methods if we will have access to run-speed buffs anyways, and in the later levels getting mounts and such as well?
Again, most of this is all wild speculation because most of our experience is from other games, typically Everquest, and we don't know how far apart the different zones are going to be in Pantheon.
How about we try to quantify what constitutes "too much time spent on traveling": example, lets say every single dungeon in Pantheon can be reached in less than 15 minutes from the center of a continent. Do we then really need fast travel anywhere other than between continents? Is 15 minutes too long for people to run? What if it's 20 minutes at the most to reach anywhere on a continent from the central location?
What is the maximum "time spent traveling" time people are willing to spend before some kinda fast travel would be preferrable?
1 minute?
5 minutes?
10 minutes?
15 minutes?
30 minutes?
It's not about grind grind grind and cutting the time between grinding, at least not to me. It's about cutting out some of the tedium of traveling across a large world for the 20th time, especially when they have said the zones will be much larger than most any EQ zones were. Even if it were there same size as EQ where it took around 1.5 to 2 hours to go from Odus to Faydwer, that's a substantial amount of travel time. Granted players won't always be going such large distances but they will be traveling quite often. Now add to the normal travel the amount of travel players will be doing for corpse runs and we are starting to see a not insignificant amount of average playtime roped up in getting from point A to point B instead of being actively engaged in the world and doing the cooperative/teamwork based content.
How much time spent traveling for me personally? Not counting potential time securing a port or waiting for a boat, I would say roughly 25 minutes. Not initially but by the time a character is mid to mid-high level then it feels right to me that with the assistance of other players or one's own ports that almost anywhere is accessible around that timeframe.
I mean, I get that some people might enjoy what is tedious to me and want everyone running around on foot equally. But would all of those same people be willing to get rid of auction houses or player based shops in favor of a real player to player based trade economy? I mean if you want to sell your items to players and make some money then you should have to actively engage in the activity, not set up some shop or list something to auto-sell on an AH while you go out and farm even more items and money in the meantime (speeding mudflation).
Iksar said:I still don't see what is wrong with a couple classes having ports they can dish out for donations. Should everyone have access to resurrections too? It's not that far of a leap and I know I certainly hurt more paying 100+ plat for an xp rez in EQ. What about summon player? Why can one class allow people to skip content like that? Stealth & Summon Corpse? No fair I might "have" to donate to those people to help get my corpse back. Movespeed buffs? No fair they have free access to that and can sell buffs to others, I "have" to ask/donate to them or get left in the dust with longer travel time. Levitate? No fair they can get places others can't or get there far easier & run across bodies of water!
...and so on until the envy drags everything into the toilet.
Yeah it's a reasonable argument, but I think fast travel is in a different league.
Most of those other things happen after you've tried some content and failed. You are suffering the consequences of having fought some hard content and over-reached yourself or simply making a bad mistake. You had your fun, even though it didn't end well.
With class-gated fast travel, you haven't even got there. You're stuck doing nothing. You're not getting to try that new content you wanted to or join those new friends because a willing druid/wizard didn't happen along and you don't have time to do the run.
Buffs are different too. Teleporting is way more than an 'enhancement'. If you can't achieve something because you don't have that extra edge a buff gives you, then you probably shouldn't be doing it or If a buff is so powerful that you literally cannot do something without it, then it's probably too powerful or you shouldn't be able to have it (I believe VR have talked about scaling that kind of mega-buffing based power-levelling).
TL;DR: Teleporting (instant travel) is more than just another class utility.
Ghroznak said:I think a lot of people are making some assumptions regarding whether or not Pantheon areas will be like Everquest.
One example, being "stuck" in Karnors Castle during low activity hours and without teleports your option would be to just sit LFG for hour or quit. Are we so sure level-appropriate zones will be as isolated and far apart in Pantheon as they were in Everquest? If you only need to run for 10-15 minutes to get to another area with more activity and get a group there then is fast-travel and teleports really needed?
If it's only a 10-15 minute run to get to a group or a bank or a vendor or a crafting station or a trading center or whatever else needs doing regularly in the game then, sure, that's cool with me (though 10-15 minutes of doing the same routes over and over will still turn off some people when they have an hour or two only in each session, but I think it's reasonable).
And Pantheon isn't EverQuest, no. It'll probably have bigger zones, because it can? Also they've said zones will contain multiple level ranges, so there will possibly be less expectation of remaining static for long periods? I'm not assuming Pantheon will be 'worse' for travel times, but I'm not assuming 'better' either.
Ghroznak said:Furthermore is Pantheon ONLY going to be about grinding levels? Only about power-gaming? Is leveling going to be the only focus of the game?
Do we really only want fast-travel explicitly because we want to get to a power-gaming group as fast as possible to grind out as much experience as possible for the time we have to play?
Is fast-travel only desired because one day there might be few people LFG in the specific dungeon you are in so you need a less-than-10-minute way of getting to another group on another continent in a completely different dungeon just so you can maximize the experience grind?
Nope. Everyone has limited time to play and stuff to do. Crafters, traders, explorers, they all have somewhere they want to be and don't want to spend their real time doing the same things over and over. It's not about powergaming, it's about having fun. Some people like to watch the trailers at the cinema, but if you went a couple of times every week, they are mostly the same and you'll probably just turn up for the main show.
Ghroznak said:Now some might say "that's all stupid roleplaying stuff" or "if you want to just chat then use skype". Well, for me I'd rather say "if you don't want do non-xp-grind stuff then play one of the dozens of others MMO's out there which are specifically aimed at nothing but grind exp" or "if you don't like to socialize in an MMO then play a singleplayer game like Fallout 4 or Skyrim instead".
Ugh please don't do that. The desire to not want to make the same long run dozens of times does not equate to not wanting to role-play or socialise. Grouping up with others provides much more opportunity to socialise and role-play. As does going the the auction or crafting house or the many other reasons you'd want to teleport somewhere.
Everyone has at least one cool story about that time they made a long dangerous journey. People have many many more cool and interesting stories from the journey's end adventures.
But, those epic journeys will still happen (VR have said things like "you'll need to get there at least once"). And no one is talking about removing exploring, quite the opposite. We're talking about removing the commute, etc.
Ghroznak said:Here's a question I'd like to raise: Is fast travel really only a necessity for maximizing the experience grind potential of every play session?
People suggest griffon-rides like WoW, or horse-transports like Everquest 2. Do we really need these types of NPC traveling methods if we will have access to run-speed buffs anyways, and in the later levels getting mounts and such as well?
Mounts and other run-speed buffs are different. They are used to 'avoid content' as much as shorten travel times and that can be dangerous to allow to proliferate.
Ghroznak said:Again, most of this is all wild speculation because most of our experience is from other games, typically Everquest, and we don't know how far apart the different zones are going to be in Pantheon.
How about we try to quantify what constitutes "too much time spent on traveling": example, lets say every single dungeon in Pantheon can be reached in less than 15 minutes from the center of a continent. Do we then really need fast travel anywhere other than between continents? Is 15 minutes too long for people to run? What if it's 20 minutes at the most to reach anywhere on a continent from the central location?
What is the maximum "time spent traveling" time people are willing to spend before some kinda fast travel would be preferrable?
Well, here's where I trust in Brad (and VR). They've done a LOT of thinking on this and are kinda aiming at a 2 hour play slot being viable. With that in mind I'm sure they will tailor the game to having travel time be appropriate. They have already spoken about several methods that are in consideration.
There really is no point in getting specific here because of course we just don't know the specifics yet.
It's still interesting to discuss the possibilities and the opinions though. People get bent out of shape about it, which is a little silly, but generally it's good to talk about hese things.
I get that people don't like tedious things, but I don't see "this is tedious" as a good argument for removing things or simplifiying them. For things like travel times the larger picture has to be regarded and not just what the individual or majority wants, because in certain cases you can't go by what the majority wants, or feels like. If we do that then, sure, everyone can agree that corpse runs suck... so lets remove corpseruns. Or wait, that is exactly what happened in most modern MMO's and did that lead to a good thing? People didn't like having to run around or pay druids and wizards for teleports, so lets remove that and introduce Nexus.
Isn't "listening to the majority" the whole reason modern MMO's have become such instant-gratification games, simply because developers caved in and made everything quick, convenient, simplified and let's be honest... dumbed everything down.
Conversely, look at the replies people get from the developer of Dark Souls when complaining that the game is too hard or things are tedious. Basically they are told to suck it up and get good. Yet, despite the difficulty and/or tedious parts of that game the developer refuses to dumb down the content.
I'm not saying it should take hours to get from A to B, but also it shouldn't take 3 minutes either. This is why I raised the question regarding quantifying it. How much time spent on travel is considered 'too much'?
Sure the example of going from Odus to Faydwer taking a long time is valid. Yes it did take a long time if you set out on that journey on foot. However, how often did you need to do that journey? Most players would do the journey, get a bind in Faydwer and then spend the next days, if not weeks, playing around in Faydwer. The journey itself could be quite an adventure and you'd run into and meet different people, see different kinds of things and maybe even spend some time in an area before even getting to Faydwer simply because something or someone caught your interest along the way. Once you got to Faydwer that would be the place you hung out.
There was no need to keep traveling back and forth from Odus to Faydwer. These days on the TLP servers such travel might happen but that is only because people have global chat channels and want to power-game their characters which means nomatter where they are in the world they are willing to take a group anywhere else and then fast-travel to that spot using teleports.
By making the journey to different places take time and not just happen willy-nilly you also create a sense of belonging for those players. Those who started out in Faydwer and spent their time there leveling up, meeting people, exploring, getting to know the layout of both Kelethin and Felwithe would feel like they were coming home everytime they returned. Sure you could travel to Commons, or Karanas or Odus, but coming back to Kelethin, going up the lift and finding your way back to your guildmaster legit felt like you were home again.
That sense of belonging is entirely shattered and non-existent when you can just hop around the whole game almost at will.
Again, I'm not opposed to SOME forms of fast-travel, but I am VERY opposed to excessive amounts of fast-travel that diminish that sense of belonging and lets players simply skip content and move around the world with no effort at all.
Hence why I'm in support of single-location per continent fast travel points and also one-way travel from a very few locations in the wild back to the main cities, but NOT from the cities and back out into the wild. That journey should always be done on foot.
Also, when fast-travel is not easily accessible it doesn't mean players are locked or stuck. It simply means players will need to put in a minimal amount of effort to plan what they are doing and where they are going. Stockpile your crafting materials and do one return trip to the main city to do crafting every few days, or once a week, rather than every day or multiple times a day. It's simple planning, which is a good thing in my book.
Ghroznak said:I get that people don't like tedious things, but I don't see "this is tedious" as a good argument for removing things or simplifiying them.
That's not the sole argument being used, though. The biggest one that I (and VR) have used is that lack of fast travel can effectively exclude people with limited time from joining their friends and/or from making meaningful achievements.
Ghroznak said:Isn't "listening to the majority" the whole reason modern MMO's have become such instant-gratification games, simply because developers caved in and made everything quick, convenient, simplified and let's be honest... dumbed everything down.
Yep and we have to look out for that for sure. But, the people here aren't 'the majority'. I don't think we have major differences at all, but some see some areas as more important than others for bringing back 'old-school' whatever that is.
For me it's mostly about wanting challenging content that requires group tactics to overcome and about slowing down the pace of progression and exploration (that's 'exploration' not 'travel'). I am pretty happy even with epic camps that took many many hours of grinding to get that rare NPC with a rare drop. In that situation you are often holding down a tough camp, often solo because others may not have the motivation to help for that length of time. It's not tedious because it's long *and* difficult. It's a real challenge. Running for a couple of hours to get somewhere is not in the same league.
Ghroznak said:Conversely, look at the replies people get from the developer of Dark Souls when complaining that the game is too hard or things are tedious. Basically they are told to suck it up and get good. Yet, despite the difficulty and/or tedious parts of that game the developer refuses to dumb down the content.
Dark Souls is known for being tedious? Not that I know of. Difficult, yes. You may have to repeat a combat over and over and over until you find the right tactic or just plain get lucky, but running the same *long* route over and over? Not something I've heard complained of.
Ghroznak said:I'm not saying it should take hours to get from A to B, but also it shouldn't take 3 minutes either. This is why I raised the question regarding quantifying it. How much time spent on travel is considered 'too much'?
Understood and perhaps that's why this argument goes on. We simply don't know at this point enough to quantify. It's still worth discussing though, as long as people can remain calm :)
Ghroznak said:Sure the example of going from Odus to Faydwer taking a long time is valid. Yes it did take a long time if you set out on that journey on foot. However, how often did you need to do that journey?
Most players would do the journey, get a bind in Faydwer and then spend the next days, if not weeks, playing around in Faydwer. The journey itself could be quite an adventure and you'd run into and meet different people, see different kinds of things and maybe even spend some time in an area before even getting to Faydwer simply because something or someone caught your interest along the way. Once you got to Faydwer that would be the place you hung out.
Yeah and that's a good point. I don't think anyone is asking for short journeys unless you've done them at least once 'manually' already. I would go further and say you should have to become familiar with the route and destination somehow (attunement 'quests'?) before fast travel is available.
Also, if your destination has trainers and vendors and whatnot, then, yeah, you aren't 'stuck'.
In many ways, even EQ classic teleporting was too easy. The druids and wizards just picked up a spell and could suddenly whizz between continents to places they'd never been (if I remember correctly?). I don't like that.
Ghroznak said:By making the journey to different places take time and not just happen willy-nilly you also create a sense of belonging for those players. Those who started out in Faydwer and spent their time there leveling up, meeting people, exploring, getting to know the layout of both Kelethin and Felwithe would feel like they were coming home everytime they returned. Sure you could travel to Commons, or Karanas or Odus, but coming back to Kelethin, going up the lift and finding your way back to your guildmaster legit felt like you were home again.
That sense of belonging is entirely shattered and non-existent when you can just hop around the whole game almost at will.
Agreed, but I don't think anyone has asked for "willy-nilly" teleporting have they?
Ghroznak said:Also, when fast-travel is not easily accessible it doesn't mean players are locked or stuck. It simply means players will need to put in a minimal amount of effort to plan what they are doing and where they are going. Stockpile your crafting materials and do one return trip to the main city to do crafting every few days, or once a week, rather than every day or multiple times a day. It's simple planning, which is a good thing in my book.
Well, yes, planning is one thing, but until we know the sizes of our bags and the way encumberance works and related details, we can't say for sure what will 'work'. This is where we have to trust in VR and the testers to try it out and give their feedback.
Until then, it's not surprising that when we know Pantheon is a spiritual sucessor to EQ (and Vanguard) we will be comparing to our experiences in EQ (and Vanguard) and *my* experiences of class-gated teleporting were overall not good in Classic EQ or in EQ P99...
In another thread I said I really hope VR think about how village/town communities really work and that the bank, vending, trading and crafting areas are close together. I was really surprised no one squealed about "no one will visit the rest of the town!" or "there's no feeling of reward if it's not an effort!" or some such, but apparently, *that* convenience was *not* an evil 'modern MMO' desire *shrug*. Why is that different to not wanting repeat slow travel? I dunno.
disposalist said:Well, yes, planning is one thing, but until we know the sizes of our bags and the way encumberance works and related details, we can't say for sure what will 'work'. This is where we have to trust in VR and the testers to try it out and give their feedback.
Until then, it's not surprising that when we know Pantheon is a spiritual sucessor to EQ (and Vanguard) we will be comparing to our experiences in EQ (and Vanguard) and *my* experiences of class-gated teleporting were overall not good in Classic EQ or in EQ P99...
Digression from the maintopic (well at least somewhat), but I would see it as a nice thing if you could have a stash or storage in the outposts. There you would gather up the weapons, armor, crafting items and other knick-knacks you found while exploring the areas or fighting in the nearby dungeons. Then when you are ready to head back to the city you would hire a donkey, pack it up with your items and go on your way back to the city (which could have random chances of enemies spawning and attacking you, and if they defeat you then donkey and loot returns to outpost).
Perhaps a bit inspired by the donkey/horse/wagon trading from Black Desert, but it would be a way to stockpile items and then go back to the big city to either use those items (crafting for instance) or to sell them to other players.
Just a thought while reading through this stuff :)
Ghroznak said:disposalist said:Well, yes, planning is one thing, but until we know the sizes of our bags and the way encumberance works and related details, we can't say for sure what will 'work'. This is where we have to trust in VR and the testers to try it out and give their feedback.
Until then, it's not surprising that when we know Pantheon is a spiritual sucessor to EQ (and Vanguard) we will be comparing to our experiences in EQ (and Vanguard) and *my* experiences of class-gated teleporting were overall not good in Classic EQ or in EQ P99...
Digression from the maintopic (well at least somewhat), but I would see it as a nice thing if you could have a stash or storage in the outposts. There you would gather up the weapons, armor, crafting items and other knick-knacks you found while exploring the areas or fighting in the nearby dungeons. Then when you are ready to head back to the city you would hire a donkey, pack it up with your items and go on your way back to the city (which could have random chances of enemies spawning and attacking you, and if they defeat you then donkey and loot returns to outpost).
Perhaps a bit inspired by the donkey/horse/wagon trading from Black Desert, but it would be a way to stockpile items and then go back to the big city to either use those items (crafting for instance) or to sell them to other players.
Just a thought while reading through this stuff :)
Yeah and that kind of stuff would alleviate a lot of the 'need' for fast travel. That's the kind of comment I always hope this sort of discussion should bring up (rather than the normal "No! You're dumb!" comments hehe)
A lack of fast travel would be much less painful if the need for it was mitigated in a few ways.
I don't think that's a digression at all - it's totally on point.
There could be regular merchant caravans that pass by the dungeon entrance. They could take your loot and, for a fee, deliver it 'home' or, at a large discount, buy it there and then. Sure, it should be much more profitable to carry the stuff back yourself, but some players would do it and some wouldn't.
Like I've said a few times, we need to examine why travel time is considered tedious/boring/not-even-gameplay, and I think it would be worthwhile to look into mechanics that could change that.
If you've got 2 hours and just want to get to a group, get a port. (I might say, if you know you've only got two hours, plan and log out where you will want to be or make sure your group's caravan is set up optimally to begin with) But, on the other hand, what if these were a thing:
- Rare unpredictable resource nodes that you won't see on popular "fast travel" routes like between a spire and a dungeon.
- Triggered worthwhile encounters like ambushes with interesting loot or wandering merchants with unusual items on the longer, "tedious" (urgh) paths.
- Perception queues that actually change from week to week, or perhaps more realistically from month to month, just to keep you guessing.
- In-character, immersive rewards from an NPC ranger for helping to keep a road safe of bandits/vermin/monsters.
- et cetera
Raine said:...(I might say, if you know you've only got two hours, plan and log out where you will want to be or make sure your group's caravan is set up optimally to begin with)
I want to address this thought, because it gets used regularly. It's not that simple. Yes, it can work, but often by the time you've spent an hour getting somewhere, the opportunity that you went for is gone. Or if you get there and log out, when you log back in a day or two later, the place is abandoned and you need to get back to where you were in the first place.
Ok, it's not common, but it's regular enough and a serious enough annoyance to hope VR get around it (and from what they've said, they are addressing it).
Raine said:But, on the other hand, what if these were a thing: -
- Rare unpredictable resource nodes that you won't see on popular "fast travel" routes like between a spire and a dungeon.
- Triggered worthwhile encounters like ambushes with interesting loot or wandering merchants with unusual items on the longer, "tedious" (urgh) paths.
- Perception queues that actually change from week to week, or perhaps more realistically from month to month, just to keep you guessing.
- In-character, immersive rewards from an NPC ranger for helping to keep a road safe of bandits/vermin/monsters.
- et cetera
Awesome ideas and, yeah, whilst that doesn't remove some aspects the issue (most make the route take longer! hehe) it certainly would mean it would be less 'tedious' to do those runs.
Raine said:- Rare unpredictable resource nodes that you won't see on popular "fast travel" routes like between a spire and a dungeon.
- Triggered worthwhile encounters like ambushes with interesting loot or wandering merchants with unusual items on the longer, "tedious" (urgh) paths.
- Perception queues that actually change from week to week, or perhaps more realistically from month to month, just to keep you guessing.
- In-character, immersive rewards from an NPC ranger for helping to keep a road safe of bandits/vermin/monsters.
- et cetera
It's not uncommon for developers to use heat-maps to log/map out where players are most active or which routes they use the most. Using such heat maps could also be a method for setting up triggered events. E.g. areas that are not used or wandered much could start generating more rare nodes for crafting materials or even spawn named type of mobs that drop unique items. That would encourage players to be more active in those areas, and as they become more active and other areas become less used this would start to shift. It would create a more dynamic world where players might be shifting around a bit more, at least when hunting or gathering in the open areas.
Likewise, areas that are used a lot, especially bee-line routes between a city and an outpost for instance could start to trigger ambushes, lorewise it would be bandits and highwaymen that prey on the "trade routes" where people tend to be wandering. That too might encourage players to not just follow the easiest path, but try to be a bit more clever in where to go when out in the wild world.
Plus such dynamic content and triggered events, as well as a larger abundance of crafting nodes in less used areas would make traveling less tedious since you wouldn't know exactly what to expect when you are out there.
The trick would be to balance this properly so you don't get ambushed every 2 minutes and such.
Yeah I feel like some people delved way too deep into this topic, which is a good and a bad thing. The original idea was, if they do, do druid and wizard teleporting/porting, have they can make each class different without both having that "same feel" like; "oh both can teleport to the other landmass", or "oh it doesn't matter which one you get, only which one is closer to where you want to go." I think changing it go so each is slightly different; "Druids are the railroads of the landmasses, and Wizards are the Airports." I think is a good way to look at changing it up. Ships, specially is a good way to get ppl around without having a need to rely on a druid or wizard but at the same time giving them a meaning. Yeah you can just use a ship, but if you can get a wizard to do it, it might be faster, might not depending on how long it takes you to find a wizard, so a ship might be faster kind of thing. We do not know, in full details, just how big the world is. We get a general idea of the zones, yes. But maybe druid and wizard ports are something that might come later when the world is bigger, maybe it's big enough to warrant some teleporting/porting. *shrugs* Again, the original post was to talk about how to change up the "meta" of both druids and wizards having access to porting/teleporting and how we can change them both slightly while still having a use for both.
Further more, Thank you everyone for taking the time and voices your input on this topic and even taking it into areas that some, including myself, didn't think to think. Openly talking about topics like this, putting in our two cents, the pros and cons, and really voices our opinions and thoughts while being respectful to one another, I feel, is a great way to can help the devs when it comes time to look at something about this topic. They can see what we think, can possible see some pro and cons that maybe they didn't think of and overall help build a better system, game, mechanics!
Thank you everyone for your input, and I hope to see more thoughts on the topic! <3 o7
I think the need for some form of fast travel is just based on the style of game. You need to rely on 5 other people (in most cases to be efficient). There should be some way for those people to come together.
In WoW, you can do everything solo. If wow had no fast travel. Ok. If I dont want to run 30 mins to a group I'll just solo or quest over here and it doesnt really hurt me.
Now before you say every class has the option to solo. Let's not be ridiculous lol. A necro in eq soloing is exponentially more efficient than a warrior. Let's keep it fair!
Venjenz said:If I may be so bold as to offer an opinion - I am certain whatever travel mechanics the fine folks at VR have designed, we'll all be pleased.
Lol, you dont have to comment this on every thread you posted in. We know that ultimately it's up to VR. But it doesnt hurt to toss ideas out there. Since you never know who is looking.
Venjenz said:Porygon said:Lol, you dont have to comment this on every thread you posted in. We know that ultimately it's up to VR. But it doesnt hurt to toss ideas out there. Since you never know who is looking.
Just being supportive.
I get it man. But think of it like this. If we never questioned the intent of the developers... what is even the reason for the forums!
Porygon said:what is even the reason for the forums!
To be positive and uplifting. What else?
On topic - in the end, I have played every online game since UO, so whatever the travel system ends up being, I've done it before and can do it again. In my humble opinion, I would imagine that would hold true for most of the Pantheon faithful. So why question what is coming when (EDIT - used the word "we" here when I should have used "I") I can simply be positive and uplifiting about it?
I am, generally speaking, against the idea of "nerfing" a class as your first line of defense in response to an imbalance issue. In my mind, with enough creativity and perspective, you can find a mutually-beneficial (dare I say fun) solution to nearly any problem. Getting back to the essence of the original topic, I don't think you necessarily need to limit one class' group travel capabilities in relation to another's to achieve equity. Instead, make the solution one that encourages (and rewards) collaboration.
For example, maybe an individual druid or wizard has a respectable competence for moving her or his group across a great distance. Perhaps there are "tiers" of potential teleportation destinations, ones of varying desirability/quality in terms of location or speed. Then, consider that same druid and wizard working together, focusing their energies on some sort of obelisk or other object to have a chance at teleporting their group to a destination of a higher tier. Taking the concept a step further, grant a skilled mage the ability to temporarily summon a prism through which those energies can be focused to reach a destination of yet an even higher tier. While a single character may have the ability to overcome a shared obstacle, working together a team can solve the problem more effectively and with a greater sense of satisfaction.