Post deleted - not helpful, my apologies.
Venjenz said:dorotea said:Some of the comments not too far above seem to use "ability to solo" as a negative.
Every class should be able to solo (meaning in landscape content, not to solo group content in dungeons).
Some will be able to do it better than others but *every* class should be able to go out and kill some things when the player doesn't have enough uninterrupted time to group or just isn't in the4 mood.
WoW clone, incoming.
Nothing wrong with being able to solo here and there so long as long as the exp gain is notably less & slower than grouping.
disposalist said:Apologies if people think this has already been discussed, but I think previous 'medding' discussions (from a search) were more about casters having to sit during combat or meditation animations or whatever.
I would like to address something that has bugged me in many games over the years, even pen and paper RPGs, not just computer MMORPGs: -
Why don't warriors have to rest?
I find appeal in all 'classes'. Over the years I've had all manner of 'avatars', but one thing that appears universal (and is universally annoying) is that magic-users have to rest (meditate) to regain power (mana) and warriors just keep swinging and swinging and swinging...
In some games there's a 'stamina' reserve. I think Elder Scrolls Online did this well where you can even have characters that have abilities drawing from both mana and stamina reserves in a similar way, but, ironically, it was often the stamina reserve that was harder to replenish as running, for example, could run you out of your stamina reserve, where mana would replenish while running. A running mage = good to fight. A running warrior = useless.
So, what I am getting to is this: What I have seen so far in Pantheon streams leads me to believe it will operate pretty much like EQ did, ie. Warriors have a stamina reserver that may restrict their ability to 'burst' attacks, but they can always continue default attacks while stamina is very quickly regained. They bascially are able to use their special combat abilities over and over for ever with no need to stop short of dying and, even when somehow low on reserves of physical power, they have 'default' combat attacks that continue.
Casters however have a mana reserve that is exhausted as they use abilities but only returns slowly and while completely inactive. They have no 'default' attack and contribute in no way when their reserves are exhausted.
What this leads to (and has always lead to, even in Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper) is casters not having as much to do, spending much of their time inactive and even being resented for 'slowing things down'. I have had many a group in the past that criticises casters who do anything but use their most mana effecient, directly useful spells. Even if this isn't opening voiced, as a caster you often pressure yourself to be 'efficient' in order to not slow down the progress of the group or yourself even. Lots of more 'fun' and 'utility' spells are out of consideration because there are warriors champing at the bit to start swinging at the next monster.
Now, I fully understand and support the idea that 'downtime' encourages a good thoughtful pace of combat and allows for important social interaction and bonding.
What I question is why warriors don't have to do the same as wizards? Even a very fit man after swinging a sword for a few minutes will be exhausted and need to rest to continue doing anything but the most basic of combat moves.
I think there is no reason that 'power' and 'stamina' shouldn't mean exactly the same thing to both casters and sword-swingers.
A warrior executes an ability, he spends power (physical energy reserves) and stamina (his immediate capacity to execute abilities in bursts). Until he rests, his energy reserves are spent, but his stamina returns as he just performs normal/default combat. If he runs out of power, he can only maintain a basic/default combat output/defense.
A mage is exactly the same, but spends magical power. His stamina for casting in quick bursts is the same as the warrior, though that stamina has perhaps a more mental aspect, it functions identically. Resting is identical to the warrior, though is more meditative. He should alos have a basic/default combat output (wand magic missiles, staff fire jet, whatever).
Some warriors (monks) may be a more meditative 'rest'. It doesn't matter.
What I would suggest, along with this approach, is an improved method of regaining power in combat. Warriors would need to perhaps sing battle songs to regain power, but obviously this would mean no use of special abilities. Mages would need to enter a trancelike state where they could only concentrate enough to fire the odd wand missile. Clerics would chant hymns and could only continue limited mace swinging.
TLDR: All classes have Power and Stamina reserves. All abilities cost power and stamina. Stamina restricts bursting of abilities for all. All regain stamina quickly in combat. All have default attacks/defenses that don't need power/stamina. All need rest to regain power. An addition of some kind of in-combat power regain 'rest' should be made for all classes during which only default attack/defense can happen.
I realise this is a fundamental thing for combat and would be a significant change to the EQ way, but I would love it to be considered for Pantheon.
Even if combat design and balance has gone too far to change the way warriors work, adding an in-combat mana regen method and a default damage ability for casters would go a long way to making the experience more fun and less frustrating.
I would love my cleric to go into a hymn chanting trance while still swinging his mace or my wizard to plant his staff before him and go into a trance while it spurts magic missiles.
Please consider it, VR. Casters often get the dull end of combat otherwise. When I last played EQ (Project 99 a couple of years ago) I tried casters but settled on a Monk purely because casters are so... passive... by comparison.
Pulled the OP back to the topic at hand.
The idea proposed has some dynamic affects I think I may like to see. If a melee class is engaged and has stamina and other spells, auras, etc. can they get exhausted? I would think the answer should be yes. I know some will hammer the idea, but this dynamic will change how combat is done to a degree. Planning of course is taken to account but the added feature of fatigue should be taken into account. This should be for casters or a form of it. The standard routine of taking down a mob or boss is so 1999( I will catch hell for that one).
If it can be done it would just be an added mechanic to the combat system. If a warrior has to pull back the backup tank has to step it up. Makes for a real interesting encounter imo.
Just thoughts.
Was talking about this in the Discord channel but I like the idea of players having solo functionality that helps them prepare for group sessions. This could involve colored mana or harvesting any kind of resource that could be used as a reagent for certain abilities/spells. I think XP accumulation should be really slow overall for any solo player but if someone is able to acquire resources during that time that can later be spent to boost their power, especially in a group setting, that would be fantastic.
The OP's actual issue was that medding (for him or her) was boring. I know the thread has ranged a bit here and there. I thought I would offer some suggestions.
First, you could still med as normal, just sit down and regen mana at an accelerated rate.
What about some sort of enhanced mana regeneration which some downsides? A channeled 15 second (or whatever) mana regen that you could NOT end early. You were stuck with the duration. For a healer this is a calculated risk, as a mob could decide to crit the tank 6 times in a row. It could also generate a large amount of aggro and render the caster somehow vulnerable (can't move, AC set to zero, mob always crits you, etc...). This would make it a caculated risk for non healers also. Only usable in combat seems reasonable.
My other thought is that the enhanced mana regen ability could have a lingering negative effect. You are exhausted and can't move. You are mentally fatigued and hallucinate for 30 seconds, or have a higher fizzle chance, or you spells are all only 80% effective. Stuff like that.
Or you could bring back the dreaded - stare at my spellbook for a few extra mana per tick. Lots of ways to make downtime more fun if you just get creative.
You could even make it fun with the visual from each class. A summoner is siphoning mana from some rift in the fabric of the universe. A necro is drawing darkness and bits of bone and blood from the surrounding environment.
Just some thoughts.
spryler said:Or you could bring back the dreaded - stare at my spellbook for a few extra mana per tick. Lots of ways to make downtime more fun if you just get creative.
Had to laugh at this one, but, yeah, why not?! If we're talking about adding options, why not add ones that are even more restrictive, but give slightly better regen.
The return of the nose-in-spellbook screen!
Oxillion said:disposalist said:Apologies if people think this has already been discussed, but I think previous 'medding' discussions (from a search) were more about casters having to sit during combat or meditation animations or whatever.
I would like to address something that has bugged me in many games over the years, even pen and paper RPGs, not just computer MMORPGs: -
Why don't warriors have to rest?
I find appeal in all 'classes'. Over the years I've had all manner of 'avatars', but one thing that appears universal (and is universally annoying) is that magic-users have to rest (meditate) to regain power (mana) and warriors just keep swinging and swinging and swinging...
In some games there's a 'stamina' reserve. I think Elder Scrolls Online did this well where you can even have characters that have abilities drawing from both mana and stamina reserves in a similar way, but, ironically, it was often the stamina reserve that was harder to replenish as running, for example, could run you out of your stamina reserve, where mana would replenish while running. A running mage = good to fight. A running warrior = useless.
So, what I am getting to is this: What I have seen so far in Pantheon streams leads me to believe it will operate pretty much like EQ did, ie. Warriors have a stamina reserver that may restrict their ability to 'burst' attacks, but they can always continue default attacks while stamina is very quickly regained. They bascially are able to use their special combat abilities over and over for ever with no need to stop short of dying and, even when somehow low on reserves of physical power, they have 'default' combat attacks that continue.
Casters however have a mana reserve that is exhausted as they use abilities but only returns slowly and while completely inactive. They have no 'default' attack and contribute in no way when their reserves are exhausted.
What this leads to (and has always lead to, even in Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper) is casters not having as much to do, spending much of their time inactive and even being resented for 'slowing things down'. I have had many a group in the past that criticises casters who do anything but use their most mana effecient, directly useful spells. Even if this isn't opening voiced, as a caster you often pressure yourself to be 'efficient' in order to not slow down the progress of the group or yourself even. Lots of more 'fun' and 'utility' spells are out of consideration because there are warriors champing at the bit to start swinging at the next monster.
Now, I fully understand and support the idea that 'downtime' encourages a good thoughtful pace of combat and allows for important social interaction and bonding.
What I question is why warriors don't have to do the same as wizards? Even a very fit man after swinging a sword for a few minutes will be exhausted and need to rest to continue doing anything but the most basic of combat moves.
I think there is no reason that 'power' and 'stamina' shouldn't mean exactly the same thing to both casters and sword-swingers.
A warrior executes an ability, he spends power (physical energy reserves) and stamina (his immediate capacity to execute abilities in bursts). Until he rests, his energy reserves are spent, but his stamina returns as he just performs normal/default combat. If he runs out of power, he can only maintain a basic/default combat output/defense.
A mage is exactly the same, but spends magical power. His stamina for casting in quick bursts is the same as the warrior, though that stamina has perhaps a more mental aspect, it functions identically. Resting is identical to the warrior, though is more meditative. He should alos have a basic/default combat output (wand magic missiles, staff fire jet, whatever).
Some warriors (monks) may be a more meditative 'rest'. It doesn't matter.
What I would suggest, along with this approach, is an improved method of regaining power in combat. Warriors would need to perhaps sing battle songs to regain power, but obviously this would mean no use of special abilities. Mages would need to enter a trancelike state where they could only concentrate enough to fire the odd wand missile. Clerics would chant hymns and could only continue limited mace swinging.
TLDR: All classes have Power and Stamina reserves. All abilities cost power and stamina. Stamina restricts bursting of abilities for all. All regain stamina quickly in combat. All have default attacks/defenses that don't need power/stamina. All need rest to regain power. An addition of some kind of in-combat power regain 'rest' should be made for all classes during which only default attack/defense can happen.
I realise this is a fundamental thing for combat and would be a significant change to the EQ way, but I would love it to be considered for Pantheon.
Even if combat design and balance has gone too far to change the way warriors work, adding an in-combat mana regen method and a default damage ability for casters would go a long way to making the experience more fun and less frustrating.
I would love my cleric to go into a hymn chanting trance while still swinging his mace or my wizard to plant his staff before him and go into a trance while it spurts magic missiles.
Please consider it, VR. Casters often get the dull end of combat otherwise. When I last played EQ (Project 99 a couple of years ago) I tried casters but settled on a Monk purely because casters are so... passive... by comparison.
Pulled the OP back to the topic at hand.
The idea proposed has some dynamic affects I think I may like to see. If a melee class is engaged and has stamina and other spells, auras, etc. can they get exhausted? I would think the answer should be yes. I know some will hammer the idea, but this dynamic will change how combat is done to a degree. Planning of course is taken to account but the added feature of fatigue should be taken into account. This should be for casters or a form of it. The standard routine of taking down a mob or boss is so 1999( I will catch hell for that one).
If it can be done it would just be an added mechanic to the combat system. If a warrior has to pull back the backup tank has to step it up. Makes for a real interesting encounter imo.
Just thoughts.
If I recall correctly, it was mentioned in a stream that stamina will have more of an impactful role eventually and melee classes will need to manage it similarly (it won't work quite the same) to mana.
They even said there will be stamina 'heals' the example given that a rogue, for example, might be able to pull of some impressive burst damage if they are being stamina-healed by someone else (or themselves somehow?).
The other side of that must be that melee classes may run out of stamina if they burst use too many combat abilities.
I really doubt (and we don't want) melee stamina control will give them the same pace of combat as casters or end up with warriors 'needing to med', but the idea is good.
Some related comment from the recent KoopaTroopa stream: -
KoopaTroopa: I can drink water, right? To regain some mana?
Ben: No.
Brad: Do you have any magic mana water on you?
[KoopaTroopa looks in inventory]
Ben: Nope.
KoopaTroopa: I don't think so.
Chris: We do have pretty extensive plans for consumables. We've really not said much about that and won't for a little bit longer still until we've got a nice fuller picture to share but it won't quite be the same as you're describing, you know, sitting down eating and drinking to regain health and mana but some pretty cool stuff, nonetheless.
Ben: I will say this, though, Koopa, if you sit by using X...
KoopaTroopa: I just figured that out. I actually went with forward slash sit.
[KoopaTroopa's Ogre Shaman is STANDING hands together 'meditating' to regain mana]
KoopaTroopa: So does this work in combat then?
Ben: Yep.
Chris: Yep, it's the same thing, it's just a different animation when you're in combat.
Brad: But not as efficient, right?
Chris: I think it is exactly the same right now. That doesn't necessarily reflect how we're going to do it. Probably will not be as efficient in combat as it is out, but for now it's the same.
[As if prompted, combat ends and KoopaTroopa /sit s and his Ogre sits to meditate]
Haven't read the entire thread, because I'm at work and can only spend so much time goofing off without getting a whap on the back of my head - but I confess to being a little confused. I've always considered it a pretty fair trade-off.
If we're talking about classic EQ, we have two scenarios here. Solo downtime and group downtime.
GROUP
Warrior downtine is nil, with a healer - that is true.
Caster downtime is significant, due to medding - that is also true.
Yet, warrior downtime almost always ends up being the same as caster downtime. No puller/tank worth their salt will pull when the casters are low on mana.
That makes downtime pretty darn equal in a group scenario. I'm not saying it makes it fun and not boring - but it does make it equal.
SOLO
Warrior downtime is determined by health
Caster downtime is determined by mana
Health regenerates at a much slower rate than mana, while medding/sitting. Therefore, in a solo scenario, casters actually have less downtime. And even less if they're hybrids with healing abilities, such as a Paladin. For the solo scenario, I'd have to give the edge to the casters when talking about downtime due to mana/health regeneration.
******
This seems like a pretty fair trade-off to me. Not fun, not necessarily enjoyable, but not uneven by any means. That downtime is also a goal of VR (as I understand it) in Pantheon, and something that's missing from other MMO's. Arguments could be made that downtime should still be "fun" or "productive", but to say it's not fair, or imbalanced? I absolutely don't agree with that.
disposalist said:spryler said:Or you could bring back the dreaded - stare at my spellbook for a few extra mana per tick. Lots of ways to make downtime more fun if you just get creative.
Had to laugh at this one, but, yeah, why not?! If we're talking about adding options, why not add ones that are even more restrictive, but give slightly better regen.
The return of the nose-in-spellbook screen!
Ewwwh...lol Blinded by the spell book, sitting..and because you are sitting..puller brings back lots of mobs ..and they head straight for you.
The only indication the sitting caster had..was the sound of pounding feet heading in her direction. That means you have to interrupt your regain of mana to jump up and save your life. I don't miss that..I don't miss being the only one in group to die because I was trying to med, because I was blinded by a screen wide book. and an agro target because I was sitting. Who else in the group did that happen to..other than the cleric or another medding caster.
Did that ever happen to melee?
Nope because they didn't have to sit...they would just keep auto attacking. I just wonder if anyone can walk a mile in our shoes..see it from the caster side of things? :) Anyways from what I understand..Joppa has had a look at some of the things that affect casters being a useful part of the group. Let's hope that VR finds a better way...innovative way, and doesn't saddle us with old mechanics from 20 years ago. :)
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:disposalist said:spryler said:Or you could bring back the dreaded - stare at my spellbook for a few extra mana per tick. Lots of ways to make downtime more fun if you just get creative.
Had to laugh at this one, but, yeah, why not?! If we're talking about adding options, why not add ones that are even more restrictive, but give slightly better regen.
The return of the nose-in-spellbook screen!
Ewwwh...lol Blinded by the spell book, sitting..and because you are sitting..puller brings back lots of mobs ..and they head straight for you.
The only indication the sitting caster had..was the sound of pounding feet heading in her direction. That means you have to interrupt your regain of mana to jump up and save your life. I don't miss that..I don't miss being the only one in group to die because I was trying to med, because I was blinded by a screen wide book. and an agro target because I was sitting. Who else in the group did that happen to..other than the cleric or another medding caster.
Did that ever happen to melee?
Nope because they didn't have to sit...they would just keep auto attacking. I just wonder if anyone can walk a mile in our shoes..see it from the caster side of things? :) Anyways from what I understand..Joppa has had a look at some of the things that affect casters being a useful part of the group. Let's hope that VR finds a better way...innovative way, and doesn't saddle us with old mechanics from 20 years ago. :)
Cana
You are absolutely right. This is 20 year old mechanics. It should be upgraded. Medding should now be reading real books - audio books voiced by Ben Stein
I know I may be asking for a smack here, but I thought the rage bar and the "charge" skill in classic WoW added a lot of fun and resource management to the role of tank. Obviously in a game like Pantheon, a certain degree of downtime is expected, thus the speedy decay of the rage bar would not suit the game. However, it was a nice twist on resource management and I would not be opposed if similar elements found their way into warrior mechanics.
CanadinaXegony said:disposalist said:spryler said:Or you could bring back the dreaded - stare at my spellbook for a few extra mana per tick. Lots of ways to make downtime more fun if you just get creative.
Had to laugh at this one, but, yeah, why not?! If we're talking about adding options, why not add ones that are even more restrictive, but give slightly better regen.
The return of the nose-in-spellbook screen!
Ewwwh...lol Blinded by the spell book, sitting..and because you are sitting..puller brings back lots of mobs ..and they head straight for you.
The only indication the sitting caster had..was the sound of pounding feet heading in her direction. That means you have to interrupt your regain of mana to jump up and save your life. I don't miss that..I don't miss being the only one in group to die because I was trying to med, because I was blinded by a screen wide book. and an agro target because I was sitting. Who else in the group did that happen to..other than the cleric or another medding caster.
Did that ever happen to melee?
Nope because they didn't have to sit...they would just keep auto attacking. I just wonder if anyone can walk a mile in our shoes..see it from the caster side of things? :) Anyways from what I understand..Joppa has had a look at some of the things that affect casters being a useful part of the group. Let's hope that VR finds a better way...innovative way, and doesn't saddle us with old mechanics from 20 years ago. :)
Cana
Well, yeah, but since I was talking about adding less restrictive and boring options, I thought why not consider the more restrictive too, as long as they are *options* ;) Some folks appear to like the more restrictive options and it does add more tactical choice if it's balanced.
Options summary so far: -
Traditional Sitting Meditation
A mid-to-high concentration trance state (you can still look around somewhat. Perhaps limited (forward facing? 1st person?) camera mobility?)
Regen Rate: Good
Aggro Increase: Moderate
Interrupt: Stops meditation. Guaranteed to be hit (But should it make you stand?. Should it cause a stun? Should you take higher damage?)
Sitting Nose-in-spellbook Meditation
A high concetration trance state (sitting still unaware of surroundings)
Regen Rate: High
Aggro Increase: High
Interrupt: Stops meditation. Guaranteed to be hit (Stun and remain 'in' spellbook. High damage)
Standing Meditation
A mid concentration trance-like stance and some awareness (perhaps more camera mobility in this mode?)
Regen Rate: Moderate
Aggro Increase: Low
Interrupt: Stops meditation. Greater chance to be hit? (Short stun? Slighty higher damage first hit only?)
Slow Walking Meditation
A low concentration trance-like exercise that allows slow repositioning movement and reasonable awareness
Regen Rate: Low
Aggro Increase: Low
Interrupt: Brief halt in meditation. Slightly greater chance to be hit (No stun. No damage increase)
Active Combat Regen
A melee range combat attack (mace, staff, club, etc) that builds mana from adrenaline and/or draws from enemy energy
Regen Rate: Moderate
Aggro Increase: None but normal for combat
Interrupt: None, but maybe significant melee damage actually causes a loss of mana?
Passive combat regen
A stationary ranged combat attack stance (holy symbol, wand, etc) that draws mana from the ether around the caster
Regen Rate: Low
Aggro Increase: Moderate
Interrupt: Brief halt. Stun. Extra damage.
Mana Channel
A mana regaining spell/ability with casting time and mana chunk regained at completion
Regen Rate: Good
Aggro Increase: Low
Interrupt: No mana gained
Various Class-based abilities
I don't doubt various classes will have abilities like the Mana Channel idea much as they did in Everquest, eg. Shamans could 'cannibalise' their own health to regain chunks of mana.
These are just suggestions and would of course need tweaking, but hopefully you can see that all my suggestions have pros and cons. Bonuses and costs. Risk vs reward. I don't want to remove downtime or balance, I simply am interested in having more tactical choice than "if you aren't casting, sit".
The initial reason for my subject title wasn't to moan about melee/caster disparity but more to get people thinking about how melee and casters should work and why they are balanced like they are and why they are so different and that, maybe, they could both benefit from changes in the way they manage their resources, even if those changes are more subtle than my suggestions.
As always, I don't make suggestions hoping the devs just take the ideas and execute them, I hope they provide a source of thought and discussion for everyone.
VR obviously feel similarly since melee classes clearly have more abilities and we've seen them restricted by stamina use and have heard stamina regen/healing will be 'a thing' later in development. We've also seen recently a 'standing' in-combat meditation animation and heard it will work differently.
MettleRook said:I know I may be asking for a smack here, but I thought the rage bar and the "charge" skill in classic WoW added a lot of fun and resource management to the role of tank. Obviously in a game like Pantheon, a certain degree of downtime is expected, thus the speedy decay of the rage bar would not suit the game. However, it was a nice twist on resource management and I would not be opposed if similar elements found their way into warrior mechanics.
Those kind of mechanics where you build potential for abilities rather than always be draining resources are interesting, yeah.
You're right that the 'pressure' of rage decaying between fights might mess up the pace and downtime, so the devs would have to be careful to avoid that.
Hmm. I'd be interested to hear what the devs thought. It sounds like it could be a good addition, but might actually have deep gameplay implications.
Retsof said:CanadinaXegony said:disposalist said:spryler said:Or you could bring back the dreaded - stare at my spellbook for a few extra mana per tick. Lots of ways to make downtime more fun if you just get creative.
Had to laugh at this one, but, yeah, why not?! If we're talking about adding options, why not add ones that are even more restrictive, but give slightly better regen.
The return of the nose-in-spellbook screen!
Ewwwh...lol Blinded by the spell book, sitting..and because you are sitting..puller brings back lots of mobs ..and they head straight for you.
The only indication the sitting caster had..was the sound of pounding feet heading in her direction. That means you have to interrupt your regain of mana to jump up and save your life. I don't miss that..I don't miss being the only one in group to die because I was trying to med, because I was blinded by a screen wide book. and an agro target because I was sitting. Who else in the group did that happen to..other than the cleric or another medding caster.
Did that ever happen to melee?
Nope because they didn't have to sit...they would just keep auto attacking. I just wonder if anyone can walk a mile in our shoes..see it from the caster side of things? :) Anyways from what I understand..Joppa has had a look at some of the things that affect casters being a useful part of the group. Let's hope that VR finds a better way...innovative way, and doesn't saddle us with old mechanics from 20 years ago. :)
Cana
You are absolutely right. This is 20 year old mechanics. It should be upgraded. Medding should now be reading real books - audio books voiced by Ben Stein
As long as it doesn't block my screen I would be fine with that lol
@disposalist from that last stream with TheHiveLeader ...there is an opportunity to stand and med in the "praying" position. I like it, also it didn't seem that someone sitting and medding became an aggro target...unless the mob popped right on top of you. Also noted that the time to med seemed to be a little speedier. Which tells me the Devs have been thinking about this mechanic. :)
CanadinaXegony said:@disposalist from that last stream with TheHiveLeader ...there is an opportunity to stand and med in the "praying" position. I like it, also it didn't seem that someone sitting and medding became an aggro target...unless the mob popped right on top of you. Also noted that the time to med seemed to be a little speedier. Which tells me the Devs have been thinking about this mechanic. :)
Absolutely. I was very pleased to see all of that, but fully expect it to be tweaked as testing goes on (and fixes. As Chris said, being hit when you are sitting should guarantee the monster a hit, not see them flailing at you as if you were defending yourself!).
But I would still love to see more more more, hehe! I would so love my cleric to bellow battle hymns while smiting foes in order to re-charge the power from her goddess... but yeah, the option to stand for less mana (but less aggro or better defense?) is a cool start ;^)
Ghah disposalit's, you've came up with like "8 mana regeneration modes", how could any of them not beeing the cookie cutter one everyone should choose or be damned ?
However my opinion stands the same way : The warrior (or whatever) has no need to med, because it's the healer's bar that dicates his downtime. Alone, he is just a weak moose bandaging himselfs to survive.
MauvaisOeil said:Ghah disposalit's, you've came up with like "8 mana regeneration modes", how could any of them not beeing the cookie cutter one everyone should choose or be damned ?
Because they all have distinct pros and cons and situational usage. If it did turn out one was dominant it could be tweaked. I wasn't presenting a fleshed out design for VR to code to, just hoping to prompt discussion.
MauvaisOeil said:However my opinion stands the same way : The warrior (or whatever) has no need to med, because it's the healer's bar that dicates his downtime. Alone, he is just a weak moose bandaging himselfs to survive.
And the healer would still have downtime and have to manage resources with all of my proposed variations. I sincerely regret the title I picked for this thread - it's clearly triggered some defensive warriors. I will remember to be much more literal in my title in future.
I really don't think I've said anywhere that I want clerics to not have downtime or I want warriors to have downtime, I've simply highlighted the lack of 'fun' and 'interest' in sitting still and suggested balanced alternatives.
Luckily VR appear to get it and have introduced a standing med and have described a much more mobile Wizard. Maybe they will consider other more interesting variations too.
Nihimon said:disposalist said:... I've simply highlighted the lack of 'fun' and 'interest' in sitting still...
I think a lot of folks around here probably look at that downtime and see an opportunity to catch our breath and socialize a bit.
Of course, as do I sometimes.
And the traditional sit-med is still in my list of course, with the normal good mana regen and associated aggro and auto-hit. But I still say it's not the 'sitting still' that's the fun or interest. It's the downtime that gives you opportunity to socialise.
What if you also had some freedom to move or craft or use utility abilities/spells while meditating? You wouldn't *have* to, but wouldn't the option be nice? For when you don't need to discuss strategy or don't want to chat?
Downtime is fine. This does not have to be achieved by casters sitting still.
If caster downtime ends up being too much you'll end up with groups of ... war + 4 melee and a cleric. If that ends up still being too much with the 1 healer you'll see. War 3melee shaman cleric. Which is actually what I 6 boxed in eq because there is 0 downtime involved and the most efficient way to kill.
From some of the streams though, it doesnt seem like the downtime would be that bad even from recently rezzing. I dont see this ever becoming an issue.