Some of the comments not too far above seem to use "ability to solo" as a negative.
Every class should be able to solo (meaning in landscape content, not to solo group content in dungeons).
Some will be able to do it better than others but *every* class should be able to go out and kill some things when the player doesn't have enough uninterrupted time to group or just isn't in the4 mood.
disposalist said:You don't need to throw out the whole concept of downtime and balance to come up with something less boring than going prone and still.
Contributing to the fight isn't downtime. I'm not sure why you feel combat downtime hasn't been eliminated.
Am I missing something here?
To be clear, I don't mind if downtime isn't there, I play plenty of fast action games. Eliminating combat downtime in Pantheon fits right in with VR's anti-multibox strategy as well as the need for built in voice chat, so no downtime during combat even makes sense in this game.
A warrior, is a true class. They shouldnt be hindered too much, but also allowed to be supported by the roles around them. I would not want them to solo, as effective as supporting roles. Because lets face it the true warrior is the warrior class. They rely on supporting roles and should be treated as such.
We have enough hybrid classes out there to solo.
BeaverBiscuit said:How are you not eliminating downtime when you eliminate downtime? Allowing players to contribute to the fight isn't downtime.
If the issue is semantics, then eliminating is "to completely get rid of something", whereas disposalist has never argued for the complete removal of downtime. He has argued that in EQ and some other games there has been a lot of downtime for some classes and not much (sometimes literally none) for others.
The heart of the matter lies in how downtime is distributed amongst the group. The classic EQ status quo is having casters sit on their butt for 80% of combat time and cast 20% of the time while physical classes are up and active nearly 100% of combat time. This is a pretty dramatic disparity. However, after a tough fight the players with big resource pools (typically mana users) need to regen and so the whole group takes a downtime period until everyone is ready to go again.
You can very easily separate the concepts of downtime in combat and downtime out of combat. The downtime that I (and I think some others in the thread also) like is the communal rest that the whole group takes together. Everyone has the same combat flow where things get tense in the fights and then calm down again after them. The downtime that I don't like is when I'm sitting on my butt for an entire fight combat cycle because I'm still getting mana back (which is not necessarily the result of poor mana management).
I'm looking forward to seeing what Joppa and Co. have come up with for the wizard and others! The momentum thing sounded very intriguing and surprisingly novel.
Ainadak said:BeaverBiscuit said:How are you not eliminating downtime when you eliminate downtime? Allowing players to contribute to the fight isn't downtime.
If the issue is semantics, then eliminating is "to completely get rid of something", whereas disposalist has never argued for the complete removal of downtime. He has argued that in EQ and some other games there has been a lot of downtime for some classes and not much (sometimes literally none) for others.
The heart of the matter lies in how downtime is distributed amongst the group. The classic EQ status quo is having casters sit on their butt for 80% of combat time and cast 20% of the time while physical classes are up and active nearly 100% of combat time. This is a pretty dramatic disparity. However, after a tough fight the players with big resource pools (typically mana users) need to regen and so the whole group takes a downtime period until everyone is ready to go again.
You can very easily separate the concepts of downtime in combat and downtime out of combat. The downtime that I (and I think some others in the thread also) like is the communal rest that the whole group takes together. Everyone has the same combat flow where things get tense in the fights and then calm down again after them. The downtime that I don't like is when I'm sitting on my butt for an entire fight combat cycle because I'm still getting mana back (which is not necessarily the result of poor mana management).
I'm looking forward to seeing what Joppa and Co. have come up with for the wizard and others! The momentum thing sounded very intriguing and surprisingly novel.
Indeed inbetween combat downtime is amazing for communication and also risk/reward. The thing I have trouble understanding is combat downtime. Disposalist is making it sound like it hasn't been completely eliminated when characters will having something to do even when they are regening resources. I wanted to know if there's something I'm not taking into account which forces us to take downtime mid fight.
Also, I've reread Disposalist's comment and he failed to make a distinction between the two sorts of downtime. I haven't really seen any arguments against out of combat "going prone and still", so I'm curious what he has to say there.
Ainadak said:
I'm looking forward to seeing what Joppa and Co. have come up with for the wizard and others! The momentum thing sounded very intriguing and surprisingly novel.
I too found the comment about momentum interesting. I would hesitate to call it novel though as it sounds somewhat similar to the long and short attacks from ESO.
Casting class downtime always has been disproportionate in older mmos. I would even go so far as to say way over the top.
Ainadak said:
The heart of the matter lies in how downtime is distributed amongst the group. The classic EQ status quo is having casters sit on their butt for 80% of combat time and cast 20% of the time while physical classes are up and active nearly 100% of combat time. This is a pretty dramatic disparity. However, after a tough fight the players with big resource pools (typically mana users) need to regen and so the whole group takes a downtime period until everyone is ready to go again.
While I never played EQ, those percentages are close to where DAoC was as well. I would not mind seeing it balanced just a wee bit more toward 70/30 or 65/35. It is still a caster class and they still have to recover but being absolutely immoble is just one way to enforce downtime. Related to this is the inability to even move while casting in the elder mmos, is that what is planned for PRoF? Some newer games have eliminated the need to stop all motion and I am not sure that was the right thing to do.
Thanks, Ainadak, you paraphrase me correctly.
It's a complex issue, though and, as I've thought about it myself, I've realised there are multiple aspects.
Not only is downtime unevenly split in EQ (and in the streams so far it seems very similar in Pantheon) it's not just that: -
1) Uneven split (hence my original subject title). Casters spend a *lot* of time on their arse. No, the solution is not to have warriors need to sit still as much, though that's what some jumped on lol.
2) It's forced. There is no other option. I would like options. I (and others) have suggested some during the thread and now Joppa has come up with some for Wizards in the recent class reveal.
3) The current option is boring (just sitting stationery) and though there is need for good balance and pace, it doesn't have to be boring.
4) We possibly don't need as much downtime as we used to be in EQ? With voice chat, strategy and socialising can be done during the fighting and much quicker.
5) When downtime is 'caused' by the casters need to meditate, there is a pressure to be ultra mana efficient or you'll be 'letting down' the others, especially the non-casters. Any activity that 'wastes' mana is undesirable and attracts criticism of your play-style.
BeaverBiscuit said:Ainadak said:BeaverBiscuit said:How are you not eliminating downtime when you eliminate downtime? Allowing players to contribute to the fight isn't downtime.
If the issue is semantics, then eliminating is "to completely get rid of something", whereas disposalist has never argued for the complete removal of downtime. He has argued that in EQ and some other games there has been a lot of downtime for some classes and not much (sometimes literally none) for others.
The heart of the matter lies in how downtime is distributed amongst the group. The classic EQ status quo is having casters sit on their butt for 80% of combat time and cast 20% of the time while physical classes are up and active nearly 100% of combat time. This is a pretty dramatic disparity. However, after a tough fight the players with big resource pools (typically mana users) need to regen and so the whole group takes a downtime period until everyone is ready to go again.
You can very easily separate the concepts of downtime in combat and downtime out of combat. The downtime that I (and I think some others in the thread also) like is the communal rest that the whole group takes together. Everyone has the same combat flow where things get tense in the fights and then calm down again after them. The downtime that I don't like is when I'm sitting on my butt for an entire fight combat cycle because I'm still getting mana back (which is not necessarily the result of poor mana management).
I'm looking forward to seeing what Joppa and Co. have come up with for the wizard and others! The momentum thing sounded very intriguing and surprisingly novel.
Indeed inbetween combat downtime is amazing for communication and also risk/reward. The thing I have trouble understanding is combat downtime. Disposalist is making it sound like it hasn't been completely eliminated when characters will having something to do even when they are regening resources. I wanted to know if there's something I'm not taking into account which forces us to take downtime mid fight.
Also, I've reread Disposalist's comment and he failed to make a distinction between the two sorts of downtime. I haven't really seen any arguments against out of combat "going prone and still", so I'm curious what he has to say there.
I actually like *the option* of downtime between fights. I like a slower, tactical pace of play.
What I dislike is, as a caster, being *forced* to spend *all* downtime prone and stationery.
As a cleric in EQ, especially at high level in groups and raids, I spent *a lot* of time sat down. Most of my gaming life as my EQ cleric main was spent sitting then briefly standing, casting a heal and sitting again. Out of combat, it was just sitting and waiting for the puller to get back to the party (usually too soon). God forbid you are spotted doing anything other than meditating or casting anything other than the most mana efficient heal. If you did, you were 'slowing down the group'. Even if it wasn't said, it got to be so ingrained that you'd just do it anyway.
The reason I don't particularly distiguish between in and out of combat downtime is because it's the same mechanic when you're a caster. You are sat down. You watch a mana bar slowly rise. You watch your party mates scouting, repositioning, gathering resources maybe, even crafting in some MMORPGs, whatever - they aren't forced to sit still most of the time.
No, I don't feel the excitement of 'contributing to the fight' when I watch a mana bar slowly rise and contemplate whether I can afford the time to shuffle a few feet between heals. Regening my mana is not 'something to do' lol.
Yes, it's important to resource manage, to have a tactical pace of combat and to have socialising opportunity. No, this does not have to be achieved by forcing casters to remain on their arse for 90% of the time.
Yes, it was even worse while soloing, but I do *not* care about ability to solo when I talk about meditating and downtime.
To get this in context: I loved EQ. I loved playing my cleric. Yes, it was very rewarding to keep everyone alive and it was sometimes tricky to get the timing of heals right and to pick the right ones, but I would have loved it much more if I could have maybe cast some of my utility spells, or been able to move more, or have done other small things, or even had to melee while singing a battle hymn to regain mana.
Anything but just sitting.
disposalist said:I actually like *the option* of downtime between fights. I like a slower, tactical pace of play.
What I dislike is, as a caster, being *forced* to spend *all* downtime prone and stationery.
As a cleric in EQ, especially at high level in groups and raids, I spent *a lot* of time sat down. Most of my gaming life as my EQ cleric main was spent sitting then briefly standing, casting a heal and sitting again. Out of combat, it was just sitting and waiting for the puller to get back to the party (usually too soon). God forbid you are spotted doing anything other than meditating or casting anything other than the most mana efficient heal. If you did, you were 'slowing down the group'. Even if it wasn't said, it got to be so ingrained that you'd just do it anyway.
The reason I don't particularly distiguish between in and out of combat downtime is because it's the same mechanic when you're a caster. You are sat down. You watch a mana bar slowly rise. You watch your party mates scouting, repositioning, gathering resources maybe, even crafting in some MMORPGs, whatever - they aren't forced to sit still most of the time.
No, I don't feel the excitement of 'contributing to the fight' when I watch a mana bar slowly rise and contemplate whether I can afford the time to shuffle a few feet between heals. Regening my mana is not 'something to do' lol.
Yes, it's important to resource manage, to have a tactical pace of combat and to have socialising opportunity. No, this does not have to be achieved by forcing casters to remain on their arse for 90% of the time.
Yes, it was even worse while soloing, but I do *not* care about ability to solo when I talk about meditating and downtime.
To get this in context: I loved EQ. I loved playing my cleric. Yes, it was very rewarding to keep everyone alive and it was sometimes tricky to get the timing of heals right and to pick the right ones, but I would have loved it much more if I could have maybe cast some of my utility spells, or been able to move more, or have done other small things, or even had to melee while singing a battle hymn to regain mana.
Anything but just sitting.
Ahh thanks for the nice clarification here! Yea after lvl 30 or so in EQ it got pretty hard to be a grouped caster, I never made it past that point myself XD (non-solo).
When it comes to my earliest question, it seems we simply don't see eye to eye on what "downtime" is. To me it's doing nothing to the point where your only option is basically talking or doing something on your phone, or anything else that isn't actual gameplay. Thus, when we have something gameplay related to do while having downtime, we are no longer having downtime. To you downtime is something like...Not performing your classes' main role? Whatever it is there's something much more important here.
It's gonna be awesome when VR attaches different colors of mana to different types of spells. Depending on how exactly they do that, you're hopefully going to get to cast your utility and offense spells when your healing mana is out, and maybe doing so will help regen your healing mana. That would be a lot of fun to manage!
BeaverBiscuit said:disposalist said:I actually like *the option* of downtime between fights. I like a slower, tactical pace of play.
What I dislike is, as a caster, being *forced* to spend *all* downtime prone and stationery.
As a cleric in EQ, especially at high level in groups and raids, I spent *a lot* of time sat down. Most of my gaming life as my EQ cleric main was spent sitting then briefly standing, casting a heal and sitting again. Out of combat, it was just sitting and waiting for the puller to get back to the party (usually too soon). God forbid you are spotted doing anything other than meditating or casting anything other than the most mana efficient heal. If you did, you were 'slowing down the group'. Even if it wasn't said, it got to be so ingrained that you'd just do it anyway.
The reason I don't particularly distiguish between in and out of combat downtime is because it's the same mechanic when you're a caster. You are sat down. You watch a mana bar slowly rise. You watch your party mates scouting, repositioning, gathering resources maybe, even crafting in some MMORPGs, whatever - they aren't forced to sit still most of the time.
No, I don't feel the excitement of 'contributing to the fight' when I watch a mana bar slowly rise and contemplate whether I can afford the time to shuffle a few feet between heals. Regening my mana is not 'something to do' lol.
Yes, it's important to resource manage, to have a tactical pace of combat and to have socialising opportunity. No, this does not have to be achieved by forcing casters to remain on their arse for 90% of the time.
Yes, it was even worse while soloing, but I do *not* care about ability to solo when I talk about meditating and downtime.
To get this in context: I loved EQ. I loved playing my cleric. Yes, it was very rewarding to keep everyone alive and it was sometimes tricky to get the timing of heals right and to pick the right ones, but I would have loved it much more if I could have maybe cast some of my utility spells, or been able to move more, or have done other small things, or even had to melee while singing a battle hymn to regain mana.
Anything but just sitting.
Ahh thanks for the nice clarification here! Yea after lvl 30 or so in EQ it got pretty hard to be a grouped caster, I never made it past that point myself XD (non-solo).
When it comes to my earliest question, it seems we simply don't see eye to eye on what "downtime" is. To me it's doing nothing to the point where your only option is basically talking or doing something on your phone, or anything else that isn't actual gameplay. Thus, when we have something gameplay related to do while having downtime, we are no longer having downtime. To you downtime is something like...Not performing your classes' main role? Whatever it is there's something much more important here.
It's gonna be awesome when VR attaches different colors of mana to different types of spells. Depending on how exactly they do that, you're hopefully going to get to cast your utility and offense spells when your healing mana is out, and maybe doing so will help regen your healing mana. That would be a lot of fun to manage!
I see what you're saying with the 'downtime' definition. I suppose my whole problem with the way EQ casters played was that their main role just assumed you liked a lot of forced inactivity. When I tried Monk in P99 EQ a few months back it was the *total* opposite. Long group sessions were literally exhausting.
Although we've seen casters sitting in Pantheon streams, we are only in Pre-Alpha and given Chris's comments about how Wizards won't spend all their time sat down I'm confident Pantheon won't have as much caster sitting as EQ did.
They can't just be reserving in-combat caster mobility for wizards... Can they?...
A warrior geared on par with his level should be able to solo a warrior NPC of the same level. The fight should be a 50/50 success rate if the player doesnt use any abilities, just straight white melee damage. Using few abilities, the warrior player should survive with almost zero health left and be required to rest for a full 60+seconds before they have health regenerated.
This should be the baseline for difficulty of game content.
With full health, and unloading his best abilities, the same warrior should be boarderline capable of barely soloing two enemies at once...
I would say the same for other pure melee dps like the rogue and monk
Knights and hybrids have a slightly easier time soloing than the pure melee, and pure casters have the easiest time..
With wizards or summomers or necros being the only classes able to effectively solo without long downtimes between pulls.. but named should still be very very difficult for these classes.
my 2cp
disposalist said:1) Uneven split (hence my original subject title). Casters spend a *lot* of time on their arse. No, the solution is not to have warriors need to sit still as much, though that's what some jumped on lol.
What is the solution then ? To match some "realism", melee fighters could stack some endurance regen debuff due to exhaustion, but that would end up making long fights even more of a pain.
disposalist said:2) It's forced. There is no other option. I would like options. I (and others) have suggested some during the thread and now Joppa has come up with some for Wizards in the recent class reveal.
What are "options" ? There is no option. If you consider "giving the caster some way to actively regen his mana" then there is no other option left. If you give the option to regen passively by sitting, or actively by playing more, either the passive option will be useless because weaker, or the active on will be useless because requiring more play for the same results. Litteraly there is NO way to make an option or a choice of active versus semi active gameplay. Either everyone gets a pro active and permanent fighting style, either you cut it in half : melee get a pro active one, and casters get a semi-active one, because whatever you do, however you do it, giving the "choice" in the same class will only make a good choice versus a bad one.
disposalist said:3) The current option is boring (just sitting stationery) and though there is need for good balance and pace, it doesn't have to be boring.
Then what ? If what is boring to you, is quiet, quality and socializing time for another ? Just pick a melee and you're done, right ?
disposalist said:4) We possibly don't need as much downtime as we used to be in EQ? With voice chat, strategy and socialising can be done during the fighting and much quicker.
Probably not as much, for anyone. While medding was a pain for most casters, and an unreachable goal for hybrids, life regen for a lone melee was way more painfull as you had little way to improve it (don't start with funghi, who had a funghi except twinks ?). But does it need to go away ? Is mana meant to be a mindless jauge you empty with strong spells and fill with weak spells ? Is mana tactic, or dynamic ?
disposalist said:5) When downtime is 'caused' by the casters need to meditate, there is a pressure to be ultra mana efficient or you'll be 'letting down' the others, especially the non-casters. Any activity that 'wastes' mana is undesirable and attracts criticism of your play-style.
Beeing mana efficient is not a pressure, it's the BASE gameplay of any mana heavy class. What is this victimisation here ? When you pulled, did you have to be "efficient" in spawn checks and travell speed or could you just play at the pace you wanted, letting your group grind their teeth waiting for the next mob ? When you tanked, could you choose your pace depending of your will or mood, or did you have to be efficient ?
Everyone had to be efficient, melee had to be pro active, pullers had to adapt his pace to his group ability to manage mobs, tanks had to catch and keep mobs whatever the burst his dps brought, and healers & casters had to be the most mana efficient to allow the group to pull at the best pace possible withouth having letdowns.
You're bartering about how you don't want to feel pressure about you efficiency and on the same topic, you say you don't want to have to pause your gameplay and just cast continuously. Isn't that a dichotomy ?
disposalist said:I see what you're saying with the 'downtime' definition. I suppose my whole problem with the way EQ casters played was that their main role just assumed you liked a lot of forced inactivity. When I tried Monk in P99 EQ a few months back it was the *total* opposite. Long group sessions were literally exhausting.
Although we've seen casters sitting in Pantheon streams, we are only in Pre-Alpha and given Chris's comments about how Wizards won't spend all their time sat down I'm confident Pantheon won't have as much caster sitting as EQ did.
They can't just be reserving in-combat caster mobility for wizards... Can they?...
I get you've got quite a trauma here, and I understand, and feel TOO, that caster had too much downtime in EQ, as much as any non self healing class had too much too. But I don't want Pantheon to be "chaincast fest" like any modern MMO where you just pop whatever is up whenever it is, with "cooldown key abilities" used as soon as possible, and a filler chaincast every other time. I want the pace to matter, I want a wizard to be conservative with his mana unless he has a major regeneration cooldown close to come back, or he sees the healer's mana bleeding and his total nuke could change the ending of the fight.
That's what strategy I hope to see in pantheon, where casters are a powerfull and reliable force, that can adapt to the needs and pace of the group, while melee must be focused with a lower but steady dps.
Defector said:A warrior geared on par with his level should be able to solo a warrior NPC of the same level. The fight should be a 50/50 success rate if the player doesnt use any abilities, just straight white melee damage. Using few abilities, the warrior player should survive with almost zero health left and be required to rest for a full 60+seconds before they have health regenerated.
This should be the baseline for difficulty of game content.
With full health, and unloading his best abilities, the same warrior should be boarderline capable of barely soloing two enemies at once...
Sounds like an incredibly easy game that would be full of soloing.
Defector said:A warrior geared on par with his level should be able to solo a warrior NPC of the same level. The fight should be a 50/50 success rate if the player doesnt use any abilities, just straight white melee damage. Using few abilities, the warrior player should survive with almost zero health left and be required to rest for a full 60+seconds before they have health regenerated.
Why discount abilties? Maybe discount potions, procs and buffs so you can feel powerful. As you become higher in level things should be neccessary to feel overpowered so you're continually breaking limits.
Post deleted - not helpful, my apologies.
Defector said:A warrior geared on par with his level should be able to solo a warrior NPC of the same level. The fight should be a 50/50 success rate if the player doesnt use any abilities, just straight white melee damage. Using few abilities, the warrior player should survive with almost zero health left and be required to rest for a full 60+seconds before they have health regenerated.
This should be the baseline for difficulty of game content.
With full health, and unloading his best abilities, the same warrior should be boarderline capable of barely soloing two enemies at once...
I would say the same for other pure melee dps like the rogue and monk
Knights and hybrids have a slightly easier time soloing than the pure melee, and pure casters have the easiest time..
With wizards or summomers or necros being the only classes able to effectively solo without long downtimes between pulls.. but named should still be very very difficult for these classes.
my 2cp
I understand what you are saying there. A baseline of sorts without external influence should level the playing field or challenge. I think that falls into the balance side o the equation.
One great aspect of EQ1 was how random a fight could be. You could get lucky 10 times in a row soloing a blue con... then get stomped on the next guy lol. I'm not sure if devs designed much at all in EQ1 in terms of soloing but players found a way- exploring different mob types and zones, getting buffs from others, etc. I hope the same difficulty is present in PRotF.
Edit: I forgot to add in the medding part, oops.
I know there are some new ideas floating about, but I am content with (for soloing) melee classes med their hp after each fight. If they don't pop a squat to heal up, their next fight could be their last. No different than casters needing mana. For groups, you have healers to restore hp and fluffers.. err buffers to restore mana. All works out in the end ;)
Iksar said:Defector said:A warrior geared on par with his level should be able to solo a warrior NPC of the same level. The fight should be a 50/50 success rate if the player doesnt use any abilities, just straight white melee damage. Using few abilities, the warrior player should survive with almost zero health left and be required to rest for a full 60+seconds before they have health regenerated.
This should be the baseline for difficulty of game content.
With full health, and unloading his best abilities, the same warrior should be boarderline capable of barely soloing two enemies at once...
Sounds like an incredibly easy game that would be full of soloing.
No.. because of the 60 seconds they have to wait after a fight to regenerate. My description is basically how EQ was. The downtime can be avoided thanks to class synergy/abilities in a group.
MauvaisOeil said:disposalist said:1) Uneven split (hence my original subject title). Casters spend a *lot* of time on their arse. No, the solution is not to have warriors need to sit still as much, though that's what some jumped on lol.
What is the solution then ? To match some "realism", melee fighters could stack some endurance regen debuff due to exhaustion, but that would end up making long fights even more of a pain.
disposalist said:2) It's forced. There is no other option. I would like options. I (and others) have suggested some during the thread and now Joppa has come up with some for Wizards in the recent class reveal.
What are "options" ? There is no option. If you consider "giving the caster some way to actively regen his mana" then there is no other option left. If you give the option to regen passively by sitting, or actively by playing more, either the passive option will be useless because weaker, or the active on will be useless because requiring more play for the same results. Litteraly there is NO way to make an option or a choice of active versus semi active gameplay. Either everyone gets a pro active and permanent fighting style, either you cut it in half : melee get a pro active one, and casters get a semi-active one, because whatever you do, however you do it, giving the "choice" in the same class will only make a good choice versus a bad one.
disposalist said:3) The current option is boring (just sitting stationery) and though there is need for good balance and pace, it doesn't have to be boring.
Then what ? If what is boring to you, is quiet, quality and socializing time for another ? Just pick a melee and you're done, right ?
disposalist said:4) We possibly don't need as much downtime as we used to be in EQ? With voice chat, strategy and socialising can be done during the fighting and much quicker.
Probably not as much, for anyone. While medding was a pain for most casters, and an unreachable goal for hybrids, life regen for a lone melee was way more painfull as you had little way to improve it (don't start with funghi, who had a funghi except twinks ?). But does it need to go away ? Is mana meant to be a mindless jauge you empty with strong spells and fill with weak spells ? Is mana tactic, or dynamic ?
disposalist said:5) When downtime is 'caused' by the casters need to meditate, there is a pressure to be ultra mana efficient or you'll be 'letting down' the others, especially the non-casters. Any activity that 'wastes' mana is undesirable and attracts criticism of your play-style.
Beeing mana efficient is not a pressure, it's the BASE gameplay of any mana heavy class. What is this victimisation here ? When you pulled, did you have to be "efficient" in spawn checks and travell speed or could you just play at the pace you wanted, letting your group grind their teeth waiting for the next mob ? When you tanked, could you choose your pace depending of your will or mood, or did you have to be efficient ?
Everyone had to be efficient, melee had to be pro active, pullers had to adapt his pace to his group ability to manage mobs, tanks had to catch and keep mobs whatever the burst his dps brought, and healers & casters had to be the most mana efficient to allow the group to pull at the best pace possible withouth having letdowns.
You're bartering about how you don't want to feel pressure about you efficiency and on the same topic, you say you don't want to have to pause your gameplay and just cast continuously. Isn't that a dichotomy ?
disposalist said:I see what you're saying with the 'downtime' definition. I suppose my whole problem with the way EQ casters played was that their main role just assumed you liked a lot of forced inactivity. When I tried Monk in P99 EQ a few months back it was the *total* opposite. Long group sessions were literally exhausting.
Although we've seen casters sitting in Pantheon streams, we are only in Pre-Alpha and given Chris's comments about how Wizards won't spend all their time sat down I'm confident Pantheon won't have as much caster sitting as EQ did.
They can't just be reserving in-combat caster mobility for wizards... Can they?...
I get you've got quite a trauma here, and I understand, and feel TOO, that caster had too much downtime in EQ, as much as any non self healing class had too much too. But I don't want Pantheon to be "chaincast fest" like any modern MMO where you just pop whatever is up whenever it is, with "cooldown key abilities" used as soon as possible, and a filler chaincast every other time. I want the pace to matter, I want a wizard to be conservative with his mana unless he has a major regeneration cooldown close to come back, or he sees the healer's mana bleeding and his total nuke could change the ending of the fight.
That's what strategy I hope to see in pantheon, where casters are a powerfull and reliable force, that can adapt to the needs and pace of the group, while melee must be focused with a lower but steady dps.
I think this is coming down to speed of combat. We have all seen this before and it always ends up being a rather nasty mess in the form of nerfing and other terms caused by players not satisfied with the combat style and speed. Is that the games fault? No, it was designed as intended. The dynamics of the group always make up how the group fights and maintains efficiency of the combat flow. Mana regen, stamina and the ability to keep fighting always depends on how the group was equipped and class mechanics. The downtime was always to keep the flow of the fight realistic. Now that is a relative word if we use the older games as a reference. The push pull dynamics of a group one allows the players to keep a tactical appraisal of the fight and manage their respective abilities.
If the tank/War is allowed to go full tilt mob processor then the dynamic is broken. The healers are not able to keep up with that so that requires a bump in their timers. The cycle of timer tweaking continues and we still have people upset over that dynamic.
The main thing is if a group is manned correctly for the content the melee player should be able to focus on taking on the mob holding aggro and keeping the casters safe to continue fighting. With spells auras and other means of regenerating stamina or whatever the melee class uses should be fine.
The sitting during a fight is not something that I like to see however. I think it should be an option but there are many options to help with mana regen. Familiars, potions and spells. If I recall some mobs would release aggro and go straight for the sitting caster. That makes for an interesting encounter. I think VR is already looking at it and still trying to keep the old school game experience alive but the relentless drive to have fast combat is in my mind not what the game is about.
Ox
Defector said:No.. because of the 60 seconds they have to wait after a fight to regenerate. My description is basically how EQ was. The downtime can be avoided thanks to class synergy/abilities in a group.
Save for the part where in EQ you had to be twinked to pull that off from level 25+ for a SINGLE even con mob and then you'd have 10+ minutes of downtime as a warrior even with bind wound maxed for your level. But EQ is a bad example anyway because individual mobs were easy and didn't pose a threat to most any group, if Pantheon aims to really fulfill the group focus then each individual mob near player level should be a challenge for the group so much that getting two in many cases would equal death without CC or some kind to manage adds. If someone wants to toe to toe a creature then let it be against whatever the low blue con equivalent ends up being.
As for the meditation, I think it's going to be inevitable for it to happen during combat for any groups pushing maximum efficiency. Adding "alternate" means of mana regen in combat to me just equates to players having a personal itch they feel the need to scratch with the desire to always be pressing buttons.
Lets just go the DnD route and just have casters memorize X amount of spells that way they will have no need to sit during the fight!
Once you blow all your spells tho you'll have to find a place to sleep for 8 hours so you can rememorize those spells you lost :)
On a more serious note, lets remove medding from the game so you do not "regen" mana by medding. Make spell casters be more active to regen their mana. Do you think they carry around those heavy staves for looks? No! Make them have to hit mobs to get mana back. But Krugus, I'm a Druid and I don't like staves! No problem, you can have a special Scimitar instead! But Krugus, what if I don't want to melee to get my power back? No problem! Just jump up and down while running in circles! Gets the blood flowing and regens your power back!
Now we can have everyone rolling for Haste items since the faster you hit things with your staff faster little Jonny Magi will get his mojo back! So Little Jonny Magi will run around in circles while jumping in the air while spamming his auto attack! Sweet! I think I just discovered how they are going to make WarWizards in PRF !!
On a side note, I'm sure VR will come up with some cool and interesting spin on the old way of doing things but lets hope its not what I just typed above.....
Post deleted - not helpful, my apologies.
Venjenz said:Krugus said:On a side note, I'm sure VR will come up with some cool and interesting spin on the old way of doing things but lets hope its not what I just typed above.....
If the new majority on this forum is any indicator of the direction this game is headed, their "cool and interesting spin" will most likely be "do whatever World of Warcraft does, and call it different." That's what everyone seems to want, until they get it and decide why play a WoW clone when WoW is still out there and has more content?
I seem to remember World of Warcraft keeping people out of downtime by making it possible to perform their main role, constantly, throughout the entire fight. Healers would constantly cast heals at the tank whether or not the tank needed them. Mages would constantly cast frostfire bolt or whatever was the current meta, etc. If you sucked, you could use your wand, but that didn't help with mana regen, and the dps was so low it usually worked like Solist's Icy Wand in EQ; just for finishing things off.
What has been suggested in this thread is a form of "downtime" which can be referred to as doing something that is not your main role. Doing so 'may' help regen mana for your main role. Imagine a cleric still needing to cast heals when they are really needed, but then doing something else inbetween those heals, rather than either sitting OR simply casting another heal whether it is needed or not. This is already significantly different than the WoW scene I left behind.
Add in the idea that players will still probably need to med up mana for their "main role" inbetween fights, and you have the inbetween fight downtime we all know and love. In fact, this may be even more pronounced than it was in EQ, if VR keeps mana bars for physical classes.
So yea, I get it, you like sitting in a fight. It WAS an interesting and challenging mechanic to have to manage your mana or pay the ultimate price of being able to do absolutely nothing at the worst time. Unfortunately that doesn't fit in with Pantheon's desired gameplay, and VR wants to find ways to keep challenge/in combat choices and yet also keep players engaged while the fight is still going on.
Finally, this isn't the first time VR has mentioned that their fights are going to be extremely engaging:
From the Pantheon FAQ (on multiboxxing): "We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group."
Some people just can't approach this subject without hysterics and wild hyperbole can they?
No, making mana regen less boring is not asking to make everyone able to solo everything.
Yes, some people like the meditation mechanic. I don't suggest *forcing* another mechanic. I suggested *options* would be nice.
No, giving other options won't make others redundant. They aren't options if that's the case. Examples have been given that show potential risk/reward for alternatives and do not exclude medding.
Let me summarise (again) so maybe the thread discussion can continue without the OMGNO blurtings: -
Pace and balance is paramount. Anyone interested in Pantheon wants tactical not twitch. Sitting to meditate, especially mid-combat, is not the only way to instill pacing and balance, though.
Some people find meditating enjoyable. They can think about the combat and plan their next spell. They can chat and drink their coffee. I get that and I wouldn't want meditation to not be a viable option.
Some people find meditating boring. They find it an irritating forced lack of activity even though they are not a teen with ADHD. They can cope with the pace of the combat just like warriors and even monks did in EQ, so why force them to take a seat for half (or more) of the combat?
The reason for my original thread subject/title was to provoke discussion and to point out that one aspect of the issue is that warriors (and other melee classes) somehow *don't* see forced periods of inactivity as an effective/fun balance/pace mechanism. That was clearly a mistake as dedicated warrior types took it as an attack on their very souls...
Also, I didn't know everything about the issue when I made the thread. The whole point of a discussion forum is to develop thoughts isn't it? Please read the thread (at least most of it) before jumping up and down on it?
BeaverBiscuit said:Venjenz said:Krugus said:On a side note, I'm sure VR will come up with some cool and interesting spin on the old way of doing things but lets hope its not what I just typed above.....
If the new majority on this forum is any indicator of the direction this game is headed, their "cool and interesting spin" will most likely be "do whatever World of Warcraft does, and call it different." That's what everyone seems to want, until they get it and decide why play a WoW clone when WoW is still out there and has more content?
I seem to remember World of Warcraft keeping people out of downtime by making it possible to perform their main role, constantly, throughout the entire fight. Healers would constantly cast heals at the tank whether or not the tank needed them. Mages would constantly cast frostfire bolt or whatever was the current meta, etc. If you sucked, you could use your wand, but that didn't help with mana regen, and the dps was so low it usually worked like Solist's Icy Wand in EQ; just for finishing things off.
What has been suggested in this thread is a form of "downtime" which can be referred to as doing something that is not your main role. Doing so 'may' help regen mana for your main role. Imagine a cleric still needing to cast heals when they are really needed, but then doing something else inbetween those heals, rather than either sitting OR simply casting another heal whether it is needed or not. This is already significantly different than the WoW scene I left behind.
Add in the idea that players will still probably need to med up mana for their "main role" inbetween fights, and you have the inbetween fight downtime we all know and love. In fact, this may be even more pronounced than it was in EQ, if VR keeps mana bars for physical classes.
So yea, I get it, you like sitting in a fight. It WAS an interesting and challenging mechanic to have to manage your mana or pay the ultimate price of being able to do absolutely nothing at the worst time. Unfortunately that doesn't fit in with Pantheon's desired gameplay, and VR wants to find ways to keep challenge/in combat choices and yet also keep players engaged while the fight is still going on.
Finally, this isn't the first time VR has mentioned that their fights are going to be extremely engaging:
From the Pantheon FAQ (on multiboxxing): "We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group."
You get it, BB, though I *would* suggest it's possible even in your 'main role' to manage mana without the "sitting down" part. I'm not suggesting resource management isn't wanted, or that tactical pace isn't desirable or that downtime isn't necessary (because I want all those things), I'm simple suggesting sitting down is a dull way (to me and some others) to do it and shouldn't be the *only* way.
I almost mentioned the boxing argument myself, earlier. It does indeed tend to imply that there won't be much 'sitting down' in combat at least. If there was time to do that then boxing would surely be viable.
For me, at least, sitting down meditating, standing and casting a heal, sitting down again, repeat is not "so much to do".
If you take some of my suggestions, a cleric in group combat would look more like: -
Ok, I'm low on mana, do I: Start my battle hymn and start pounding on the enemy to regain mana? I might take damage and end up needing to heal myself, but then I could use the group heal which is more efficient...
Or do I: Start my mana chant so I can move to the back of the party because there's AoEs going off from that monster that keeps bouncing around and that keeps catching me. I'll get less mana back but I can keep mobile and avoid that AoE so I'll get more back really.
Or do I: Sit and meditate because everything is under control and meditation is the most efficient if I'm sure I'm safe and won't draw attention.
Or do I: Plant my holy staff which gives me some mana at the same time as performing a slow small AoE heal because the whole party is hurt and though it gets less mana back, it's more efficient. Of course I draw more aggro and if I get hit it will stun us all, but I think it's safe enough.
Or do I: Use my contact/proximity heal risking getting close to the combat, but allowing me to regain mana at the same time as single target healing, though if I am interrupted I will *lose* mana.
Or do I....
There are just SO MANY possibilities that would add to the tactical choices a cleric (or any caster) could be making and do *not* need to break the pace or balance.