disposalist said:I really shouldn't have stated my subject in the way I did, huh? You warriors are being kinda prickly. If you've read the thread, surely you can see the suggestion isn't so much that warriors should be equally 'hindered' by 'meditating' but more that casters could perhaps be balanced in a way that makes them more dynamic, like warriors (and any other non mana-restricted class).
As much as I ask "why don't warriors have to med?" the point really is "why does the med mechanic have to be so dull?" or even "why do some classes have built in down time and others don't?"
Why, 20 years after EQ did it, is Pantheon thinking that casters still need to be balanced by forcing periods of total inactivity? Especially when other games have managed not to? I accept that downtime is a good thing for the social side of the game, but why are we still relying on the tired old blunt/dull tool of forced meditation to provide it?
Now, I accept that some other games have managed it, but have also damaged other aspects, like distinct class roles and interdependency. Does that mean it's just out-of-the-question?
As I say above, I'd be happy with some (less effective than warriors) auto-attack and some limited movement and activity while regaining mana, but there may be lots of ways to remove traditional meditation without ruining the balance, feel, etc of claster classes.
I played EQ2 for a long time, and it was balanced great. When a TLP server came out (Stormhold) I decided to give it a whirl. Unfortunately, there were certain changes to the game over the 7-8 years after I quit that could not be reversed, and one of them was an "auto attack" feature for mages. It's basically exactly what you are asking for. It ruined that game, at least in my opinion. Instead of putting DPS/Haste mods on rangers/assassins/brigands/swashbucklers, people were putting them on wizards/warlocks/conjurors/illusionists. The most powerful melee classes in the game were almost made irrelevant because casters were able to beat the hell out of things with their wands while simultaneously retaining their magical prowess. I didn't play EQ1 so I am not super familiar with the pains of meditation. In EQ2, resource management was shared between all classes. If you didn't want to go OOM, you would generally put a bard or enchanter in your group. In some cases, you would do both.
I think mana batteries are an important aspect of the support role. This doesn't mean that some classes don't also have some sort of mana-related ability ... conjurors had shards they could give to the raid that were sacrificed for mana. Necros gave hearts. Defilers used some sort of spirit tap. Some classes were more self reliant than others and that was ultimately a factor with how you balanced your groups/raids. There were also consumables you could use such as mana potions, and the famous "manastone" was a super important heritage quest reward. Some weapons/armor in the game could proc mana regeneration and these were highly sought after. I guess my point is this ... it comes down to progression. Maybe there will be situational gear that players might use to help alleviate their mana woes. Maybe colored mana, signets of synergy, or the living codex will somehow be related.
Anyway, to answer your questions specifically:
"Why does the med mechanic have to be so dull?"
I don't think it does. We don't know squat about planned combat mechanics at this point. I'm sure there will be plenty of alternatives for resource recovery, and would imagine that "meditation" would be more of an innate utility that gives each caster something which is better than nothing. Hopefully situational gear, support classes, consumables (not only instant ones like potions, but more emphasis on high quality food/drink), and other features (colored mana, living codex, signets of synergy) will all be tied into making resource recovery a less dull experience. But don't expect anything like this out of the gate ... the same way you start off with no bags and horrible movement speed, mana regen should be a pain. As you grow in power, more options will become available. That's what I would guess, anyway.
"Why do some classes have built in down time and others don't?"
This isn't true at all. Imagine what kind of downtime groups would have if they didn't have a healer? Tank HP is a resource just like caster mana. I understand that not every group is going to have a bard and enchanter in it, which in my opinion, are the "mana healers." Try getting a group going with a tank and a bunch of melees with no healer and see how much downtime you experience. It would be worse than a full group of casters by a landslide.
Anyway, sorry if I am coming off prickly. I see plenty of merit in your ideas and suggestions but I think it's way too early for anybody to be concerned about meditation at this point. To be fair, you started your intro post off with "Why don't warriors need to rest?" and then proceeded to question why warriors don't have the same downtime as casters, and even proposed that warriors should have to sing songs that would allow them to regain mana but also prevented them from being able to use special abilities. I just don't want the wheel to be reinvented here. I don't want to see auto attacking casters (It ruined EQ2) and I definitely don't want to see meditation being imposed on other classes "just because." Mana regen is just a part of the game. Why does running through a cave without invisiblity have to be so dangerous for a warrior? One could argue that it leads to a "dull" experience because warriors can't venture solo like casters can. I think you chose the wrong class to balance your argument against. Warriors are warriors ... comparing them to casters, in almost any way, just seems like a real stretch to me.
oneADseven said:"Why do some classes have built in down time and others don't?"
This isn't true at all. Imagine what kind of downtime groups would have if they didn't have a healer? Tank HP is a resource just like caster mana. I understand that not every group is going to have a bard and enchanter in it, which in my opinion, are the "mana healers." Try getting a group going with a tank and a bunch of melees with no healer and see how much downtime you experience. It would be worse than a full group of casters by a landslide.
I feel like part of the confusion in this discussion is that people are looking at it from different perspectives. Being a "group first" game, balance should be centered around group play first. Balancing classes in other scenarios, solo or raid settings, while still important should be a secondary concern.
That being said, when we talk about balance in a group setting we are refering to a group that contains the holy trinity...tank/healer/cc. That is what content is tuned for. To say "Try getting a group going with a tank and a bunch of melees with no healer" isn't really a valid point imo.
My personal view is that mana users should absolutely have down time to med while non mana users should have little or no down time. But that has to be balanced with their output.
Often times, in other games, downtime is not being taken into account when being balanced.
I didn't want to get into specific hypothetical situations, but maybe it will help with the point: Basically, as far as damage is concerned, a mana user may do X damage over a 1 min period but then has to sit and med for 1 min to regain that mana back in order to do X damage again. A non mana using class (who is supposed to be balanced to do similar damage as the previously mentioned class) needs to do the same total X damage over those 2 mins including the down time. Often times downtime is not taken into account when balancing classes.
I think we have likely all seen this imbalance in other games.
I'm not saying this will be a concern, we have no idea how classes will balance out. Just something to take into consideration that has been imbalanced in the past.
philo said:oneADseven said:"Why do some classes have built in down time and others don't?"
This isn't true at all. Imagine what kind of downtime groups would have if they didn't have a healer? Tank HP is a resource just like caster mana. I understand that not every group is going to have a bard and enchanter in it, which in my opinion, are the "mana healers." Try getting a group going with a tank and a bunch of melees with no healer and see how much downtime you experience. It would be worse than a full group of casters by a landslide.
I feel like part of the confusion in this discussion is that people are looking at it from different perspectives. Being a "group first" game, balance should be centered around group play first. Balancing classes in other scenarios, solo or raid settings, while still important should be a secondary concern.
That being said, when we talk about balance in a group setting we are refering to a group that contains the holy trinity...tank/healer/cc. That is what content is tuned for. To say "Try getting a group going with a tank and a bunch of melees with no healer" isn't really a valid point imo.
My personal view is that mana users should absolutely have down time to med while non mana users should have little or no down time. But that has to be balanced with their output.
Often times, in other games, downtime is not being taken into account when being balanced.
I didn't want to get into specific hypothetical situations, but maybe it will help with the point: Basically, as far as damage is concerned, a mana user may do X damage over a 1 min period but then has to sit and med for 1 min to regain that mana back in order to do X damage again. A non mana using class (who is supposed to be balanced to do similar damage as the previously mentioned class) needs to do the same total X damage over those 2 mins including the down time. Often times downtime is not taken into account when balancing classes.
I think we have likely all seen this imbalance in other games.
I'm not saying this will be a concern, we have no idea how classes will balance out. Just something to take into consideration that has been imbalanced in the past.
Pantheon is using a quaternity (Tank/Healer/DPS/Control) but "Support" is arguably another role, even if it's secondary for some classes. My point was that a group of melees without a healer would be similar to a group of casters without a mana battery and that's why I referenced them as "mana healers." It just so happens that healers are traditionally considered a requirement for groups whereas mana batteries are not. I think they should be, at least if you expect to have a session with sustained mana. It's the same concept either way you look at it.
Hyperium said: Its not just damage. Many things go into balancing like a tank's higher armor guards their higher hitpoints longer allowing their damage output over time to add up, much longer than the time a casters has before it's low armor and low hitpoints survive, with casting time, to get a few spells off. It's all speculation and perceived experiences from other mmos that's just wishful discussions for now.
I think it is understood that balance isn't just about damage. That is why I was reluctant to use a hypothetical. Damage numbers are just easy to use as an example.
oneADseven said:philo said:oneADseven said:"Why do some classes have built in down time and others don't?"
This isn't true at all. Imagine what kind of downtime groups would have if they didn't have a healer? Tank HP is a resource just like caster mana. I understand that not every group is going to have a bard and enchanter in it, which in my opinion, are the "mana healers." Try getting a group going with a tank and a bunch of melees with no healer and see how much downtime you experience. It would be worse than a full group of casters by a landslide.
I feel like part of the confusion in this discussion is that people are looking at it from different perspectives. Being a "group first" game, balance should be centered around group play first. Balancing classes in other scenarios, solo or raid settings, while still important should be a secondary concern.
That being said, when we talk about balance in a group setting we are refering to a group that contains the holy trinity...tank/healer/cc. That is what content is tuned for. To say "Try getting a group going with a tank and a bunch of melees with no healer" isn't really a valid point imo.
My personal view is that mana users should absolutely have down time to med while non mana users should have little or no down time. But that has to be balanced with their output.
Often times, in other games, downtime is not being taken into account when being balanced.
I didn't want to get into specific hypothetical situations, but maybe it will help with the point: Basically, as far as damage is concerned, a mana user may do X damage over a 1 min period but then has to sit and med for 1 min to regain that mana back in order to do X damage again. A non mana using class (who is supposed to be balanced to do similar damage as the previously mentioned class) needs to do the same total X damage over those 2 mins including the down time. Often times downtime is not taken into account when balancing classes.
I think we have likely all seen this imbalance in other games.
I'm not saying this will be a concern, we have no idea how classes will balance out. Just something to take into consideration that has been imbalanced in the past.
Pantheon is using a quaternity (Tank/Healer/DPS/Control) but "Support" is arguably another role, even if it's secondary for some classes. My point was that a group of melees without a healer would be similar to a group of casters without a mana battery and that's why I referenced them as "mana healers." It just so happens that healers are traditionally considered a requirement for groups whereas mana batteries are not. I think they should be, at least if you expect to have a session with sustained mana. It's the same concept either way you look at it.
I don't think mana regen is even in the same ballpark as healing as far as necessity. To try to compare the 2 seems like apples an oranges.
Encounters are tuned to groups that have healers. Mana regen bonuses in the amount we have seen in games isn't enough of a factor. If we could refill mana at the same rate a healer can refill a health bar you would be totally correct.
Another part of this conversation is that it is the melee, who this kind of thing doesn't affect, who may be the most vocal opposition in this thread. I know you are a Ogre War 187 hah. I know you don't understand the casters pain ;)
Yeah I guess it's just a difference of experience. I mentioned how in EQ2 all classes had to be cognizant of their mana. An OOM tank was a bigger issue than an OOM caster. There were plenty of fights that did complete mana drains so we had to set up rotations of enchanters that could pump mana to a specific player on demand. Without mana, a tank couldn't taunt or use their defensive cooldowns. Also, I have played plenty of other classes than just warrior. I have always mained a warrior but I have plenty of experience with healers, casters, and other melee classes. I don't understand the "EQ1 Pain" but I am quite familiar with the pain of casters in general. As far as whether or not mana regen is in the same ballpark of healing, again, I guess it depends on the game you are playing. In EQ2, mana was arguably more important than health because at the end of the day, mana is what preserved that health to begin with. You could have 100k health in a game designed for 10k and you would get destroyed by bosses if you didn't have a mana supply to keep the tank filled. That's how I look at this -- mana is an extension of health in the sense that healers trade their own mana for the health of other players. This isn't apples and oranges ... it's raspberries and blueberries.
oneADseven said:You could have 100k health in a game designed for 10k and you would get destroyed by bosses if you didn't have a mana supply to keep the tank filled. That's how I look at this -- mana is an extension of health in the sense that healers trade their own mana for the health of other players. This isn't apples and oranges ... it's raspberries and blueberries.
Fair enough. They are tied together. I get that. If all the fights were like you mentioned...against mobs that did complete mana drain, it would definitely be even more of an issue.
Mana and health regen rates are both important. Having downtime to regen either is not bad. I find downtime absolutely necessary for a number of reasons. Just that the down time should be taken into account when balance is being considered. Sometimes it seems like it isn't (or isn't weighted heavily enough if it is).
@oneADseven I don't think you were being prickly and I much appreciated the long, considered responses, thanks!
I played EQ2 for quite a long time, but it was a long time ago - I only remember EQ better because I recently played Project1999 for a few months.
EQ2 did go some way toward 'equalising' the class mechanics, though I totally take your point about the mage auto-attack. It didn't *have* to over-balance things though - that was bad design - of course you wouldn't want to see warriors becoming anything like obselete or even be challenged in their class role. Caster auto-attack should simply be *some* kind of contribution that adds to the colour and the tactics (you would have to maintain line of sight if you want it to work, but that would put you are some risk of meditation interruption etc) but should definitely be restricted (haste shouldn't speed up non-physical things like wands firing, for example and would only work on melee).
In response to HP acting just like mana as a 'downtime' cause, I know what you are saying, but that isn't what happened in EQ and doesn't seem to be in Pantheon so far. I agree with @philo that I would expect and want VR to consider group content and balance way above all other situations. In groups, warriors lose HP, the cleric heals them and the warrior fights on. Cleric loses mana they have to sit down and do nothing. Even if the warrior is restricted in what he can then pull back to the group because it's not safe to continue with a cleric without mana, he still doesn't have to be utterly inactive and prone. He can be carefully scouting for danger or crafting or gathering or looting or repairing armour or whatever.
Whether you consider the group downtime to be as a result of the warriors health or the clerics mana, only one of them ends up sat on their bum doing nothing.
I simply am suggesting there must be another way to restrict the power of the caster without forcing them to do something that is essentially dull like meditating.
As I've said, it wouldn't even have to be something that effects balance - just make it so that when you meditate you can still move (even if slowly) or you can still eat or drink or craft or whatever, just *something* other than plop down in place.
People are pretending that every last thing you do in this game is going to be with a group, and it's nonsense. You will be all over the world by yourself or with just a friend.
Imagine being a warrior and running over a sand dune into a Sand Giant. You're dead, while the druid and shaman and bard just laugh at the giant and run by. The pet classes stop and kill it. The wizard already translocated to the other side of the zone, the enchanter was in illusion sand giant and didn't aggro, etc, etc, etc. People need to think about the entirety of the game, THAT is what they have to balance, life in the world, not just combat.
Imagine how much easier it is for a class to do the HOURS of legwork that goes into many quests since they can cast spells. The poor casters have to med to regain mana after saving 25 minutes of running because they can gate? That lucky warrior is running all the way here, he's DOING something while I have sit and med, boo-hoo! Like I said, the manner and extent to which people are underestimating the "day to day" life in the game and instead solely focusing on combat are being extremely myopic.
There is a huge vast part of the game, including soloing, travel of all sorts, small groups, questing, crafting that casters have a TREMENDOUS advantage.
Krixus said:People are pretending that every last thing you do in this game is going to be with a group, and it's nonsense. You will be all over the world by yourself or with just a friend.
Imagine being a warrior and running over a sand dune into a Sand Giant. You're dead, while the druid and shaman and bard just laugh at the giant and run by. The pet classes stop and kill it. The wizard already translocated to the other side of the zone, the enchanter was in illusion sand giant and didn't aggro, etc, etc, etc. People need to think about the entirety of the game, THAT is what they have to balance, life in the world, not just combat.
Imagine how much easier it is for a class to do the HOURS of legwork that goes into many quests since they can cast spells. The poor casters have to med to regain mana after saving 25 minutes of running because they can gate? That lucky warrior is running all the way here, he's DOING something while I have sit and med, boo-hoo! Like I said, the manner and extent to which people are underestimating the "day to day" life in the game and instead solely focusing on combat are being extremely myopic.
There is a huge vast part of the game, including soloing, travel of all sorts, small groups, questing, crafting that casters have a TREMENDOUS advantage.
You're totally assuming classes and mechanics will be exactly like EQ. That's pretty much exactly what I am wanting to talk about. They don't have to be, do they.
Also, even in your EQ example, a cleric would be just as dead as a warrior. His/her limitation would be mana and the fact that they simply can't output enough damage before running out. The warrior perhaps couldn't output enough damage before running out of health. So, same difference.
Though, that warrior would no doubt have gotten a SoW before he went on his trip and during his run by the giant survived a hit or two before out distancing it. An incautious druid would get smashed into the ground by the giant in just a brief run-by, SoW or not.
Yes, all classes have limitations, though you appear to assume all casters have massive advantage over non-casters and somehow deserve to have to sit stationery a lot as some kind of balancing 'punishment' and, anyway, no one is suggesting caster power shouldn't be balanced *at all* just that it doesn't have to be such a restrictive and dull mechanic.
No, the game shouldn't be balanced for soloing - in my experience the vast majority of time was spent in groups fighting monsters - but that doesn't mean soloing needs to be as painful for some classes as it used to be in EQ. Perhaps rather than lash out at casters wanting meditation to not be so boring you might want to suggest less irritating restrictions for warriors or that they shouldn't be so devestatingly inferior to casters? (though, they aren't, are they).
Pantheon isn't EQ and it doesn't have to have the exact same mechanics. Balance - even via restrictions - can still be interesting.
I don't view meditation as a punishment. If you want mana regen, grab a bard or an enchanter. It's not like warriors just naturally regen a ton of HP by themselves. A warrior needing a healer to regen their HP is pretty similar to a caster needing a support class to regen their MP. If a warrior doesn't have a healer, they would be sitting on their rump to regen HP the same as casters do for their MP. I'm sure there will be other classes outside of bard/enchanter that can increase mana regen for their allies, and assume there will also be consumables, quest rewards, mana-proc gear, etc that players can aquire during their adventures. Meditation is not the only way to regen mana. Is it a dull mechanic? Sure, but it's needed for balance, and it's factored into risk vs reward.
I think we all want a challenging game and my guess is that if casters could run around while regening mana from meditation they would be able to trivialize content. A lot of people mentioned that the game should be balanced around groups. The "support role" is extremely important in groups ... so again, grab yourself a support class that will alleviate your mana woes and you're in good shape. Bards/Enchanters have always been desirable classes for groups for that very reason and if all casters had a super reliable form of mana regen (that could be cast on the move) it would diminish the value that the mana battery role brings to the table. I didn't play EQ1 but bards/enchanters have been extremely important in every MMO I have played because of their ability to boost resources.
As someone who has played a warrior for a long long time, I am quite familiar with the limitations and restrictions of my class. The lack of solo viability has always been a painpoint. The inability to adventure through dangerous areas while solo could also be frustrating. At the end of the day, though, these are some of the "costs" of playing a warrior. One thing that can be done is to allow specialization to add some extra flavor -- this is where FFXI shined the greatest. I couldn't do jack on my warrior for the longest time but eventually I unlocked the paladin and ninja classes and was able to create some useful sub-class combinations. Playing my 75 Paladin / 37 Ninja combo felt extremely rewarding because I finally earned the ability to solo more efficiently.
Maybe something like that will happen for casters. Maybe you can level up a second and third time through progeny and somehow specialize your character in a way where you have increased mana regen. We have only seen the very earliest stages of combat so far. Itemization isn't fleshed out, abilities/spells aren't fleshed out, and we haven't even scratched the surface on the living codex, colored mana, progeny, or situational gear. Just remember that we most likely aren't going to see anything "special" in the streams. You know, the rare abilities/spells that can be earned at the bottom of a dungeon or atop a tower? Memorable items ... advanced features, etc, etc, etc. Pantheon is evolving the genre but you have to start with the basics and that's all we have seen so far.
Anyway, I apologize for going off on a mini-tangent @Disposalist. I understand your concerns ... I just want to point out that I think they are well documented and that VR will have something in store for casters to make the game challenging, fun, and engaging. Just remember that many pain points are an opportunity for some form of progression. I am hoping that Pantheon will be a game I can play for years ... if I were a caster, I would be willing to reroll through progeny multiple times if it meant I would have slightly better mana efficiency. I would traverse the world in search of artifacts that could be useful during combat. More than anything ... I would keep my friends list stacked with other players. If healers are the red lifeblood of an MMO, mana batteries are the blue lifeblood.
You can't "always" grab a bard or an enchanter.
Unless you have a hangout where people are throwing out buffs ..like in the Plane of Knowledge, not all groups are composed of enchanters or bards as members either. I don't have a problem tempering my nukes or managing my mana, but if the puller comes back with more mobs than we can handle..what with root and other spells cast by the caster with the nukes, mana bar doesn't hold up for long.
Meanwhile the melee are still merrily whacking away with no downtime and no drawbacks.
Again the fizzles and resists that also eat mana, also reduce your mana no matter how good you are at managing. The reason I am in this thread is I "want" to be a useful member of the group...not having to constantly sit on my fanny because its some Dev's conviction that I must be punished because I am a caster.
There has to be a better way than what was invented 18 years ago, at least we don't have the meditation spell book taking up our whole screen, while we med.
I acquired some acute hearing for the pitter patter of large feet coming to punish me because I was sitting down to med.
Let's hope VR has better balancing..and better ideas.
Mana ratio to resists and fizzles, SHOULD be examined, yes I still expect to "manage" my mana, but I don't expect to get 3 or 4 large fizzles in a row ...that eat my whole mana bar.
If we are going to give feedback...this is the opportune time. The Devs can mull it over and decide what they want to do with that right? Just because we say something or feedback something...doesn't mean the Dev team is there to fulfill our every wish and dream. But it doesn't hurt to bring it up. :)
Cana
Can't always find a healer or a tank, either. I remember waiting around an extra hour plus before committing to a session if I couldn't find a bard or enchanter for my group and I don't even play a caster. For what it's worth, as a warrior, I would love to have a meditate like ability that allowed me to sit and regen my HP. That's better than what we get in most games.
Enitzu said:I think you're missing a lot of the points made. Warriors can not, ever, solo.
Who says? That Pantheon doesn't have to take all the painful mechanics from EQ is exactly what I'm saying and perhaps warriors not being able to solo is one of those along with medding being so dull.
Enitzu said:Warriors are completely dependant on others. There is no caster in the game that has that much of a disability. Every single caster has the ability to solo pretty effectively.
I mained a cleric to high level in EQ. They were awful solo. But again, you're assuming Pantheon should be just like EQ in that regard. I hope it isn't.
Enitzu said:Warriors, or any other melee, also have much less damage per stamina in comparision to casters dmg per mana. If they were to cause stamina regen to be even remotely close to mana regen then they would have to drastically increase the dmg to stamina ratio.
And, of course, you wouldn't simply make stamina need meditation to regain and not change the way it is used in the first place. No change could be in isolation and expect not to mess up balance.
Enitzu said:Point three, if stamina regen is reduced, then the level of downtime greatly increases. It's not a bad thing if it's already low but I find that highly doubtful. This would also effectively kill any thought of chain pulling. More than likely you'd find many dungeons where you couldn't even progress through because you simply couldn't kill enough mobs before respawns caught up to you. This is the entire reason that the best groups were always balanced between melee and casters. Casters provide higher dmg but melee could supply a constant level of sustained damage while the caster were medding.
Chain pulling was as much if not more about being about to sustain healing, I think. As long as, by the time the warrior (or whoever - more likely a monk) returned mobs to the group, the cleric had mana to heal, chain pulling is possible. If the cleric's mana regen is changed, chain-pulling might even be easier.
Making meditation less of a dull mechanic doesn't have to effect rates of regain at all. Making the warrior meditate would, sure, if they were the puller, but they don't have to be, or you could make pulling abilities, whatever those are, not be dependent on stamina. There's lot of ways to achieve these things.
Enitzu said:For the sake of RP gameplay, your thoughts make a lot of sense. But implementing them would fundamentality change the entire game.
Well, I wouldn't expect my half-baked ideas to be anything but points for discussion. The clever folks at VR would know how much and how to implement these things. All I would want them to do is think about how dull a mechanic forced meditation is and maybe think about how that might be improved.
People are reacting like I want the whole of combat changed to accomodate casters. No so. Balance doesn't have to be messed up at all in order to make something like medding a less dull mechanic.
oneADseven said:Can't always find a healer or a tank, either. I remember waiting around an extra hour plus before committing to a session if I couldn't find a bard or enchanter for my group and I don't even play a caster. For what it's worth, as a warrior, I would love to have a meditate like ability that allowed me to sit and regen my HP. That's better than what we get in most games.
Yeah, why not? That's pretty much what my subject line is, though some saw it as a negative straight away...
If warriors could 'med' for faster health regain it would certainly give them more sympathy for the casters.
I still say, though, if warriors *did* get some kind of enhanced regen, making them sit prone would be over-the-top, just like it is for casters. An interruptable channeled skill where you could still do some limited movement and could craft/mend/gather/etc would be great.
The warrior would be doing a kata or rejuvenating callisthenics while the casters slip into a trance of do yoga. Same mechanic, different flavour, not boring.
disposalist said:I still say, though, if warriors *did* get some kind of enhanced regen, making them sit prone would be over-the-top, just like it is for casters. An interruptable channeled skill where you could still do some limited movement and could craft/mend/gather/etc would be great.
The warrior would be doing a kata or rejuvenating callisthenics while the casters slip into a trance of do yoga. Same mechanic, different flavour, not boring.
As someone who plays a healer main in every mmo, I really like this idea. I find the idea of sitting on my bum through half a fight, and then again between fights, as an antiquated and completely boring mechanic. I don't really want to leave prints of my rear over half the kingdom.
Being able to do something actively to regenerate my mana, even just the appearance of being active, while the underlying regen doesn't change, would be a little more entertaining. Actually affecting the regeneration rate, maybe by occasionally clicking a button that adds a little twist to whatever exercise I'm doing, would be even more interesting but is something I would hope would become available as I leveled and became more skilled overall.
Not sure I see the point of giving warriors down time if the game is balance around group play. The warrior has to wait for his casters anyway, what does it matter if he is sitting or jumping around?
How, in your abbreviated opinion, does adding a meditate feature for warriors add to the core philosophical ideas the dev team has shared with us?
If we can't clearly, concicely state how it improves game mechanics, community, or fun then it's a boondoggle.
Xbachs said:Not sure I see the point of giving warriors down time if the game is balance around group play. The warrior has to wait for his casters anyway, what does it matter if he is sitting or jumping around?
How, in your abbreviated opinion, does adding a meditate feature for warriors add to the core philosophical ideas the dev team has shared with us?
If we can't clearly, concicely state how it improves game mechanics, community, or fun then it's a boondoggle.
Adding a meditate for warriors could give them a way to recover health, which is a major pain, apparently (if we assume that warriors will be like EQ, which we kinda shouldn't, but what else can we do?).
It would also give them an understanding for what casters endure.
But, if you read all my comments I hope you'd see my point really is: can we make medding more interesting or even replace it?
The whole "Why don't warriors need to med?" subject was meant to prompt a questioning of the med mechanic, in general, not a suggestion that warriors deserve an equally punishing or dull mechanic.
I have to say, you exemplify the point in your comment, though. "The warrior has to wait for his caster anyway, what does it matter if he is sitting or jumping around?". Well, yeah, so why do you care if he has to sit? Why do you care if the caster doesn't have to sit, as long as there is some mechanic requiring downtime and balancing their power?
I'm simply suggesting that the traditional sit-still-and-med mechanic is an uninteresting way of providing downtime and balance and I'm hoping for suggestions and ideas.
I should have worded it differently, apparently.
Actually sitting as a melee, or any class for that matter, regened health faster than standing in EQ1. So, without a healer, a melee would be forced to sit and "med" between fights as well.
disposalist said:Why do you care if the caster doesn't have to sit, as long as there is some mechanic requiring downtime and balancing their power?
That is a good point. Meditating doesn't have to be sitting. Make warriors sit still or liberate the casters?
The dev team has made it clear we will all be sitting to med at launch, which is totally fine with me. I am excited to see the world they are building.
Also, isnt the bandage skill usually a warrior HP regen mechanic that requires them to stay still?
Agree with Xbachs as he sums it up nicely.
As for Casters (or classes with support etc) getting involved with non mana skills .. up close and personal. Well the main benifit of being a caster is you outside of Rampage/Reposte/Flurry/AE range in both solo and group/raid play. When mobs can singly hit you for > than your HP pool in a single round.. even if you survive the round then your wasting Healer time/Mana (Aka Tank HP)..., a distracted healer = a dead tank = a wiped group..so be careful what you wish for :) .
Personally I think the higher damage DD/DOTs should be touch range or scaled on range.. that way combat and soloing is more complex (fun) and not just root/snare and DD/DOT until dead while being essentially untouchable by the MOB. EQ tried to introduce mechanisms to limit soloing such as Summon etc but they were ineffectuall and generally it was easier/quicker and loot benificial to solo.
Overall I think the game should be balanced around it being significanlty more benificial to Group than to Solo.. overpowering Root/Snare/fear/charm/pet etc classes with rapid Mana regen removes a large proportion of the available population to group as people will gravitate towards the easiest classes to solo for XP/Loot. If you get ALL the XP from a solo kill and not XP/6 and the same chance for rare drops then people will solo preferentially and use the classes that can do that.
Hopefully Pantheon doesnt go down the pure "cold war" route of Tank/Healer mitigation Vs continually exponentially increasing MOB DPS.. ruins the combat IMO and ends up requiring perfect group makeups (mainly a fantastic Tank and Healer to keep them up.. a dead tank = wipe usually). EQ had stages where the classes that were not MT were killed instantly with zero time to react as the MOB DPS got so high to deal with improved Healing/Tanking, plenty of experience in the devs to not make this mistake again I think though or at least limit it so it doesnt become silly.
I don't play Main Tanks but IMO they are the most important class and actually the hardest to be good at as if they suck then your group sucks period.. so respect to the MTs out there :).
Xbachs said:disposalist said:Why do you care if the caster doesn't have to sit, as long as there is some mechanic requiring downtime and balancing their power?
That is a good point. Meditating doesn't have to be sitting. Make warriors sit still or liberate the casters?
The dev team has made it clear we will all be sitting to med at launch, which is totally fine with me. I am excited to see the world they are building.
Also, isnt the bandage skill usually a warrior HP regen mechanic that requires them to stay still?
I'm not going to be boycotting Pantheon if the sit-med mechanic is in, that's for sure! Hehe. I just wanted to chat about alternatives, is all.
Good point with the bandage skill, yeah, also @Fulton with the sitting to recover health faster. If I remember correctly, that just never happened in a group, though - can't think why, as it would have saved the cleric medding so much.
If people want to just discuss how to make the meditation system better, there is an existing thread on that. Joppa commented that he was interested in hearing people's opinions on the matter, but that was a while back and things may be much further moved along in the development process. Couldn't hurt to weigh in if you want to discuss the topic generally instead of specifically discussing warriors vs. casters.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4678/meditation/view/page/1
rocketmagnet said:As for Casters (or classes with support etc) getting involved with non mana skills .. up close and personal...
Clerics in plate might have a default attack that requires actual melee range, but I imagined it more as just requiring line of sight (which can be dangerous enough) and being a wand/staff/holy symbol range thing, hehe. Warriors and their buddies are kings of melee and so they should be.
rocketmagnet said:Personally I think the higher damage DD/DOTs should be touch range or scaled on range.. that way combat and soloing is more complex (fun) and not just root/snare and DD/DOT until dead while being essentially untouchable by the MOB.
Very interesting thought. It certainly always seemed jarringly weird and actually annoying when druids would quad-kite something you couldn't have soloed one of and bards would pull every monster in the zone while everyone else twiddled their thumbs.
rocketmagnet said:EQ tried to introduce mechanisms to limit soloing such as Summon etc but they were ineffectuall and generally it was easier/quicker and loot benificial to solo.
Summoning mobs was just weird and not a very good way to approach the solution, no, I agree.
rocketmagnet said:Overall I think the game should be balanced around it being significanlty more benificial to Group than to Solo.. overpowering Root/Snare/fear/charm/pet etc classes with rapid Mana regen removes a large proportion of the available population to group as people will gravitate towards the easiest classes to solo for XP/Loot. If you get ALL the XP from a solo kill and not XP/6 and the same chance for rare drops then people will solo preferentially and use the classes that can do that.
Definitely, though we are moving away from my subject a bit. Group balance has to be king.
rocketmagnet said:Hopefully Pantheon doesnt go down the pure "cold war" route of Tank/Healer mitigation Vs continually exponentially increasing MOB DPS.. ruins the combat IMO and ends up requiring perfect group makeups (mainly a fantastic Tank and Healer to keep them up.. a dead tank = wipe usually). EQ had stages where the classes that were not MT were killed instantly with zero time to react as the MOB DPS got so high to deal with improved Healing/Tanking, plenty of experience in the devs to not make this mistake again I think though or at least limit it so it doesnt become silly.I don't play Main Tanks but IMO they are the most important class and actually the hardest to be good at as if they suck then your group sucks period.. so respect to the MTs out there :).
Yeah I really never meant to 'attack' warriors in any way, but I see how it might have seemed that way! Warriors rock!