Kaen said:If the mechanics are done well, I wouldn't mind seeing a couple things for a couple classes so that enchanters (breeze/clarity) aren't essentially the only source of mana recovery, but it can be nice to have down time. In fact, I would say that in modern MMOs there's way too little down time.
We do know that Shaman will be getting a clarity type of mana regen spell. Maybe other classes will as well and it will be far more common than we are used to from EQ?
philo said:Kaen said:If the mechanics are done well, I wouldn't mind seeing a couple things for a couple classes so that enchanters (breeze/clarity) aren't essentially the only source of mana recovery, but it can be nice to have down time. In fact, I would say that in modern MMOs there's way too little down time.
We do know that Shaman will be getting a clarity type of mana regen spell. Maybe other classes will as well and it will be far more common than we are used to from EQ?
I think bard/enchanter should be the main sources of consistent group mana regen, and then other classes could have a variety of mana related abilities in their kits. Here is a rough outline similiar to what EQ2 used: (Keep in mind that stat buffs to wisdom or intelligence were only a fraction as effective as raw MP buffs)
Bard: Mana Song that gives consistent mana regen to group. Buffs that can temporarily reduce mana costs and cooldowns for a single target ally. Stat buffs that increased the total mana pool of both casters and priests. (Wisdom/Intelligence)
Enchanter: Breeze that gives consistent mana regen to group. Temporary buffs that grant group members a chance to proc mana on successful strikes or spell casts. Ability to channel some of their own mana to a single target ally. Stat buffs that increased the total mana pool of casters. (Intelligence/Raw MP) Equalize ability that calculates the total pool of available mana for the entire group and then evenly divides it.
Shaman: Cannibalize ability that functioned as a DoT on enemies and sapped mana for each successful tick. Single target buff that increased the total health and mana pool of a single target ally. (Raw HP/MP)
Cleric: Group buffs that increased the total mana pool of priests. (Wisdom) Variety of abilities that could be used that didn't have a mana cost but had longer cooldowns.
Druid: Group buffs that increased the total mana pool of priests and casters. (Wisdom/Intelligence) Single target ability that increased agility and the mana regeneration of a single target ally by a small amount. (Can only be used on a single ally.)
Wizard: Group buffs that could increased the total mana pool and elemental resistance of their group. (Raw MP) Spell that allowed the wizard to convert a small amount of their own health into mana. Spell that stifled the wizard for up to 15 seconds, slowly converting their health into mana. (Could be cancelled early.) Spell that allows the wizard to convert a small amount of their own health into mana that would be granted to a single target ally. Group buffs that increased the total mana pool of casters. (Intelligence) Single target spell that that gives an ally a chance to proc a small amount of power any time they are hit by a melee attack. (Can only be cast on a single ally.)
Necromancer: Group buffs that increase the total mana pool and noxious resistance of their group. (Raw MP) Spell that slowly converts the health of their pet into mana for the necromancer. Spell that summons a "heart" to a single target ally. The heart could be used 3 times before disappearing, and slowly converted a small amount of the users health into mana over time. (Heart was lore so if you already had one with 1 charge, you could not be granted another one.) Self buff that turned the necromancer into a lich; while active their HP was slowly converted into mana over time and all of their disease based attacks would now siphon health from their target.
Summoner: Group buffs that could increase the total mana pool and elemental resistance of their group. (Raw MP) Spell that slowly converts the health of their pet into mana for the summoner. Spells that summons a "shard" to a single target ally. The shard could be used 3 times before disappearing, and slowly converted a small amount of the users health into mana over time. (Shard was lore so if you already had one with 1 charge, you could not be granted another one.) Spell that sacrifices their pet for health and mana over time to their group.
One thing to consider with all of the above is that you would have multiple hotbars in EQ2. This allowed players to have a bunch of situational abilities that could be used in a pinch. My understanding is that we won't see more than a single hotbar in Pantheon so that kind of flexibility likely won't be present. That said, it's possible that any combination of the above abilities could translate and still warrant a spot on the players hotbar. Additionally, there were various abilities that would have no mana cost and that were instant cast. They had long cooldowns, but again, it was more of a clutch save kind of ability that probably couldn't exist in a game like Pantheon due to the extended cooldown and relative power of the ability.
I think it's possible, though, that some form of synergy could exist where players can execute chains of some sort that create windows of opportunity where group mates can cast spells with reduced or no mana cost. Rather than having 4-5 hotbars of abilities to cycle through, maybe it's possible to combine some of the above into secondary or tertiary effects that only come into play under specific situations. For example, a nuke that can proc mana return if it delivers a killing blow. A stun that can proc mana return if it successfully interrupts an enemy spell cast. Those are two very basic examples but the sky is the limit with what you can do with situational secondary/tertiary effects.
The Living Codex shows there being "Seals of Amplification, Seals of Resilience, and Signets of Synergy." It's possible that spells can be customized to some degree depending on the color of mana and the mana climate you find yourself in. Maybe you can custom tailor your red mana spells to cost less mana while in a specific climate, or enhance their bonuses while in others. Finally, the Signets of Synergy seem to suggest that you can add synergy effects to some of your spells that when used in tandem with other players who also use a qualifying spell with a signet, the combination can lead to powerful effects. I think this is ideal territory for "next spell cast has reduced mana cost" or "next spell cast has increased efficiency."
To be 100% honest here, I highly doubt that Pantheon is going to be a game where players need to worry about sitting on their bums for extended periods of time, at least not after they grow in power and progression a bit. Meditate has been observed in streams, but again, we're only seeing the super basic version of combat so far. I imagine there are quite a few features that haven't been implemented into the game yet and I'm confident that when they are, players will have "options" to keep them busy. Whether it's customizing their spells for efficiency, opening up combos with other players, utilizing situational gear, consumables, specializations, transcendant abilities, prime scrolls, etc ... I really don't think people are going to be sitting around bored.
It's been established a few times that VR is looking to get away from boring and repetitive gameplay and I can definitely appreciate the many casters who have chimed in to say that /sit meditating is basically the epitome of that for their class. I'm not sure how prevalent meditate was in EQ1 for priests/casters, but I don't expect it to be much more than a "light utility" spell in Pantheon. There are so many variables to consider in regards to what combat will ultimately look like. The streams haven't even scratched the surface yet. I think this is a big reason why VR is hesitant to commit to a bunch of streams because they don't want people jumping to conclusions and assuming that combat is fleshed out or that any painpoint observed is something players will actually have to deal with at launch. To be blunt, my expectations for this game are way too high to ever consider meditation woes to actually warrant any kind of concern.
Iksar said:If a group/caster has to spend their time doing *something* then is it really downtime at all?
No, of course you shouldn't *have* to, like you shouldn't *have* to sit down doing nothing.
Iksar said:Why can't the pace just be different? Why is it a key to make casters operate at a same pace (or shift closer to melee)? Some casters might be more active and mana efficient and others more traditionally bursty with more bouts of "inaction" between dropping big hits. Adding minor spells sounds like trying to give casters an "auto attack" like filler to do just so the person at the computer can keep pressing more buttons, which would be sad to me.
I wouldn't suggest the pace being the same as melee or pullers, nor would pressing buttons be mandatory. It would be nice to have some options, though, hence this discussion.
Coming from an EQ Warrior perspective that soloed now and then: downtime sucks (go go waiting 30-45 minutes between pulls of "A Caiman"). With that said there should be time between tough pulls.
The reason why EQ Warriors had no downtime in a group was because the healer decided it was quicker to heal the Warrior and rest again to regain their mana then it was to have the Warrior sit and gain health on their own (talking seconds over minutes in recovery rate). So if you want Warriors to "med" in a party after combat like casters do, have their health regen at the same rate as mana. Very quickly you will see people telling the Warrior to sit and rest instead of healing them after combat. Problem fixed! Warriors now need to rest after combat like the casters. Of course this still leaves other melee able to run around that took no damage; however, as a Warrior main in multiple MMO's I am ok with that. Or the devs could add AoE attacks to everything so the melee DPS take some damage that needs to be replenished after each fight also.
As to answer the question: how do we make medding fun? Simple answer, you do not. Downtime is not fun in and of itself. One reason most MMO's have allowed faster and faster recovery periods after combat until MMO's got to a point where there is no downtime between fights and the combat turns into a skill rotation to max DPS with no regards to conserving mana/energy/power. Heck in many MMO's you gain fighting potential the more you use abilities and lose power when not in combat.
Think of EQ combat as an Action => Consequence system.
Action: Healer and the rest of the casters are out of mana and the puller grabs a tough mob. Consequence: Party wipe (or people laugh at the dead puller as everybody else moved away from them).
Action: Wizard casts 1 spell that removes 50% of the NPC's health. Consequence: The Wizard needs to rest before dishing out the damage again (if they did not take agro).
Action: Healer wants to regain their mana faster. Consequence: The healer has to sit down and not run around.
Action: Healer wants to regain thier mana faster then just sitting. Consequence: Need to find an Enchanter to use the Enchanters mana so the healer can regain mana quicker.
How severe of a cosequance each action is needs to be fine tuned and that is what Alpha is for.
The main question for downtime is fairly basic:
How long should a rest period be to go from 1% Mana/Health to 100% Mana/Health whithout buffs? With buffs? With stacking buffs (Bard + Enc)? Until this gets ironed out it is pointless to work on methods of making medding more fun. The reason I say pointless is if the ideal number becomes 42 seconds do we really need a game to play that takes 2 minutes to complete to pass the time? Once we have a good working time base for recovery we can start to think of ways to make that time more enjoyable (if needed).
philo said:Kaen said:If the mechanics are done well, I wouldn't mind seeing a couple things for a couple classes so that enchanters (breeze/clarity) aren't essentially the only source of mana recovery, but it can be nice to have down time. In fact, I would say that in modern MMOs there's way too little down time.
We do know that Shaman will be getting a clarity type of mana regen spell. Maybe other classes will as well and it will be far more common than we are used to from EQ?
I don't recall this being a concrete thing. Jappa said in the stream that he brought over spells from other classes for the sake of the stream progression. So to my knowledge, there is no set in stone shaman gets clarity type spell.
I'd like to seperate the concept of downtime and *traditional* meditation. I absolutely agree downtime is needed and even desirable. What I would like to get away from is meditation *having* to mean *total* immobility and inaction.
I'd also like to consider alternatives to the enormous amounts of downtime that both warriors and casters like EQ clerics had. I think it noteworthy that, if warriors *did* medititate (or some equivalent) it would/could/should have an up-side of downtime not being so badly long when soloing or otherwise lacking healing.
disposalist said:I'd like to seperate the concept of downtime and *traditional* meditation. I absolutely agree downtime is needed and even desirable. What I would like to get away from is meditation *having* to mean *total* immobility and inaction.
I'd also like to consider alternatives to the enormous amounts of downtime that both warriors and casters like EQ clerics had. I think it noteworthy that, if warriors *did* medititate (or some equivalent) it would/could/should have an up-side of downtime not being so badly long when soloing or otherwise lacking healing.
Without the "traditional" meditation all you have left is normal mana/health recovery correct?
From a numbers perspective (100% made up numbers):
With traditional meditation:
Normal mana recovery: 5 mana per second.
Sitting mana recovery: 10 mana per second.
Without traditional meditation (boosted number to sitting # of traditional):
Normal mana recovery: 10 mana per second.
Sitting mana recovery: 10 mana per second.
Personally I like to sit when I need to regain resources quicker then I would if I did not sit, this just "feels" right to me.
Things to think about on how quickly the resource recovery rate is: the shorter the recovery rate the less social the game becomes. Yes their is an upper limit when people will not play because they have to wait 5 hours to regain 1 bubble of mana (and it takes 2 bubbles to cast a spell). However, as MMO's reduced the amount of time to regain resources they became more and more less social. Until the end game/raiding guilds, but that is a different topic.
Off the top of my head I believe 5 minutes would be a good starting point for full recovery. Long enough to be social and interact, yet not overwhelmingly long.
oneADseven said:I think bard/enchanter should be the main sources of consistent group mana regen, and then other classes could have a variety of mana related abilities in their kits. Here is a rough outline similiar to what EQ2 used: (Keep in mind that stat buffs to wisdom or intelligence were only a fraction as effective as raw MP buffs)
I wouldn't be too focused on which classes should have what. VR has used class names that we are familiar with and intend to roughly maintain the group role that we attach to those names. Outside of the general theme implied by the class names no abilites or powers should be considered a "sacred cow". A game that is still as early in development as Pantheon is is likely to undergo a great deal of changes, possibly fundamental mechanics changes, before it even reaches Beta. The EQ class and skill format is just the starting point from which the final versions will evolve.
Trasak said:oneADseven said:I think bard/enchanter should be the main sources of consistent group mana regen, and then other classes could have a variety of mana related abilities in their kits. Here is a rough outline similiar to what EQ2 used: (Keep in mind that stat buffs to wisdom or intelligence were only a fraction as effective as raw MP buffs)
I wouldn't be too focused on which classes should have what. VR has used class names that we are familiar with and intend to roughly maintain the group role that we attach to those names. Outside of the general theme implied by the class names no abilites or powers should be considered a "sacred cow". A game that is still as early in development as Pantheon is is likely to undergo a great deal of changes, possibly fundamental mechanics changes, before it even reaches Beta. The EQ class and skill format is just the starting point from which the final versions will evolve.
I disagree. Bards and Enchanters have always been used in more of a "support" role and a big part of that is tied into their semi-unique ability to serve as mana batteries. They should be the kings of mana regen the same way that healers should be the kings of HP restoration. I understand that the game is in early development and that things are subject to change but I'm not going to waste any time or thought on anything that would stray away from role interdependence. It's possible that a few wheels will be reinvented along the way but until I see confirmation as such I think it's safe, and reasonable, to assume that certain roles will maintain some of their iconic abilities. Saying bards and enchanters should be the main sources of consistent group mana regen is the same thing as saying that warriors/paladins/direlords should be the main source of aggro control. I don't mean to imply that as fact, but rather an opinion based on traditional roles that I expect to see in Pantheon.
As far as all of the other abilities I listed, I didn't mean to imply (maybe I did) that classes should get any or all of those abilities. I only wanted to share some examples of how other classes can also have mana-related abilities without disrupting the value that bards and enchanters should bring to the table. My main point was to point out that "meditation" shouldn't be viewed as the end-all-be-all for mana regeneration, for any class, unless you're solo. Seeing that this is a group-centric game that is also evolving the genre, I think it's fair to assume that the meditation woes of EQ1 will be alleviated in Pantheon. Anyway, I completely understand where you are coming from. The fact that "An MMO Evolved" is listed quite prominently on "The Pantheon Difference" page lends credence to your suggestion. We can expect change, and improvement. Either way, I would be shocked to see any class outside of bard or enchanter to carve out a serious role in the mana battery (for group) department.
oneADseven said:For example, a nuke that can proc mana return if it delivers a killing blow. A stun that can proc mana return if it successfully interrupts an enemy spell cast. Those are two very basic examples but the sky is the limit with what you can do with situational secondary/tertiary effects.
This kind of thing is a healthy middle to me as far as in-combat mana recovery, limited small bonuses that reward good play.
oneADseven said:It's possible that spells can be customized to some degree depending on the color of mana and the mana climate you find yourself in. Maybe you can custom tailor your red mana spells to cost less mana while in a specific climate, or enhance their bonuses while in others.
This is very interesting to me and something I never really thought about, granted we know nothing about colored mana (or if it's still planned). Perhaps different environments have different colors of mana more readily available, so in a frosty environment maybe white mana regens at a greater rate while red mana regens at a slower rate. So you can sling lots of frost spells in the environment but most enemies are more resistant taking reduced (or somtimes no) damage, though you can work toward stripping resists each fight to up that damage. At the same time fire spells are more effective but red mana regen is quite slow in the location so you have to use it rather sparingly. It also opens up times where a druid (and whomever else if necessary) can change the climate of the immediate area, altering the mana regen rates of the different colors.
Chogar said:The reason why EQ Warriors had no downtime in a group was because the healer decided it was quicker to heal the Warrior and rest again to regain their mana then it was to have the Warrior sit and gain health on their own (talking seconds over minutes in recovery rate). So if you want Warriors to "med" in a party after combat like casters do, have their health regen at the same rate as mana. Very quickly you will see people telling the Warrior to sit and rest instead of healing them after combat. Problem fixed! Warriors now need to rest after combat like the casters.
A nice thought but that still wouldn't work out because healing is just about always greater than the cost in mana. So if in 1 minute the tank regens 100 HP and the healer 100 mana, that 100 mana is then used to cast a heal for 2 or 300 hp.
Chogar said:disposalist said:I'd like to seperate the concept of downtime and *traditional* meditation. I absolutely agree downtime is needed and even desirable. What I would like to get away from is meditation *having* to mean *total* immobility and inaction.
I'd also like to consider alternatives to the enormous amounts of downtime that both warriors and casters like EQ clerics had. I think it noteworthy that, if warriors *did* medititate (or some equivalent) it would/could/should have an up-side of downtime not being so badly long when soloing or otherwise lacking healing.
Without the "traditional" meditation all you have left is normal mana/health recovery correct?
Hehe no, without the traditional method, you have a new re-worked method for Pantheon that doesn't enforce long periods of total inactivity. You couldn't just throw out medding with nothing to replace it.
It can even *be* medding, just not forcing total inactivity.
Iksar said:A nice thought but that still wouldn't work out because healing is just about always greater than the cost in mana. So if in 1 minute the tank regens 100 HP and the healer 100 mana, that 100 mana is then used to cast a heal for 2 or 300 hp.
I was refering to time to get to max, not increase at the same #. If a Warrior was at 50% health and a caster was at 50% mana and they both sat down they would be at 100% at the same time.
Mind you I do believe that health should regain slower then mana as it helps create the desire for groups; however, I believe EQ was to far apart on resting times for mana vs health.
disposalist said:
Hehe no, without the traditional method, you have a new re-worked method for Pantheon that doesn't enforce long periods of total inactivity. You couldn't just throw out medding with nothing to replace it.
It can even *be* medding, just not forcing total inactivity.
How do you get the benefit of medding without having to med? This is where I am lost. Either you do something restrictive (sit in 1 spot as an example) to gain a benefit (increase recovery rate). Or you do not need to do anything restrictive and have a single recovery rate (with in combat and out of combat regen as a possibility). Those are the only 2 base options. If there is a 3rd please let me know.
I am sure you could create a wack-a-mole game where each mole you wacked you regained mana/health over what you would have normally gained by standing around. However, that would be doing something restrictive (forced to play wack-a-mole) to gain a benefit (increase health/mana).
What do you think is an appropriate amout of time to go from near 0 to max mana/health?
Enitzu said:Jappa said in the stream that he brought over spells from other classes for the sake of the stream progression. So to my knowledge, there is no set in stone shaman gets clarity type spell.
I don't recall Joppa saying that. We even discussed the Shaman "breeze" in a thread right after the stream. No one else brought that up. Could you link to me the part where that was mentioned please?
philo said:Enitzu said:Jappa said in the stream that he brought over spells from other classes for the sake of the stream progression. So to my knowledge, there is no set in stone shaman gets clarity type spell.
I don't recall Joppa saying that. We even discussed the Shaman "breeze" in a thread right after the stream. No one else brought that up. Could you link to me the part where that was mentioned please?
Chogar said:disposalist said:Hehe no, without the traditional method, you have a new re-worked method for Pantheon that doesn't enforce long periods of total inactivity. You couldn't just throw out medding with nothing to replace it.
It can even *be* medding, just not forcing total inactivity.
How do you get the benefit of medding without having to med? This is where I am lost. Either you do something restrictive (sit in 1 spot as an example) to gain a benefit (increase recovery rate). Or you do not need to do anything restrictive and have a single recovery rate (with in combat and out of combat regen as a possibility). Those are the only 2 base options. If there is a 3rd please let me know.
Let's take cleric for example, though I'm sure each class could have something similar: -
You keep meditation as normal, but also have the option of singing a hymn. Interruption would still stop mana regain and you could even make it so interruption of a hymn undoes mana regain obtained so far to make it more risky and tactical, but during singing, you can still move and craft and gather and a few other utility functions.
There could be a 'trance'' state that isn't full meditation and let's you cast a subset of non-combat spells, but interruption loses you mana.
*shrug* I'm not a professional game designer - they could surely come up with other better and more interesting options. The point is: sitting on your arse is boring and there must be many alternatives that still balance and still provide downtime.
I really don't get why this is such a challenging train of thought.
Iksar said:philo said:Enitzu said:Jappa said in the stream that he brought over spells from other classes for the sake of the stream progression. So to my knowledge, there is no set in stone shaman gets clarity type spell.
I don't recall Joppa saying that. We even discussed the Shaman "breeze" in a thread right after the stream. No one else brought that up. Could you link to me the part where that was mentioned please?
Thanks Iksar, as I thought. That was the standard Shaman mana regen for that point of the build. It was not brought in from another class for the sake of the stream as Enitzu had stated.
I'm reviving a thread I started in January because the recent interview with Joppa had some interesting and relevant info: -
Quoting and paraphrasing Joppa: -
"I don't want to see wizards standing up, blowing a third of the mob's health off then sitting down the rest of the fight"
"Wizards will be able to still contribute damage while recuperating mana. Pre-Alpha is testing this. Feedback has been good. Wizard feels more involved than traditionally. Raw damage but with control"
"More mobility: Momentum may play a role in damage: Really get behind that fireball to do more damage!"
This is exactly the kind of attitude I was hoping for from the devs and I really really hope they apply the same logic to the other caster classes to some extent.
There's just no reason any player should be sitting on the floor doing nothing. Balance and pace can be controlled without such a restrictive and dull mechanic. Can't wait to try the Wizard (in Alpha) and I'm very pleased its getting good feedback so far.
I havent read the entire thread but I read enough to get the gist and I think there are many factors at play here that tie into this situation. I am personally as a current wow player terrified of attempts to make melee more like casters because it's what has made WoW's classes feel homogenized and less interesting as a player. I also think we cannot ignore the HUGE impact gear has on melee classes moreso than casters and how much downtime a melee needs solo or how much strain is placed on the group healer. I personally hope that the game will not be as frantic and fast paced as Wow where I have to spam keys non stop as any class to have a shot at being competent.
My experience in EQ was people were laid back and fine with the required downtime needed for casters. Heck I mained an SK who were far more valued than a Warrior outside of raids and we had to sit and med pretty regulary and while FD is awesome there was plenty of FD and wait for pathing to split things to we could break a camp. I do agree with the OP I hate overt downtime where the casters feel like they can't do anything. EQ's problem was early level because later in life casters didn't fizzle trained spells and were gods. It's that reason that it also concerns me moving forward that we don't make casters too OP otherwise they don't need groups or they just outshine melee so hard that nobody wants a melee anymore. I have faith that the pantheon devs are aware of this and so far I have been impressed with what they have been doing but I think we need to consider there are a lot of factors from several different angles to consider with this issue.
Cheers!
Post deleted - not helpful, my apologies.
Krixus said:CanadinaXegony said:You can't "always" grab a bard or an enchanter.
Unless you have a hangout where people are throwing out buffs ..like in the Plane of Knowledge, not all groups are composed of enchanters or bards as members either. I don't have a problem tempering my nukes or managing my mana, but if the puller comes back with more mobs than we can handle..what with root and other spells cast by the caster with the nukes, mana bar doesn't hold up for long.
Meanwhile the melee are still merrily whacking away with no downtime and no drawbacks.
Again the fizzles and resists that also eat mana, also reduce your mana no matter how good you are at managing. The reason I am in this thread is I "want" to be a useful member of the group...not having to constantly sit on my fanny because its some Dev's conviction that I must be punished because I am a caster.
There has to be a better way than what was invented 18 years ago, at least we don't have the meditation spell book taking up our whole screen, while we med.
I acquired some acute hearing for the pitter patter of large feet coming to punish me because I was sitting down to med.
Let's hope VR has better balancing..and better ideas.
Mana ratio to resists and fizzles, SHOULD be examined, yes I still expect to "manage" my mana, but I don't expect to get 3 or 4 large fizzles in a row ...that eat my whole mana bar.
If we are going to give feedback...this is the opportune time. The Devs can mull it over and decide what they want to do with that right? Just because we say something or feedback something...doesn't mean the Dev team is there to fulfill our every wish and dream. But it doesn't hurt to bring it up. :)
Cana
No downtime and no drawbacks? That's beyond ignorant.
I don't understand why you keep posting about pulling. If your puller sucks, what does that have to do with having to meditate?
"That's beyond ignorant" hmm didnt' see that comment, can we keep this civil? Pulling by the puller has everything to do with remaining mana in the group. Karnor's castle in EQ was a good example.."chain pulling" so you help (as a caster) bring down the hps ..root the adds, call out what you've rooted so the team knows.
Then somehow that mana doesn't last forever....you have to sit and med, whoop can't do that aggroed mobs come for you, because sitting to med makes you a target. I've been in many groups where the puller..has eyes bigger than the capability of the group.
Not much anyone can do about that other than indicate that you are oom..ask they leave off pulling so the mana reliant people INCLUDING THE HEALER...can regain part of their "weapon" or group health saving. A good puller would be cognizant of the needs of his group...and allow a little downtime.
VR expects we will have downtime. Now all we have to do is have people who have good sense when pulling for their group. That's a group dynamic..wouldn't you say? And yes some pullers "suck" to quote you. As a group we are a team..therefore all participants would like to help or participate to keep the whole team alive.
disposalist said:I'm reviving a thread I started in January because the recent interview with Joppa had some interesting and relevant info: -
Quoting and paraphrasing Joppa: -
"I don't want to see wizards standing up, blowing a third of the mob's health off then sitting down the rest of the fight"
"Wizards will be able to still contribute damage while recuperating mana. Pre-Alpha is testing this. Feedback has been good. Wizard feels more involved than traditionally. Raw damage but with control"
"More mobility: Momentum may play a role in damage: Really get behind that fireball to do more damage!"
This is exactly the kind of attitude I was hoping for from the devs and I really really hope they apply the same logic to the other caster classes to some extent.
There's just no reason any player should be sitting on the floor doing nothing. Balance and pace can be controlled without such a restrictive and dull mechanic. Can't wait to try the Wizard (in Alpha) and I'm very pleased its getting good feedback so far.
I am happy to see this as well..:) And my main has always been Wizard...since 1999. :) (well..1998 if you want to count beta before EQ's release.)
Oggle said:I havent read the entire thread but I read enough to get the gist and I think there are many factors at play here that tie into this situation. I am personally as a current wow player terrified of attempts to make melee more like casters because it's what has made WoW's classes feel homogenized and less interesting as a player. I also think we cannot ignore the HUGE impact gear has on melee classes moreso than casters and how much downtime a melee needs solo or how much strain is placed on the group healer. I personally hope that the game will not be as frantic and fast paced as Wow where I have to spam keys non stop as any class to have a shot at being competent.
My experience in EQ was people were laid back and fine with the required downtime needed for casters. Heck I mained an SK who were far more valued than a Warrior outside of raids and we had to sit and med pretty regulary and while FD is awesome there was plenty of FD and wait for pathing to split things to we could break a camp. I do agree with the OP I hate overt downtime where the casters feel like they can't do anything. EQ's problem was early level because later in life casters didn't fizzle trained spells and were gods. It's that reason that it also concerns me moving forward that we don't make casters too OP otherwise they don't need groups or they just outshine melee so hard that nobody wants a melee anymore. I have faith that the pantheon devs are aware of this and so far I have been impressed with what they have been doing but I think we need to consider there are a lot of factors from several different angles to consider with this issue.
Cheers!
You will always need melee...they can take the hits, casters have to stay at range, given their toilet paper armor, and low hps in comparison to the tank or other melee in the group. I don't see casters as being too over powered in Pantheon. I would say from current interviews that the Devs are very focussed on balance and utility of all classes. And just because something "has always been that way" in reference to casters, doesn't mean that Pantheon has to follow suit.
Venjenz said:disposalist said:I'd like to seperate the concept of downtime and *traditional* meditation. I absolutely agree downtime is needed and even desirable. What I would like to get away from is meditation *having* to mean *total* immobility and inaction.
Sounds to me like you want Pantheon to have the "everyone can solo" mechanic like WoW. Meditation is part of resource management, but so is not overcasting, overhealing, focusng on DPS meters, etc. You're applying WoW-esque thinking to an EQ1-esque game. In an EQ1-esque game, the pace is slower, mobs die slower and you aren't graded against the DPS meters and other mods that track performance, but rather on not dying and efficiently grinding exp.
Example - my enchanter in a single group dungeon crawl. Yes, I had DD nukes. Yes, I hardy ever cast them. My mana was better served with utility casting and then plopping on the ground to manage my mana properly. Why? Because my job is to make the group more efficient, not to do DPS. Pull with Tash, take a slap to engage floaty pet, drop slow on the mob, dispel their buffs, and make sure any adds are mezzed and my team is hasted. After that, manage mana to deal with surprises, resists, and teammates/myself making mistakes. Even charm was situational, because depending on the charmable mobs, the local magic resistance, and my level vs the mobs...charm could end up being less efficient for my team. Not everyone needs to go HAM to make a group work most efficiently, and meditation as a mana management tool drives home efficiency versus HAM speed killing.
To the main topic, warriors don't need to med because their resource management is handled by someone who does need to med. Healer mana = warrior HP, and healer mana = med. Warriors in EQ1 cannot solo, not even a little. They need healers to function efficiently, and healers need mana. They trade not having to med for needing to be utterly dependent on people who do have to med.
EDIT - and reading further posts, this is a wizard gripe recycled from 1999-2001. The class with nukes that could 3 shot even con mobs, and had absurd alpha strike capability, but oh no, they have to med as a downside to the absurd top dog DPS they had on anything other than long boss fights (where my beloved necromancers ruled ALL!). In a proper group, wizards could cast twice per fight, med the rest of the time and still be top dps. Is that boring? Sure, but so is a full group needing 45-90 seconds to kill mobs 3-4 levels below the group average level. That's how EQ1-esque games work. Everything is slower and tougher, by design.
I understand your view and I mostly agree, but I think you've misunderstood mine somewhat. I thought the very comment you quote is pretty clear?
I want pace of combat to be slow and tactical (relative to other MMORPGs) and am happy with downtime, but when it is *forced* as *the only* mechanic to balance to a caster's power, it becomes boring quickly and it doesn't have to be that way.
An alternative to sitting down, motionless in order to regain power does not have to be WoW-like 'infinite' power and certainly doesn't imply any ability to solo.
Joppa hints at some alternate methods (hinting at more mobility and ways to recuperate mana while still contributing) and we've seen reference to other more interesting things in streams (enchanters using AoE damage with draws mana from monsters).
You don't need to throw out the whole concept of downtime and balance to come up with something less boring than going prone and still.
CanadinaXegony said:And just because something "has always been that way" in reference to casters, doesn't mean that Pantheon has to follow suit.
I have thought that exact sentiment on at least 10 different thread discussions so far. I am a FIRM believer in the existance of rose colored glasses. A general feel or general mechanic often contains nostalgic elements but when you really boil it down to the nuts and bolts; there are improvements or improvisations that can be made vs what was developed 20 years ago .
Here are a couple thoughts about casters participating without casting. I mentioned before in a different thread the concept of the Rune Priest in Warhammer Online; that class had to go melee in order to gain power to heal. Let's spin that a bit and state that a wizard is recovering mana (meditating) as long as he is not casting. He still has a staff or other melee weapons he can employ. Let him employ it while recovering mana; the damage may not be worth a hill of beans for dps in the grand scheme of things but the RL person driving that toon still is participating. Maybe reading a scroll spell is not technically "casting", hence he is recovering mana but still doing something. Maybe relocating to a better strategic position for his next planned spell is not casting because spells can be spatially situational just like a side attack or rear strike with melee. Nothing says that a caster has to plant his butt in one spot and become a tree other than the statement "that's the way it has always been done".