Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What are your ideals and game-breakers?

    • 1048 posts
    August 11, 2017 5:02 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    Just like players are fooled by Ilvls and the promise of awesome gear ,disguising the lack of quality content

    It's not an either/or scenario. And it shouldnt be. Like Liav, I'm more and more baffled about why you would be a backer of a game that obviously isnt what you really would prefer to play. There's almost no one here that wants a game with no levels and no gear progression, and VR isn't going to change that design. Why do you insist on bringing it up in so many threads?


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at August 11, 2017 5:04 AM PDT
    • 397 posts
    August 11, 2017 6:13 AM PDT

    bdale0351 said: 

    I think that most people that hate gear progresion are probably the ones that don't like or can't raid that much. In their mind this will keep them at a level playing field. And is a horrible idea.

    I wouldn't say so. A successful adventurer needs both equipment and skill. I would hope that Pantheon will not only rely on gear to differentiate between adventurers. To be great, you should also have an extensive knowledge about your character/class and the world and be able to use that knowledge wisely in the right moment.

    Gear progression is an important part of what keeps me playing MMOs, but its not the only (or most important) part!

    • 19 posts
    August 11, 2017 5:25 PM PDT

    Some of my turn offs 

     

    Big numbers. 

    To many games start off when your doing 100 to 1000 dps right off the bat, then you're in the millions at the end of the game. scale it back, divide by 100 and then its more appealing to me.

     

    Feign Death pulling.

    I'm ok with every now and then, but imagine being the mob you're pulling. "Oh he died i'll just stand here. wait he's still alive! oh, no, dead again. huh. i'll just stand here, again" mobs should not be able to be tricked like this over and over. I'd say reasonable solutions should be doing one successful FD per group of enemies, and/or FD could only be used immediantly after taking damage. You need to split a group you should also have mez/root/kiting/stun or just don't.

     

    Quick gear progression

    I agree with many here that until higher levels stat gear should be few and far between. I also like what some MMOs have had to do where they scale all gear back after an expansion, so the numbers get smaller. I also like a lot of gear slots. 2 rings, 2 earrings sure but maybe only 1 wrist slot =p.

     

    To Few Stats

    I don't want to much stat gear to start, but i do want it! and I want options! Let me decide if i want dodge, parry, block or riposte, and make sure each does something else!

     

    Crafting needs to mean something

    I like the idea of taking apart gear to learn how to make it, and when made its maybe 90%/100%/110% the strength of the normal piece, depending on luck/skill.

     

    Twinking

    I like strict level requirements on stat gear, especially if your going to have as much tradable as pantheon sounds like it will.

     

    • 561 posts
    August 12, 2017 3:19 AM PDT

    Feyshtey said:

    Fluffy said:

    Just like players are fooled by Ilvls and the promise of awesome gear ,disguising the lack of quality content

    It's not an either/or scenario. And it shouldnt be. Like Liav, I'm more and more baffled about why you would be a backer of a game that obviously isnt what you really would prefer to play. There's almost no one here that wants a game with no levels and no gear progression, and VR isn't going to change that design. Why do you insist on bringing it up in so many threads?

    I bring it up a lot because it is the biggest risk area.There is a reason why we are all here -wanting for a better quality game.
    Just because something has been done before in a certain way, does not mean you have to repeat it.Games need to evolve
    There is a trend of playing these MMO a few months,after which these games fall into obscurity.
    We feel like playing these glorified single player games and levels and gear progression has a lot to do with it,as it keeps people preoccupied with gear and personal power.
    Perhaps even in such a way that it trivializes the actual content, wanting to reach the *honey*(endgame raid gear etc).And because we are so preoccupied with Ilvl and gear we rarely pay mind to players that cross our path.The issue is that this causes it to be more about the destination(endgame) than the journey (spending meaningful time in each area)
    Depending on the design choices it can be an either/or scenario without doubt.Haven't we seen enough MMOs?Don't we know how things usually go with those games by now?How fed up /burned out we get after a few weeks of playing
    Should we learn nothing from it?Is it so wrong to question these designs?
    Im more baffled that people blindly keep supporting these things at this point.
    We also near the point that this is kind of the last hope for the genre
    I have to admit,it is tempting to give in to that obsession with Ilvl and gear.But I came to realize I'm fed up with it and won't allow myself to get cought up in it again,taking away all the fun of the game.
    It would be easier to do if not everyone around was obsessed.It is all that people talk about ingame so it can't be avoided even if I wanted to
    Ilvl and gear is the whole reason why people only think about "endgame" you see.
    If we are to spend meaningful time in all the areas Pantheon has to offer,these things need to evolve.
    As Sarim mentions,it is not the only part,yet the way it is designed in these games causes players to be preoccupied with it in such a way that it is the only important part.
    We all want this game to succeed as supporters.I just try to make it clear yet I can't save the game if it is set on making the same mistakes as the predecessors.So all I can do is bring it up a lot


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 12, 2017 3:45 AM PDT
    • 2056 posts
    August 12, 2017 3:59 AM PDT

    I feel like people lose sight of things in the pursuit of the perfect game. The reality is that none of us have the recipe to make a game that we will play and enjoy long term.

    Gear progression is an intrinsic part of MMOs, and it will be an intrinsic part of Pantheon. It was an intrinsic part of all of the old games that gave birth to the genre, and it is intrinsic to games that have failed or that we deem bad.

    What is important is that a lot of people here have some very wild, outlandish expectations. You want a game without gear progression, but equally meaningful progression in some other form? I don't think you could find a method of progression to replace it. I don't think I could either.

    How do you continue to create content for a game without making things samey? Incremental itemization with annual or bi-annual gear resets is simply a manner of rapid content generation, which is what happens when progression is too fast. Even if progression is slow, there's a very finite amount of unique content a developer can reasonably create.

    It's entirely divorced from reality to believe that Pantheon will be the game that somehow manages to replace typical MMO progression tropes.

    • 561 posts
    August 12, 2017 4:40 AM PDT

    The gnome pie recipe from ZennExile might do wonders actually,Liav
    I think people lose sight,not in pursuit of the perfect game-but because they can only look back to past game experiences,accepting bad designs as their ideals
    Would you say for a patient with cancer that it is an intrinsic part of the body?That the patient would have to accept it ?rather than trying to mend it?
    Even if there is gear progression,it could evolve to support the vision and a healthy community, rather than feeding into our personal obsessions that keep us preoccupied.

    It is too soon to divorce,you first need to give things a chance
    replace -/- evolve the progression system
    In my view it would be best to look at adventure games for progression;

    Abilities and skills can be increased through training them
    Equipement
    Equipping certain items can change abilities and skills. These changes are in place only while the item is equipped and are not permanent. Items may increase or decrease stats (or both) depending on the item equipped.

    • 2056 posts
    August 12, 2017 6:13 AM PDT

    What about pie recipes? I'm having difficulty parsing this post. Instead of vague analogies can we try to clearly elaborate our points?

    You want to evolve gear progression. How do you want to do that? Abilities and skills being trained is not novel. That existed before MMOs were even a thing. Equipment modifying abilities is also not new in any way. EQ had several items that gave negative stats.

    I reiterate, what exactly is your complaint? I can't tell exactly the scope of what you're asking. Is it a minor complaint about certain itemization models, or is it a fundamental rejection of the idea of number-based stats on gear as a whole?

    • 290 posts
    August 12, 2017 8:18 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    What about pie recipes? I'm having difficulty parsing this post. Instead of vague analogies can we try to clearly elaborate our points?

    You want to evolve gear progression. How do you want to do that? Abilities and skills being trained is not novel. That existed before MMOs were even a thing. Equipment modifying abilities is also not new in any way. EQ had several items that gave negative stats.

    I reiterate, what exactly is your complaint? I can't tell exactly the scope of what you're asking. Is it a minor complaint about certain itemization models, or is it a fundamental rejection of the idea of number-based stats on gear as a whole?

     

    He doesn't want leveling nor does he want item progression.  He brings up these two points in every single thread that he is in.  Even threads that have nothing to do with leveling or items.  He seems to think that if we just stop being selfish about items and power, all will be right with the worlds and we'll have a perfect MMO too.  That's all you really need to understand about any of his posts.  The same points just keep being made in thread after thread like saying them in different places will result in VR say, "Oh, I hadn't realized that until just now.  We need to start this entire development cycle over completely in order to make this a game with no levels and no item progression and provide lots of places to sing Kum-by-ya.  Even though doing so would set development back perhaps 5 years."

    I don't even mind the idea of finding a new type of game that works differently.  But this isn't that game.  It has been in development for a long time now and is well past the point of changing such key design points such as having no leveling system, even if the devs wanted to do such a thing, nevermind if that what the demographic interested in this game wanted that.  Any communication of these points only results in him doubling down on the "leveling and item progression are bad and shouldn't be in this game" and the insinuation that not doing so means that they are catering to the "uncaring" hardcore players that which have "ruined" every game in history because they are selfish and don't care for the community.  The fact that this isn't actually the way things went down with any game doesn't have any influence over the number of times it will be repeated as if it were fact.


    I can imagine replacements for leveling that could be fun but it is an area untried as yet and no game has successfully done it (even skill-based games like Ultima online were a form of leveling a main skill and vertical progression nonetheless.

    As for item progression, I'd prefer to have a slower progression with options of different benefits from different content to spread out the repeatition, but I certainly don't expect it to be replaced in an MMO anytime soon.

    Anyhow, I'm not sure why he's backing this game as it clearly isn't the game that he wants, but it seems that it his mission to make it something that it isn't and isn't likely to ever be.


    This post was edited by DragonFist at August 12, 2017 12:50 PM PDT
    • 251 posts
    August 12, 2017 11:03 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    What about pie recipes? I'm having difficulty parsing this post. Instead of vague analogies can we try to clearly elaborate our points?

    What if the Pie... is the point?

    • 561 posts
    August 12, 2017 4:19 PM PDT

    Liav said:

    What about pie recipes? I'm having difficulty parsing this post. Instead of vague analogies can we try to clearly elaborate our points?

    You want to evolve gear progression. How do you want to do that? Abilities and skills being trained is not novel. That existed before MMOs were even a thing. Equipment modifying abilities is also not new in any way. EQ had several items that gave negative stats.

    I reiterate, what exactly is your complaint? I can't tell exactly the scope of what you're asking. Is it a minor complaint about certain itemization models, or is it a fundamental rejection of the idea of number-based stats on gear as a whole?

    A first step to evolve gear progression is already being fulfilled; environment having an impact on our wears and protection with the situational gear

    If you ask me,I'd remove the level ranges from items (so there no longer is an item lvl ranger 20-30 50-60 etc)
    and introduce fragment versions of items for each of those shipwrecked worlds and awe-inspiring locals
    The materials used for the items would have unique properties for which the player lacks the knowledge to identify the properties
    The player has to investigate, use the item and discover what is so special about it by visiting and interacting with certain places in the world.
    That requires puzzle solving sometimes.The perception system might play a role in it.Remembering certain details about the lore in order to unlock too.
    So each item appears to be ordinary at fist and has potential to be something special.Probably causes each item to be of great value too.As you would have to take care of your item like it was your Tamagotchi

    Certain items would grant new abilities after you successfully honed/activated the item.Some of them change appearance after they are magically unlocked.
    Artifacts on the other hand have a very distinctive appearance with special ornaments.But their greater power often comes with a curse.

    Each of these materials and objects found in these shipwrecked worlds with awe-inspiring locals,could be used by the player to assemble an artifact of their own.(with a world mission attached)
    In this case the item would gain the player's name in front of the item.

    Since I'm not against the idea of improving climbing from 100 to 150 climbing or swimming from 100 to 200 
    I do think each skill should be trained individually ;you aren't a master of swords the moment you equip one.In my opinion there should be a learning process to it.
    That feels much more rewarding once you do master the sword.I suspect its more with the itemization model that I have issues in MMOs 

    kumbaya,we eat some pie<33


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 12, 2017 4:33 PM PDT
    • 497 posts
    August 12, 2017 4:58 PM PDT

    OP i like your direction here, i also followed the EQ then tried wow 1-50, back to EQ etc.. easy mode is not what i want.

     

    I dont dislike much but when it comes to 1-50 expansion then within 6 months we have another expansion. Half the jumpers go off to other games leaving clan mates sitting waiting for help to get to where the rest are.

    Fill your bags with guild loot, 1-2 months later disapear until the next expansion because your decked out already. Nice way to say FU team.

    Summer time? sure we all are busy.

    Fast expansions

    and most of all a boring MMOrpg like the spam and click ones.

     

    Otherwise i like EQ and have no problems playing it again if forced.

     

    • 2056 posts
    August 13, 2017 12:14 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    A first step to evolve gear progression is already being fulfilled; environment having an impact on our wears and protection with the situational gear

    If you ask me,I'd remove the level ranges from items (so there no longer is an item lvl ranger 20-30 50-60 etc)
    and introduce fragment versions of items for each of those shipwrecked worlds and awe-inspiring locals
    The materials used for the items would have unique properties for which the player lacks the knowledge to identify the properties
    The player has to investigate, use the item and discover what is so special about it by visiting and interacting with certain places in the world.
    That requires puzzle solving sometimes.The perception system might play a role in it.Remembering certain details about the lore in order to unlock too.
    So each item appears to be ordinary at fist and has potential to be something special.Probably causes each item to be of great value too.As you would have to take care of your item like it was your Tamagotchi

    Certain items would grant new abilities after you successfully honed/activated the item.Some of them change appearance after they are magically unlocked.
    Artifacts on the other hand have a very distinctive appearance with special ornaments.But their greater power often comes with a curse.

    Each of these materials and objects found in these shipwrecked worlds with awe-inspiring locals,could be used by the player to assemble an artifact of their own.(with a world mission attached)
    In this case the item would gain the player's name in front of the item.

    Since I'm not against the idea of improving climbing from 100 to 150 climbing or swimming from 100 to 200 
    I do think each skill should be trained individually ;you aren't a master of swords the moment you equip one.In my opinion there should be a learning process to it.
    That feels much more rewarding once you do master the sword.I suspect its more with the itemization model that I have issues in MMOs 

    kumbaya,we eat some pie<33

    The issue I see with this is that items would have to been exceedingly rare for it to work. Exceedingly rare items stifles progression.

    What you're describing sounds like an epic quest. It can't practically be applied to every item in the game. It's a huge amount of development effort, and it's quite difficult to implement without a ton of overlap.

    For instance, EQ2 had heritage quests which were essentially mini epic quests that rewarded you with an item that was a throwback to EQ. Dwarven Ringmail Tunic from Crushbone is a good example of this, as well as things like Ghoulbane. Eventually the EQ2 devs started releasing maybe one or two heritage quests per expansion due to the massive burden of creating these extensive quest lines.

    The technology, time, and funding just isn't there yet. It probably won't be for another decade or more. Not only that, but the market for such a game is probably extremely niche. How would you make your money back? While I wish I could put on a helmet and play Sword Art Online, we'll likely have to settle for killing dragons and having them drop breastplates.

    This thread is about "ideals and game-breakers". I have pretty grave news for anyone who considers traditional MMO itemization to be a game-breaker, especially regarding Pantheon.

    • 561 posts
    August 13, 2017 3:21 AM PDT

    au contraire Liav,it wouldn't stifle progression.As it would all be about options with all unique properties of items with the potential to unlock.
    The prime scroll in the living codex could also influence some of the properties on the item you decide to wield.
    The objects you discover to alter your equipment with at the awe-inspiring locals, allow you to create very iconic items.Like some swamp tribe could provide a serpent shaft for your dagger
    The other tribe a lotus flower.Allowing you to create very distinctive and iconic characters.Like how Ardune Mithara is instantly recognized by the looks

    Difficult is done at once,the impossible takes a little longer ;)
    I find it funny and amusing how they constantly insinuate the game isn't for me just because I do not agree with some views
    Itemization can definetly bring grave news for us all when it comes to deal breakers.That is why it is important to mention it.
    Just like how some flakes from the face of an Ogre with dermatitis can be a dealbreaker when they are sprinkled on top of the gnomepie

    • 2056 posts
    August 13, 2017 4:14 AM PDT

    It's more like ideas eventually have to get turned into code.

    For instance:

    "objects you discover to alter your equipment" - This is very vague. Just about every MMO I've played has had things you put into gear to alter them. It's been done before and Pantheon will probably have something like this. EQ had augmentations. EQ2 had adornments. Vanguard had runes.

    "awe-inspiring locals" - What does this even mean? You've said this a dozen times in this thread.

    "iconic items" - Plenty of items from EQ are iconic and don't have half of these criteria.

    "distinctive and iconic characters" - The most recognizable thing about the character is that it's a Half Elf, which is an uncommon racial choice. At least, that's the way I see it. There's nothing terribly unique about a character in green plate armor with a sword that every player of that class has access to.

     

    • 561 posts
    August 13, 2017 4:52 AM PDT

    So you think they talk in code in the about pantheon section?
    I thought it would be best t use references to what they mentioned.
    Since english is not my first language.
    You may always ask them in a next round table what exactly they mean with "awe-inspiring locals"

    "Uncovered civilizations and awe-inspiring locales will offer new and incredible adventures for you and your friends to experience"
    So with uncovering these civilizations ,uncovering their items and art-
    Researching which properties their materials and strange objects have ,Would seem like a logical way to do these things.Encouraging you to explore these things too

    only played EQ2 very briefly.Didn't like the questhubs ,way too linear.Only played it till lvl 14 or so
    While the world had some interesting elements to it.The stiffness of it all didn't manage to hold my attention.Was it the way combat worked?The animation ?cant fingerpoint that exactly.
    But I can't talk about EQ

    • 2056 posts
    August 13, 2017 6:03 AM PDT

    Honestly there's little point in discussing it further. The promotional material for the game (such as the "about Pantheon" section) is not in any way specific enough to get any meaningful information out of.

    Pantheon will have awe-inspiring locales. What does that have to do with gear progression? What do you mean by "researching", "properties", "materials", and "strange objects"?

    We're clearly not on the same page or you're just not interested in delving into specifics.

    • 251 posts
    August 13, 2017 10:30 AM PDT

    What truly matters is the progression of Pie fillings.  You can make a Pie out of almost anything.  The trick is to carefully contrast opposing favors into a new robust flavor that is novel, and exciting.  Like my Blackberry Sweat Meats.  You would think Gnome Organs and Blackberries... no way. But I am here to tell you... Way.  So good.  It tastes like if a rainbow had organs.  3 out of 4 customers cry during their first bite. 

    I'm all about that Pie, bout that Pie, no cake.


    This post was edited by ZennExile at August 13, 2017 10:31 AM PDT
    • 167 posts
    August 13, 2017 12:01 PM PDT

    I promised myself I wouldn't but...

    Uncovered civilizations... new mobs to kill or ally with

    Awe-inspiring locales... cool graphics

    Why even try to read anything more into it at this point.


    This post was edited by Aatu at August 13, 2017 12:04 PM PDT
    • 290 posts
    August 13, 2017 12:32 PM PDT

    Aatu said:

    I promised myself I wouldn't but...

    Uncovered civilizations... new mobs to kill or ally with

    Awe-inspiring locales... cool graphics

    Why even try to read anything more into it at this point.



    To somehow justify talking about things that aren't in the game because something in the lore might be tangently connected to a vague idea of something that might have to do with getting rid of leveling in the mind of some nerdy dude that your college roomate might have taken a class with once.

    • 31 posts
    August 13, 2017 1:36 PM PDT

    Makers:

    ~ Difficult. I like getting my rear handed back to me in pieces. I would love Pantheon to be the Dark Souls of MMORPGs. This makes learning the methods and weaknesses of mobs worthwhile and very rewarding once you finally defeat them. Dungeons will feel ominous which death lurking around every corner and a decent group is a necessity. I feel this is an important part to suck you into the game and become deeply immersed.

    ~ Meaningful loss from dying. This kind of goes along with the "Difficult" part above. I think the fear of losing time doing corpse runs keeps people from doing things that they normally wouldn't do (ie Running through dungeons and making giant trains). Also this makes invisibiltiy and sneaking more valuable. 

    ~ Massive world that cannot be easier traveled quickly. In EQ there were places like druid spires and that seemed to work well but still made traveling a thing. 

    ~ A way to help people find groups without having to spam LFG constantly. One reason I quit playing Vanguard was I started to have a hard time finding groups. In EQ, I had a buddy that I played with every night for years and it was great. I would like to see some way a group could tag openings they have with "Paladin, Warrion, Wizard, all the above, etc." This would auto group you with someone who's in the area LFG that matches the criteria. 

     

    Breakers:

    ~ Free Games. VR has already stated this is subscription based, good. 

    ~ Goofy costumes, stuff that in no way could be relevant to the Pantheon world. This ruins the immersion for me. I like to see what people are wearing for gear. It's kind of a status thing. 

    ~ A game filled with people using real money to buy "Gold" from a 3rd party.

    • 1195 posts
    August 14, 2017 10:26 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    I bring it up a lot because it is the biggest risk area.There is a reason why we are all here -wanting for a better quality game.
    Just because something has been done before in a certain way, does not mean you have to repeat it.Games need to evolve
    We feel like playing these glorified single player games and levels and gear progression has a lot to do with it,as it keeps people preoccupied with gear and personal power.
    Perhaps even in such a way that it trivializes the actual content, wanting to reach the *honey*(endgame raid gear etc).And because we are so preoccupied with Ilvl and gear we rarely pay mind to players that cross our path.The issue is that this causes it to be more about the destination(endgame) than the journey (spending meaningful time in each area)
    Depending on the design choices it can be an either/or scenario without doubt.Haven't we seen enough MMOs?Don't we know how things usually go with those games by now?How fed up /burned out we get after a few weeks of playing
    Should we learn nothing from it?Is it so wrong to question these designs?
    I have to admit,it is tempting to give in to that obsession with Ilvl and gear.But I came to realize I'm fed up with it and won't allow myself to get cought up in it again,taking away all the fun of the game.
    It would be easier to do if not everyone around was obsessed.It is all that people talk about ingame so it can't be avoided even if I wanted to
    Ilvl and gear is the whole reason why people only think about "endgame" you see.
    If we are to spend meaningful time in all the areas Pantheon has to offer,these things need to evolve.
    We all want this game to succeed as supporters.I just try to make it clear yet I can't save the game if it is set on making the same mistakes as the predecessors.So all I can do is bring it up a lot

     

    I think the issue there is that people LIKE gear progression, it's the specifics of it that disagreements come from. RPGs since Dungeons & Dragons have had items play a fairly large part in player/character progression, it's a core feature of these games and one of the main things that keeps players engaged and progressing. I can't tell you how many RPGs I've played in the past that I would have likely never finished/played if there was no equipment to upgrade and it was all about the story/journey. I also don't believe that gear is the issue with people not enjoying the journey/spending meaningful time in each area and the real culprit is the fast leveling of modern MMOs paired with everything except instances being soloable, something this game won't/shouldn't suffer from. 

     

    It isn't wrong to question these things obviously, but I feel it is pretty important to realize we are still at least a decade away from anything like what you are describing/hoping for. Personally I would totally be down to give a go to a game with very limited gear progression if I were actually a part of/engaged in that world. However until such a time that I can fully be present in a game, (convincing VR, tactile response, dynamic combat, and realistic travel and interactions) I can't "be" my character and won't be able to be lost in the world in any meaningful way that would make the journey exciting enough to forgo my character's progression with rare/magical items and seeing him grow with them. 

    • 465 posts
    August 14, 2017 10:40 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I think the issue there is that people LIKE gear progression, it's the specifics of it that disagreements come from.

     

    Precisely. Gear progression is the tits.

    Seeing everyone around you wearing the same thing, is not.

    Nobody knows what makes a perfect MMO, as someone already said - but having options is always a good way to go. Don't have just one road leading to the same gear set at every level range. Have multiple roads with multiple options.

    And if you ARE going to have one road, make sure it's friggin' worth it. As in the Hunter's League quest in Vanguard.

    • 561 posts
    August 15, 2017 8:08 AM PDT

    Now you mention the disagreements are about specifics,Iksar
    Yes I think it is in details.
    I'm not against some form of gear progression(see fragment world item versions suggested a few posts back)
    I do believe gear progression should take a less prominent role in the game
    The games and your character requiring progression in other areas.Like alignment affecting some looks and abilities that become available to the player.
    The habitat where the character spends most time affecting the resistance a character gets to certain climates over others.
    Progression could also be unlocking new tiers to gain resistance to a poison so you could visit areas which were unreachable before.

    Levels are also a disagreement of specifics.Games became so varied and specialized over the years there are other (and in my view better) kinds of levels

    In the worst case scenario ,gear progression can totally trivialize content .Think about all these speed run dungeons where players try to skip paths in a dungeon to get to the loot. Totally ruining it for many new players too.Or how everyone wants to join in on the latest endgame dugeon,while no cat wants to join for the older dungeons.Gear has a huge impact on the relevance of content to players.

    Tralyan said:

    Precisely. Gear progression is the tits.

    Perhaps because its like tits, distracting them from all the rest and the things that really matter
    Like how college students get distracted, not paying attention to what really matters and never making it past lower grades

    It is a lovely comparison,many are obsessed with both and attack when you dare to suggest anything that might cover up the tits a bit 


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 15, 2017 8:14 AM PDT
    • 2056 posts
    August 15, 2017 9:06 AM PDT

    Only on the internet can we go from gear progression in MMOs to suggesting women cover their tits in a single post.

    The irony of your accusation that college students "get distracted, not paying attention to what really matters" while you can barely manage to stay on topic in a single paragraph is pretty hilarious.

    I don't even know why this upsets me so much but damn.


    This post was edited by Liav at August 15, 2017 9:06 AM PDT
    • 290 posts
    August 15, 2017 10:08 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    Now you mention the disagreements are about specifics,Iksar
    Yes I think it is in details.
    I'm not against some form of gear progression(see fragment world item versions suggested a few posts back)
    I do believe gear progression should take a less prominent role in the game
    The games and your character requiring progression in other areas.Like alignment affecting some looks and abilities that become available to the player.
    The habitat where the character spends most time affecting the resistance a character gets to certain climates over others.
    Progression could also be unlocking new tiers to gain resistance to a poison so you could visit areas which were unreachable before.

    Levels are also a disagreement of specifics.Games became so varied and specialized over the years there are other (and in my view better) kinds of levels

    In the worst case scenario ,gear progression can totally trivialize content .Think about all these speed run dungeons where players try to skip paths in a dungeon to get to the loot. Totally ruining it for many new players too.Or how everyone wants to join in on the latest endgame dugeon,while no cat wants to join for the older dungeons.Gear has a huge impact on the relevance of content to players.

    Tralyan said:

    Precisely. Gear progression is the tits.

    Perhaps because its like tits, distracting them from all the rest and the things that really matter
    Like how college students get distracted, not paying attention to what really matters and never making it past lower grades

    It is a lovely comparison,many are obsessed with both and attack when you dare to suggest anything that might cover up the tits a bit 

     

    Here's the thing.  This game isn't going to be the ideal you are setting up.  It may not even be possible to make the game that you want with today's technology.  But even if it is, it is not the game that the target demographic of this game wants.  And you are going to get nothing but disagreement from people that want the game that it is promoted to be.  Telling people that the only reason that they want what they want is because they have hormones or some such is not going to result in anyone changing their minds either.

    I want gear progression.  I'm not a teenager.  I'm pushing 50 years old, I've been married for nearly thirty.  I have seen tits and am not overly distracted by them.  I still like them though.  I like improving the gear on my character but I don't want it to be a rinse and repeat cycle that is bland and gets boring over time.  This is easily handed by a low power progression gradient and multiple viable options and situational options.  I don't need nor even want, at this time a game with no levels and no gear progression.  I don't understand why you're backing a game without these features if it is such a game-breaker for you.  Either way, I would really appreciate it if you stop hijacking nearly every thread on these forums to push your No-Levels/No-Gear Progression agenda.  There are topics on these forums that cover that area.  Use those.  This is about the only one I've seen you make these posts in which it somewhat justified, because this may well be a game-breaker for you.  But, I'm sorry, the game has levels, that has been stated.  And the game will have some sort of gear progression even if we don't know the full detail as of yet.  So, you're simply banging your head against a 1 mile thick steel wall and expecting to break through to the other side without becoming a bloody mess.