I agree fully. Even though I fall into the raiding part of the community I too do not understand expansions which are almost entirely devoted to raid content. I belong to a small part of the overall community and to cater to them/me, or anyone for that matter, almost exclusively is wrong. Unfortunately however, in the end, this is why I inevitably leave MMOs after a year or two.
Im not one to roll alts as I enjoy playing my main and contributing to my guild when I am on. I do usually roll one however to 2 box when things are really quiet as it allows me to get things done I couldnt on my own and I plan on doing the same here. I'm actually really excited to 2 box here just because VR has stated that due to the mechanics it will be extremely difficult and I'm the type that loves challenges like this just to know that I can do it. Of course I would never do it in a group environ of any type.
Anyways.. this usually leaves me waiting for months with nothing to do except wait and help where I can. Again, this is my own fault and no one elses and I know MMOs need to focus on the majority and not so much on individuals.
This is why I am so looking forward to Pantheon. Hopefully the journey takes a lot longer with more challenges along the way. One way I see this happening is through horizontal gameplay like aclimatization to allow you access, like the bridge, or even allow you to effectively fight in those climates. If they make it organic to the game and/or part of the storyline and try to make them seem less like just mechanical blocks Im good with them and from the bridge example it seems like VR is trying to go this route at least some of the time... and hopefully most of the time.
Yeah, I tend to be a serial one-character gamer for exactly the reasons you state. I play my main exclusively until I reach a point at which there's nothing more to do, or there's nothing more to do with the time/energy/resources I personally have available. And then I start an alt. Or start a new account with an eventual two-box candidate.
I'm with Aatu and Feyshtey. Both on restrictions (Organic, fits with the game and doesn't mariginalize a type of player and I'm okay. No hardcoded gear/level restrictions. Let the players sort that out.) and on being a serial one-character gamer. I may, eventually, make an alt or two, for those rare times when my group might need something other than my main, or a second account with a shaman or something to minimally give me buffs before heading out or to box slows or heals if there is no one on; but those things only ever happened years into playing a game and server populations started dwindling.
I think that expansions should have solo (weaker blue /com mobs, like animals that most classes can grind when nobody else is on, etc.), group and raid content in comparable proportions. In addition, at least some BiS should be available from group content/quests. This could be situational BiS, but the point is that Raid players interact with Group players to some degree because not everything they could possibly ever want comes from Raids and they don't even bother with the group content.
I love the idea that someone covered (perhaps in another thread) of a slow itemization power curve with focus on different expansions having gear of similar power tiers but with situationally different stats. So, you conquer some content for physical damage bonuses or another for tanking or healing, etc. Their may be overlap and all that but that we don't have this thing of every 6 months one has to start the grind all over again. One's gears has value for a decent time frame.
And perhaps some areas are difficult, if not impossible to get to/operate in without the gear from another area, etc.
DragonFist said:In addition, at least some BiS should be available from group content/quests. This could be situational BiS, but the point is that Raid players interact with Group players to some degree because not everything they could possibly ever want comes from Raids and they don't even bother with the group content.
Well you are in luck because as I understand it, there will be a lot of good/best gear from grouping as that is the real focus of the game with raiding still having great rewards but not the be all end all you see in most modern MMOs. I imagine limited item slots per class will be covered by raid drops.
Aradune said:Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario. So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only. We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging. Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage. So we do think the rewards should reflect that.
That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid. So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary. So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well. Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.
Iksar said:DragonFist said:In addition, at least some BiS should be available from group content/quests. This could be situational BiS, but the point is that Raid players interact with Group players to some degree because not everything they could possibly ever want comes from Raids and they don't even bother with the group content.
Well you are in luck because as I understand it, there will be a lot of good/best gear from grouping as that is the real focus of the game with raiding still having great rewards but not the be all end all you see in most modern MMOs. I imagine limited item slots per class will be covered by raid drops.
Aradune said:Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario. So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only. We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging. Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage. So we do think the rewards should reflect that.
That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid. So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary. So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well. Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.
Hey Iksar, could you please provide a link to where this quote from Brad comes from? I would really like to read the whole thread it was on, or Blog or...?
Zorkon said:Iksar said:DragonFist said:In addition, at least some BiS should be available from group content/quests. This could be situational BiS, but the point is that Raid players interact with Group players to some degree because not everything they could possibly ever want comes from Raids and they don't even bother with the group content.
Well you are in luck because as I understand it, there will be a lot of good/best gear from grouping as that is the real focus of the game with raiding still having great rewards but not the be all end all you see in most modern MMOs. I imagine limited item slots per class will be covered by raid drops.
Aradune said:Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario. So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only. We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging. Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage. So we do think the rewards should reflect that.
That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid. So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary. So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well. Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.
Hey Iksar, could you please provide a link to where this quote from Brad comes from? I would really like to read the whole thread it was on, or Blog or...?
Here's Brad's full post:
"As mentioned in other posts, the majority of Pantheon's content will be targeting groups. There will be solo content, and there will be raid content, but Pantheon's focus is all about the grouping experience (and by groups, I mean groups of people who interact with each other, who regularly group with the same people, who have formed real friendships, etc. We want to encourage and help people find friends online with whom they can enjoy the game). We don't feel mechanics that just bring together random people to 'do' a dungeon result in the community we are looking to support. Typically the 'group finder' gathers people together, they run through the dungeon, speak infrequently if at all, and then once done, the group members are scattered to the winds. Rarely does this result in lasting, real relationships.
In EQ, groups, community, and real friendships mostly formed organically (e.g. you needed other people, so you found them, and in many cases friendships, guilds, etc. arose from this). With Pantheon, however, we are going to include some features to assist and bolster this essential aspect of community building. In this day and age, especially with many players only experience being these 'dungeon finder' scenarios, we feel that just letting this happen organically isn't going to be enough.
Now, back to loot. Our general philosophy is that people should be rewarded for taking chances and overcoming challenges. Basic risk vs. reward. So the more challenging and difficult the region or encounter, the beter the chance that you'll be rewarded with better loot.
Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario. So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only. We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging. Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage. So we do think the rewards should reflect that.
That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid. So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary. So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well. Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.
We also want to avoid the perception that the 'real' game is only at the 'end game' (e.g. at or near the current level cap). When players perceive that to be the case, many choose to power level themselves or their friends. This results in bypassing low and mid level content, and power leveling is also typically repetative (and thefore often boring), but people will do it anyway if they feel they have to reach the 'end game' as quickly as possible (it's just human nature). They will even do it if they are having less fun in the process (which IMHO is just horrible -- creating a situation where players have to choose between fun and efficiency (perceived or true) is bad(TM)). So we want to make sure there is fun and plentiful content at all levels, including solo, group, and raid oriented content. Yes, we want to see raids in low and mid level zones.
So now you know our goals and our philosophy, but this is definitely an area where we'd love any and all feedback and ideas. If raiding isn't the only source of the 'best' gear, then how do we reward players for taking significant risks in a group setting? Likewise, if great loot can be obtained by grouping, will people still raid? I think this is a great thread, and would love to hear more from you guys.
thanks,
-Brad"
From this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2177/raid-loot/view/page/1
(Brad's post is on page 2)
As long as risk vs reward is adhered to, I'll be happy. As far as data only showing 10-15% of people raiding, to me that sounds like an area for improvement. Raiding has always been my favorite social aspect of MMO's and I hope Pantheon captures the very real audience of players who favor it. WoW statistics showed that over 70% of their players completed raid content ... that's a pretty large sample size.
oneADseven said:As long as risk vs reward is adhered to, I'll be happy. As far as data only showing 10-15% of people raiding, to me that sounds like an area for improvement. Raiding has always been my favorite social aspect of MMO's and I hope Pantheon captures the very real audience of players who favor it. WoW statistics showed that over 70% of their players completed raid content ... that's a pretty large sample size.
yea but is that counting the LFR crap and the watered down easy raids that most people did?
My favorite thing about old school gaming was grinding XP with random people who become friends for hours on end lol
oneADseven said:Yeah but even with the non LFR stuff it was closer to 35%.
Yea but wow was total raid focused, it was grind to max then start raiding... grouping wasn't a big thing. I solo quested most of the time leveling. EQ was great because leveling took a long time, and grouping made it enjoyable, and I chat a lot of groups so made a lot of friends.
I only raided in WoW to get my mythical daggers for my rogue and to help some friends. Other than that all I ever did was PVP and play the market. PVP was the only thing I cared about in that game ... but I did have a ton of fun doing arenas, BG's, RBG's, and stuff like Tol'Barad. Either way I wouldn't say the game was totally raid focused ... the majority of people I interacted with played PVP almost exclusively and I played on a PVE server. At the end of the day, the amount of people who participate in certain kinds of content will most likely be relative to how enjoyable/accessible it is, and what kind of rewards are to be gained. If only 10-15% of an MMO population is raiding, I think that's a dire sign for needed improvement.
Kilsin said:Folks, it is perfectly fine to have a different opinion and to discuss the differences but let's not make it personal or move into arguments over those opinions, if the discussion is going nowhere, agree to disagree and move on, please, continuing these types of arguments creates other arguments, keeps others from interacting out of fear of being attacked or caught up in the mix and it is completely unnecessary as it sets a very negative tone for the whole thread/topic.
Can you sticky this? because that is one of the best posts i have seen in a very long time.
Forum Ethics!!! FTW, Kilsin for Pres lmao
Those that have played the games Brad makes, usually experience a very similar feel when it comes to zones and what to expect with content restrictions. So unless something completely has changed since EQ, VG, etc... i expect there will be way more social aspects involved, and changes can be made anytime if restrictions are a problem. The goal i understood was social, and grouping period.
Also we the players, make or break a game too. We evolve the game the way we want it played too. If we dont like something the Devs find out very quickly. A platform can be designed but in an empty world it is up to the players how the social aspects are handled and what restrictions are worked around.
Example, and remembering this back in SEB days in EQ... you made new friends per group you formed. Sometimes to the point you team up in a guild. You may be called upon and invited due to your abilities as a player. A social bond is met. After time it can be a personal friendship. So yes some restrictions to zones are helpful to me. But i love to raid too, so it has its limits for me.
Remembering this, the only way into the SEB dungeon was to have a SEB key, and the people outside helped those obtain that very key. You could not do it alone at a lower lvl solo... You needed to have a fast character to find the runners, and placements. You could not enter the zone without it.
@ Crazzie
Yup, I remember many of those days in Seb. The good and the bad :)
One thing though: It's worthwhile to point out that the people content to roam the world and explore, and craft, and chat with friends, the vast majority of players IMO, are not the ones screaming bloody murder on the forums about the fact that they have exhausted every ounce of content and demand more raids. These people are the vocal minority, but the volume of thier cries can often give the impression that they are a massive percentage of player opinion.
Back in the old EQ days I doubt that the devs gave too much foresight into building in metrics gathering and reporting functionality. They had an impression of how players would interact with the gameworld, and assumed several things that they freely admit now were completely wrong. I'd be willing to bet that with a couple of decades and a combined multitude of games the team has been party to they will have some great data collection built into the design so that they can accurately assess who is doing what at what rate, and what percentage of the population consumes any particular aspect of rhte game. I doubt they'll ever share that with us, and I dont think they should. But regardless, I hope that they stay true to the design goals and never deviate from the stated intent for 75%+ to be group, and the rest and mix of solo/raid. While there well may be millions of players globally that want to do little else but raid, there are millions more than just want to enjoy a group-oriented game, and they just don't have a lot of options available to them. Define the target audience and stick with it. Anything else would feel like a betrayal to the audience that came here embracing that which was advertised.
I think the target audience has been defined for Pantheon:
1.1 Who is the targeted player (demographic) base for this game, and why?
"While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. Pantheon is first and foremost a deeply social game. Players who desire cooperative play, working together as a team, and the shared experiences that result from playing with other real people to overcome challenges will enjoy Pantheon. Players who want an MMO to be their home and to interact with communities and player-driven economies will find what they are looking for in Pantheon. Why? We feel that, at least recently, the MMO players who enjoy these elements have been orphaned. In fact, the Visionary Realms team feels they are part of this orphaned group. And it doesn’t take a lot of research to find countless articles, blogs, and posts full of players looking for the kind of experience we aim to offer in Pantheon."
I have never seen an official statement that suggests an exact number on what percentage of the game is being made for groups, raiding, or solo. I did find this though:
"9.1 Will you be able to raid in Pantheon?
Yes, there will be Raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding."
"Majority" could be anywhere between 51-99%. None of that matters to me anyway ... what matters is the bolded section in regards to the target audience. I honestly don't care if 75% of the game is built around grouping. I'm pretty sure that was around the number I saw in EQOA/FFXI and it worked perfectly fine in both of those games. But if you want to stick true to your target audience, as it has been defined, there seems to be an emphasis on deeply social/cooperative play, working together as a team, interacting with communities, etc. So for the guilds out there who have large teams assembled, who are eventually looking forward to playing together as a team, and interacting with other communities (guilds, crafting chambers, tradesmen, etc) -- I think it's important that raiding be considered another area of the genre that should be evolved. I played Vanguard ... loved it, but saw my hopes of sticking around slip away because there just wasn't enough raid content available. I don't remember anybody in my guild screaming bloody murder on the forums ... we just left the game and never came back.
I really hope the 10-15% data isn't reflective of Vanguard post APW ... by that time, the game had already lost a large chunk of it's raiding player base. It was incredibly difficult for guilds to stick around in the early phases of that game. The majority of raid content was broken ... members were stuck without a thing to do because of the class they played (raiding goes a long way toward ensuring that all players have a role in a cooperative teamwork environment) -- we basically felt like red-headed step children. We built our castle and that was pretty fun ... but within a week of it being built, we abandoned it forever. It become a ghostly shell of a community that once was ... a fragment of the discombobulated raiding scene that had gone incredibly wrong. Raiding should not be an after-thought in Pantheon. When the game comes out, raids should already be pre-tested and rendered as fully functional and itemized. Raiding is an absolutely integral piece of the puzzle as it pertains to accomodating the target demographic for this game.
Again ... I would like to point out how over 70% of WoW players actively raided, and how the majority of content in that game was built around grouping rather than raiding. LFR obviously had a large impact on how many people participated in raids, but it goes to show that when raid content became more accessible, more people bought in. LFR also boosted the standard raiding amounts as well ... it was used as an entry level raid of sorts to get some feet wet ... many players would dabble, find it enjoyable, and then follow-up with the traditional non-LFR raiding game. This isn't a complaint ... I'm not going to argue with someone on what VR's vision for Pantheon is. I will say, though, that I find it extremely hard to fathom how only 10-15% of a target market that is laser-focused on cooperative play and teamwork would actively raid. Maybe those numbers are from another game where raiding was an after thought ... but in WoW which has the largest sample size of this genre, it has been demonstrated that when raid content is accessible, the majority of players will have a vested interest in participating. I am not advocating to copy WoW ... but take a look at their numbers and ask how they were achieved. Maybe the 10-15% turns to 20-25% in Pantheon ... or maybe even 30-35% ... who knows?
Either way, I refuse to accept 10-15% as a viable number for what should be expected in Pantheon. If the content is available, fun, and rewarding ... there is absolutely no reason why that number shouldn't blossom into something much higher. This is all my personal opinion. I am a biased gamer who places a very high value on raiding as it has proven to be the best facilitator for accomplishing many of the tenets that this game is being built around. I understand that plenty of people will disagree with me and that is perfectly fine. I don't care if someone prefers to solo, group, or raid. To each their own ... but when I think "big picture" for this game, raiding will be important. Most of us have seen the "Bring Friends" video ... now imagine that scenario played through again, but rather than 1 guy bringing back 5 friends to kill the arch lich ... it's 20 people coming back as 75+ to conquer a dragon. The vision is the same ... it's just amplified. When I think "deeply social" ... more = better. I'm looking forward to making a video just as I described, as soon as possible. I'm sure we won't be able to share gameplay footage until open-beta ... but I hope by the time we get there, large scale raiding will be available for testing.
oneADseven said:I think the target audience has been defined for Pantheon:
1.1 Who is the targeted player (demographic) base for this game, and why?
"While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. Pantheon is first and foremost a deeply social game. Players who desire cooperative play, working together as a team, and the shared experiences that result from playing with other real people to overcome challenges will enjoy Pantheon. Players who want an MMO to be their home and to interact with communities and player-driven economies will find what they are looking for in Pantheon. Why? We feel that, at least recently, the MMO players who enjoy these elements have been orphaned. In fact, the Visionary Realms team feels they are part of this orphaned group. And it doesn’t take a lot of research to find countless articles, blogs, and posts full of players looking for the kind of experience we aim to offer in Pantheon."
I have never seen an official statement that suggests an exact number on what percentage of the game is being made for groups, raiding, or solo. I did find this though:
"9.1 Will you be able to raid in Pantheon?
Yes, there will be Raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding."
"Majority" could be anywhere between 51-99%. None of that matters to me anyway ... what matters is the bolded section in regards to the target audience. I honestly don't care if 75% of the game is built around grouping. I'm pretty sure that was around the number I saw in EQOA/FFXI and it worked perfectly fine in both of those games. But if you want to stick true to your target audience, as it has been defined, there seems to be an emphasis on deeply social/cooperative play, working together as a team, interacting with communities, etc. So for the guilds out there who have large teams assembled, who are eventually looking forward to playing together as a team, and interacting with other communities (guilds, crafting chambers, tradesmen, etc) -- I think it's important that raiding be considered another area of the genre that should be evolved. I played Vanguard ... loved it, but saw my hopes of sticking around slip away because there just wasn't enough raid content available. I don't remember anybody in my guild screaming bloody murder on the forums ... we just left the game and never came back.
I really hope the 10-15% data isn't reflective of Vanguard post APW ... by that time, the game had already lost a large chunk of it's raiding player base. It was incredibly difficult for guilds to stick around in the early phases of that game. The majority of raid content was broken ... members were stuck without a thing to do because of the class they played (raiding goes a long way toward ensuring that all players have a role in a cooperative teamwork environment) -- we basically felt like red-headed step children. We built our castle and that was pretty fun ... but within a week of it being built, we abandoned it forever. It become a ghostly shell of a community that once was ... a fragment of the discombobulated raiding scene that had gone incredibly wrong. Raiding should not be an after-thought in Pantheon. When the game comes out, raids should already be pre-tested and rendered as fully functional and itemized. Raiding is an absolutely integral piece of the puzzle as it pertains to accomodating the target demographic for this game.
Again ... I would like to point out how over 70% of WoW players actively raided, and how the majority of content in that game was built around grouping rather than raiding. LFR obviously had a large impact on how many people participated in raids, but it goes to show that when raid content became more accessible, more people bought in. LFR also boosted the standard raiding amounts as well ... it was used as an entry level raid of sorts to get some feet wet ... many players would dabble, find it enjoyable, and then follow-up with the traditional non-LFR raiding game. This isn't a complaint ... I'm not going to argue with someone on what VR's vision for Pantheon is. I will say, though, that I find it extremely hard to fathom how only 10-15% of a target market that is laser-focused on cooperative play and teamwork would actively raid. Maybe those numbers are from another game where raiding was an after thought ... but in WoW which has the largest sample size of this genre, it has been demonstrated that when raid content is accessible, the majority of players will have a vested interest in participating. I am not advocating to copy WoW ... but take a look at their numbers and ask how they were achieved. Maybe the 10-15% turns to 20-25% in Pantheon ... or maybe even 30-35% ... who knows?
Either way, I refuse to accept 10-15% as a viable number for what should be expected in Pantheon. If the content is available, fun, and rewarding ... there is absolutely no reason why that number shouldn't blossom into something much higher. This is all my personal opinion. I am a biased gamer who places a very high value on raiding as it has proven to be the best facilitator for accomplishing many of the tenets that this game is being built around. I understand that plenty of people will disagree with me and that is perfectly fine. I don't care if someone prefers to solo, group, or raid. To each their own ... but when I think "big picture" for this game, raiding will be important. Most of us have seen the "Bring Friends" video ... now imagine that scenario played through again, but rather than 1 guy bringing back 5 friends to kill the arch lich ... it's 20 people coming back as 75+ to conquer a dragon. The vision is the same ... it's just amplified. When I think "deeply social" ... more = better. I'm looking forward to making a video just as I described, as soon as possible. I'm sure we won't be able to share gameplay footage until open-beta ... but I hope by the time we get there, large scale raiding will be available for testing.
Well I agree, we will need raid content, and a good amount of it... whats the point in growing a guild and have 20-30 close active members, when you can only even play with 5-6 at a time. Raiding needs to have a lot more focus than simply being an after thought. Raiding IMO needs to be a big part of this game. It's important to many people, and when you want people to cooperate and work together, nothing accomplishes that more than raiding. It lets people come together on a much larger scale.
While I love the fact the game will be focused more on grouping rather than solo play. I still hope they give serious thought to Raids.
And when they mean groups play what are they talking? Will they use the WoW dungeon style where a group runs through it, then it's over? Or will it be the Better (IMO) way that EQ did, where it's, here's a zone, a named spawns here, camp it. I'll be honest in that I only found pantheon a short time ago, But the vision and EQ style is something I hope they stick close to it. While improving the things EQ got wrong, like having every raid be open world.
But again... raiding is important to any MMO. Star Trek Online has no raids... its only group content... so people spend months getting better items and ships, simply to get a high DPS number on the context then endlessly replay. Once I realized that, well... I haven't been back on STO since.
While end game content shouldn't be the only focus of a game, It definitely needs to be an important issue.
P.s Why does this thing create text that I deleted already when your auto correcting!!! lol
The problem with raid numbers is how WoW for example handles raids these days, especially with LFR. I honestly think LFR was added so Blizzard could keep justifying spending so much time and resources on raids and keep focusing almost their entire endgame on it. It's hardly "raiding" and much more just a theme park story ride with a gift shop at the end and personally I think easier modes cheapen the intended difficulty modes quite a lot. From a topic on raid % on MMO champ:
MMOC usually gathers this data and displays it on the main page, but they haven't done so for Highmaul yet. They did a few during MoP, here's one for Siege from May: stats.
Roughly 70% of players participate in LFR, with 50% completing it. 40% tried Flex, with under 20% finishing it. Normal was between 25-13%, and Heroic was 10-1%. Note that Siege lasted longer than any other raid tier, so it's participation is significantly higher than others. If you look at WoWprogress numbers, at most 10% of players have downed Kargath on Heroic (30604 x 30 = 918,120, slightly under 10% of the 10 million subs). Mythic is easier to pin down, being on a fixed raid size: 8815 x 20 = 176,300 Mythic raiders, which is under 2% of the playerbase.
It's interesting to look back at older raiding stats and see how things have changed, or, in this case, stayed the same. If you add up the number of guilds/players who downed the first boss in ICC (Marrowgar), you get at most 1.4 million players - slightly more than 10% of the playerbase at the time (12 million), although because this counts both 10 and 25 kills, many are probably the same players.
It seems that the audience for "Heroic" (previously Normal) level raiding remains about 10% of the playerbase, while the "Normal" (previously Flex) has increased the overall pool of raiders by a significant margin. However, without the addition of LFR, raiders would still be a minority, and 30% of players don't raid at all, even on LFR.
I've read from many places that in vanilla WoW raid numbers were about 5%, up to around 10% in Burning Crusade. The jump is likely because raid size dropped from 40 man to 10 and 25 mans which would have just about doubled that initial 5%. So I'd say that actual raiding still remains about where Brad said, possibly less the more players required to form a raid.
Having 75% of the population raiding isn't a "problem" -- it has tons of guilds/communities actively playing together. Even without LFR, data seems to suggest that approximately 40% of players have completed a decent chunk of standard raiding material. Even when it comes to the hardest raid content in the game, it hovered around 5%. Either way, again, I see raiding as an opportunity for Pantheon. People are so quick to jump in and remind everybody how the majority of the game is built around grouping ... great ... but raiding is and always will be important for the long term and overall health of the game.
oneADseven said:Having 75% of the population raiding isn't a "problem" -- it has tons of guilds/communities actively playing together. Even without LFR, data seems to suggest that approximately 40% of players have completed a decent chunk of standard raiding material. Even when it comes to the hardest raid content in the game, it hovered around 5%. Either way, again, I see raiding as an opportunity for Pantheon. People are so quick to jump in and remind everybody how the majority of the game is built around grouping ... great ... but raiding is and always will be important for the long term and overall health of the game.
yea I agree, if no thought is given to raiding, then why build guilds with more than like 10-12 members? If I can only hang out with a small group of people without us all coming together to do a raid, whats the point?
I myself with probably spend most of my time grouping with the friends I make, but I still want to get a large group of us together to do a fun, well planned out, and balanced raid. Not some after thought someone slapped together.
Wow Opened up raiding and got more people interested in raiding, Back in EQ I almost never raided, I spent all my time Grouping to lvl, camping mobs with friends or helping people (camps, groups, CR's whatever was needed). I had years of fun doing that, I never cared about having the best gear and the game was still fun every time I logged in. And honestly having only open world raids made getting a boss to down very hard. But wow and FF14 let me experience raiding and I joined raiding guilds and had lots of fun raiding.
So while I love that if I want I can just go back to my EQ play style, I still have a love for raiding and hope that the raids will be well thought out, and fun. A challenge without being impossible. I think that's all anyone really wants in this conversation.
I think that's all anyone really wants in this conversation.
Would love to see the game Balanced for 65-70% Grouping and 30-35% Raids. I left out solo cuz I'll probably be a cleric.. and unless they start doing those luclin proc hammers clerics had... ill never be solo ^_^
I agree, raiding is important to have in the game. However I don't think having easy mode raids is a worthwhile or good idea, they should all be rather difficult save for maybe one introductory raid.
Is it really considered raiding when it is just a glorified bigger group finder? It's like someone taking a plane across the country today (LFR) compared to someone attempting the Oregon Trail in 1820 (intended difficulty raid). I don't believe the kind of content you want in the game is anything less than challenging raids. I don't believe for a second that LFR/easier raids leads more people to becoming raiders as it is a very very different experience. You can give people all the ketchup you want and it won't make them any more likely to like tomatoes.
Anyway this is going way off topic; some content restrictions/gates/blocks are fine. Item level should not be one of them.
Nymphey said:
Will they use the WoW dungeon style where a group runs through it, then it's over? Or will it be the Better (IMO) way that EQ did, where it's, here's a zone, a named spawns here, camp it. I'll be honest in that I only found pantheon a short time ago, But the vision and EQ style is something I hope they stick close to it. While improving the things EQ got wrong, like having every raid be open world.
Exactly! I never liked WoW-style raids and instances. Running around Crushbone for hours at a time over a period of several days or weeks was a million times more fun than a linear dungeon like (insert any WoW dungeon). You had player-player interactions, trains, you met lots of interesting people, made friends, etc..
I have never said anything about easy mode raids ... I have only mentioned their accessibility. When you consider EQ, how many horror stories have there been as it relates to the denial of content? There should absolutely be contested content in the game, but there should also be a mix of other stuff that doesen't require the good ol' fashion poop socking. That's basically my point ... if only 10% percent of people raided in EQ, maybe that's all that could be supported based on the content available? I'm sure a ton of people were turned off by the idea of waking up at 3 AM to kill something, just like there were plenty who never even had a chance to raid because the mobs they needed for key access or whatever were perma-camped by someone else.
Anyway, as far as my personal preference goes, I want a ton of extremely challenging contested content. That would be my bread and butter ... but that's selfish ... so any comment I have ever made about making raid content accessible (see hyper/ghost concept) it was purely for the overall health of the game. I'm perfectly fine competing and taking 3 AM phone calls and whatever else is necessary and I do hope to engage in that sort of thing in Pantheon ... but what I don't do is just accept the idea that only 10-15% of the population for THIS game is going to be interested in raiding. Look at the tenets ... look at the catch phrase ... everything about this game screams large scale teamwork/cooperation and raiding is an excellent way to facilitate that.
I understand raiding is on the back burner for now because everything else needs to be balanced beforehand, but I never hear anything exciting about raiding. What ways can Pantheon evolve it? How can raiding be leveraged to better accomplish the vision/plan that has been laid out for this game? There are tons of ways to do it ... I just haven't heard much on this front and any time people start talking about it, it always turns into a conversation about hardcore vs casual, forced vs optional, blah blah blah. Like I said ... there are epic videos to be had of large scale raiding ... I will be extremely focused on producing them as soon as we're allowed. That's the area I enjoy the most, and what I will promote to friends and outsiders.
I look forward to seeing the same effort/passion that has gone into all of the other ideas/concepts/systems/features for this game and see what raiding becomes ... there is no reason Pantheon couldn't be the best raiding game ever made ... I want to see that happen. The game can still be primarily group focused ... but whatever raid content is available, it should be top notch and capture an epic scale of comradery that we haven't seen in a long time. That will get the people going ... period. My genuine concern is based on my experience with Vanguard. I feel like the same mentality was adopted, and that group content was the focus, and with raiding being the red headed step child it never got the attention it deserved to be fleshed out and worth a damn at launch. It ruined the game for me and I really hope that VR places a much larger emphasis on how important raiding will be in Pantheon than what I saw happen with Vanguard. I loved everything about that game except that there was only 1 raid zone (Rahz Inkur, and it wasn't large scale at all ... from what I remember most bosses were 2 group) and that all contested content dropped lobster claws. Let's say the contested content actually worked and Rahz Inkur was scaled for more groups/raids ... I still don't think it would be enough. I want to see multiple zones that are of the same quality/size of APW. I don't know if that's being greedy and asking for too much but I know it would keep me and a guild of 100+ players happy for a long time ... and that's what I care about most.
Iksar said:I've read from many places that in vanilla WoW raid numbers were about 5%, up to around 10% in Burning Crusade. The jump is likely because raid size dropped from 40 man to 10 and 25 mans which would have just about doubled that initial 5%. So I'd say that actual raiding still remains about where Brad said, possibly less the more players required to form a raid.