Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Content restrictions: Do they need to go?

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    • 409 posts
    July 23, 2017 12:43 PM PDT

    *deleted*


    This post was edited by Nimryl at August 23, 2017 5:27 AM PDT
    • 189 posts
    July 23, 2017 1:19 PM PDT

    It's hard to really determine what is best for a group of players. With games like WoW I think it works for the more casual players. Plus, the death penalty is suppose to be harsh in this game. So accidently walking into a dungeon specifically meant for people of a certain level will just make that penalty annoying. It SHOULD be more of a warning rather than a restriction, IMO. Some people are more than capable of dealing with stuff that is naturally meant for players at a higher level. That helps determine how good you are or your group/group coordination is.

    The biggest restriction I had was in Rift. Get back into Rift today, you have restrictions on dungeons. Must be lvl 60, must have this much wisdom, this many hit points, this much hit power, this much healing power, etc... But the content/dungeons below that are almost dead because the game is pretty dead. Everyone levels with each other and it prevents any new players from having a good experience in the game. You have to give up an eyeball and a finger (real money or loads of farming plat to buy good gear) to even bother trying those dungeons. And it was the same way with raids too!!!

    People don't like the idea of others being carried. But lets face it, when you have a game like Pantheon who have classes like the Enchanter who absolutely WILL NOT be at the top of the damage meters (if someone bothers to make one), you're going to have people being "carried" in a sense. But each class will bring something to offer to each raid group that will most likely be needed.

    I think Visionary Realms is on the right path for a different version of MMO being created today. It won't be anything like the MMO's being made today. With that being said, there's still testing to be done as well. So if they do or don't add something in that you do or do not like, you'll be able to give feedback just like the rest of the community. And if they care about the players they are making this game for, then they will listen. :)

    • 125 posts
    July 23, 2017 1:54 PM PDT

    two things to take into account... game mechanics and the community

    VR has stated that things will be needed to accompliish certain content in the game. The obvious example is the climate playing a role in game play. If you do not have the proper gear/potions you will become handicapped in that evniron. I would bet this plays into raiding and higher content even more so. They have also stated these resists will need to be built on and improved as one progresses so in this regards the game will be limited by your definition.

    Along th same line... hit points, manna, and attact power I would think would have to come into play so once again, without the proper gear to reach these for your class it will only be more difficult to accomplish. I would imagine a severe lack in resistances or manna/hitpoints may well result in  death or almost complete ineffectiveness of the player so no matter what the skill of the player it wont much matter.

    In the end it will come down to the community, guild or raid however. It will be up to them to decide what is sufficient and what is not and how much of a handycap they are willing to bear. I know for myself as a guild leader and/or raid leader I would only take the best, most equipped players when doing new content. As the content and its engagements became more familiar we would bring along less equipped people and when it hit farm mode we would take everyone. Not all guilds or raids will function like this so again... in the end it will be up to the raid/guild to decide who they are willing to bring.

    Just to add one more thing... keep in mind CRs may well at times be long and difficult. I for one prefer to keep wipes to a minimum as Im sure they will happen quite often enough, especially on new content, even with fully geared players with stats above that required for that level or encounter.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at July 23, 2017 10:49 PM PDT
    • 1434 posts
    July 23, 2017 10:24 PM PDT

    Progression has always been about gating to some degree. Any game with levels naturally has content lower levels cannot participate in. Maybe they can find a way to get to the zone, maybe they can't. In EQ, some raid zones required keys which had no level requirement to obtain. Other zones like the planes had a hard coded gate that required you be above level 46.

    For progression to feel meaningful, it will inevitably mean players gaining the ability to go somewhere or do something that was previously not possible. As long as they make it feel natural and every zone doesn't give you some generic "You're not high enough level to enter this area", I am not at all concerned about restricted content.

    If everyone is entitled to everything, your achievements become meaningless.

    • 409 posts
    July 24, 2017 12:50 AM PDT

    *deleted*


    This post was edited by Nimryl at August 23, 2017 5:27 AM PDT
    • 542 posts
    July 24, 2017 4:29 AM PDT

    Progression has always been very individual,while MMOs are supposed to be about community

    I remember in dragonfire there were rites All heroes are tasked to liberate villages.
    you could travel everywhere on the main island from the start of the game.

    So lets take "the rites of passage" idea and apply it for the whole community ,as mutual community world-missions that come in episodes
    Maybe this form of community progression is what could keep community together without content restriction
    ;it would no longer be about individual progression solely;the whole community has to work towards the same goals(like liberating villages along the coasts)
    Episodes that last a few months that have everyone work for the same cause,to meet the objective/goals that are active during that summer/fall/winter episode.

    1 it makes players value the presence and participation of other players as progression is linked to the performance of the community(rather than the individual progression you'd otherwise see,but that doesn't mean
    we couldn't have a healthy mix of personal and community progression)
    There is no rush to endgame raid instances,this content of epic proportions is always available for everyone as these episodes are global events.
    The content of the moment matters most too.

    2 Episodes allow to set in motion events .That means new content (like the content of the other world fragments with new civilizations and deities)
    can be introduced in a way that feels natural after these long global events are over.Some kind of mayor event;a natural transition from old to a new community goal.
    This means we get a feeling that content restriction are lifted,
    but we still get to maintain meaningful progression at the same time.And see how the world changes based on if the previous goal succeeded or failed

    3 Everyone has to work for the same achievements,they are in it together with community progression
    The design philosophy in this case "It is amazing what you can achieve when you work together,things that are impossible alone"
    So no ,everyone wouldn't be entitled to everything and achievements are meaningful;players can talk about their adventures 
    Strong relations are formed because it is all about what you've been through together.

    4 With community progression it is easier to play an evil role.Lets say liberating villages is the active community goal.
    Leaving these villagers to uncertain fate(or even actively luring invaders to them) is what works against the community goal


    This post was edited by Fluffy at July 24, 2017 4:44 AM PDT
    • 1281 posts
    July 24, 2017 6:33 AM PDT

    If you design a zone with level 50 mobs in it, only players of the appropriate level are going to fight there. If a zone requires you to have a certain amount of HP or gear, only people with the appropriate gear are going to be able to fight there. I do not see this as a flaw in MMO design.

    If a noobie that is under-equiped wants to join the raid, I do not see that as something that the developers need to force. That would be hand holding.

     

     

    • 409 posts
    July 24, 2017 6:40 AM PDT

    *deleted*


    This post was edited by Nimryl at August 23, 2017 5:28 AM PDT
    • 542 posts
    July 24, 2017 6:47 AM PDT

    Its quite simple really.
    Anyone in a position of power thinks they deserve more than common people,or in this case "noobies".
    Just look at the wages and bonuses politicians arrange for themselves ,while they consider a starvation wage normal for commoners :D

    • 12 posts
    July 24, 2017 6:58 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    Its quite simple really.
    Anyone in a position of power thinks they deserve more than common people,or in this case "noobies".
    Just look at the wages and bonuses politicians arrange for themselves ,while they consider a starvation wage normal for commoners :D

     

    On the flip side, if someone put in more time to gear up their character for the content compared to someone who didn't, why wouldn't they get better treatment than the guy who didn't?

    • 542 posts
    July 24, 2017 7:07 AM PDT

    how about equal treatment? Individual progression always causes us to compare ourselves to others.
    And that is one thing that is wrong with these multiplayers that are supposed to be about community;players are not into together,they are not working towards
    common goals.These common goals could still be as hard as individual goals to achieve.

    • 3852 posts
    July 24, 2017 7:32 AM PDT

    Preventing people without a certain level of gear from doing a dungeon has two primary reasons.

    One is to keep people from progressing too fast especially at level cap. Your friends/guildmates aren't allowed to let you bypass "tier one" and "tier two" by gearing you up directly for "tier three". This presupposes gear that binds on acquisition, of course.

    The other one is to keep people woefully undergeared for a dungeon from dragging down their groupmates and causing a wipe. This makes sense in a game with a "modern" groupfinder where groups are assembled by the game from people queueing.

    If Panteon doesn't use that type of groupfinder there is no real reason to restrict access to dungeons by quality of your gear other than to prevent rapid progress and require grinding. To keep players from getting to the most difficult content TOO fast and rapidly getting bored and leaving. Having played games like EQ2 and Rift where you can get to level cap in days and get fairly good gear for the harder "endgame" content fairly quickly I can understand why it may make sense to prevent this.

    • 483 posts
    July 24, 2017 8:09 AM PDT

    I don't want any artifical restrictions, let everyone enter the dungeons and try it out, if they're in a high level zone they'll soon understand that the content is impossible at their current level.

    However, I would love to see a lot of attument quest chains/Key and resist gear, set in place to avoid players bypassing hard content, or bypassing entire tiers of content.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at July 24, 2017 8:10 AM PDT
    • 542 posts
    July 24, 2017 8:37 AM PDT

    In a game where we are supposed to embrace community , I've always wondered why these socially harmful systems keep getting adopted
    Players constantly judging other players ,not on what they can do but on the NRs. Even in guilds nowadays they won't play together with members that haven't reached a certain gearscore;now where is the sense of community in that?
    Is winning the most important,even if relations get tense,the quality and the enjoyment of the game totally gets diminished?
    What I've noticed over the years in multiplayer games, is that players often don't have patience anymore to get invested with other players


    This post was edited by Fluffy at July 24, 2017 8:39 AM PDT
    • 281 posts
    July 24, 2017 9:50 AM PDT

    I am very much against gear/level restrictions.  I do mind and even enjoy gating via quests and keys.  As long as any player or group of players has the opportunity to do this gating content and only their ability to handle the content blocks them.

    I dislike auto-group finders.  Partially because one looses the group effort part of things.  With Auto-group finders, if there is a level/gear restriction, it keeps you out but even if the mechanic isn't built into the game, groups disband instantly on someone being slightly below the community accepted minimums for said dungeons or they vote-kick players for these reasons.

    It is anti-community, anti-grouping.  It was much more fun to find a group of people and work through content and discover for yourselves "we dont' have the dps for that boss" or the "tanks take its hits" and then work out how to solve that.  Normally, that would mean grinding more XP or finding if there was an item upgrade would make the content more doable and then going to camp that and come back once that was done.

    Not anymore.  Even guilds do the auto-group finders.  They bring one or two of the package but you just run through some instanced dungeon on fast mode like it is Diablo, over and over to farm it.  The games then have to add quests that give huge XP and item bonuses to get people to do "randoms" on a daily basis so that the queues for these dungeons don't completely die out.

    It is all a limping effort to hold interest.  It only works for so long.  And today, MMOs have higher turn-over than fastfood joints.

    • 399 posts
    July 24, 2017 10:49 AM PDT

    In EQ1 there were zones that restricted you from entering just for being too low of a level.  I know that fear was restricted but only later as I remember a level 1's being in that zone.

    For example, to go into Unrest, you had to be level 4 or 6 or something. If you tried to go in below that level, it would port you to the BB/Dagnor Cauldron zone in point.

    Now I am not advocating there should or should not be a level, item or gear restriction in any zone but, while somehwat annoying, the keying system totally worked.  There were many zones that you had to get keyed for to gain access to.  I liked it because you could only get there after doing work which meant you deserved to go there.  I really, really hated the fact that after a while, they allowed anyone to go into that zone. 

    I understand that once you have done the quest, task, gained some knowledge, whatever to gain access to a zone, it was tedious to have to do it again on an alt but here's where Progeny could come in.  There's no reason one character cannot pass a key or knowledge about how to access a zone to their progeny so that would eliminate the need to redo it. The only caveat would be that only one character per account can make use of this key at a time (to prevent gold farmers etc) unless you do the quest or whatever on each character.

    One of the best things of keying was that people would help you get that key.  Of course if you had a bad rep, you pretty much were screwed.  I remember my son had a pretty bad rep and at the higher levels (50's+) he found it harder and hard to get a group and he did not get any help.  Eventually, he rolled another character to get away from his bad rep.

    • 12 posts
    July 24, 2017 12:21 PM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    In a game where we are supposed to embrace community , I've always wondered why these socially harmful systems keep getting adopted
    Players constantly judging other players ,not on what they can do but on the NRs. Even in guilds nowadays they won't play together with members that haven't reached a certain gearscore;now where is the sense of community in that?
    Is winning the most important,even if relations get tense,the quality and the enjoyment of the game totally gets diminished?
    What I've noticed over the years in multiplayer games, is that players often don't have patience anymore to get invested with other players

     

    If that's the kind of game that is being sought after, you'd most likely be better off going for a cooperative game that doesn't have levels or gear. Levels and gear represent progression towards a certain end point. They aren't made to dismiss players. But at the same time, if enemies have certain stats and you need X stats to beat them, then bringing someone who has less than X won't help anyone. I don't think they should be locked out, but I don't think people should have to go out of their way to bring them either.

    • 542 posts
    July 24, 2017 1:08 PM PDT

    zazabar said:

    If that's the kind of game that is being sought after, you'd most likely be better off going for a cooperative game that doesn't have levels or gear.

    "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs.
    From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play"

    I'll be right at home here <3 Thats why I got invested in this game in the first place.
    Levels can be accommodated to fit the vision of Pantheon.Like the episodes that come with community wide world missions I mentioned earlier

    zazabar said:

    Levels and gear represent progression towards a certain end point.

    it is exactly why it would be for the best to get rid of traditional levels and major gear importance;
    "in order to allow players to spend meaningful time in each area" and in order to "embrace community"

    Levels and gear aren't initially designed to dismiss players,but they cause players to dismiss others who they deem 'not ready' for certain content.
    It causes other players to be very judgemental,which in turn causes players to never feel at home and accepted in the community


    This post was edited by Fluffy at July 24, 2017 1:09 PM PDT
    • 281 posts
    July 24, 2017 2:34 PM PDT

    No matter what method of progression a game chooses, people will use it to judge the readiness of other players.  It isn't a particularly fun part of gaming but it is a fact of life.  And, truthfully, if you don't the ability to do enough heals or tank enough damage or do enough dps or control enough mobs, then you won't be able to do the content involved.  And people that want to do that  content will try to weed out those that can't do it.

    That said, when the main method of finding a group is a queue, you just vote-kick or quit and re-join the queue because you don't know who those idiots were anyway.  But whe you've built relationships with people, you work out how to do this content together, rather than just jump ship or kick others from the ship because this was supposed to just be a 20 minute run and these noobs are wasting my time.

    Where as in EQ1 and hopefully in Pantheon, you have built up some friends and time allows, you head out and do content together.  And when your friends can't be on, you head out to where you want to hunt and yell "LFG" in the zone and find a group that matches via communication and you aren't likely to be kicked from that group simply for a gear ratio (though maybe they looked at that before answering you but that's better than the vote-kick after joining method).  And maybe you make new friends making you future options wider.

    So, in the end, I wouldn't want to try and stop players from judging other players, because you just can't.  But I don't want some game mechanic to prevents me from even getting to the zone and asking based solely on m gear or level.  If someone can make it there and they are too low, they'll die a lot solo.  So what?  Or maybe they'll yell, "Lvl 5 LFG for God of Hate Camp" over and over, even after being politely and not so politely told that they'll be one-shotted by the AE alone.  So what?  Worse case scenario is you have to put them on /ignore.

    But if I an my group of friends have a strong group that knows what it is doing and can handle stuff a few levels above our grade, then so be it.  And I'd be glad that I didn't have to wait until I got that last couple of bubbles of XP.  And maybe, we just wipe and some other group takes the camp while we re-group.  Oh well...

    • 125 posts
    July 24, 2017 3:44 PM PDT

    Again, VR has stated that things like the climatization system will play a role in the game and players will need to upgrade it as they level to move on and be effective in the more extreme climate zones. 

    They have also stated that gear will not be limited and yes a level 5 player can use a level 50 sword in some cases BUT they will not have the skill to use it to its maximum effect which to me means sure you will have the big bright flashy sword but its not going to hit for more than a top end piece appropriate for your level.

    They may well let you into higher content zones but again... can you even make it there and what are your chances of survival once you leave the zonein.

    Ultimately it will be up to the community, raid, guild, or group to decide if they are willing to take a skilled player several levels short of optimum and with iffy gear for the content they are attempting while keeping in mind new content will be extremely challenging, death will have meaning, wipes will result in CRs which may well be long and difficult depending on how far you have gotten, and the finite time we all have to play.

    There will always be guilds, raids, and groups to whom this is unacceptable and there will always be those more fun and socially orientated who will be happy to have people like this along.

    VR has stated that things relating to player interactions they want to leave in the hands of the community to solve and I agree with this. I'm personally on the side that you need to be effective at a base level both relating to gear and skill before venturing into the more difficult content but that is me and I know full well there are just as many if not more on the other side of the spectrum. Then again I have always been guild orientated and have chosen guilds which suite my playstyle and ingame ethics. Once found that is where I keep my focus and rarely involve myself with the community at large... at least on my main.


    This post was edited by Aatu at July 24, 2017 3:51 PM PDT
    • 542 posts
    July 24, 2017 4:22 PM PDT

    We will never stop people from judging.But the choice of progression system affects on which foundation other players are judged.
    So I believe the method of progression a game chooses ,makes a big difference.

    DragonFist said:


    when the main method of finding a group is a queue, you just vote-kick or quit and re-join the queue because you don't know who those idiots were anyway.  But whe you've built relationships with people, you work out how to do this content together, rather than just jump ship or kick others from the ship because this was supposed to just be a 20 minute run and these noobs are wasting my time.

    Isn't it funny that with the traditional level and gear importance it always is about "whats in it for myself" 
    And what do you expect when progression only relates to yourself;your character progressing.Indeed they think to themselves "who were those idiots anyway" "those noobs are wasting my time"
    While in reality,those "noobs" are the future of the community.They will be needed to keep it together.
    So can't we have a progression system where we can accept all players?(and where it is about our quality time, instead of "my time")
    Where everyone's contribution is valued.With community progession ,we'd embrace community.Working towards a common goal,every contribution towards achieving that goal valued.


    *A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.

    With collective community progression ,we'll always get to celebrate our accomplishments together.
    Because it would be impossible to accomplish alone,we'd have the greatest sense of accomplishment; "it is amazing what we can do together"

    *A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.*

    When we are in it together to progress , we encourage and emphasize with the other players to do well,accept them .
    Instead of rejecting them as noobs that are useless to us with our individual character progression that only concerns ourselves
    You get back what you give.

     


    This post was edited by Fluffy at July 24, 2017 4:47 PM PDT
    • 1281 posts
    July 24, 2017 5:32 PM PDT

    Nimryl said:

    bigdogchris said:

    If you design a zone with level 50 mobs in it, only players of the appropriate level are going to fight there. If a zone requires you to have a certain amount of HP or gear, only people with the appropriate gear are going to be able to fight there. I do not see this as a flaw in MMO design.



    I respect your opinion. :)  but don't agree.

    Care to elaborate?

    Nimryl said:

    bigdogchris said:
    If a noobie that is under-equiped wants to join the raid, I do not see that as something that the developers need to force. That would be hand holding.

    Hmm dont get you.

    Let's say you need 10,000 HP to comfortably tank a mob. If you only have 5,000 HP are you suggesting the raid (or group) should still let you tank the mob? Otherwise I don't see how you can disagree with my statement.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at July 24, 2017 5:33 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    July 24, 2017 5:56 PM PDT

    Bring on the keyed zones and flagged areas I say.  If you want to go there, earn it by completing the quest tasks.  It is no different than getting a reward from any other quest.  In the case of a key, the 'reward' is access to the zone.

    As for stopping low level players accessing high level zones?  I say let them in so they will die, leave a corpse they cannot retrieve and then they will have learned a valuable lesson:  Bad decisions lead to bad consequences.  If you aren't high enough level or geared well enough, what purpose are you serving being there?  What do you possibly think you could do?  Mobs will hit too hard,  your spells will be resisted time and time again, your level difference will probably increase your aggro radius significantly so you are an endangerment to others.  Go back, level up, try again.

    This notion of community in this thread?  Some see their guild as the only community of importance.  Players are in competition with each other even if they don't realize it.  Finite number of zones, finite number of spawns, limited named spawns, rare drops, etc.  Community does not equate to me helping a low level player survive in a high level zone just because that person feels entitled to be there at that time.

    • 125 posts
    July 24, 2017 6:20 PM PDT

    A more direct and to the point way of saying exactly how I feel Vandraad. Thank you.

    • 542 posts
    July 24, 2017 6:33 PM PDT

    levels set us on a fixed path and (also other players) tell you "what you are supposed to be doing" ; as said recently this won't allow real adventure to happen.
    In a true adventure you engage in hazardous activity,exploring unknown territory.Risky undertakings.
    Is there another purpose to it to serve than exploring Terminus as one wants?Just choose a direction and go for it.
    And if they would be an endangerment to others;wouldn't that even be a good thing,considering it is an adventure?
    I think with levels it are the high level players that feel they are entitled.So they are the first to tell others to "go home" when they think they do not belong in a certain zone :D
    So the power makes them feel entitled.And yes competition feeds this whole mentality.Always trying to be the best is a heavy burden.
    They manage to make a competition out of everything nowadays,even cooking.Somehow I think it would be best to completely separate pve and pvp and let pvp have all the competition.
    Cause that kind of competition often implies that winning is more important than anything else.Even if the quality and enjoyment of the game is totally diminished.