Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Content restrictions: Do they need to go?

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    • 542 posts
    July 26, 2017 6:06 AM PDT

    Lets embrace failure as a part of the gameplay.As adventures are uncertain undertakings.You never know whether you'll gain something or not.
    I too have the impression that players have a harder time dealing with failure now than back in the days.
    They have less patience with other players when confronted with failure.Their obsession with advancing and gaining power leaves little room to form connections with other players.
    Everything is about power and only people they consider worthy are those of their own level zone, because they can help them gain levels faster.So it is still for personal gain.

    Manouk said:

    dieing was no big - just laugh and run back- chatter about trying something else


    Players can't do that anymore nowadays unfortunately
    Consumed by personal gain and power,there is no concern for others

    Manouk said:

    -My imagination is that the newbie yard can still kill you, but at later horizontal levels you are more adept at avoiding or killing them so it is as if you are a higher level, but not..

    That would fit with the idea of a horizontal progression path.Where all content is equally important.
    The dangers lurking around the corner should never vanish from any of the content.
    And that is how any content remains a playground to form meaningful relations


    This post was edited by Fluffy at July 26, 2017 6:07 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    July 26, 2017 6:21 AM PDT

    Fluffy your assessment boggles my mind.

    "No, adventures are risky undertakings with uncertain outcome.  So a gain in power should not be a given in the first place."  --  How is growing in power (character progression) a certain outcome?  If someone repeatedly fails to accomplish a task that rewards power, nothing should be given.  This reinforces my point that people should have to put in their time to achieve it ... failure needs to exist in Pantheon, and it should be something that players experience pretty often.

    "I am stronger, they are weak.  I deserve more."  --  When I said there should be a sting for losing, I didn't imply that everybody else would automatically be on the losing end.  What I meant was simple ... you can't enjoy victory if defeat is not also a viable outcome.  In a world of risk vs reward, it's often the case that you will fail far more often than you succeed when it comes to unearthing the most awesome treasures.

    "Pride is like a smelly fart in the face.  The enjoyment when "losers" get an extra sting.  Because when we are on top of a mountain, we look down upon the "lower" peaks.  Thus it makes us act inappropriately and disrespectfully towards others."  --  Pride of ownership has nothing to do with getting a sense of enjoyment out of other people losing.  It has everything to do with being proud of what you have worked so hard to build, maintain, and grow.  You make it sound like when a team wins a major sporting championship, they instantly become entitled brats who bash their opponents afterward.  When it comes to looking down on the lower peaks ... yes, exactly ... many players will often reflect on just how far along they have come during their journey.  When you reach the top of the mountain, it's a great opportunity to get a sense of the world around you ... it's pretty challenging making it all the way to the top!  So enjoy the view while you are there because it isn't going to last forever.

    At the end of the day, this all really boils down to a few select principles.  Risk vs reward, earning accomplishments, and meaningful progression.  When it comes to segregating content, I think people should remember that having access to certain areas should be considered a privilege.  Just look at faction and use it as an example.  This is a part of the story ... you run into a certain tribal mountain clan that requests your aid.  As you help them, your faction grows.  Eventually, you can get high enough to where they truly trust you and allow access to speak to their elder shaman who can teach you a powerful ability.  This "content" needs to be blocked off from players.  You have to earn the right to speak to that shaman.  It's quite possible the shaman wouldn't waste his time trying to teach an entry level adventurer, so they might not even acknowledge someone unless they are at least X level.  Acclimation is going to be a gating tool as well ... you have access to the frozen tundra just like I do ... but when it comes to navigating through it ... it will require a certain acclimation score.  Again, we all have the same opportunity ... but our individual player choices will carve out what kind of experience we have in Terminus.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at July 26, 2017 6:33 AM PDT
    • 542 posts
    July 26, 2017 7:18 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    How is growing in power (character progression) a certain outcome?  If someone repeatedly fails to accomplish a task that rewards power, nothing should be given. 

    traditional levels make a growth in power a certain outcome ;attaching experience to all kinds of things that you do.It is a certainty that you will gain a level(and therefor power) in x time.
    While the only experience that actually should be valued is the adventure;the dangers you face with others.
    As Nimryl says.It is the freedom that comes with trying and learning that makes it memorable and fun.
    Levels,experience gain,on the other hand, ensures you'll progress while being placed in that plastic bubble that never allows you to fail
    (while at the same time leaving a path of destruction;content restriction, and content and players that are no longer relevant.and you get upset at failure because everything is measured by the exp bar filling or not filling up) ;everything is a gain (in "experience")
    A bar telling about experience is imo just a bad simulation of what a great experience should be.It can never be memorable like the experience where you are pushed out the door to embrace the dangers of adventure,where you currently are in the world, and the people around you.
    And an acceptance that failure means no reward,an adventure has the ability to ease that pain.Since there always is something to do on an adventure,another direction to take.
    As I said in the post before you.Levels only are personal gain.So we have no concern for others
    Therfor I think a symbiotic progression system is needed in a multiplayer game, like some kind of communal progression I suggested on the first page.Anything but a system that is only about ourselves, really.

    It is true that victory is sweeter if defeat is a viable outcome.That is why we should embrace adventure as our experience.Because that kind of experience is the kind of experience that is truly rewarding.
    Not losing touch with the moment we are in because we chase some expbar for our personal gain.But truly embrace the adventure.

    Oh yes oneADseven,celebrities and professional sportsmen often are very unpleasant people to be around.As a kid I met one of my idols back then.And when I met him in life he just told me to beat it.

    oneADseven said:
    I can never truly appreciate the joy of victory if there isn't a sting for losing 

    Why can't you just enjoy how far you've come because of the hard effort you have put into it then?If it is just for pride of ownership?
    If meant that losing stings for yourself,fine if that is how you feel about it.But if we want players to embrace their failure.We shouldn't make a big deal out of it.
    Nowadays people can't even laugh about stupid mistakes and failures because people are way too serious about it.There does not need to be a sting for losing.
    Seeing the fruits of your hard efforts is enough to enjoy the hard earned accomplishments when you do succeed
    The view on top of the mountain isn't going to last, that makes it easier to understand the burden when you try to stay on top of things.
    Recognize the frustration it brings to people when they are unable to stay on top,and how people vent that frustration in unhealthy ways towards others.

    People can change faction.They just have to put hard effort in it.
    The elder shaman might be unwilling to teach you ,so you have to prove yourself.
    Does not mean content needs to be blocked off.

    Acclimation will require an effort to reach content.But that does not mean the content needs to be blocked off
    Maybe in a way they can seek help with other players.A crafter might be able to craft them something warmer.
    Just because all content would be available does not mean it should be easy to reach it.there should be danger and risk.


    This post was edited by Fluffy at July 26, 2017 7:36 AM PDT
    • 125 posts
    July 26, 2017 7:56 AM PDT

    Fluffy, Im with oneadseven. I find this conversation mindbogglling.

    This is a game where the goal will be to join like-minded people to progress through content while exploring the world to do so. As you gain more knowledge, and advance your experience within the game, the game will, and I hope with somewhat of an organic feel, allow you access to more content. This is exactly how life works as well. 

    Im still hung up on your idea that everyone with a competitive nature is somehow missing out on enjoying the game to the fullest and that their sense of excitment in achieving things is somehow diminished due to their competitive nature.  

    Also you are continually implying we view things and do things for our own pleasure with little care about the community. My community will be my guild and I will do everything within my power to help us achieve our goals within game. This is not a singular vision in which I command a bunch of no-mind minions to be there at my beckon call and do exactly what I ask when I ask. These are people with their own goals and sense of acheivements and only together can we accomplish anything. These guilds are never based on the views of one individual. We work together for the satisfaction of every one of our members and are there for each other at every turn.

    I lead a team of just under 200 people in real life. On a core level I manage the same in MMOs as I do my team in life. I have bi-monthly brainstorming sessions where everyone inputs their ideas for how to make their section function more efficiently and keep us at the cutting edge of what we do and leaders in our field. I then take this info and decide what we will impliment, what is workable but needs to be adapted and what at this point in our development just wont work. Most competitors I have feel and have openly said Im the most coldhearted SOB they have every met and my team and I continually laugh about it. I dont even involve myself with other competition and do nothing to hinder their success. The only time I get involved is when they make a mistake. If I can gain from their mistakes where they have impacted their clientele to the point of lifting their support of them I will actively go after their clients.

    This is exactly my mentality in game as well except, if asked, I would help individuals outside the guild if time was available. I do not however openly go out and randomly help people or interact with people in game. Im just to busy and my play time is too limited.

    Achievements in MMOs are never just about me. They are a common goal amoungst all of the guild (my community) and are what we work hard to achieve. In many cases our membership is as much on me and what I do as I am on them when they do something wrong. 

    I play these came competitively and I love having at least one other guild on the server to push us. In WoW we actually had a toon in their guild and they had one in ours so we always had an open channel of communication. They had a server first and we got the kill 40 minutes later. Throughout the instance there was at least one time for each of us where we helped each other when we were having difficulty. They openly acknowledged this on their website and very kindly said we had helped and deserved some credit and then congadulated us on our kill 40 minutes later. It was the only time we came that close in accomplishments so it didnt happen again. Yes they were our competitors but it was a friendly rivalry and we pushed each other.

    It has become obvious you have a negative bias towards our playstyle and that is fine but please do not diminish our accomplishments by making them sound like they are one person's egocentric point of view or that somehow we have no sense of community and care only for ourselves thus not allowing us what you consider to be a real sense of accomplishment. We are playing the game exactly how it was meant to be played.

    Finally, as I mentioned above in another post, I always find it funny how a portion of the community looks at us the same way you do but do not hesitate to visit our webpage and copy our tactics or watch our streams which guide people through content they are having difficulty with or are just too lazy to learn on their own. Or the guild who has wiped in a zone they probably should not have gone into and now cannot retrieve their corpses so in a panic and as a last resort they ask us for help and we do so. Or the time the community as a whole had an issue with a group of people who the devs would not deal with so us, along with another competitive guild, solved the problem for everyone.

    These are not acceptions and niether was/is our guild. The vast majority of competitive guilds are like this and do things like those mentioned above when time allows. We just choose not to seek out attention or others' approval. We are content playing the game the way we do and allowing everyone else to go about their gameplay the way they do.


    This post was edited by Aatu at July 26, 2017 8:06 AM PDT
    • 281 posts
    July 26, 2017 8:25 AM PDT

    What boggles my mind is that Fluffy keeps turning a discussion about content restrictions and gating to a discussion about horizontal progression vs vertical progression.  It is a fine discussion to have but is simply hijacking this thread.

    Personnally, I would like the devs to know that that at least my opinion on the subject is that there should be no set level restrictions but that I'm fine with and even enjoy a well developed gating mechanic for content intended for those that can "survive the guantlet".

    This insistence on making it an issue about having levelling is NOT on topic and IS hijacking the thread.

    • 542 posts
    July 26, 2017 8:44 AM PDT

    Vertical vs horizontal progression has a huge impact on content/level restrictions I believe.But I sense I've overstayed my welcome.

    I've talked about the nature of competition because I notice this sense of entitlement around when it comes to who should be restricted from content. The "I deserve more" idea.

    It was never meant as an attack on the competitive players Aatu.As long as its good sports
    When you let hard work and merits do the talking it is good.Not all competition is bad
    It can be healthy if you focus on improving yourself and those at your side.
    It becomes negative when we try to ensure victory at all costs,would even kill for it.Intentionally want to hurt competition by the desire to let losing 'sting' for them.But who are we to say who is deserving or should be restricted ? Know that ,in order to create a sense of real adventure it is best not to have it.And at this point I'd just repeat myself.So agree or disagree ,I shared my thoughts on it

    • 3237 posts
    July 26, 2017 8:58 AM PDT

    The "I deserve more" idea is a fundamental aspect of playing an MMO.  The more effort you put into the game, the more likely you are to succeed at conquering various obstacles/challenges.  The more you conquer, the more you deserve.  Just remember it all comes down to earning it ... nobody deserves a handout.

    • 281 posts
    July 26, 2017 9:14 AM PDT

    I haven't even seen anyone here stating some sort of "sense of entitlement".

    Some think, as I do, that there shouldn't be an invisible wall that throws a message "Your gear ratio number is not high enough to enter this area.  Get Good."  But most of us have no probably walking into that area and getting one-shotted by the mobs and deciding, "We need better gear and maybe a few levels."

    Panteon already has leveling.  There is pretty much a 0% chance that that is going to change so discussing it has zero impact on this subject.

    THE main thing that makes an MMO fun is the sense of accomplishment.  And getting into areas that one couldn't before is an accomplishment.  I just want that accomplishment to be because I got better, not because a number was reached.  It can be placed behind puzzles and quests and "beat the Gatekeeper of Death" but being behind a number like level or gear ratio is not immersive at all.

    • 2752 posts
    July 26, 2017 9:46 AM PDT

    I'd like to see gated content kept to a minimum but I understand that it has a place. I don't take issue with certain zones being level gated, much like the Planes in classic EQ being level 46+ so you can't just bring along a low level character to get raid geared. Even if raids in this are so hard you need every slot, there will come a time sooner than later when you can carry a spot of dead weight. 

     

    Nor do I have an issue with lesser blocks (more just a steep hill) like getting keyed to enter a zone or needing a certain amount of climate gear, things that someone could carry a lower level through the process of getting but is a dangerous and potentially long process. 

     

    Straight up item level blocks and anything like it though? No thank you.

    • 3237 posts
    July 26, 2017 9:50 AM PDT

    I agree with you Dragonfist.  I wouldn't want to see artificial restrictions based on level or gear score.  As far as faction, access keys, acclimation, and anything else like that goes ... I am perfectly fine with it.  I would say, though, that there may be a time and place for restricting players from certain areas.  Over the years I have seen people use level 1 characters as spotters for rare contested ... that kind of ruins immersion as well.  I think it's better when people have to check on mobs like that as a group/raid/guild, whatever.

    • 281 posts
    July 26, 2017 9:54 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I agree with you Dragonfist.  I wouldn't want to see artificial restrictions based on level or gear score.  As far as faction, access keys, acclimation, and anything else like that goes ... I am perfectly fine with it.  I would say, though, that there may be a time and place for restricting players from certain areas.  Over the years I have seen people use level 1 characters as spotters for rare contested ... that kind of ruins immersion as well.  I think it's better when people have to check on mobs like that as a group/raid/guild, whatever.

    Agreed.  I'd like to see a more than subtle solution than level restriction, but I do understand that is is a problem to be solved. 

    • 125 posts
    July 26, 2017 1:56 PM PDT

    Hate to say it oneADseven but I was one of those guilty of placing a level 1 toon on a world god spawn point. When he died I had a program which would set off an alarm and wake me and also call my phone. It did the same for our core guild group and we would have a full raid on 9 times out of 10 within 15 minutes no matter what hour of the day.

    That being said I do not want to go down that path again and hope mechanics are in place to stop it. For me its as simple as having random pathers cross the spawn point every few minutes or changing spawn points to random spots.

    I agree with Dragonfist as well. Let people go in and find out for themselves and that is it. I also like the idea of keys here and there, climatization and other unique organic methods of making access more difficult with some work involved. Afterall... it would just be more meaningful horizontal gameplay which most here seem to relish.

    I think there will be enough guilds, raid leaders, and group leaders who will impose their own restrictions when it comes to level, gear, and resistances for people wanting to join them that VR can focus on other things. 

    • 3237 posts
    July 26, 2017 3:40 PM PDT

    I did it too!  Every guild did.  I miss the Toxxulia runs in EQOA ... there was no way to camp someone in his room.  If you wanted to check on him you had to bring everybody.

    • 1019 posts
    July 26, 2017 3:50 PM PDT

    I only want openess because let people die.  If they can ninja/parkor their way through a zone, let them.  If they try to attack mobs that are way to high, or in a zone with mobs way to high, who cares.  Let the mobs kill them, death and fear should keep people out, not mechanics.

    • 94 posts
    July 26, 2017 7:01 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    sunstalkr said:

    Everybody should have access to ALL of the content because we ALL pay the same monthly sub. I know some wont like it but I've always felt that it wasnt fair for ppl who pay the exact same amount as other ppl and prob play the game longer due to being casual. Thats the main reason I like games that have scalable dungeons. You make max lvl but are not in an uber guild and dont have the uber loot. If the dunegons scaled for group size/levels everybody would be able to see/experience all of the content. The loot table would obviously be scaled down but then, regardless of what type of player you are you would have that chance to see everything you are paying for. I know EQ was nothing like that but it has been one of my personal gripes about most online games. The fact that some ppl get to experience everything the game has to offer while others who pay the exact amount same dont.

    This isnt about taking away that challenge for the powergamer/lvler. They will still get to max 1st. They will still get that 1st time on server drop and 1st time on server kill. They will still get the glory they want and its not taking anything away from them. Its giving other players not on the level the same bang for their buck.

    Believe me, I can see both sides of the issue as I have been in top tier guilds raiding and I have been casual. I just dont see how something like this would hurt anyone while giving alot of ppl full access to the game.

    Everybody has an opportunity to experience the same content ... but accomplishments are earned, not given for paying a subscription fee. The city doesen't come and upgrade your house to the same as everyone elses in the neighborhood because you pay the same tax rate. When you go to school, you don't get the same education as everybody else just because you paid your tuition.  Like with homes and school, it comes down to pride of ownership and effort.  Just my opinion here, but paying your subscription fee doesen't entitle you to jack squat other than being able to log into the game.  You don't pay a fee to see all of the content ... you pay a fee to take control of a character, and then make something of it.  What you do, how you do it, when you do it ... that's all up to you ... but the same opportunity/availability is pretty much even across the board.

    Its funny how I can see both sides of this issue. I have always felt EQ was a great game BECAUSE you felt when you got to max lvl you HAD accomplished something, that it wasnt given to you. I also knew ALOT of ppl who NEVER got to see the inside of alot of the zones for several reasons. Lack of play time. Being very introverted so dont like talking to anybody even tho its an MMO. Getting into a guild that never goes anywhere but is afraid to leave their new friends. On and on it goes. I myself went thru several guilds before landing where I finished the game. I agree to a point obviously that your fee DOESNT entitle you to anything BUT I've also always felt it was so unfair to those that just never get that opportunity. Several games let dungeons scale so you can go with 1 group, just so you can actually see the inside of the zone, feel its ambiance. Some zones in games are unique with THAT zone being the only one like it in the game. Believe me, I wont have a problem getting into and being a part of a top tier guild. Its just that I have known so many ppl over the years that were not and never got to experience the flavor of many raid zones. So in effect the same opportunity may NOT be available to everybody for various reasons like you seem to think. Either way it wouldnt stop me from playing and excelling in Pantheon. I just thought I would throw it out there since this thread is about restricting content and thats for any reason and I gave a way to help resolve a restriction EQ had and many games have. Why is it so bad for everybody who plays a game to actually be able to experience the entirely of it, esp if it doesnt hurt or stop anybody else from doing what they want, when they want?

    • 281 posts
    July 26, 2017 7:17 PM PDT

    The opportunity should be there for all, but I'm sorry, some zones you need to work for.  I don't want another game that I finish in 8 weeks and what is left is either PvP or Epeen measuring.  I saw every zone of Everquest 1 up until the expansion that I left from.  It wasn't the same game by that time.  But it took work to do that.  And time.  And it felt good.

    The vast majority of games that I've played since haven't even been "theme parks" but a funhouse ride.  You get in a car and ride it to the end.  There are some nice pictures or animatronics along the way, but that's it, you could back in line but what's the point?

    No, give me stuff that I need to puzzle out or grind through or whatever, to key myself, resist myself up and whatever else so that I can just barely be able to survive it and thats just the entrance hallway to the REAL area that you want to get to.  And sometime later, I'm running guildies through the grind to enter.

    But have it be organic and part of the game, not some unnatural gear or level check.


    This post was edited by DragonFist at July 26, 2017 7:18 PM PDT
    • 94 posts
    July 26, 2017 8:20 PM PDT

    DragonFist said:

    The opportunity should be there for all, but I'm sorry, some zones you need to work for.  I don't want another game that I finish in 8 weeks and what is left is either PvP or Epeen measuring.  I saw every zone of Everquest 1 up until the expansion that I left from.  It wasn't the same game by that time.  But it took work to do that.  And time.  And it felt good.

    The vast majority of games that I've played since haven't even been "theme parks" but a funhouse ride.  You get in a car and ride it to the end.  There are some nice pictures or animatronics along the way, but that's it, you could back in line but what's the point?

    No, give me stuff that I need to puzzle out or grind through or whatever, to key myself, resist myself up and whatever else so that I can just barely be able to survive it and thats just the entrance hallway to the REAL area that you want to get to.  And sometime later, I'm running guildies through the grind to enter.

    But have it be organic and part of the game, not some unnatural gear or level check.

    I can agree with alot of what you say. I will say that I thought keying to get into a zone was one of the worst ways to get access. Reason I say this was that my guild called me at about 2 in the morning on a week night to get up and play my char as they said we might never get the opportunity again since the mob needed happened to be up. I told them never to call me again to play a game, not when its during the week when I have to work the next day. The guy who called me was a friend of mine in the game and we were friends for years after that BUT to force ppl to have to call you in the middle of the night so that your guild can get keyed to get access to the next area I felt was a bit much.

    I know you and others will say, "well nobody FORCED you to do anything". Thats true BUT if you wanted to be able to play the next area/zone you had to go thru it or you would be left behind and in effect might as well leave the game since we had done all the content up to that point. So yes, we WERE forced to do it IF we wanted to continue to play the game. That is the biggest issue with non instance games. If the mob is up you have 10 guilds racing for it and you just have to hope you get there 1st or you miss out for another week as some spawns were a week apart RL.

    btw if they make Pantheon the way its being told to us then it wont be over in 8 weeks so that shouldnt be a problem.

    • 281 posts
    July 26, 2017 10:03 PM PDT

    Largely because it will have these sort of mechanics.  And, I know of no keying process that would have "needed" a 2am raid in EQ1.  Some did need raids, but those raids were instanced.  Some required group named that had long respawn timers but we're talking hours not days.  So that was a choice, not a "need".

    There were raid mobs that were timers that counted in days but no mobs needed for keys worked that way.

    • 763 posts
    July 27, 2017 12:08 AM PDT

    We are veering into 'Content Denial' mechanics. Something covered in:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2955/suggestion-how-to-improve-content-denial

    which is an interesting read in its own right.

    As far as 'keys' are concerned:
    While traditional 'key' methods are 'be over level 45', 'kill the boss and get 10 keys' or 'kill the boss and all get a key', Patheon is about innovating from these old methods- and it does seem there is more scope for 'interesting' ways to gain 'keys' beyond the simplistic.

    (i) Atmospheric Barrier:
    Boss gives off harmful radiation ... exposure for a certain amount of time will build tolerance. Once you have gained enough tolerance (maybe different races are affected at different rates) you can 'safely' pass through the doorway that is 'keyed'. Perhaps the 'keyed' doorway is actually a 200' long corridor that will do damage (ammount dependent on tolerance) until far end is reached. Perhaps speed or buffs may help, perhaps resists ... you work it out!

    (ii) Physical Barrier:
    The 'Key' is really a bridge that needs to be build over an bottomless chasm. It must be built of a certain material (specially treated bronze, enchanted to resist the wierd elements). This needs crafters working there ... and they need to be protected. So does the bridge. It can be repaired, which is good as it slowly falls apart over time. Thus this is an 'unlimited' key as long as the bridge is kept repaired above a certain level. For fun, I guess the bridge could still be used when less than 100% but with a (low, but not zero) chance for any person crossing to fall to their death! Ouch!

    (iii) Language Barrier:
    The 'Key' is a password or phrase ("Speak friend and enter" anyone?) which has been written on the entrance to the Raid Dungeon. The language is both ancient and hard to master. To read this, there must be a linguist/translator/Bard who has mastered this particular dead tongue [perhaps a Dragon tongue]. To get a high enough skill in this language will require the linguist to have visited and mastered several lesser scripts, etchings and tomes. These will have been found in dungeons and raid areas of increasing level of difficulty - perhaps even from tomes found in the lair of lesser raid bosses.

    (iv) Collection Barrier:
    The 'key' is a tchotchke, or idol, representing the Boss made up of, say, 12 pieces taken from the local flora and fauna. These individual pieces of bone, hair, flowers, eyeball-jelly etc are then crafted into a small idol. It is this idol that allows entry into the Raid Zone.
    Note that this may provide gainful employment for local groups while exp'ing in that zone. Perhaps even ones of much lower level (eg. Level 50 raid zone accessed off a level 15-20 hunting ground.
    Note also that the crafting may need a decent level of crafting ability.

    (v) Magical Collection Barrier:
    The 'key' is actually a spell needed to gain entry. This may be an 'Illusion: Bug-Ugly-Creature' or 'Phase through red-crystal' spell to allow you to either pass by the Sentinel-of-kill-all-but-bug-ugly-creatures or to allow you to walk through the impermeable red-crystal backdoor that blocks entry. These spells are made by combining several runes or pieces of parchment to form the whole 'spell scroll'. This scroll can then be read by whoever needs to gain entry. They would be one-use in most cases.
    Note that this may also provide gainful employment for local groups while exp'ing in that zone. Perhaps even ones of much lower level (eg. Level 50 raid zone accessed off a level 15-20 hunting ground.
    Note also that the combining may need a decent level of 'reasearch'/'runes' ability.

    These are just a few simple ideas to remove any need for 'access restriction by level' to raid areas, while also removing much of the laborious need for repeated and extended farming. It would also provide for a more varied approach, with some consistency of method perhaps applied for Raid Mob types by genre. E.g. Dragon lairs may all have passwords written on the front entrance in proportionately difficult to master versions of an ancient draconic language. They all may well have a (somewhat secret) backdoor with different entry requirements.

    Evoras, imagines these would be more fun than twice-weekly 'Guild keying' runs...

    • 3237 posts
    July 27, 2017 12:26 AM PDT

    Great stuff, as always Evoras.

    • 542 posts
    July 27, 2017 2:14 AM PDT

    Evoras got to the true fundamental aspects of playing MMOs,stimulating the community to interact with the world and each other,overcoming and solving all kinds of obstacles together.

    That is why there is need of a symbiotic progression,Interaction with others integrated into the progression system.Because it is not about "I deserve more" ,even when nearly all MMO's primary goal is the development of your own character solely.(It is exciting but not enough for an MMO to fulfill its core purpose)
    I see that as the biggest blunder of the genre.The thorn in its side of the fat hibernating bear

     


    This post was edited by Fluffy at July 27, 2017 2:21 AM PDT
    • 409 posts
    July 27, 2017 5:50 AM PDT

    *deleted*


    This post was edited by Nimryl at August 23, 2017 5:29 AM PDT
    • 94 posts
    July 27, 2017 6:47 PM PDT

    DragonFist said:

    Largely because it will have these sort of mechanics.  And, I know of no keying process that would have "needed" a 2am raid in EQ1.  Some did need raids, but those raids were instanced.  Some required group named that had long respawn timers but we're talking hours not days.  So that was a choice, not a "need".

    There were raid mobs that were timers that counted in days but no mobs needed for keys worked that way.

    Dragon, it "needed" a 2 am raid because the mob was up at 2am. If you had waited another guild would have killed it and would have been gone for a week. I asked another player who was on that same raid with me and they said the same thing. So we remember the raids for that particular keying event differently. For us it was not a real choice IF we wanted to continue the content. Either way it doesnt matter since evoras linked the thread and the devs dif ways of dealing with keys.

    Evoras,

    Your thread and reasons the devs have of dealing with keys is sitll the basic topic of this thread which is content restriction. So it hasnt veered as far as I'm concerned. Its just another way they will block ppl from doing content but in a dif way. Personally I think it sounds interesting as it DOES sound/read dif than the normal methods.

    "Evoras, imagines these would be more fun than twice-weekly 'Guild keying' runs...Sunstalkr agrees..."

    • 1303 posts
    July 28, 2017 10:10 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    how about equal treatment? Individual progression always causes us to compare ourselves to others.
    And that is one thing that is wrong with these multiplayers that are supposed to be about community;players are not into together,they are not working towards
    common goals.These common goals could still be as hard as individual goals to achieve.

    It is equal treatment. To players who put in equal time, invest in equal amounts of research, invest equal amounts of time and will to find allies, and equal time leveling/gearing/exploring/advancing, will find that they are (generally speaking) granted equal access. 

    If you, instead, choose to invest in all those categories other than finding and working with allies, then you don't get equal access. Or you choose to invest in only finding allies, but not in any of the other categories, then you do not get equal access. 

    What you're promoting is actually the opposite of equality. You're suggesting that those who put in the most hours, the most will, the most effort, get no real tangible reward for it over those who dont. 

    Kinda like real life. Those who invest in their education, career path work experience, networking, and work 15 hour days 7 days a week for 3 decades can generally be guessed to be pretty well off. Whereas those who chose not to invest in education, or have had low level jobs in 15 different job types, burned bridges in every job they had and cant get a good reference, and refuse to work more than 30 hours a week can be expected to be much less well off. Are their exceptions to this? Absolutely. Do deserving people sometimes find themselves in situations largely beyond their control? Yes. But in my experience people who make good choices have better than average outcomes, and those who make bad choices have lower than average outcomes. I have personally spent time at the further ends both of that spectrum (not quite the extremes, but not far from it), and I eventually decided I wanted to be on the above average end of the scale. And now I am. 

    • 432 posts
    July 31, 2017 6:43 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    Vertical vs horizontal progression has a huge impact on content/level restrictions I believe.But I sense I've overstayed my welcome.

    I've talked about the nature of competition because I notice this sense of entitlement around when it comes to who should be restricted from content. The "I deserve more" idea.

    It was never meant as an attack on the competitive players Aatu.As long as its good sports
    When you let hard work and merits do the talking it is good.Not all competition is bad
    It can be healthy if you focus on improving yourself and those at your side.
    It becomes negative when we try to ensure victory at all costs,would even kill for it.Intentionally want to hurt competition by the desire to let losing 'sting' for them.But who are we to say who is deserving or should be restricted ? Know that ,in order to create a sense of real adventure it is best not to have it.And at this point I'd just repeat myself.So agree or disagree ,I shared my thoughts on it

    I just wanted to say ive found the perspectives here absolutely fascinating. Both sides are fun to ponder. Thanks for sharing.

     

    -mobile

    -Todd