HI Nimryl, I think I know what you mean.
My take on it is what I called a "deus ex Ludicrum" or god in the game (compared to deus ex machina, or god in machine, the old tyme theater mechanic to move things along). Where the game world teaches you the perils and so moves you into being a better player. For instance in lower levels there was usually a overly high level monster roaming as well as a tough level appropriate dungeon one zone away. When you died early on- you learned the angst of having to find your corpse a zone away- and in the open. This impact of the world taught to pay attention to the area.
Likewise if dieing in a dungeon- also a zone maybe two away from home base/city- made dieing or a CR less stressfull because you were relatively close and you knew how to get ot the dungeon- dieing was no big deal early on- just laugh and run back- chatter about trying something else etc anmd encouraging frustrated players, it happens. Occasionally on that small run an older player would buff you out the wazoo and you learned form that- as it impacted your game- you found out only when you had the buff and noticed monsters died alot slower or you could not take was many hits when the buffs were gone if you were paying attention. Then as you learn to suddenly find yourself against a lower level enemy and not being able to damage it because of a lack of resists or magic weapon and if you died you learned that poison resists are important and magic weapons are a need in some cases.
These little exoeriences built up a level of playerability as you got higher in level and had to go farther out to other zones. Now, dieing out in the open was no big deal until you realized how vast the zone was and how far away it was/ multiple zones. The game or deus ex ludicrum made you think of the consequences od dieing that far out form home base/city and what cost it took to run without buffs and how long.
With this in mind- and throwing in faciton- if you got close to another city and wanting to establish that as home base you would spend the time in the newbie zone as a higher player getting that faction and perhaps buffing the newbies along the way so that place could be the new home base- deeper in the world.
Then getting to the point to attempt a raid all that came into play that the deus ex ludicrum taught, the magic weapons, the resist gear- and the memory of fun wipes in low level dungeons. if you made it on the first try, great! if not, you remembered being able to run back. If you lost a second time after a win- perhaps hearlening back to the wisp you couldnt damage at first.
I think having to go through that journey is important but the game mechanics or deus ex ludicrum can only do so much. Once the "meta" is in its hard to stop pooling at the top. This si what makes me interested in Pantheons view of horizontal leveling and how they plan to implement it while at the same time providine a game mechanic that makes the player feel good about getting a high stab skill or however they plan to do it. My imagination is that the newbie yard can still kill you, but at later horizontal levels you are more adept at avoiding or killing them so it is as if you are a higher level, but not..
Fluffy said:We will never stop people from judging.But the choice of progression system affects on which foundation other players are judged.
So I believe the method of progression a game chooses ,makes a big difference.DragonFist said:
when the main method of finding a group is a queue, you just vote-kick or quit and re-join the queue because you don't know who those idiots were anyway. But whe you've built relationships with people, you work out how to do this content together, rather than just jump ship or kick others from the ship because this was supposed to just be a 20 minute run and these noobs are wasting my time.Isn't it funny that with the traditional level and gear importance it always is about "whats in it for myself"
And what do you expect when progression only relates to yourself;your character progressing.Indeed they think to themselves "who were those idiots anyway" "those noobs are wasting my time"
While in reality,those "noobs" are the future of the community.They will be needed to keep it together.
So can't we have a progression system where we can accept all players?(and where it is about our quality time, instead of "my time")
Where everyone's contribution is valued.With community progession ,we'd embrace community.Working towards a common goal,every contribution towards achieving that goal valued.
*A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.With collective community progression ,we'll always get to celebrate our accomplishments together.
Because it would be impossible to accomplish alone,we'd have the greatest sense of accomplishment; "it is amazing what we can do together"*A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.*
When we are in it together to progress , we encourage and emphasize with the other players to do well,accept them .
Instead of rejecting them as noobs that are useless to us with our individual character progression that only concerns ourselves
You get back what you give.
I think you really missed my point that the problem is the instant find group queue, not the the fact that items and levels are progression. I explained it fairly well in the ealier post. I'm not against people thinkign about their community, but if you think there is some game mechanic that is going to change how people treat each other, you are going to be disappointed. But one can remove the instant gratification so that people are forced to communicate with one another and maybe, just maybe, they might do that and not be out-right a-holes to one another. At least those that don't lean in that direction have the change to find one another.
I'm not against finding some new method of progression, but Pantheon doesn't seem to be trying to re-invent the wheel in that regard and I'm okay with that.
All games progress in one form or another. I give VR credit for trying to include items which take you on a more horizontal path which will be needed in the end. That being said it is still a way to the end even though it may not be entirely linear. The end result however is the same only the path is more indirect thus more time consuming.
And yes you are right fluffy. There are those of us who play these games who are very competitive and personally I see nothing wrong with that just as I wish those who enjoy just socializing or crafting or gathering and feel these items are of great importance to gameplay the best of luck. And still others who can spend day after day dumpster diving. To each their own. I am not one to judge.
As long as I can remember hard core players have gotten a bad rap for their play styles and lack of community involvement. Some may be surprised just how involved some of these hardcore guilds are in the community through their alts. They just choose not to make it known so we get labled elitists and other things. We just play the game with a differnet goal. Our thrill is in the competition and solving game content on our own before the spoilers are readily available. Many times we have played together for years over many games but we always eventually recruit from within game.
And yes we do look at gear, skill and level if for some reason we have to go outside the guild to fill a final spot in a raid or group but it is afterall our group or raid and when we do look outside, which seldom happens unless the encounter is on farm mode, we expect people to follow our rules just as you would if you were leading a group or raid.
I know that may sound harsh but just as I respect casual players I wish everyone would respect how we play. So to say that we should all welcome anyone with open arms even though they are not geared optimally for an encounter and insinuating that if we dont we feel we are entitled is not fair. I dont judge how others play the game but I do ask that you respect my playstyle and the choices I make for raid or group player content just as I respect yours. I would never think about joining an open raid and trying to enforce my rules unless I was asked to take control. In the same way I respectfully ask people who join my groups or raids to follow my rules.
Pantheon will be large enough for all of us to exist and for the vast majority our play styles are so different our paths will more than likely cross very seldomly. There is enough room for both playstyles without "labeling" the other.
Aatu said:All games progress in one form or another. I give VR credit for trying to include items which take you on a more horizontal path which will be needed in the end. That being said it is still a way to the end even though it may not be entirely linear. The end result however is the same only the path is more indirect thus more time consuming.
And yes you are right fluffy. There are those of us who play these games who are very competitive and personally I see nothing wrong with that just as I wish those who enjoy just socializing or crafting or gathering and feel these items are of great importance to gameplay the best of luck. And still others who can spend day after day dumpster diving. To each their own. I am not one to judge.
As long as I can remember hard core players have gotten a bad rap for their play styles and lack of community involvement. Some may be surprised just how involved some of these hardcore guilds are in the community through their alts. They just choose not to make it known so we get labled elitists and other things. We just play the game with a differnet goal. Our thrill is in the competition and solving game content on our own before the spoilers are readily available. Many times we have played together for years over many games but we always eventually recruit from within game.
And yes we do look at gear, skill and level if for some reason we have to go outside the guild to fill a final spot in a raid or group but it is afterall our group or raid and when we do look outside, which seldom happens unless the encounter is on farm mode, we expect people to follow our rules just as you would if you were leading a group or raid.
I know that may sound harsh but just as I respect casual players I wish everyone would respect how we play. So to say that we should all welcome anyone with open arms even though they are not geared optimally for an encounter and insinuating that if we dont we feel we are entitled is not fair. I dont judge how others play the game but I do ask that you respect my playstyle and the choices I make for raid or group player content just as I respect yours. I would never think about joining an open raid and trying to enforce my rules unless I was asked to take control. In the same way I respectfully ask people who join my groups or raids to follow my rules.
Pantheon will be large enough for all of us to exist and for the vast majority our play styles are so different are paths will more than likely cross very seldomly. There is enough room for both playstyles without "labeling" the other.
DragonFist said:I think you really missed my point that the problem is the instant find group queue, not the the fact that items and levels are progression. I explained it fairly well in the ealier post. I'm not against people thinkign about their community, but if you think there is some game mechanic that is going to change how people treat each other, you are going to be disappointed. But one can remove the instant gratification so that people are forced to communicate with one another and maybe, just maybe, they might do that and not be out-right a-holes to one another. At least those that don't lean in that direction have the change to find one another.
I'm not against finding some new method of progression, but Pantheon doesn't seem to be trying to re-invent the wheel in that regard and I'm okay with that.
Didn't really touch upon your point of the instant group queue because I look upon it as just a coproduct of the larger problem;levels
The entire existence of queues is to find "appropriate players" in the "right level range".
How does that encourage players to "push themselves out the door to embrace adventure,exploration,danger or community that plays alongside them?"
It does not.Levels induce content restrictions and causes players to judge players on principles that are harmful to relations
Levels are progression still remains the cause of the main problem.
And I have considered that it will be an incredible task with so many different player types,Aatu
Then I look at all that is stated in the about & difference section and wonder; can they make that vision true when all gamestyles play in the same room*?
They can't please all,it has nothing to do with "respect for a playstyle"
I do not judge competitive players either.But it is important to examine what competition does to people; how they relate to others because of it.They sometimes say "carrying the arrogance of a winner"
Recruiting new players for other games actually is true winning.When you could have mechanics that could make players considerate and emphasizing towards each other;
that would be a great game.It is how competition makes players relate to each other that achieves the opposite of considerate and emphasizing.Do competitive players deserve less?no.
But I am worried about upholding the vision when they are thrown together;a community that embraces adventure,exploration,danger and those playing alongside them.
We've all seen the results with the obsession of winning at the expense of the quality and enjoyment of the actual game content;in the end nobody wins.
Otherwise we'd all have our perfect game by now.They have one chance to get this right.And I may be a fool with too many expectations,as there is little hope for the genre.
But so far it does look promising,so we can only hope they can make it work.
I don't remember levels ever being a problem in my favorite MMO's of the past. Thankfully, player levels with be both meaningful and memorable in Pantheon. Character progression will be important, on many fronts. All the community stuff is to be figured out by the community ... there is no right or wrong answer. Everybody can have their own playstyle and when people find others that compliment their style, they can play together in harmony without distrupting any of the other harmonious relationships between folks who might play differently. Some people get a kick out of competition ... the idea that nobody wins in the end makes no sense to me. Can't winning or competition be a major factor in the quality and enjoyment of the game for someone? I think we're all here for different reasons but a big one for me is to enjoy winning with friends. If someone wants to judge me for that, have at it.
I hate answering a post within a thread, rather than the OPs question ...
... but in this case it is germane to the central answer
Fluffy said: They can't please all,it has nothing to do with "respect for a playstyle"
All that is needed is:
"Equality of Opportunity"
[I.e. All get the same chances at the starting point]
Then it is up to the players to please themselves and decide what challenges they wish to attempt.
ALL have the same chance to progress: hardcore, casual, explorer, socialiser or anything in-between.
Fluffy said:
... I look upon it as just a coproduct of the larger problem;levels ... Levels induce content restrictions and causes players to judge players on principles that are harmful to relations
Levels are [sic] progression still remains the cause of the main problem.
This implies
"Equality of Outcome"
[I.e. All get the same level of achievement regardless of effort or ability]
This can be achieved in many ways: having no levels, paying for items in RL cash, Dungeon/Raid finders, low challenge etc. All of these give achievement to some at the expense of others, merely to ensure all players end up 'equal' at the end. This reinforces an idealogical outcome at the expense of the individual responsilbility or each player to progress based upon their merits. It supposes an 'entitlement' for any character to be able to access all content without having to put i the effort.
Why this is NOT a solution, but a worse problem can be seen below:
Fluffy said:
... you could have mechanics that could make players considerate and emphasizing towards each other;
that would be a great game.
To a large extent, Everquest already had this [circa 1999-2002].
"Community, forged in the face of common adversity"
Great challenge in a game creates adversity for the player. If this challenge is great enough, then it necessitates a communal effort. Even the most hardcore of players will form links with the community in the face of this common enemy. These links forge a strong community bond between the players.
Your fears of 'Elite hardcore' players looking down on the 'more casual' playerbase is mostly unfounded. Indeed, these players were more concerned with competition from other 'elite' players and rarely ran about being condescending, or intentionally mocking, to their 'inferiors' in levels.
On the contrary: Many, many of these 'elite' players (and Guilds) spent their free time investing effort in the community at large. I have (personally) seen single groups from elite Guilds run 'Pick-up Raids' for smaller Guilds and lone players. Those of you who knew raiding in early EQ will know this was not a mere 30 minute investment of time/effort, but a whole-day event. Since reputation, both personal and Guild, were of paramount importance ... there was a general feeling of personal responsibility for yourself in the wider world .. and how you interacted with others!
To address the OP directly:
Artificial gating is not needed except inasmuch as to ensure a timely progression of abilities in line with rising levels of challenge. In most cases, the level of challenge will natually dictate the so-called 'minimums' needed to participate; without external, hard-coded, levels or stat requirements.
Survival will define your suitability for an area....
... if you survive, then you are in a suitable area!
Evoras, is not on Sauron's side...
People don't always see their habits and how it affects their surrounding.To people who smoke,it is never seen as a problem
until they are diagnosed with cancer (and even then some would say "you have to die eventually anyway" :D)
"
1.7 What design philosophies are being used for the creation of Pantheon?
We’re building Pantheon from the ground up to make sure the game is fun at low levels, then tackling the next set of levels, and most importantly making sure it’s fun all along the way.
This is a development philosophy that we really embrace. Having seen and been part of projects that weren’t made that way, we’re very convinced our approach to Pantheon is the way to go."
I really wish the would elaborate on what they consider memorable and meaningful levels.
As you can see in the wiki terminology section; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_(video_gaming) ,levels could be accommodated in many ways.Ways that would mean no content restrictions;which is needed if we are to embrace adventure ,exploration,danger and community I think
Another way to accomodate levels would be to introduce episodes with certain community objectives.
oneADseven said:
Everybody can have their own playstyle and when people find others that compliment their style, they can play together in harmony without distrupting any of the other harmonious relationships between folks who might play differently.
If style is the only thing used to match ourselves to other players , we might as well go back to the MMOs that feel like single players
Just because people are different does not mean they should be ignored or out of the picture as potential friends.We need less restrictions ,not more.
Embracing community is accepting their differences.Winning together is more rewarding;"A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned."
oneADseven said:Can't winning or competition be a major factor in the quality and enjoyment of the game for someone?
It can be,but keeping on top is the burden as I mentioned.People obsessed with being the best try so hard.Eventually you strive "I have to win at any cost".And that cost is greater than you might think.
It is that attitude that causes a lot of tensions and problems with other people.Not able to play just for the fun of it because you are constantly striving with others.
It is a whole different mentality than what is described in the vision of pantheon
And it might just be my opinion that nobody eventually wins when all these MMO's fall into obscurity because they are full of people that are rotten and not pleasant to be around.
Friendly competition can be fun now and then.But like with many things people do not know when to give things a rest in life.
"A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds."
Competition adds to the tensions.Makes us less tolerable.As Dragonfist mentions rage quit happening when a druid instead of cleric heals.All the drama
Because all that matters,is being most efficient at winning.
Maybe competition doesn't allow the downtime to form important social bonds?because people are like a fuse waiting to be lit,as if the tensions in real life weren't enough.
Evoras said:Great challenge in a game creates adversity for the player. If this challenge is great enough, then it necessitates a communal effort.
Evoras, is not on Sauron's side...
Haha <3 Even though you are not on Sauron side ,it is hard to believe with the passion and fire you have in the heart for this,which I admire.
This whole idea of communal effort is why in my initial post here I suggested communal objectives,to bring other players into the equation of our progression.So the progression system no longer feeds narcissistic tendencies :D
Catering to this whole idea that a belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
So progression could be shared.
taking about content restrictions isn't it only natural to talk about the progression system ?
think that content restrictions should be by chapters/episodes .It fits better with the world fragments.and allows the room to introduce new deities and civilization while at the same time
it allows new levels /chapter/episodes and objectives to be added to existing content
agree Nimryl,
content restrictions are not very adventure spirited ,adventure we can never fully embrace when there are restrictions to it.
Episodes/chapters would let the environment tell the story without any restrictions for anyone.While at the same time it would provide the greater challenge that necessitates a communal effort.A common goal to progress towards to with the community
It seems Evoras, Nimryl and I are on the same page. I agree with pretty much everything I read while catching up on this thread from them, so listing what I agree with isn't really worth it.
@Fluffy, quoting my post and then skipping over the central point of the quote to discuss something disrelated to the topic at hand doesn't seem appropriate. You can, of course, quote any post, but I just don't agree with the hijacking of the topic. Start your our own topic about level progression. The OP is talking about game enforced zone restrictions based on level or gear or some other artificial metric. Levels are just one way this can be done.
Frankly, the progression system doesn't have much to do with the original question. Pantheon is going to have levels. It is rather late in the design/development process to change that, so I don't see what there is to discuss about it. I'm not against alternate systems but I'm also okay with "if it aint broken". But either way, it isn't the topic under discussion here.
I just do not understand why you have to use works like "obsessed" or terms like "at all costs" when referring to the competitive players. I can name many instances where casual players lost jobs, wives and families because of their obsession with MMOs. Just because we enjoy the competition does not make us obsessed or not care for the community. I have expressed that here and in other threads as well previously. Yes there are obsessive players out there but the are not limited to competitive players.
It sounds like you have had some bad experiences with some competitive guilds and that is fine but please do not lump us all into that group. As mentioned above, and previously by me, the vast majority of competitive guilds are not like this and involve themselves deeply in the community. Some just prefer to do it behind the scenes through alts. I once spent, as mentioned in another thread, 5 hours doing a CR in fear for a raid which tried it for their first time. In the process I lost around 1/2 a level. Anyone in my guild would have done the same.
Lastly. Lets not forget that it is these compeptitive guilds whos information is used by the vast majority of the community to eventually beat content by using the guides they developed or shared to their advantage. many of us post these on our sites to openly share with those interested in how to complete content.
Anyways.. its time to get this thread back on track....
Nothing disrelating.I try to avoid creating topics when it is not needed.As far as I see it everything thought I've shared here is on topic.(competition being an exception)
Traditional levels inherently imply content restrictions;appropriate zones and zones that are off-limits to adventures.
It is more like traditional levels hijack any sense of adventure there could be.
You know ,accepting the risk and having to find the path out for yourself.
And who are other people to judge where you try to go on the adventure,who are they to say whether you are ready or not? Traditional levels & gearscore are harmful for potential relations and the sense of adventure as it totally breaks immersion
I think there should be perils in every zone and there should not be a distinction between beginner zone and endgame zone;all content should be equally important.
Agree with Manouk there that the game world's perils are the best teacher.
In MMO's you might as well call levels zones,or maps,world,areas..
I think chapters can give a sense of progression without the content restrictions
But you see,so much terminology for things that mean the same thing.Even I'm not sure which will bring across the message.
They haven't specified anything for levels yet,just that there will be levels.Not which form which could be any of the ones in the terminology section ;)
It is never too late for change ,many people just hope for a release tomorrow :D
Everything is taken way too personal here.Its like alcoholics would get offended if we try to examine the effects alcohol have on behaviour.
The changes in behavior for the worse with competition have been proven.And I have previously explained why this worries me .(that is a point where I might have gotten off tracks I admit,but im not gonna start a topic about that :D)
We actually know exactly what kind of levels there will be. The streams have shown off the famous "DING" that many of us miss. I don't know about you, but one that thing has attracted me to Pantheon is the return to MMO roots. Leveling has always been a part of the process. I would prefer to see as few content restrictions as possible, but understand that gating/keying are important. They should absolutely be in the game and certain areas should only be accessible to players who have gone out of their way to unlock them. As far as progression goes, leveling is a part of the adventure! Growing in power is a part of the adventure and it's only fair that people have to put in their time to accomplish that. As far as we know, the majority of the world could end up being accessible to everyone. That's how EQOA worked. It wasn't "recommended" for a low level to swim to Freeport but it could be done. If you tried to take the roads, you would encounter baddies that would 1 shot you. Swimming through the river was a part of my adventure.
We should never try to control player behavior. You can reward/punish it however you see fit, but don't control it by limiting the enjoyment to be had for those who embrace competition. Competition is what made FFXI such an amazing game. At all times, all 3 major cities were vying for global power. The world had territories that could be claimed and at the end of every week a winner would be declared. Competition was hardwired into that game and it's what I miss most. (For the record, I played at Bastok and my city only won a single time for the year+ that I played.) I didn't care ... I just loved trying and being the underdog. That one win was awesome!) I'd like to see more emphasis on competition as it relates to harvesting resources, farming, crafting, adventuring ... you name it. Competition is interaction for me, and it's one of my favorite kinds. There is nothing like having your team square up against the team from the other side of the bridge. I miss camping archer rings where mobs would spawn once an hour and there would be 6-8 people in the room trying to claim it. It was a valuable resource that everybody wanted ... but things like this lose their value when they become accessible to everyone.
I can never truly appreciate the joy of victory if there isn't a sting for losing ... and I'm not implying that anybody is a "loser" but rather when it comes to limited resources in an MMO ... it shouldn't be like a doorknob where everyone gets a turn. You do what you gotta do to lay claim to what you're interested in ... and if someone beats you to it, you'll survive and try again next time. Eventually you'll get the hang of it or move to another camp. This is just my personal preference ... but I was bored to death with how FFXIV did their Behemoth raid for example. "Server Event!" -- what a crock. I want to see exclusivity ... and plenty of it. And rather than artificial barriers preventing people from having access, just populate the world with bad ass mofo's and let people dare to adventure where they don't belong. I want camps, DPS races, training, kill-stealing, gating, whatever. Let it all exist and then allow players to play their characters in a world where choice is important. Having choices though ... it's great.
Im just looking forward to playing it with likeminded people and helping where I can. We all have a basic grasp of where VR is going with Pantheon and that levels and some restrictions will be in place. How we play with these facts will be up to the community, guilds, and individuals and Im sure there will be extremes either way. Thankfully the world will be large enough for all of us.
oneADseven said:We should never try to control player behavior.
We shouldn't ,but I believe the game can direct it in certain ways.Affect behavior,not per se control it
Anyway I really hope I'm wrong about levels.If they are the rotten roots it is hard to cut them now anyway as it is desired by so many.
Eitherway
GO Pantheon you are the last hope <33
Everybody should have access to ALL of the content because we ALL pay the same monthly sub. I know some wont like it but I've always felt that it wasnt fair for ppl who pay the exact same amount as other ppl and prob play the game longer due to being casual. Thats the main reason I like games that have scalable dungeons. You make max lvl but are not in an uber guild and dont have the uber loot. If the dunegons scaled for group size/levels everybody would be able to see/experience all of the content. The loot table would obviously be scaled down but then, regardless of what type of player you are you would have that chance to see everything you are paying for. I know EQ was nothing like that but it has been one of my personal gripes about most online games. The fact that some ppl get to experience everything the game has to offer while others who pay the exact amount same dont.
This isnt about taking away that challenge for the powergamer/lvler. They will still get to max 1st. They will still get that 1st time on server drop and 1st time on server kill. They will still get the glory they want and its not taking anything away from them. Its giving other players not on the level the same bang for their buck.
Believe me, I can see both sides of the issue as I have been in top tier guilds raiding and I have been casual. I just dont see how something like this would hurt anyone while giving alot of ppl full access to the game.
Nimryl said:I'm not suggesting or telling a raid anything.. I'm saying we should be allow todo it/try it if we so wish.. nothing more nothing less. I think you've mis-understand me here. :)
Well I suspect this game will be similar to EQ in that regard. In EQ you could tank anything you wanted with any amount of HP you wanted. That doesn't mean you would succeed.
If the raid leader wants to let you try, go for it, I don't see any reason why a mechanic would block you from doing that. I do not have experience with FF but I know it was not an issue in EQ.
For my other comment, it seemed like you were suggesting a player with 5,000 HP should be able to succeed and/or have equal chance against an encounter that required 10,000 HP. I disagreed with that. But I think I now have a better understanding what you are suggesting.
sunstalkr said:Everybody should have access to ALL of the content because we ALL pay the same monthly sub. I know some wont like it but I've always felt that it wasnt fair for ppl who pay the exact same amount as other ppl and prob play the game longer due to being casual. Thats the main reason I like games that have scalable dungeons. You make max lvl but are not in an uber guild and dont have the uber loot. If the dunegons scaled for group size/levels everybody would be able to see/experience all of the content. The loot table would obviously be scaled down but then, regardless of what type of player you are you would have that chance to see everything you are paying for. I know EQ was nothing like that but it has been one of my personal gripes about most online games. The fact that some ppl get to experience everything the game has to offer while others who pay the exact amount same dont.
This isnt about taking away that challenge for the powergamer/lvler. They will still get to max 1st. They will still get that 1st time on server drop and 1st time on server kill. They will still get the glory they want and its not taking anything away from them. Its giving other players not on the level the same bang for their buck.
Believe me, I can see both sides of the issue as I have been in top tier guilds raiding and I have been casual. I just dont see how something like this would hurt anyone while giving alot of ppl full access to the game.
Everybody has an opportunity to experience the same content ... but accomplishments are earned, not given for paying a subscription fee. The city doesen't come and upgrade your house to the same as everyone elses in the neighborhood because you pay the same tax rate. When you go to school, you don't get the same education as everybody else just because you paid your tuition. Like with homes and school, it comes down to pride of ownership and effort. Just my opinion here, but paying your subscription fee doesen't entitle you to jack squat other than being able to log into the game. You don't pay a fee to see all of the content ... you pay a fee to take control of a character, and then make something of it. What you do, how you do it, when you do it ... that's all up to you ... but the same opportunity/availability is pretty much even across the board.
oneADseven said:Growing in power is a part of the adventure and it's only fair that people have to put in their time to accomplish that.
No,adventures are risky undertakings with uncertain outcome.So a gain in power should not be a given in the first place.
People have to put their time in the adventure,and when they solely try to accomplish power (because lets face it,thats what they have been obsessed about all these year playing these games;whats in it for themselves)
people are robbed of any sense of adventure there could be
Kittik said:Yes. What is this? The USA in 1950. Get rid of segregation.
Deadshade said:Of course the flaw (same one in Skyrim and Dragon Age Origin) is that when you get to higher levels (17+), every combat is a cake so that the sentiment of fear disappears.
Once you reach the content that is restricted to lower players,all the content that is "beneath you" does not matter anymore.
That is another problem that comes with levels which cant be ignored.Content restrictions are destructive not only to the game itself,but also to significance of lower content(should say other content as it should be equal).
That is why all content should be equally important.
And to maintain that sense of adventure,the restrictions/artificial barriers should be lifted.
When I was going through the crafting FAQ to assemble some questions yesterday,there were a few mentions that made my worries disappear;
A big emphasis is going to be on cooperation between adventurers and crafters.
There exists a symbiotic relationship, not competition -- both adventurers and crafters will need each other.
With as many horizontal content paths as we’re going to have, you’re going to want to seek crafters for those very specific situations.
Instead of having to farm a specific piece of gear, it might be more beneficial to find a crafter with that recipe
I hope they apply the lessons they have learned there ,to the overal game too.
Horizontal content paths is the way to go to maintain the sense of adventure. It kind of implies that there will be none ,or few,restrictions.(example: undiscovered world shards that are not reachable yet)
When they say there will exist symbiotic relations,not competition.They acknowledge how people get with competition,that it sometimes encourages the worst,insensitive behavior towards others.
oneADseven said:
I can never truly appreciate the joy of victory if there isn't a sting for losing ... and I'm not implying that anybody is a "loser" but rather when it comes to limited resources in an MMO ... it shouldn't be like a doorknob where everyone gets a turn.
I don't think accomplishments should be earned for paying a subscription fee either oneADseven.
But everyone should be able to experience the same content.As you say,the same opportunities should be pretty much even across the board.
Therefor can not agree that you pay a fee only to log in.Would that mean free trials are prohibited?
I can only encourage a trial period
You pay a fee to help support the game ,so they are able to improve content and add more for players to enjoy.
Just as how you pay taxes to support education,or taxes for house to have better roads around it.
When you go to school it is up to you to make something from it.That is true,but you have support of loving parents that encourage you to progress and make the best of it.
And they'll be there for you no matter how it turns out.Who is here to encourage you when things do not work out?
Pride is like a smelly fart in the face.The enjoyment when "losers" get an extra sting
Because when we are on top of a mountain,we look down upon the "lower" peaks.
Thus it makes us act inappropriately and disrespectfully towards others.
That is the problem with our attachement to levels and segregation of content
As long as it is all about us,if we act as through we are the center of the universe,we will never develop real concern for others.
For a single player game that is no problem.But in a multiplayer game it is.
That is why this symbiotic relationship also is required in progression,and in overcoming certain dangers on the adventure.
There is a truth to friendships are formed in battle.In difficult times.
So ofcourse the adventure should hold great risk and danger.
That would make players happy to see other players.Even when they don't know them.