I am torn on this feature Trazick. I understand it and like how it works in games like Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Grim Dawn etc. In those games the focus is not so much levels but gear. You often grind the same area's for hours at time hoping to get that "good or great" roll on an item and when you do it is like OMFG this peice is so great! However in a game like PRF (specially at end game raiding or top tier dungeons) it takes a lot of time and work to get 1 piece of gear. I would rather know that the piece of gear will have the values X Y and Z rather than a range of X+1 to x+10. Then when that item drops i only get an x+2 item when next week it drops and my fellow main tank got one that was x+8.
I would be happy with a system where none set pieces had a random nature to it, but specific set pieces would have set stats. This would cause it so that set pieces are good to have but you might find a chest that is a bit better stats for the way you play or built your char.
I can tell you, unofficially (I'm not a VR employee, in other words), that I'm about 95% certain that gear won't be random. Also, that you can expect to see, and instantly recognize to tier gear.
The problem with variable gear is that it takes away the desire to get it. You see some cool looking gear, but you also know that it's unlikely you'll get that.... and even if you did, it might have terrible stats. Gone is anything but a passing, "cool!"
VR wants you to not only know high end gear when you see it, but to walk around knowing that everyone else recognizes, instantly upon seeing you, your accomplishments.
The downside is eye candy, yes. The rewards of making high end gear instantly recognizable outweigh the eye candy significantly from a game mechanic to psychology aspect.
Amris said:I can tell you, unofficially (I'm not a VR employee, in other words), that I'm about 95% certain that gear won't be random. Also, that you can expect to see, and instantly recognize to tier gear.
The problem with variable gear is that it takes away the desire to get it. You see some cool looking gear, but you also know that it's unlikely you'll get that.... and even if you did, it might have terrible stats. Gone is anything but a passing, "cool!"
VR wants you to not only know high end gear when you see it, but to walk around knowing that everyone else recognizes, instantly upon seeing you, your accomplishments.
The downside is eye candy, yes. The rewards of making high end gear instantly recognizable outweigh the eye candy significantly from a game mechanic to psychology aspect.
This is absolutely correct. Too much randomness can quickly become a bad thing. But I don't think the OP has anything to worry about - I highly doubt everyone will be wearing the same gear because the bottom line is that gear will be hard to get in Pantheon. It's not just a matter of just seeing a piece of gear you want and then looking up online to see which quest gives it to you and then running that quest and an hour later, equipping the item. Not to mention the fact that there won't be best-in-slot gear. So there won't just be one set that is desirable. Everyone will be wearing a variety of situational gear.
From the FAQ: (13.9) "Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired."
Bazgrim said:This is absolutely correct. Too much randomness can quickly become a bad thing. But I don't think the OP has anything to worry about - I highly doubt everyone will be wearing the same gear because the bottom line is that gear will be hard to get in Pantheon. It's not just a matter of just seeing a piece of gear you want and then looking up online to see which quest gives it to you and then running that quest and an hour later, equipping the item. Not to mention the fact that there won't be best-in-slot gear. So there won't just be one set that is desirable. Everyone will be wearing a variety of situational gear.
From the FAQ: (13.9) "Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired."
I don't get what you're saying here. There will have to be a finite amount of items in the game if nothing is random. This means that, yes people will be wearing the same items. Not EVERYONE will have EXACTLY the same items across the board, but yes the vast majority of people will end up with the same items.
You most definately will be able to lookup where a piece of gear drops or what quest gives the reward, and then you can go get that piece of gear. I highly doubt every single quest is going to be epic and long and require weeks to complete. So it is hard to say how long it might take to complete a quest to get an item. Maybe it could only take an hour or two.
How will there not be BiS items? Even with environmental factors, there will be one piece of gear that is best in slot for that situation. Unless there are items that have exactly the same stats, which could be a thing, but then as before both items would be BiS.
If there is no randomness to items, then all the things you said won't happen will indeed happen. Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, or I missed some official statement somewhere that explains how you can make these assumptions but as far as I know there isn't.
Big no from me, on the randomization of gear and stats.
One of the worst feelings when you get a piece of gear is "meh, it could be even better, therefore the one i received is ****" it's not the reality but it's the reaction it causes. When a piece of gear drops it should have fixed stats, having to farm for the same piece of gear multiple times just to drop one with perfect stats is hell,
Imagine a chest piece from a boss with "40 strength and 50 health" now imagine that it has the chance of having 1 more random stat (i.e. dexterity) , or the values of strength and helth are randomized between 30-50, now when you get this piece of gear it's only "good" when it's "50 strength and 50 health and 50 dexterity" everything else will seem **** in comparison.
Remenber that this is not Diablo, i love the Diablo loot system but it does not work on an MMO. In diablo you can farm the same boss 100x times a day, in an MMO that's not the case. Just look at WoW with all the RNG titanforge, tertiary stats bukshit, it's one of the most hated features in the entire game.
If by random gear and stats you meant a static affixes and suffixes that a random magic item might have, (i.e. Of strenght "+X strenght", Of of intellect "+X intellect".... like vanilla wow random green gear suffix ) I'm on board, as long as it does not drop from named spawns/bosses/rare mobs.
kellindil said:Bazgrim said:This is absolutely correct. Too much randomness can quickly become a bad thing. But I don't think the OP has anything to worry about - I highly doubt everyone will be wearing the same gear because the bottom line is that gear will be hard to get in Pantheon. It's not just a matter of just seeing a piece of gear you want and then looking up online to see which quest gives it to you and then running that quest and an hour later, equipping the item. Not to mention the fact that there won't be best-in-slot gear. So there won't just be one set that is desirable. Everyone will be wearing a variety of situational gear.
From the FAQ: (13.9) "Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired."
I don't get what you're saying here. There will have to be a finite amount of items in the game if nothing is random. This means that, yes people will be wearing the same items. Not EVERYONE will have EXACTLY the same items across the board, but yes the vast majority of people will end up with the same items.
Brad said there will be tens of thousands of items in the game. That is a finite number. Obviously there will be at least two people that are wearing the same helm. And obviously not 100% of the players will all be wearing exactly the same gear. That's not the point. I don't deal with extremes. The OP is concerned about the vast majority of high end players all wearing the same things and looking exactly the same. You can't statistically assume that the vast majority of people will all be wearing the same gear. I'll explain why...
(Side note to the OP: in regards to players looking the same, item appearance will not be random. It's important that you can tell what an item is just by looking at it. However, there will be cosmetic gear. The choice is yours whether you want to view people is cosmetic mode, thus making it so that people will probably have more unique appearances, or viewing them in adventure mode, where you will better be able to tell what someone is wearing just by looking at them because items will be recognizable by their appearance.)
kellindil said:You most definately will be able to lookup where a piece of gear drops or what quest gives the reward, and then you can go get that piece of gear. I highly doubt every single quest is going to be epic and long and require weeks to complete. So it is hard to say how long it might take to complete a quest to get an item. Maybe it could only take an hour or two.
Of course you'll be able to go to the wiki to see where to get an item. I never said that you wouldn't. The point is that you won't always be able to get what you want when you want it. Perhaps sometimes it may only take an hour or two. But (I'm guessing) more often than not, it will take longer than that. You'll probably have to get a group together, travel to the location, grind through a dungeon, and hope you get lucky enough for the item to drop. And also hope no one else in your group needs that item or else you'll have to hope to win the roll. Heck, maybe you'd even have to get your faction up to a certain point before you could even accept the quest in the first place. I'm contrasting this to WoW-style quests, where you can solo pretty much every quest and as long as you jump through the hoops, you're pretty much guaranteed to get what you want at the end. I'm not saying it'll have to take weeks though. The best answer is often somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. The point is that gear progression will be slow enough to prevent most people from being able to easily bunch up at the top of the gear spectrum.
kellindil said:How will there not be BiS items? Even with environmental factors, there will be one piece of gear that is best in slot for that situation. Unless there are items that have exactly the same stats, which could be a thing, but then as before both items would be BiS.
"best in slot for that situation" is not the same as BiS. BiS gear would be worn 100% of the time because it's stats are unequivocably better in all situations. With situational gear in Pantheon, people will be often switching the gear they're wearing based on their current situation. And because players will be experiencing a wide variety of situations, it is unlikely that a true majority of people will all be wearing the exact same gear, which is what the OP was concerned about.
kellindil said:If there is no randomness to items, then all the things you said won't happen will indeed happen. Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, or I missed some official statement somewhere that explains how you can make these assumptions but as far as I know there isn't.
I may not have explained it clearly the first time, but I copy/pasted a quote from the FAQ that plainly states where I'm getting this.
kellindil said:Bazgrim said:This is absolutely correct. Too much randomness can quickly become a bad thing. But I don't think the OP has anything to worry about - I highly doubt everyone will be wearing the same gear because the bottom line is that gear will be hard to get in Pantheon. It's not just a matter of just seeing a piece of gear you want and then looking up online to see which quest gives it to you and then running that quest and an hour later, equipping the item. Not to mention the fact that there won't be best-in-slot gear. So there won't just be one set that is desirable. Everyone will be wearing a variety of situational gear.
From the FAQ: (13.9) "Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired."
I don't get what you're saying here. There will have to be a finite amount of items in the game if nothing is random. This means that, yes people will be wearing the same items. Not EVERYONE will have EXACTLY the same items across the board, but yes the vast majority of people will end up with the same items.
You most definately will be able to lookup where a piece of gear drops or what quest gives the reward, and then you can go get that piece of gear. I highly doubt every single quest is going to be epic and long and require weeks to complete. So it is hard to say how long it might take to complete a quest to get an item. Maybe it could only take an hour or two.
How will there not be BiS items? Even with environmental factors, there will be one piece of gear that is best in slot for that situation. Unless there are items that have exactly the same stats, which could be a thing, but then as before both items would be BiS.
If there is no randomness to items, then all the things you said won't happen will indeed happen. Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, or I missed some official statement somewhere that explains how you can make these assumptions but as far as I know there isn't.
You're making one huge assumption: That at a given level there will be one item that is the one "best" item for a particular slot. If there are 5 or 10 different places in which you can get items that are each unique but comparable, then there isnt the driving need there has been in most (all?) games to get that one BIS gear item, and certainly not like in EQ where there was one reasonable haste belt, and one best mage robe, and one best 2hander.
It would also be interesting (albeit taxing on the art staff) if the augmentations that Brad has talked about where you can improve items rather than wholly replace them could include visual changes.
"This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower"
This is problematic in the face of at least six different NPC environments that need to be countered (Frigid, Scorching, Anaerobic, Wind Shear, Toxic, and Pressure), and over 20 gear slots.
Camping 20 pieces of gear which each only drop from one static mob, that may or may not spawn, with percentage based static loot tables? Ok, been there, done that. Doing that for 120 pieces of gear? Hrm. And then having to considering BiS for each environment? :|
I have advocated for innovative solutions (among them colored mana widget crafting/augments) to this conundrum, with little traction on these forums. Many others have posted similar great solutions as well. Either it won't be necessary to have a full set of resist gear for each environment, or quest based environmental immunity (as demonstrated in the COHH video) will remove the need for complete resist gear sets in most cases.
It's illogical to have the design goal of "frequency of upgrades will be slower" while at the same time requiring a full set of static-mob, static-loot-table, sub-5%-drop-rate, environment gear for each environment, and then claiming that camping won't tedious and boring. Specifically from section 1.2 of the FAQ: NOT " sitting around in one place for hours on end with lots of downtime and lots of boredom ".
It remains to be seen which of these conflicting design goals outweighs the other at implementation.
vjek said:"This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower"
This is problematic in the face of at least six different NPC environments that need to be countered (Frigid, Scorching, Anaerobic, Wind Shear, Toxic, and Pressure), and over 20 gear slots.
Camping 20 pieces of gear which each only drop from one static mob, that may or may not spawn, with percentage based static loot tables? Ok, been there, done that. Doing that for 180 pieces of gear? Hrm. And then having to considering BiS for each environment? :|
I have advocated for innovative solutions (among them colored mana widget crafting/augments) to this conundrum, with little traction on these forums. Many others have posted similar great solutions as well. Either it won't be necessary to have a full set of resist gear for each environment, or quest based environmental immunity (as demonstrated in the COHH video) will remove the need for complete resist gear sets in most cases.
It's illogical to have the design goal of "frequency of upgrades will be slower" while at the same time requiring a full set of static-mob, static-loot-table, sub-5%-drop-rate, environment gear for each environment, and then claiming that camping won't tedious and boring. Specifically from section 1.2 of the FAQ: NOT " sitting around in one place for hours on end with lots of downtime and lots of boredom ".
It remains to be seen which of these conflicting design goals outweighs the other at implementation.
XXX
Again, you're assuming that the upgrade drops from one mob in one place. It doesnt have to be that way.
You're also not considering crafting, for which the devs have stated they want many, perhaps even most drops to be producable from. Or at the least items that can compete with them.
And you're not considering the augmentation possibiliities that the devs have eluded to for gear you already have, making it possible to upgrade items as an alternative to selling or using them to twink.
It doesnt have to be a narrow funnel method that was used back in EQ, and the devs have discussed three methods of mitigating that very issue. Who knows what they havent discussed.
@Bazgrim I see what you're saying, but it seems like just nitpicking on terminology. BiS for a situation is still BiS. Its the same thing. We are also assuming that you would need gear specific to a climate to combat it, while that could only be ONE way to combat the climate. I feel that saying "There won't be BiS' or "You can't see an item and go grab it yourself in an hour" is a bit presumtious at this point because we do not know how ANY of these systems work. Climates, Loot, Quests, Combat, None of it. I don't support randomized stats at all. I hate the idea, but I also think that his issues with not having randomized gear are still valid because those situations will happen. Min/Maxers will ALWAYS identify that one gear setup that is optimal. Unless all items are the same in stats, which god I hope not, across a level range. Meaning that every arm slot item would have 10Str 10Sta for lvl 40-50 regardless of the actual item. Unless that is how it will break down, BiS WILL be a thing. The quote from the FAQ doesn't mention anything about how gear will be obtained, what kind of time is involved, or that BiS situations will not happen. All it says is that it will be slower, which I take to mean slower than the gear vending machines that are modern MMOs. I see the loot being very close to what we saw in games like EQ. Items will be useful for longer and items will be less plentifull.
@Feyshtey I really don't think I am. If you have 20 items for a single slot across a level range, and those 20 items all have different stats, then only a handfull will be useful for any given class. Within that say 5 items useful for that class, unless all of those items have identical stats, it is fairly safe to say that one will end up being more useful and contribute more to the character than the others. hats just how it is. The classes will most likely have different stats they need to focus on depending on their role and play style. Even "Comparable" items, unless IDENTICAL, wouldn't be as useful across the board.
I just think that its too early to even speak about what gear will look like. I believe we will see BiS items, items that are easy to get (comparatively), items that are hard to get, and items that are completely useless (seemingly so) or at least HIGHLY situational. I also think that gear will not be the only way to combat environmental effects. I am betting that it will be only one of many ways to handle the issue, not a requirement.
We will not know for sure until the game is released.
vjek said:"This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower"
This is problematic in the face of at least six different NPC environments that need to be countered (Frigid, Scorching, Anaerobic, Wind Shear, Toxic, and Pressure), and over 20 gear slots.
Camping 20 pieces of gear which each only drop from one static mob, that may or may not spawn, with percentage based static loot tables? Ok, been there, done that. Doing that for 120 pieces of gear? Hrm. And then having to considering BiS for each environment? :|
I have advocated for innovative solutions (among them colored mana widget crafting/augments) to this conundrum, with little traction on these forums. Many others have posted similar great solutions as well. Either it won't be necessary to have a full set of resist gear for each environment, or quest based environmental immunity (as demonstrated in the COHH video) will remove the need for complete resist gear sets in most cases.
It's illogical to have the design goal of "frequency of upgrades will be slower" while at the same time requiring a full set of static-mob, static-loot-table, sub-5%-drop-rate, environment gear for each environment, and then claiming that camping won't tedious and boring. Specifically from section 1.2 of the FAQ: NOT " sitting around in one place for hours on end with lots of downtime and lots of boredom ".
It remains to be seen which of these conflicting design goals outweighs the other at implementation.
Not sure where this is coming from. Brad has said you generally won't need more than a few pieces of gear for each environment. Maybe Bazgrim can find where he posted it on the forums, I can't use the search function efficiently.
That aside, I don't think the issue of everyone looking the same is going to be a thing. I am 95% sure that this isn't going to be like WoW in that there are end game armor sets/tiers that you get in specific dungeons. It will end up more like EQ where there is some overlap but for the most part people look just different enough, but you can still recognize the gear. BiS is going to happen no matter what you do, you can't get around it. Even in games with randomness like Diablo there is BiS for whatever build you are running.
But you won't see everyone looking exactly the same unless VR has failed at content creation. You can't just look up where something drops and expect to go pick it up. You can find where it drops, go there and try to get into the group camping the item, then if you manage to get into the group you have to hope the rare spawns, and to top it off you have to hope your roll wins. Depending on your luck it *could* take hours but it more likely would take days/weeks. Unless drop rates and spawn rates for rares are really high/fast. In EQ you didn't generally have tons of people making it to BiS/looking the same before an expansion came out and shook everything up again.
Iksar said:That aside, I don't think the issue of everyone looking the same is going to be a thing. I am 95% sure that this isn't going to be like WoW in that there are end game armor sets/tiers that you get in specific dungeons. It will end up more like EQ where there is some overlap but for the most part people look just different enough, but you can still recognize the gear. BiS is going to happen no matter what you do, you can't get around it. Even in games with randomness like Diablo there is BiS for whatever build you are running.
This exactly. Also with Cosmetics I don't think it would end up like that even if there were sets. BiS will be a thing. People will be sporting the same gear for the most part, but visually I don't think we will see too many people that just looks like a clones.
But you won't see everyone looking exactly the same unless VR has failed at content creation. You can't just look up where something drops and expect to go pick it up. You can find where it drops, go there and try to get into the group camping the item, then if you manage to get into the group you have to hope the rare spawns, and to top it off you have to hope your roll wins. Depending on your luck it *could* take hours but it more likely would take days/weeks. Unless drop rates and spawn rates for rares are really high/fast. In EQ you didn't generally have tons of people making it to BiS/looking the same before an expansion came out and shook everything up again.
Again, this statement is misleading in that we don't know how often rares will spawn, if they will be static spawn locations, what loot tables look like... Saying "It Won't Happen" is a bit premature. It COULD happen. It may very well happen. I would hope it wouldn't. Even in all my years of playing EQ. If I wanted an item all I needed to do was go get it. finding a group wasn't hard, finding the camp wasn't hard, and getting the spawn/drop wasn't hard. There are very few instances that I can remember where I had to camp an item or spawn for a LONG time ( days-weeks ) and that was for epic stuff that was ultra rare. Most of the time over a multi-hour play session we'd see the named spawn several times and the potential items it would drop multiple times.
You CAN just look up where it drops and go get it. You MIGHT have to spend a lot of time doing so if you're unlucky. You might get it within a few minutes.
I really think, and hope, for a loot system that is somewhere between Vanilla EQ and modern games like WoW have. Items are much more rare and meaningful than they are in WoW, but doesn't require quite the same amount of time it could take in EQ to get that ultra rare spawn/item. It should be rare enough to be memorable and exciting, but attainable for even the more casual of players.
I definitely don't want to see randomized items. Like most people have said, I want to be able to recognize the item a character is wearing and know what its stats are. In addition, it would make figuring out what the going rate for an item is hard to determine if that item can have hugely varying stats.
Similarly, I wouldn't want there to be an ability to imbue items with stats or skills a la runes/gems in Diablo 2.
I don't think this will cause everyone to have the same gear as this wasn't the case at all in EQ1. Sure there were items that were considered the best for a specific class/slot but despite heavy raiding I wasn't able to gear up to have the best gear I could have. I think the reason we weren't all running around with the same gear is that the best items were hard to get and in high demand, they were rare and that there were alternate items that were equally as good or close enough to not be worth the effort of obtaining the absolute best item
kellindil said:
@Feyshtey I really don't think I am. If you have 20 items for a single slot across a level range, and those 20 items all have different stats, then only a handfull will be useful for any given class. Within that say 5 items useful for that class, unless all of those items have identical stats, it is fairly safe to say that one will end up being more useful and contribute more to the character than the others. hats just how it is. The classes will most likely have different stats they need to focus on depending on their role and play style. Even "Comparable" items, unless IDENTICAL, wouldn't be as useful across the board.
I just think that its too early to even speak about what gear will look like. I believe we will see BiS items, items that are easy to get (comparatively), items that are hard to get, and items that are completely useless (seemingly so) or at least HIGHLY situational. I also think that gear will not be the only way to combat environmental effects. I am betting that it will be only one of many ways to handle the issue, not a requirement.
We will not know for sure until the game is released.
You're assuming that the class structure is so rigid that's there's really only one valid playstyle for that class. I know it gets a little old and may not apply well to Pantheon, I'll go back to EQ again as a for instance. I played a necro. My good friend also played a necro. We both raided regularly, and we both consistently got great drops. Our gear was wholly different, and it wasnt because one of us got luckier than the other. It was because we wanted different things. He always grouped, always had a healer (his wife) available to him, so his stamina was not a factor. He could utilized his health without fear of running too low because his wife would just constantly top him off. Conversely I regularly solo'd. I needed a much more substantial health pool to do so. So I would sacrifice other stats in favor of stamina.
This was true even with the relatively small pool of items upon which necro's could choose for BIS. And I think it's somewhat pessemistic to believe that the people with EQ as their pedigree dont recognize that.
I wholly agree with everything else you said about this being far too early to cast judgement on what Pantheon will produce. We cannot know at this point if BIS is even a relevent term at all in regard to it.
Iksar said:vjek said:"This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower"
This is problematic in the face of at least six different NPC environments that need to be countered (Frigid, Scorching, Anaerobic, Wind Shear, Toxic, and Pressure), and over 20 gear slots.
Camping 20 pieces of gear which each only drop from one static mob, that may or may not spawn, with percentage based static loot tables? Ok, been there, done that. Doing that for 120 pieces of gear? Hrm. And then having to considering BiS for each environment? :|
I have advocated for innovative solutions (among them colored mana widget crafting/augments) to this conundrum, with little traction on these forums. Many others have posted similar great solutions as well. Either it won't be necessary to have a full set of resist gear for each environment, or quest based environmental immunity (as demonstrated in the COHH video) will remove the need for complete resist gear sets in most cases.
It's illogical to have the design goal of "frequency of upgrades will be slower" while at the same time requiring a full set of static-mob, static-loot-table, sub-5%-drop-rate, environment gear for each environment, and then claiming that camping won't tedious and boring. Specifically from section 1.2 of the FAQ: NOT " sitting around in one place for hours on end with lots of downtime and lots of boredom ".
It remains to be seen which of these conflicting design goals outweighs the other at implementation.
Not sure where this is coming from. Brad has said you generally won't need more than a few pieces of gear for each environment. Maybe Bazgrim can find where he posted it on the forums, I can't use the search function efficiently.
That aside, I don't think the issue of everyone looking the same is going to be a thing. I am 95% sure that this isn't going to be like WoW in that there are end game armor sets/tiers that you get in specific dungeons. It will end up more like EQ where there is some overlap but for the most part people look just different enough, but you can still recognize the gear. BiS is going to happen no matter what you do, you can't get around it. Even in games with randomness like Diablo there is BiS for whatever build you are running.
But you won't see everyone looking exactly the same unless VR has failed at content creation. You can't just look up where something drops and expect to go pick it up. You can find where it drops, go there and try to get into the group camping the item, then if you manage to get into the group you have to hope the rare spawns, and to top it off you have to hope your roll wins. Depending on your luck it *could* take hours but it more likely would take days/weeks. Unless drop rates and spawn rates for rares are really high/fast. In EQ you didn't generally have tons of people making it to BiS/looking the same before an expansion came out and shook everything up again.
Thanks Iksar, I totally agree. I did dig up Brad's design doc for the climate system. Here's a quote about how it relates to situational gear:
"The Situational Gear System (a separate HLDD) essentially makes where the Character is at, when he is there, and what’s going on at that time, all matter. The where, when, and what (and even why) is a context or circumstance of which the player needs to be aware. As it relates to this document, the Climate a Character is in or may be entering soon should in many cases influence the player in terms of how he configures his Character (both short and long term).
In addition to the Characters buffs and acclimatisation skills, the player will likely want to equip items that help mitigate the negative effects of a Climate. Therefore, in addition to all of the traditional attributes of an item (defensive capability, offensive capability, spell casting modifications, weight, description, appearance, etc.), the item may also increase or decrease a Character’s resistance to a specific Climate Type and/or Affect Type). The more Climates are used and the greater the variety of Climates in the game world, the more Situational Gear will matter. The other situational attributes an item may possess unrelated to Climate will be described in the Situational Gear HLDD, as will the reasons behind Pantheon’s emphasis on situational gear, situational tactics, etc. Situational Items can also have other attributes, like +10 against Dragonkind, etc."
Bear in mind this HLDD is from 2014 so some details have since been changed and may change in the future. But I believe the intent of how situational gear relates to the climate system is still very much intact. You are correct that there will be other non-gear-related ways to acclimate to a climate, so it won't always be necessary to have you gear totally focused on mitigating climates, especially in low-tier climates where the debuffs are not as extreme. In fact, I specifically remember Kilsin saying that it would actually be disadvantageous to be wearing too much climate gear because it would likely cause you to have to sacrifice other essential stats. I will try to find a link for that.
See this video starting at 36:14 and this video starting at 8:29 and 13:44.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3049/thoughts-about-the-official-climate-design-document
Without the ability to customize every aspect of every slot by the players choice and time investment, Best-In-Slot (BiS) will always be a thing, to however small a degree.
Currenty, the public design goal for pantheon is static drops, either from specific nameds, or specific zones. To date, there are no plans for procedurally generated loot, nor "build as you go" loot, per slot. One stat customization to make an item no-trade is the only hint of any kind of loot personalization.
If they plan on releasing a comprehensive enchantment, augmentation, or any kind of holistic loot personalization? Great, BiS might take a back seat for once. But until then, BiS is gonna be a thing in Pantheon.
Feyshtey said:kellindil said:
@Feyshtey I really don't think I am. If you have 20 items for a single slot across a level range, and those 20 items all have different stats, then only a handfull will be useful for any given class. Within that say 5 items useful for that class, unless all of those items have identical stats, it is fairly safe to say that one will end up being more useful and contribute more to the character than the others. hats just how it is. The classes will most likely have different stats they need to focus on depending on their role and play style. Even "Comparable" items, unless IDENTICAL, wouldn't be as useful across the board.
I just think that its too early to even speak about what gear will look like. I believe we will see BiS items, items that are easy to get (comparatively), items that are hard to get, and items that are completely useless (seemingly so) or at least HIGHLY situational. I also think that gear will not be the only way to combat environmental effects. I am betting that it will be only one of many ways to handle the issue, not a requirement.
We will not know for sure until the game is released.
You're assuming that the class structure is so rigid that's there's really only one valid playstyle for that class. I know it gets a little old and may not apply well to Pantheon, I'll go back to EQ again as a for instance. I played a necro. My good friend also played a necro. We both raided regularly, and we both consistently got great drops. Our gear was wholly different, and it wasnt because one of us got luckier than the other. It was because we wanted different things. He always grouped, always had a healer (his wife) available to him, so his stamina was not a factor. He could utilized his health without fear of running too low because his wife would just constantly top him off. Conversely I regularly solo'd. I needed a much more substantial health pool to do so. So I would sacrifice other stats in favor of stamina.
This was true even with the relatively small pool of items upon which necro's could choose for BIS. And I think it's somewhat pessemistic to believe that the people with EQ as their pedigree dont recognize that.
I wholly agree with everything else you said about this being far too early to cast judgement on what Pantheon will produce. We cannot know at this point if BIS is even a relevent term at all in regard to it.
See the thing is, in this game as in EQ, the assumption is that you will be grouped almost constantly. A class has a defined role. Necromancer for instance was DPS. BiS for a necro was gear that improved their performance in their primary role. Anything else was less efficient for their PRIMARY role. Soloing is not taken into account for things such as this because it is not the "intended" playstyle for any class in these games. There will be variances in what gear people prefere. That does not make that item BiS because it fits their exact need. BiS items are looking solely at the intended primary playstyle and role for the class. In that respect, yes the formula is very rigid.
kellindil said:Even in all my years of playing EQ. If I wanted an item all I needed to do was go get it. finding a group wasn't hard, finding the camp wasn't hard, and getting the spawn/drop wasn't hard. There are very few instances that I can remember where I had to camp an item or spawn for a LONG time ( days-weeks ) and that was for epic stuff that was ultra rare. Most of the time over a multi-hour play session we'd see the named spawn several times and the potential items it would drop multiple times.
You CAN just look up where it drops and go get it. You MIGHT have to spend a lot of time doing so if you're unlucky. You might get it within a few minutes.
We must have had very different EQ experiences. I mean this could work if you had 5+ hours back in the day but what most often happened for me was: Go to LGuk, do a camp check, get on the list for frenzied ghoul, generally wait an hour+ before getting in, then the camp begins and many moonstone rings. Repeat for a good long while. Same for most of the high level camps with the "good" loot. It was rather common to have to spend a LOT of time at a camp before winning your prize.
"I was just in a group at frenzy, camped it for 22 hours straight. When i first got there someone had just gotten a fbss off of froggie.... then ELEVEN frenzies and 22hours later, still nothing but frigin moodrings.
Heh, the good thing is that when i got there I had less than one blue bub into 45, and when I camped I was 46. TONS of xp if you have a good puller."
"Was in the room for 39 hours...he was blue to me when I got there, and blue when I left. No, I'm not crazy, my roomate and I switched out when we got tired of playing. The Frenzy spawned a totaly of 8 times, droping the FBSS, twice....in 39 hous. I rolled a 3, and an 8."
"My guild took and broke the camp at 6am est and killed like 15 frenzies spaning a time till 4am est the next day, and none had any fbss's all had rings. Going into the 23 hour my friend and I were the only ones left, and 2 spawned at the same time. We killed them both, no fbss. Then 15 minutes later 2 spawned again with in 10 minutes of each other and both had the fbss. WOO HOO. We camped the spot for 24 freaking hours to get it, but ended up getting 2. It was long and boring, but it was well worth it! :)"
"42 hours of camping starting Friday night through Sunday night, we had 7 AM's spawn (3 Friday, 4 Saturday, 0 Sunday), we got 2 Silversilk Leggings and no Robe."
kellindil said:@Bazgrim I see what you're saying, but it seems like just nitpicking on terminology. BiS for a situation is still BiS. Its the same thing. We are also assuming that you would need gear specific to a climate to combat it, while that could only be ONE way to combat the climate. I feel that saying "There won't be BiS' or "You can't see an item and go grab it yourself in an hour" is a bit presumtious at this point because we do not know how ANY of these systems work. Climates, Loot, Quests, Combat, None of it. I don't support randomized stats at all. I hate the idea, but I also think that his issues with not having randomized gear are still valid because those situations will happen. Min/Maxers will ALWAYS identify that one gear setup that is optimal. Unless all items are the same in stats, which god I hope not, across a level range. Meaning that every arm slot item would have 10Str 10Sta for lvl 40-50 regardless of the actual item. Unless that is how it will break down, BiS WILL be a thing. The quote from the FAQ doesn't mention anything about how gear will be obtained, what kind of time is involved, or that BiS situations will not happen. All it says is that it will be slower, which I take to mean slower than the gear vending machines that are modern MMOs. I see the loot being very close to what we saw in games like EQ. Items will be useful for longer and items will be less plentifull.
I agree that there will be a "Best-in-slot necklace for a Gnome Wizard in a Frigid climate on a Tuesday." But I don't think that's what most people would think of when they hear BiS. In order for gear to be desirable, I believe it does have to be the "best" at something. But with so many caveats, it's not truly the best item for that slot imo. In order to literally be BiS, it would have to be undeniably the best item to have equipped 100% of the time in all situations. You can say that's just semantics, but I believe using proper terminology prevents misunderstandings. BiS is a buzzword for a lot of people, and personally I think it's important to differentiate items that are literally BiS from items that are best in certain situations.
Yea, thats bad luck or maybe I am just a lucky person. I started EQ after Kunark had launched in 2000. I got to 45 and went into Lguk with a guild group. Fought down to Frenzy where a group had it camped. We killed other stuff for a couple hours when the other group left. We took Frenzy and stayed there for three or four hours maybe. By the time we left three of us had FBSS.
I can only remember one time I spent a disgusting amount of time camping anything in EQ. That was for Stormtalon in Iceclad. It spawned every 30ish hours. I caught someone right after they had killed him so I grabbed the camp and sat there for 36 hours waiting. That was different because it wasn't random. thats just how long his spawn timer was. He spawned, I killed him. I got my guild to help me kill Lodizal for the other map piece, then about an hour later I had finished my quest for that sick eye patch with the haste clicky. I forget the name off the top of my head.
EQ's spawn and loot system was random as ****, or so it seemed. I'm sure there was some logic behind how it worked, unless it was all RNG. In any case, again neither your scenerio nor mine is the rule. It runs more down the middle where it takes a lot of time, but not quite THAT much time. I think maybe we both saw extreme cases of good and bad luck of the draw.
It doesn't change the fact that saying "It will be this way" is not a fair statement to say at this point because you don't know. If every named npc spawned every chance it could, and dropped it's rare item every time it was killed it'd still be less of a gear vending machine than WoW and the rest of the modern MMOs. Every other thing you kill in WoW throws gear at you, and depending on how soon after an expansion is launched that crap gear from that random no name npc trash could be better than your tier3-5 (or whatever im making numbers up) raid gear you got last week.
What I am getting at is, we don't know what VR means exactly when it says that gear will come slower and be more memorable. What are we comparing this to? WoW? Everquest? EQ2? Tera? Archeage? Insert Random MMO Name Here? Each of those could wildly change what "Slower" and "Memorable" means.
Bazgrim said:e will be a "Best-in-slot necklace for a Gnome Wizard in a Frigid climate on a Tuesday." But I don't think that's what most people would think of when they hear BiS. In order for gear to be desirable, I believe it does have to be the "best" at something. But with so many caveats, it's not truly the best item for that slot imo. In order to literally be BiS, it would have to be undeniably the best item to have equipped 100% of the time in all situations. You can say that's just semantics, but I believe using proper terminology prevents misunderstandings. BiS is a buzzword for a lot of people, and personally I think it's important to differentiate items that are literally BiS from items that are best in certain situations.
I am betting that gear will not be the only or even the easiest way to combat climate or other environmental effects. I am betting on VR putting in potions and other craftables that could handle that on its own. buffs from other classes could also be put in to combat the effects. It could end up being that you wouldn't need any special gear to combat the environment. You might be able to do so with other items. If this is true, then you could find that one BiS item that was most effcient for pure dps/tank/heals for your class. This is what I am betting on. I do not see VR forcing a huge grind for gear just to see content. This is why I am SURE you will see BiS gear being the most sought after. People will do the maths and find that one gear setup that pulls together everything you need to be the best at your overall role and still combat the envronment. When that happens and it gets posted to some site someplace, everyone and their brother's dog will be after those few pieces of gear. Thats when we will see the cookie cutter clones appear. Mahaps those BiS itmes are raid items and rare as hell on top of coming from an npc that spawns once a week. You won't see many people with those items for sure, but those will still be the goal for most.
It will be more time consuming to get gear, but all the same rules apply just as they have since this genere was born. nothing has changed in that respect. VR is just making it more of a time sink to get there than WoW and those who came after did.
again though, this is ALL speculation, not fact. Neither one of us has any idea how it will be until we get into the game. You can HOPE it will be that way. You can believe it will be that way. You cannot say that it WILL be that way. Not yet.
kellindil said:Bazgrim said:e will be a "Best-in-slot necklace for a Gnome Wizard in a Frigid climate on a Tuesday." But I don't think that's what most people would think of when they hear BiS. In order for gear to be desirable, I believe it does have to be the "best" at something. But with so many caveats, it's not truly the best item for that slot imo. In order to literally be BiS, it would have to be undeniably the best item to have equipped 100% of the time in all situations. You can say that's just semantics, but I believe using proper terminology prevents misunderstandings. BiS is a buzzword for a lot of people, and personally I think it's important to differentiate items that are literally BiS from items that are best in certain situations.
I am betting that gear will not be the only or even the easiest way to combat climate or other environmental effects. I am betting on VR putting in potions and other craftables that could handle that on its own. buffs from other classes could also be put in to combat the effects. It could end up being that you wouldn't need any special gear to combat the environment. You might be able to do so with other items. If this is true, then you could find that one BiS item that was most effcient for pure dps/tank/heals for your class. This is what I am betting on. I do not see VR forcing a huge grind for gear just to see content. This is why I am SURE you will see BiS gear being the most sought after. People will do the maths and find that one gear setup that pulls together everything you need to be the best at your overall role and still combat the envronment. When that happens and it gets posted to some site someplace, everyone and their brother's dog will be after those few pieces of gear. Thats when we will see the cookie cutter clones appear. Mahaps those BiS itmes are raid items and rare as hell on top of coming from an npc that spawns once a week. You won't see many people with those items for sure, but those will still be the goal for most.
It will be more time consuming to get gear, but all the same rules apply just as they have since this genere was born. nothing has changed in that respect. VR is just making it more of a time sink to get there than WoW and those who came after did.
again though, this is ALL speculation, not fact. Neither one of us has any idea how it will be until we get into the game. You can HOPE it will be that way. You can believe it will be that way. You cannot say that it WILL be that way. Not yet.
Yeah I largely don't disagree with you. You're right that there will be plenty of other methods of acclimation other than gear. They stated that pretty clearly in the last stream. It was just an example. There will be other forms of situational gear. For example, gear that is preferred when fighting undead. Or other gear that is preferred when fighting dragons. But, as a side note, I did find that quote from Kilsin about too much climate gear actually potentially being a bad thing. Granted, I may have misremembered it a little bit, but it's still worth stating:
"Q: It is possible to be acclimated to all climates at once?
Kilsin: I am fairly sure if you have the right gear and have trained well enough you should be able to but by the time you do you will be very high level and very experienced at the game, some sacrifices will need to be made in the early to mid game to visit certain areas and in some cases progression into or past those areas may be prevented until you meet the requirements or get better gear/better acclimatized, a high-level zone that you are not acclimatized to will kill you in seconds without the proper requirements :)"
(Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4618/stream-questions)
Yes this is speculation but it is also what VR has stated to be their intentions. And that's really the best thing I can go off of at this point. Whether or not they actually execute it will have to be determined in testing and beyond. So yeah, even if there does end up being some items that are generally agreed to be the best in most or all situations, the "clone syndrome" can be counteracted by making sure those items are hard to get. Whether it be increasing the required time invested, low drop rates, or sheer skill required. Which is really what the OP was about anyway I think.
I don't want to get too sidetracked. I have never heard VR say that gear will have random stats, so it's probably pretty safe to say that it will not be the case in Pantheon, especially since it actually seems to contradict their design goals.