What I'm not sure you're understanding Fluffy is the shear volume of work and resources required to set up what you're talking about. The webwork of variables is enormous. Balancing that would be exponentially more taxing than a traditional MMO. It also limits who you can group with to do things by its very nature. A righteous paladin wouldnt feesibly group with an outright evil necromancer and pursue similar goals. The premise of enforcing a moral path conflicts with those two character types cooperating.
Fluffy said:Even with actions ruling over the stats on gear,you could still find or create upgrades:
example,a rogue might take on the challenges of a perilous poisoned zone
in a mission to discover a new poison to enhance his dagger with.It is not the sims because ingame actions are the deciding factor in stat gain/loss.
A paladin gaining the sword on low power has a goal: to learn and unlock the potentials of the item on the journey.
To find items and places where he can upgrade or enhance his equipment
Through your actions and involvement with the world you unlock its powers
So there are defined goals still ,and the sims lack any defined goals so it is far from playing the sims.
Nobody said gear acquisition needs to be removed.A shift of focus is needed thoughAnd Iksar,there could be many more sects and factions a wizard,cleric,necromancer could specialize with.
Just gave one example for each class.The game would know that a cleric purified a shrine just like the game would know a player killed a friendly target.(if that was possible)
Sure we need freedom to be whoever we are,and suppose there could be a pale necromancer with goofy friends from the other side.
In order to gain the freedom to be whomever we want to be,the game world needs to offer the content and the choice for us to be who we want to be,giving that purpose
Mechanics that support Systems like this are innovative, and I would love to see them. (underline mine, above)
The solution to the implementation issues inherent with such mechanics are: caps. Caps (limits) on everything. Then you can allow players to customize, specialize, enhance, enchant, whatever, as much as they want. As long as there are reasonable caps in place, it takes designers LESS time, because item creation is essentially now in the hands of the players. Eventually, some developer is going to give up this control, and they will have the distinction of revolutionizing the genre.
Feyshtey said:What I'm not sure you're understanding Fluffy is the shear volume of work and resources required to set up what you're talking about. The webwork of variables is enormous. Balancing that would be exponentially more taxing than a traditional MMO.
I have no clue about the work and resources required lol
Equipping certain items can change the player's abilities and skills.
These changes are in place only while the item is equipped and are not permanent.Items may increase or decrease stats (or both) depending on the item equipped.
(cursed items,situation gear might affect stats differently,heavy-medium-light armor could affect agility :how well a player can move the body,and how quickly.)
Handicaps related to item I talked about in my initial post: Agility -20, Magic -60 for helmet - will slow you down,certain type of spells lose effectiveness with helmet on
Handicaps will play a very important role as player will need to make crucial tactical decisions for how they'll continue the adventure in certain zones.
Also abilities like strength could not only affect how hard you strike in combat,or how much you can carry in your inventory:
Certain tasks could be drawn against strength to complete
Next to that we also have the caps Vjek mentioned.Thresholds are needed.
Apprentice thresholds might range between 15 and 100
Novice thresholds might range between 100 and 200
Expert thresholds might range between 200 and 300
master thresholds might range between 300 and 400
Grandmaster thresholds might range between 400 and 500
An epic item like a paladin sword could push the minimum up to 420
So depending on your actions you'd range between 420 and 500
A cursed epic item might cap it at 470 (and then you'll have to go on the quest to lift the curse)
Some classes have an aptititude to certain skills and abilities which will give them exceptional caps.
Like a warrior could gain 550 strength ,a wizard 550 intelligence, a rogue 550 agility
Lets return to the honor system of the paladin
at 100 honor they'll unlock a healing spell,at 200 they can forge themselves a holy sword, at 550 they can sense danger
Some classes would shine in areas other classes could never shine.
Because not only do certain task draw against certain stat to be able to be completed.
The specialization cap of 550 can't be reached by any other class,which means the skills and abilities that unlock above the allround threshold for these classes
are unique
Logically ,it should only be your actions that affect your stats ,unlocking the powers of your wears. Wonder if there could be cooperative elements too.I remember in swtor choosing the light path while my other team mates took the dark path and that didn't bother me much. -their choice- I thought to myself. Something to think about for sure.
But you would still be forcing players to play a certain way in this scenario, to essentially roleplay. Maybe someone wants to play a Paladin as they like the skills and playstyle but not the "honor" and lawful nature etc. It's a big "Well sorry, you want to be the best in your class you have to play THIS way"
We always roleplay,it is just the content that is featured that opens up possibilities.
When you choose a class,you make a choice :a certain role,a playstyle.You can't get around that.
They could spoil us with the luxury of a class advancement system later on.
Infact the honor system gives you more choice than what MMOs usually offer;the possibility for a paladin to be cruel,selfish and dishonest
In such a manner that they'd be rotten enough for holy wars and inquisitions.
Also an issue is that some people will never be happy with the content they receive.
Reminds me of these little brittain sketches of a man who want to buy a painting of a disappointed horse
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4n5ei_mr-mann-1-little-britain-painting_fun
If the content does not cover what you want,you can act/pretend your character is the way you exactly want it.
But that only goes so far
Its like saying
-the character creator forces me to pick one of the available hairstyle or faces while I want a different one-
Wow, lots covered and talked about, great posts, good references back to the FAQ, etc.
I just wanted to add/verify one little thing: to really make this system work like we want it there need to be several items desirable by someone of the same class and level. That doesn't mean we're going to copy the item and put it in more than one place, although that's close. The plan is to alter, give personality and name to a set of items, and make them desirable to that class and level range. And then, yes, put them in different parts of the world.
I wanted to bring this up specifically because it also will help significantly with competition for items. If you put the best item for a specific class of a certain level range in one spot, not only does it make itemization less interesting, it also makes everyone in that category want the same thing, and then it creates too much competition and crowding.
The easy way some games (the specific games some of you mentioned accurately) try to get around this is indeed random loot. We could create 30 items that clerics levels 20-23 would find desirable, change their stats just slightly, procedurally generate a name for the item (the item of the Whale!), and then randomly put them in level appropirate mobs around the world.
Many of you probably have noticed that I like to bring up two extremes and point out that very often the best route is down the middle. Human nature often likes to mimic a pendulum. There's a problem with something someone designed. A different person comes in later, tasked with fixing the issue, and moves the pendulum from one extreme to the other, often eliminating the first issue but then creating a new problem (sometimes worse, sometimes perhaps not as bad, as the original issue). This isn't just in game design either -- look at the world, politics, laws that are passed, etc. Back and forth things go between two extremes because it's often far easier to implement a pendulum swinging fix, whereas extra time, thought, and effort is often necessary to find that happy, balanced, medium.
Back to topic, heh. So our task is not to have fewer items that everyone will have or at least want at any given time. So also is it not to procedurally spew random items with no context or meaning all over the world. The middle ground is to keep items handcrafted (made by a designer, not a formula), spend the time to give it some context, a proper name, etc. And then, based on its rarity, the demand for it, etc., create items similar in power but still handcrafted, and place those elsewhere.
Tougher to do? Yes. Will there still be items over camped? Probably -- we will mess up and create an item but not realize the demand there will be for it, place it somewhere, and as people find out about it, there may be some crowding and frustration. Our job then is also to monitor and watch for these situations and react in a reasonable amount of time. Not ideal, no, but IMHO better than the two extremes.
Aradune said:The easy way some games (the specific games some of you mentioned accurately) try to get around this is indeed random loot. We could create 30 items that clerics levels 20-23 would find desirable, change their stats just slightly, procedurally generate a name for the item (the item of the Whale!), and then randomly put them in level appropirate mobs around the world.
...
Not ideal, no, but IMHO better than the two extremes.
I hope this is one of the extremes, 20-30 items that are desirable at any level sub 50 is to many items IMO. I really liked that in EQ item scarceity meant when you got an item you really improved and held on to that item. Vanguard didn't do bad but the fact that every ten levels you where completly replacing your gear didn't sit well with me.
Logically the amount an item is copied and put in more than once place,would decide if it is common /uncommon.
And there is nothing wrong with common items,infact I think they should be made more accepted.
Situational gear helps with that as it gives value to even common items because they are useful in some situations.
A much found item could be a chainmail (common),common would not mean it is unuseful.
Then you'd have Wyvern chainmail (uncommon) which is slightly better than a common item and protects the target slightly better from the armor piercing of a wyvern.
Then there could be artifacts like the Paladin's sword of which its powers can be unlocked through player action.So you'd have reason to hold on to that item.
When common items are acceptable/have use ,it is ok for players to have common items.The competition for items is gone as the common items have purpose and value.So they'll be in circulation
Overall I think there is nothing wrong with common items having many copies ,being more in circulation
Common items could have context and meaning
Special,uncommon items are slightly better and have a special property.
But the difference in power should not be that great for common items to lose all value to players.
If we want players to spend meaningful time in each area,we cant have them obsessed with promises of much greater power at endgame*.(I believe everything on the journey should be part of the test)
If Pantheon has more to offer than powerful items,I think players will stick.
Unconsciously I think we all are looking for more in MMOs
And not even an item of god can make players stick if the game is lacking the rest.
Artifact items could help with giving a feel to a certain class if players desire to play them in a different nature/with a different feel to it.
An enchanter could find the rare artifact -Frostwitch wand- in one of the cold zones of the world.Who has the ability to freeze terrain.
Elsewhere the enchanter could gain possession of a Mesmer wand - which can summon all kinds of illusions.
So through artifacts the variety Iksar was looking for ,could be achieved too.
I also like the idea of items being upgradable ,maybe if players keep on to it long enough it could really become your own like -Fluffy's wand (the ability to become so fluffy the enemy has a greater miss chance)
Aradune said:Wow, lots covered and talked about, great posts, good references back to the FAQ, etc.
I just wanted to add/verify one little thing: to really make this system work like we want it there need to be several items desirable by someone of the same class and level. That doesn't mean we're going to copy the item and put it in more than one place, although that's close. The plan is to alter, give personality and name to a set of items, and make them desirable to that class and level range. And then, yes, put them in different parts of the world.
I wanted to bring this up specifically because it also will help significantly with competition for items. If you put the best item for a specific class of a certain level range in one spot, not only does it make itemization less interesting, it also makes everyone in that category want the same thing, and then it creates too much competition and crowding.
The easy way some games (the specific games some of you mentioned accurately) try to get around this is indeed random loot. We could create 30 items that clerics levels 20-23 would find desirable, change their stats just slightly, procedurally generate a name for the item (the item of the Whale!), and then randomly put them in level appropirate mobs around the world.
Many of you probably have noticed that I like to bring up two extremes and point out that very often the best route is down the middle. Human nature often likes to mimic a pendulum. There's a problem with something someone designed. A different person comes in later, tasked with fixing the issue, and moves the pendulum from one extreme to the other, often eliminating the first issue but then creating a new problem (sometimes worse, sometimes perhaps not as bad, as the original issue). This isn't just in game design either -- look at the world, politics, laws that are passed, etc. Back and forth things go between two extremes because it's often far easier to implement a pendulum swinging fix, whereas extra time, thought, and effort is often necessary to find that happy, balanced, medium.
Back to topic, heh. So our task is not to have fewer items that everyone will have or at least want at any given time. So also is it not to procedurally spew random items with no context or meaning all over the world. The middle ground is to keep items handcrafted (made by a designer, not a formula), spend the time to give it some context, a proper name, etc. And then, based on its rarity, the demand for it, etc., create items similar in power but still handcrafted, and place those elsewhere.
Tougher to do? Yes. Will there still be items over camped? Probably -- we will mess up and create an item but not realize the demand there will be for it, place it somewhere, and as people find out about it, there may be some crowding and frustration. Our job then is also to monitor and watch for these situations and react in a reasonable amount of time. Not ideal, no, but IMHO better than the two extremes.
Thanks for the reply and helping us refocus the conversation Arardune.
This does sound like a pretty good compromise and I'll look forward to seeing it in action. I do think it's going to be challenging for the team to find that sweet spot between too many options and not enough, and I forsee level ranges where there's either feast or famine. Hopfully the plan is to have a tiger team who is independent of future development or CS duties, and whose sole responsibility is evaluation and remediation of gameplay or balance issues.
I am definately in the 'base items have set stats' camp.
However I wonder if having some RNG element in whatever the crafting and / or item upgrade systems become might be good. Not necessarily 100% RNG but some variance, and perhaps tied to crafting skill etc. Perhaps the process can be repeated if a different result is desired.
I think it would be cool to occansionally get an exceptional item or enchancement through crafting (perhaps only 5-10% better, nothing overpowered). It would also tie in well to the hints at item naming I have seen in the pledge rewards.
Yes, this was just another Blackened Iron Bastard Sword to begin with, but thanks to the efforts of [insert crafting or enhancement process here] it is now "Blacktalon", and while it is not overpowered is uniqiue in some small way. I gift this to you, and may it serve you well.
Aradune said:Many of you probably have noticed that I like to bring up two extremes and point out that very often the best route is down the middle. Human nature often likes to mimic a pendulum. There's a problem with something someone designed. A different person comes in later, tasked with fixing the issue, and moves the pendulum from one extreme to the other, often eliminating the first issue but then creating a new problem (sometimes worse, sometimes perhaps not as bad, as the original issue). This isn't just in game design either -- look at the world, politics, laws that are passed, etc. Back and forth things go between two extremes because it's often far easier to implement a pendulum swinging fix, whereas extra time, thought, and effort is often necessary to find that happy, balanced, medium.
Quoting this for emphasis. This is so ridiculously true it's not even funny. I like the analogy of the pendulum. I see this type of behavior all the time and I constantly try to resist the laziness and lack of creativity of dealing in extremes. As I always say, the best answer almost always lies somewhere in between the two extremes. Thanks for your input Aradune.
it would be ok if hp and mp/stam are the only stats raised when leveling up .If we'd get skillpoints awarded aside.
In this scenario, other stats can only be raised through ingame means
Hold that thought,
a few more things to think about concerning stats
Inter-related factors affecting stats
Health could be determined by adding two-thirds of your vitality to one-third of your Strength
So if you have a Strength of 30 and a vitality of 60 ,your max HP is 50.ofcourse in the game world there will be many things affecting both vitality and strength in positive/negative ways
If Hp falls below 0 ,there could be an unconscious phase for your character too.
When it falls to a negative number equivalent to the character's endurance,the character dies.Ofcourse when a character grows hungry and weak,eventually,
it will affect how much a character can take in the unconsious phase before dying.
Certain atmospheres would impact your endurance if you plan your trip poorly,wear gear that is less suited.
You can wear gear that is less suited ,you'll turn weak quicker and you'd need more food to keep yourself from going weak.
Class specific stat importance/stat Relevance for certain class
Rogue,Dire Lord, Druids,and Wizards might see their mana points maxes rise with the Intellect stat
Whereas Monks, Rangers,Enchanter,Bard, Paladins,Druids and Clerics will see it go up alongside their Personality/charisma stat
Basic stat Thresholds
Might be my favorite one,I like the idea that,whereas you might be expecting a higher stat to be more effective,it not always being the case lol
Stat 11 penalty -1,stat 13 bonus 0 ,Stat 15 bonus +1 ,stat 17 bonus +2 ,stat 19 bonus +3, stat 21 bonus +4,stat 25 bonus +5,stat 30 bonus +6
stat 35 bonus +7, stat 40 bonus +8 ,stat 50 bonus +9 ,stat 75 bonus +10,stat 100 bonus +11
stat 125 bonus +12,stat 150 bonus +13,stat 175 bonus +14,stat 200 bonus +15
Stat 300 bonus +19,stat 350 bonus +20
Also stat 0 penalty of x amount.So if you become drunk you can take a blow to intelligence for example.
So a stat of 300 and a stat of 330 provide the exact same benefits.
Haven't even started to mention all the other things that factor in ,affecting stats,so exciting when reading through the Pantheon differences
Fluffy said:it would be ok if hp and mp/stam are the only stats raised when leveling up .If we'd get skillpoints awarded aside.
In this scenario, other stats can only be raised through ingame meansHold that thought,
a few more things to think about concerning stats...
I'm not much of a fan of stats relying on one another in that way. I think a much better approach is simply a per class stat influence, which EQ had to some degree. For a level 60 warrior 1 STA = 6 hp but for Intelligence casters 1 STA = 2.4 hp. It further helped some items not to overlap between class types as much because while some classes wanted stamina on an item others wanted straight +hp. Which also ties into class specific stat importance...which I think every MMO has had to some degree.
Not sure what you are talking about with stat thresholds, do you mean like DnD? What does the bonus mean/do?
SOme current mechanics from which one can alter by 60% to use and claim as unique:
campfires and fellowships, A system implemented in EQ that desceibes exactly what a caravan is- if 2 people in a fellowship of 6 are in a spot, one can set up a campfire- and all other 4 in the fellowship (not guild, each person can be in a different guild) can click on thier little campfire model and appear- wherever the two are.
Item usefulness: EB of course- but also consider weapons that Proc which although not game changing- are valued through all levels- Chetari wadstaff with its knockback- or workers sledgehammer- giving melee types a gate function. And lets not forget the world of clickies. each mundane, but the wee harvester was useful through all levels.
Iksar said:Not sure what you are talking about with stat thresholds, do you mean like DnD? What does the bonus mean/do?
For example, an Endurance of 17 will provide 2x (where x is a character's HP gain per level) extra HP to that
character's max HP. The next stat threshold is at 19, so increasing the Endurance stat with skillpoints will do you no extra good until you reaches stat 19.
Because only at Endurance of 19 it will provide 3x
Next to class specific stat importance,
I also believe the earlier mentioned handicaps (decrease in stats depending on item equipped)
will contribute to the need for players to carefully weigh the benefit and the risk of equiping each item
What is EB Manouk?Environmental benefits?
That would certainly help to achieve making items valued/useful through all levels
Fluffy said:For example, an Endurance of 17 will provide 2x (where x is a character's HP gain per level) extra HP to that
character's max HP. The next stat threshold is at 19, so increasing the Endurance stat with skillpoints will do you no extra good until you reaches stat 19.
Because only at Endurance of 19 it will provide 3x
Ah. Well I guess it depends on how they are doing things but I hope that aside from allocating points at character creation that you only gain stats with items. It feels kind of bad to have some stat points be entirely useless outside of being a step toward the next tier of stat benefit.
these thresholds would only apply to the basic stats.
Not things like resistance and armor class (Affected by equipement,expertise in armor they use,temporary buffs by environmental objects,certain spells like stoneskin)
Maybe there could be differnt kind of resistance,like natural resistance you build by engaging the dangers in a certain atmosphere.Rare items could grant resistance or the power to wield these forces
Not sure,
I might prefer gear to only grant AC defence ,and the situational boons
While the stats are related to the mastery/skillpoint system
Example,Incinerate would be a master fire spell that deals 1-15 damage per point of skill invested in the fire line
Or the expertise in athletics would grant you x amount of stam/hp depending on how much points you invested
Then training from novice-expert-master could cost (an amount of skillpoints?) too.The scarcity of skillpoint urges players to use them wisely
Fluffy said:these thresholds would only apply to the basic stats.
Not things like resistance and armor class (Affected by equipement,expertise in armor they use,temporary buffs by environmental objects,certain spells like stoneskin)
Maybe there could be differnt kind of resistance,like natural resistance you build by engaging the dangers in a certain atmosphere.Rare items could grant resistance or the power to wield these forcesNot sure,
I might prefer gear to only grant AC defence ,and the situational boons
While the stats are related to the mastery/skillpoint system
Example,Incinerate would be a master fire spell that deals 1-15 damage per point of skill invested in the fire lineOr the expertise in athletics would grant you x amount of stam/hp depending on how much points you invested
Then training from novice-expert-master could cost (an amount of skillpoints?) too.The scarcity of skillpoint urges players to use them wisely
I am fairly certain they said somewhere they aren't going to be using a skillpoint system. I could be wrong, though that would fall into classes having very different builds which I think they are against.
Iksar said:I am fairly certain they said somewhere they aren't going to be using a skillpoint system. I could be wrong, though that would fall into classes having very different builds which I think they are against.
Since there are so many classes and races I bet they will go for a class/level system.
Wonder if a marriage of the 2 could be possible,a skillpoint system within the skill template/boundaries of a class.But then each class would
need a very robust skill template.And still within classes there would be variety that they might find too great to handle.
--------Edit:
In the kitchen you also have different types of cook;the cook who specializes in fish dishes or the poissonier
garde manger,the cook who specializes in cold foods and so on.A skillpoint system married with a class system might offer the opportunity to specialize ?Like an enchanter with a cold wand could create protective bubbles around targets and unlock more protective stuff later on, an enchanter with electric wand would be more specialized in crowd control ,stunning targets and stuff and unlock more skills towards crowd control at later levels--------------- + situational power growth/resistance in the power they wield
As they want each class to be good in certain situations
In a way ,class systems make it easy for players to avoid gimping themselves.
CLass system is easier to balance because of that,but they grow dull quicker as you only have the few viable options that work like riding a tandem bike when the 2 of you want to go in separate directions ,when it comes to choice
If somehow the skillpoint and the class system could marry,we would have classes which excel in a certain area
Yet with the integrated skillpoint system players still have the choice to mix and match skills more liberally within the limits of the robust template each class would have.
As said,moderate is the way to balance .Why look at things black or white when we could go for grey? Why always trying to fix issues moving the pendulum from one extreme to another?
The closest thing to balance probably are situational choices.
The moment any significant bonus is provided above another,players jump on it like rabid hyena
That is the reason situational gear is a step towards balance.
And why I believe it is best to have mostly common armor with situational benefits.
Ther could be artifact armor ,any bonus above other armor makes it wanted.Make it too significant and the rest of the armors do not matter any longer.
Cookie cutter builds are created with the most signifcant items.
The power of artifacts could work situational too,or only have the stronger effects in certain climats.
The paladin sword that would gain its power based on the amount of honor of a paladin is also situational.Maybe it could work like a long buff,where lack of positive actions
would also reduce its power over time.
Stats is often talked about a lot.In most games even more than the lore,or the game itself.
Players feel pretty good about themselves gathering the best of the best.
The same players that will complain the game has few choices,is boring and all those things.
The key might be situational stuff and encounters that are not predictable.
In order for common items with situation boons to maintain value throughout the game .All items have value when there is no best of the best.
Reading through the Pantheon differences I like that there is a lot more to it.Because all the spreadsheets and FOTM builds are too one-dimensional/lack the depth.
Fluffy said:In the kitchen you also have different types of cook;the cook who specializes in fish dishes or the poissonier
garde manger,the cook who specializes in cold foods and so on.A skillpoint system married with a class system might offer the opportunity to specialize ?Like an enchanter with a cold wand could create protective bubbles around targets and unlock more protective stuff later on, an enchanter with electric wand would be more specialized in crowd control ,stunning targets and stuff and unlock more skills towards crowd control at later levels--------------- + situational power growth/resistance in the power they wield
As they want each class to be good in certain situations
In a way ,class systems make it easy for players to avoid gimping themselves.
CLass system is easier to balance because of that,but they grow dull quicker as you only have the few viable options that work like riding a tandem bike when the 2 of you want to go in separate directions ,when it comes to choice
If somehow the skillpoint and the class system could marry,we would have classes which excel in a certain area
Yet with the integrated skillpoint system players still have the choice to mix and match skills more liberally within the limits of the robust template each class would have.
As said,moderate is the way to balance .Why look at things black or white when we could go for grey? Why always trying to fix issues moving the pendulum from one extreme to another?
In this scenario I think you have it a bit off. Using a chef example would be more like this: Chef is the core class type, so lets just say "Intellect Caster" but the actual class would be the TYPE of chef. So let's say the Saucier Chef is the Enchanter, he is already in his specialization in the cooking world and is expected to be able to perform everything that falls into the sauté chef's purview. The class itself is the specialization, further splitting them with different builds stands to change grouping substantially.
So it would be like scholar is the core type,while enchanter,wizard are specializations.
Starting out specialized I'd surely miss the freedom to realize potential and to reap reward from doing so.
Starting out as initiate or scholar sounds more exciting if you put it like that.
Well,we have the option to rebirth after 10 levels if we discover a class is not the *right* one for us
There have been games where there were first and second promotions ;example ranger- sentinel -warden
or bountyhunter -sniper
I thought they mentioned somewhere post release they might consider advancements. In draconica class advancement got me the most excited about the whole game.
Nothing else in mmo's ever have got me as excited as class advancements.But maybe I'll appreciate growth through engagement with the world just as much.Not sure
I personally cannot stand variable stats on loot. I absolutely love grinding a dungeon with a low drop rate for a specific piece of gear, but I hate getting that piece, and then having to continue the grind for the same piece to try for better stats. I'd just prefer to grind harder/longer, and get that final reward from that specific dungeon so I have attained my goal, and move to the next one. Few Asian based games that I've played that either have the variable stats or variable enhancements on combine. They just don't appeal to me in the slightest. Could I live with it in Panthenon, meh, if I have to, but definitely would fall well outside of preference. If anything, I'd prefer the character skill with using whatever item provide a variance in the performance of said piece. ...ie...if I'm more proficient in a sword than you are, then I should do more dmg. If I"m more proficient with plate wrist armor, then it should absorb more dmg than yours does. ...that type of thing. ....that type of system would truly be based on an individuals effort and attention to specific content or resources, versus a random variable generator.
Random variables are ther worst,they make me want to puke in the soup of the day
Imagine for a moment these would be stats
Smelliness could be affected by individual effort;players would have to engage the world to smell less.
How could a stat like agility be affected by active individual effort ,so that they have to engage the world and can't level it afk?
And what would decrease agility? Just like how smelliness could increase by certain activities,agility might go down by certain events on the journey
Smelliness could also factor into NPC behavior towards character lol
Mod Edit: Removed images, please keep threads image free unless showing the devs something for comparing.
++ Originally posted in a somewhat derailed thread: ++
++ Transplanted to this more appropriate thread at the behest of another ++
In many ways, this 'Best in Slot' (BiS) argument is a symptom of 'casual creep' into MMOs.
1. Obscured stats to 'simplify':
While hiding the actual stat numbers on an item may seem a step forwards; perhaps replacing item stats with broad stat-range labels such as 'good', 'very fast' or merely using colours to represent 'rarity' (such as 'Blue items' > 'Green items'), these do not remove the BiS 'issue' many have. It merely pushes DEV imagined item worth onto the player (since it is the DEVs who decide what is green, blue etc) ... something which only benefits the casual player. Others will rely on posted 'BiS tables'.
2. Obscured RNG incorporated into items:
It seems to me that any RNG that is incorporated into an item will either have (i) a small range of effect on the item stats or (ii) a large range of effect on the item stats. For case (i) the effects are marginally different from point #1 (above) and will be ignored by the majority of players. For case (ii) you will have created an artificial time sink into item gain ... any items which do not perform well compared to others (in some form of standardised 'kill the level 20 orc 10x' test) will be dismantled. Casual players will use them 'as is' (since they lack time to find better) while all but the most ADHD of min/maxers will settle for a 'middling or better' version (by relying on a posted 'BiS table'.)
The answer, it seems to me, is found in a completely different direction ....
... a direction which also answers the OP's actual question about item swapping.
A. Classes must fall into a unique role.
This is essential to ensure that the 'primary' and 'secondary' stats for each Class differ, even within that role.
- Eg difference in 'important' stats between Paladin and Warrior builds, even though both are 'tank' roles.
B. All stats need to have skills/mechanics that depend on them.
Any stat without an in-game dependence will be ignored; thus, by extension, so will any item containing this stat.
There should be a wide range of skills/mechanics which use 2-3 stats to determine how effective they are.
These stat dependencies should be logical/consistent.
C. As items get more powerful, there should be more flexibiity in stats for them.
A weak (eg Lev 1-15) item would have few (0-3) stats on it, but all such would be fixed.
A minor (eg Lev 10-25) item would have some (1-3) stats on it, but some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be added.
A major (eg Lev 20-40) item would have some (2-4) stats on it, but some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be enhanced/added.
A powerful (eg Lev 35-50) item would have some (2-4) stats on it, a possible (0-1) proc/clicky, and some form of slot/augment system to allow a few to be enhanced/added.
D. Crafting can potentially add/amend item stats.
If crafting is a source of adding/amending items, whether by 'up-forging' directly (such as the current VR idea for improving items at a cost of making them no-drop) or by adding augments into slots, then this will allow players to create 'variations on a theme' for nearly all items.
What does all this accomplish?
A simple system such as this allows flexibility in weapon stats. With more moving parts, it no longer becomes a 'BiS for all' applicable for all players, irrespective of class/build. It now develops into a 'situational BiS' dependent on Class, Play-style (i.e. Build), context (enemy/encounter type) etc, since the item-meta allows for many items to all be 'BiS' for different combinations of player/challenge.
For me, the perfect system would be stats reflecting the creation process!
Eg: Mithril Longsword of Awesomeness
Base: Mithril (+25) of High Quality (+10)
Forged: Master Smithed (+10) made extra light (Wt -20%, Parry -10, STA cost -10%)
Enchanted: Journeyman Accuracy (+5),
Runed: (1) Lesser Light rune (5' radius, torch) (2) Resist Fire (+5% RR) (3) Resist Lightning (+5 RR)
Augment: (1) Major Emerald of healing (Regen +2hp/tick held) (2) Relic Emerald of health (clicky, Heal +250hp, 3/day)
All this gives a Longsword :
+50 to hit, -10 parry, STA use -10%, glows like a weak torch, +5 Resist Fire/Lightning
Held (regen +2hp/tick), Clicky 3x/day heal +250hp.
Great vs Fire Trolls, not so good vs Ice Skellies. Less useful for a Pally probably. Maybe best for a Ranger, so he can be 2nd to die, not 1st.
TL;DR
There is no need to 'dumb down' item stats/descriptors. If items are 'the sum of their parts', and all game stats have use, then there will always be more than one BiS for any given circumstance. Certainly, there will inevitably be some great combination that turns out to be 'best' for a given class fighting a given enemy.... but this will be rarer than the standard 'item X' is always BiS for all players/this class.
This means players will have a few 'versatile' items rather than whole 'sets of gear' to have to switch between.
Evoras, typed waaay too much this time, and may have lost sight of his point!
Aradune said:Wow, lots covered and talked about, great posts, good references back to the FAQ, etc.
I just wanted to add/verify one little thing: to really make this system work like we want it there need to be several items desirable by someone of the same class and level. That doesn't mean we're going to copy the item and put it in more than one place, although that's close. The plan is to alter, give personality and name to a set of items, and make them desirable to that class and level range. And then, yes, put them in different parts of the world.
I wanted to bring this up specifically because it also will help significantly with competition for items. If you put the best item for a specific class of a certain level range in one spot, not only does it make itemization less interesting, it also makes everyone in that category want the same thing, and then it creates too much competition and crowding.
Exactly the way it should be, we have seen the "Instanced version" handle it this way and you would purchase it after the raid with so many coins or simply wait until the higher end drops.
Rather dull way of doing it. Your way makes so much sence to the way it used to be prior to Velious. Hate, fear, Naggy, Vox etc... different pieces.
Your best to explain that system.