The problem with randomized loot and the Pantheon vision is that randomized loot takes away the "Awe" factor from loot. To randomize loot you would need to also randomize graphics. In the way that, no one graphic is tied to a specific stat combination. So you end up with a graphic that looks super awesome, but might have complete **** stats. This could be useful as a cosmetic item, but it makes getting gear more "meh" in my opinion. Gear becomes less recognizable as being a piece of epic loot.
WoW created this problem by creating tierd gear sets. There is a "set" of items that your class should get. Its cookie cutter so as to not hurt the children's heads with too much thinking. They hold your hand and tell you what items you "need" to be a good Paladin or whatever.
In Pantheon, so it seems from what VR has said thus far, that will not be the case. There is no gear tiers. They seem to intend the gear to work closer to what we saw in past games like EQ, where items are individual items not part of a set. There will not be one graphic for every Paladin armor set, because they don;t want that to happen.
Now, we will see people sporting the same gear and looks i'm sure. VR wants items to be more meaningful, memorable, more special. So you most likely will not see a lot of stat gear. It is more likely that you will see a game more akin to what EQ is and Vanguard was. You might not even have a piece of gear with stats on it until you are well into your 20's. Hell you might not even have all your gear slots filled period ntil you are into your 20s. This is how EQ is and Vanguard was, though to a lesser degree I think.
In WoW you have stat gear by level 5. In EQ when I played back in 2000, and just a year or so ago when the newest TLP server started and we got reset to vanilla EQ, I was almost into my 30's before I got any real gear. Until then I scrimped every plat I could just to afford a set of banded mail, which is just plain armor with absolutely no stats. I speculate this is closer to how Pantheon will be, though I think to a lesser degree. From the FAQ quotes made here and from the talk on the streams and such, we believe VR is headed down this path.
I highly doubt we will see the same issues you saw in WoW. This game isn't shaping up to be anything like WoW (thank god). Not from what we have seen thus far.
As for spells, we will all most likely be using the same spells. I mean thats just how it is. There is no way that I can see that they could make a class play in an entirely different way so as that two people could use entirely different spell sets. There might be some custimization and some variance to play style or what spells one might prefer, but for the most part we will all be doing the same thing on a high level I would think. Once again we will see people run the math on every spell and find the most optiomal combination and everyone will begin using that cookie cutter spell "rotation" for lack of a better word.
Wizards will blast stuff with spells. You might be able to choose between the damage types, but that will likely be dictated by the target more so than your preference. I just don't see how they could avoid that short of making classes so customizable that they are hardly "classes". ESO style I mean. That does not seem to fall in line with VR's design objectives.
As for gear though, I think you will not see too many people running around with the exact same gear. Not to the level you do in WoW. Now in EQ everyone looked exactly alike because armor graphics were standardized across the races. So all chain armor had the same graphic on a Wood Elf regardless. The only veriation was color. The exception being the Luclin class specific armors. They had a unique texture, which made them the most awesomely epic looking armor in EQ. They were so iconic during Velious, then they changed the models in Luclin, returned everything to the bland same old same old. :(
In my experience, in EQ, the Main tank warriors in the top 7 guilds world wide looked NOTHING alike gear wise until around PoP.
I dislike the idea of randomized loot in Pantheon. It lends itself to a game like StarWars Online where crafters made everything and there was randomization to that. That being said, I dont think I would have a problem with randomized crafted gear... just not boss/named mob drops.
Also I think having a mythic type item that drops only the first or first couple of times a raid mob is killed would be a sweet idea.
I'm not against seeing it at the lower levels maybe, but as rarity and power increases, I'd personally prefer to see less and less, or even no RnG at all in item creation.
Only exception is in crafting. I always thought it was kinda cool when some items of crafting could yield different qualities of certain things, like a bow with more range, but slightly more delay too, or one with very low range, but very fast delat, or a nice all around bow etc, but all carry the same "item_name" and have created by etc on it
I prefer items getting static stats.
With static stats I'd say : "I got my cobalt breastplate".
With random stats I'd say : "I got a cobalt breastplate", cause I could get another one with better stats. Maybe it's a bit of a paradox and a bit stupid, but in my mind it makes it less valuable and less unique.
Personally I'd love many cosmetic options
while keeping the power related stats on gear to a minimum.(the very basic stats only)
A heavy emphasis on situational gear stats, and only basic power stats (armor range betwen 5-15 max)
Light could provide 5, medium 10 and heavy armor 15
Armor,weapons and charms adjust stats when you equip them.
Some of the special items have bonuses but they always come with a handicap too
Shield/helmet -
Bonuses: Defense +30 (for each 10 defense you gain 1 armor and 1 block rate)
Handicaps: Agility -20, Magic -60, Acrobatics -100
Reafwalk said: So yeah, sometimes you'll see an item, want it, and aquire it in a couple hours. Sometimes you'll see an item (Cloak of the Raksasha, or some such spelling) and spend weeks or months trying to get it. But it'll be something that you can set your sights on and work towards. You won't have the issue of seeing someone with a really cool item and knowing that regardless of how hard you tru, you might only get the watered down version of it, and that it'll come from some random kill in some random place. There is a lot to be said for giving people the ability to set themselves goals, and giving them a reasonable way to set a path for those goals. Also, from setting, planning, and achieving those goals comes the sense of accomplishment that is so sorely lacking in modern games.
THIS!
This is such a understated thing, and so incredibly invaluable. I believe it's one of the aspects of EQ that is among the top in the list of "secret sauce" that made EQ so compelling. Giving players those bucket list goals that they hope to one day accomplish is so huge in keeping them in the game. That idea that there's this thing out there that you always wanted, or even that you knew other people always wanted, is a huge driving factor in why people continue to log in day after day, month after month. And it becomes so powerful that even when you've advanced past the point at which the item is actually beneficial to your character you still have that itch to go back and check it off the list.
Edit:
I cant say how many hours I spent (at work) pouring over Alla's and EQMaps and other sites, plotting out what I hoped to accomplish in the game. No other game has ever compelled me to do that. And even now on those odd months that I renew my EQ subscription I do this today. That desire to research what's possible, how I might achieve it, what it will take... I so sorely miss that aspect of MMOs. It just doesnt exist in anything else I've experienced.
Special items should indeed take a huge effort to get.Looking forward to those is a huge reason to be excited.Urges the understanding that player involvement is required for progression and that apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
Also ,the power special items wield,shouldn't necessarily be related to destructive powers
King's Ring
The ring needs to be forged in dragon blood,so you fist need to find and defeat a dragon
Ring of Truth
purified by the blood of a Paladin, and tempered in the waters of the river Styx.
This rare and powerful ring has the powers over truth and falsehood. While wearing this, a Paladin cannot tell a lie, and he will always know when a lie is spoken.
Paladin Sword
This symbol of honor is the Paladin's shining beacon of justice.
He only draws this blade as a last resort, when the desire for peace has failed. The flame enveloping the sword strikes fear in the heart of evil.The intensity of the flame of justice depends on the amount of honor a paladin has gathered
Waterbreathing Amulet
This charm pumps oxygen into your lungs while you're underwater, given to races other than Dark Myr if they achieve beloved reputation with them
Wizard's Staff
Crafted from very rare magic wood
This staff is a weapon you can use physically against your enemies. However,it's far more useful as a spell enhancer.
Upon reaching 0 hp the amount of the mana left is used as extra lifeforce.A wizard's life energy is connected with the staff
I want hand crafted, lore appropriate gear that the mobs themselves will wear and use until I seperate them from it.
If a mob spawns with a haste ring it better be using it and be noticably tougher.
Randomized drops are for throw away loot grinders... We need iconic items that you can reference with just an abreviation and people will know what you mean.
Great gear needs to be rare enough that you just don't see that many people using it.
Kiz~
Feyshtey said:Reafwalk said: So yeah, sometimes you'll see an item, want it, and aquire it in a couple hours. Sometimes you'll see an item (Cloak of the Raksasha, or some such spelling) and spend weeks or months trying to get it. But it'll be something that you can set your sights on and work towards.[...] There is a lot to be said for giving people the ability to set themselves goals, and giving them a reasonable way to set a path for those goals. Also, from setting, planning, and achieving those goals comes the sense of accomplishment that is so sorely lacking in modern games.THIS!
This is such a understated thing, and so incredibly invaluable. I believe it's one of the aspects of EQ that is among the top in the list of "secret sauce" that made EQ so compelling. Giving players those bucket list goals that they hope to one day accomplish is so huge in keeping them in the game. That idea that there's this thing out there that you always wanted, or even that you knew other people always wanted, is a huge driving factor in why people continue to log in day after day, month after month. And it becomes so powerful that even when you've advanced past the point at which the item is actually beneficial to your character you still have that itch to go back and check it off the list.
Edit:
I cant say how many hours I spent (at work) pouring over Alla's and EQMaps and other sites, plotting out what I hoped to accomplish in the game. No other game has ever compelled me to do that. And even now on those odd months that I renew my EQ subscription I do this today. That desire to research what's possible, how I might achieve it, what it will take... I so sorely miss that aspect of MMOs. It just doesnt exist in anything else I've experienced.
The concept is a sublte but important one. As you learn the world you also learn things like what needs a full group, what you can do Solo, and what you can do with maybe one or two more. Sort of like three tiers of self assesed difficulty based on various self desired goals. Often the thing you can do with 2-3 then turns into a group as more people, or friends of the friends, join and once your objective is achieved you may then have a full group to do bigger stuff for someone else. Likewise the dynamic is a bit different if solo or crafting as that is a "game" you can do and drop at a moments notice if asked ot join a group- or in a robust community choose what group you want to join- wether something frantic like filling out a full group in a camp somewhere or exciting by helping another with a dangerous goal that they cannot do alone.
Trazick said: One thing I really dislike about most MMO's over the last few years is the lack of uniqueness of gear. At end game, and even before, you'll notice countless players running around with the same exact gear, looking nearly identical (aside from dyes and transmogs and whatnot). Will loot, and specifically, armor/weapons be randomized in stats at drop? How about in appearance? Will end game have the same 10,000 players running around wearing the same gear, or will there be a diversity of gear? It's always a great experience when you walk by other players and take a moment to gaze at them and their gear because of its unique appeal. I think randomizing appearance and stats would be a great idea to keep a diverse presentation of players through the realms.
When I see an idea like this I really wonder if you have truly thought about how you would react if, after spending weeks of struggle and effort to obtain that one item you have desired so very much only to have the version you get have completely garbage stats? Suppose that item was a haste item in the best possible slot (whatever that might be) and while you see people wearing theirs with 40% haste, you only got 15% haste. For the exact same effort it was only the outcome of a random roll that meant your item is trash, and you'd be happy to see that happen? Would you go through all that effort a second time in hopes of getting something better? How many times would you try before giving up?
Nobody is going to accept a sub-standard item. Nobody. A competitive guild will, instead of them each going through once then likely moving on, do all they can to monopolize the content until they all get the best possible reward, spending far more time there before moving on.
When Gandalf became Gandalf the white, his armor automatically upgraded
And when Saruman violated the code of the wizard circle ,gandalf gained the right to break his staff.
What if the item rank is always in hands of alignment ranking?
So when you are an apprentice you can only master the apprentice robe and you need to work for your alignment in order to be able to wear higher tier items enchanter/wizard robe
The outcome/effort is no longer depending on a random roll,but how much effort you have put into your alignment(engage the world,lack or apathy of action should not be rewarded and all that)
If you go against your alignment you lose items related to it.(just like saruman)
Just like a corrupt Paladin can no longer wield the power of the ring of truth
Fluffy said:When Gandalf became Gandalf the white, his armor automatically upgraded
And when Saruman violated the code of the wizard circle ,gandalf gained the right to break his staff.What if the item rank is always in hands of alignment ranking?
So when you are an apprentice you can only master the apprentice robe and you need to work for your alignment in order to be able to wear higher tier items enchanter/wizard robe
The outcome/effort is no longer depending on a random roll,but how much effort you have put into your alignment(engage the world,lack or apathy of action should not be rewarded and all that)
If you go against your alignment you lose items related to it.(just like saruman)
Just like a corrupt Paladin can no longer wield the power of the ring of truth
And Frodo was gifted the powerful magical weapon Sting and the incredibly valuable Mithril chain, but had about as much skill in combat as a grapefruit.
Feyshtey said:Fluffy said:When Gandalf became Gandalf the white, his armor automatically upgraded
And when Saruman violated the code of the wizard circle ,gandalf gained the right to break his staff.What if the item rank is always in hands of alignment ranking?
So when you are an apprentice you can only master the apprentice robe and you need to work for your alignment in order to be able to wear higher tier items enchanter/wizard robe
The outcome/effort is no longer depending on a random roll,but how much effort you have put into your alignment(engage the world,lack or apathy of action should not be rewarded and all that)
If you go against your alignment you lose items related to it.(just like saruman)
Just like a corrupt Paladin can no longer wield the power of the ring of truthAnd Frodo was gifted the powerful magical weapon Sting and the incredibly valuable Mithril chain, but had about as much skill in combat as a grapefruit.
BAHAAHAHA. I'm a grapefruit too. I spit my Koolaid out reading that.
bet the favorite scene is where shelob stings him lol,after that he became as proficient as a grapefruit
maybe through the recognition,talent,technique that needs to be developed to earn the higher alignment rank item,you prove your skill required automatically
As with the intensity of the purifying power on the paladin sword, being related to the accumilated honor a paladin has gained(you really have to earn it)
Compared to grinding a boss for ages ,it requires more player involvement with the game world
It is also that the stats on the item are influenced by your rank and not some meaningless random roll.
So looking at Vandraad's example with same item dropping 40% haste 15% haste.The % you get depends on how devoted you are to your alignment and not a random roll.
Feeding into that line of thought that great effort should be rewarded with bonuses
I'm not wholly discounting the notion. It has a certain appeal, IF applied liberally to certain things. A paladin's epic weapon would be a perfectly logical place for it. However, if you start trying to apply this broadly the required tracking/scaling resources on the server side could grow rapidly out of hand. As could gameplay balance issues.
And ultimately the system would have more places in which it went wholly ignored than not. Otherwise a paladin would take a reputation hit every time he helped a necromancer kill a fairy. Two hits in fact. One for killing the fairy, and one for helping a necromancer at all.
Depending on the paladin's actions,the honor can go up or down.(personal,non combat related things like stealing or lying could cause honor to reduce too)
100 Honor - Paladin's epic weapon only has basic stats/divine power ,banish evil 4 radius
200 honor - Paladin's epic weapon has moderate stats - power radius banish evil 10
300 Honor - Paladin's epic weapon radiates with power,has good stats,banish evil 20
400 Honor - Paladin's epic weapon gains a pierce evil bonus,small boost to the stats,banish evil radius 30
500 Honor - Paladin's epic weapon gains the ability to purify the area of evil for x amount of time, radius 40
I don't know enough about tracking and scaling resources on the server side to know if it would grow out of hands rapidly.
But if a game is able to track health,mana,stamina,raids and all that .A similar but straight-forward light-version system like this might not be such a burden after all?
A cleric power of a cleric's item might be related to devotion,which is gained by things like releasing the light of ancient tomes, purifying shrines,helping the wounded and the weak.
While they'll lose devotion if they ignore defiled shrine,a call for help,or leave a town to be slaughtered at night by zombies.That sort of stuff.
For necromancers,their level of corruption actually works the other way: the more defiled they are,the better for them.
They'll gain corruption by raising corpses in a massacred town,defiling the items they find,shrines,gifting the weak with a new chance/life as a minion
While they'll lose corruption if they release a minion,before it falls in battle.Walk over purifying soil without using their corruptive powers,helping a pure cause.
A good necromancer might as well rebirth the character as a shaman.Maybe that would give the reborn shaman a small boost in insight of anatomy ,for example.
Wizard's power might be unlocked through knowledge and learning all from the far corners of Terminus
They'll gain arcane power by unlocking the secrets of the books they find,interacting with magical sites, and their item upgrades are related to rank within the mageguild
Apprentice rob -mage robe -wizard robe -archmage robe ,ofcourse there would be some sort of code to follow
If the code is violated they might lose a tier
Thus in-game involvenment matters like this
and I think it is important that players can downgrade too ; gives real weight to player action
My $0.02 regarding random stats on gear is: please don't do it. Let me tell you why by giving you an example from my previous experience in MMOs.
In The Elder Scrolls Online, your ability to take part and be useful in end-game content came down to min-maxing your character for your chosen role. I mostly played a DPS, a magic user. There were only about 2 or 3 item sets that were acceptable as a sorcerer DPS, one of which was crafted but the other two were dropped from instance bosses, two separate instances at that. In addition, different pieces of the sets dropped from different bosses in the instance; you might or might not get a set piece drop from a particular boss fight; if you got a set item drop, it could be from a number of different sets that might or might not be appropriate to your character; and the gear that did drop had a random weight (light, medium or heavy) and attribute (which boosted stats). Out of the three weights, only light armour really worked for a magic user, and out of the 8 possible traits, only 1 was really regarded as any good for a DPS. Let's do the math for a given set piece:
Drop chance (let's say 90%) * Set (6 sets per instance, so a 1 in 6 chance to get the one you want) * Piece (each boss would drop one of two possible pieces, e.g. helm or shoulder, so a 1 in 2 chance for a specific piece) * Weight (1 in 3 for light, medium or heavy) * Trait (1 in 8 for the sake of simplicity, but crappy traits had a MUCH higher drop chance than good ones).
This gives us 90% * 16.67% * 50% * 33.33% * 12.5% chance to get a specific piece of gear. That works out at 0.31% total. So if I'm not fumbling anything, the theoretical chance of getting a specific piece of a specific gear with the perfect traits was about 1 in 300 runs of the same instance. Mind you, this is just the aggregate probability for each set piece. In reality, because the calculations were repeated every single time, you would get duplicates of pieces you already had, and you could run the instance until the Universe grew cold and never get a specific piece to drop.
Because of other decisions with itemization, the random stats on a piece of gear - its weight and trait - were fundamental to determining your effectiveness, so in reality the only piece of gear you ever wanted was the perfect piece. Nothing else was good enough, you might as well fall back on your crafted set that was almost as good though not quite as good. So you ran the instance. Over and over and over again. You got frustrated because your mates would get the drop you were after, but the items were all bound on pickup, because of course they were. But you were having fun, the content was still relatively new and challenging... except after 100 runs you were facerolling your way through the instance, ignoring boss mechanics because your group's DPS was so high, nothing new or exciting in sight. And still you'd be missing that last piece of the set, and all your buddies would be complaining about RNG and you would burn out and give up on that instance because you honestly couldn't drag yourself through it yet another time.
Now, admittedly this is a worst-case scenario. It takes a lot of cumulative bad decisions with regard to drops chances, item stats, ability to trade loot, etc. to come to such a sorry state of affairs. In any case, I think it's clear that random stats can be a serious driver in player frustration and burnout. I know people don't need to always have best-in-slot gear. But every game will have a meta. That is unavoidable. And the meta is tied to BiS gear, whether you like it or not. A system where you might conceivably never get the item piece you want is a mistake IMHO. This is why in principle I'm strongly against randomized stats on gear. If all gear is tradeable, or if there is some system that ensures that you can get a specific piece of gear within a reasonable amount of time, I might be more amenable to it.
As for the point on item diversity, I think this goes way beyond an item having random stats. This has to do with whether there are gear sets with set bonuses or not, since balancing set bonuses can be very tricky and an OP gear set will quickly become a de facto standard among the player base; it has to do with whether the same piece of gear can drop in different styles, and whether players can modify an item's style; and more generally it has to do with how well VR are able to create a style of game play that requires different gear for different situations.
Stats relating to performance is another reason players will need to ask themselves 'which long-term goals should I chase in order to achieve my goals'
The potency of the purifying beam on the paladin sword being related to the honor code of the paladin is one example
Which means that behaviour not suited for a paladin (like stealing and lying) would have consequence for the stats on his equipment,
certain actions increasing the stats ,other actions reduce the stats.No matter what stage* of the game you are at.
This way,reputation can really either help or hinder your progress.
The game will challenge you in ways never seen before to earn those extra bonuses(stats).
This way,players truly have to contend with the world itself.
There is no endgame phase;the whole journey is part of the test.
And even if you have been to all places in Terminus;actions will always either punish or reward you.There no longer is best-in-slot gear as stats are guided by your actions.
Situation gear will be another thing to combat 'absolute best items'. Meta might be avoidable after all.
And it is not that you do never get the pieces you want: You immediately get a class related item but you have to prove yourself to wield the item at full potential.
You will have to keep proving yourself in order to keep the stats at max proficiency too
Diversity of item looks do not have to be related ,certain places could unlock new styles for you too
I like the general notion. But I also really love finding upgrades to my gear. Or creating them. I find that to be a very valuable aspect to the game. Again, I could see it being used to augment specific items like epics. But I'd reject it being used heavily as an integral system on even a large percentage of gear.
If gear acquisition is removed from the game and your actions are your only deciding factor in power gain, we're back to my argument that it's just playing The Sims. I dont want to play The Sims.
Fluffy said:Depending on the paladin's actions,the honor can go up or down.(personal,non combat related things like stealing or lying could cause honor to reduce too)
A cleric power of a cleric's item might be related to devotion,which is gained by things like releasing the light of ancient tomes, purifying shrines,helping the wounded and the weak.
While they'll lose devotion if they ignore defiled shrine,a call for help,or leave a town to be slaughtered at night by zombies.That sort of stuff.For necromancers,their level of corruption actually works the other way: the more defiled they are,the better for them.
They'll gain corruption by raising corpses in a massacred town,defiling the items they find,shrines,gifting the weak with a new chance/life as a minion
While they'll lose corruption if they release a minion,before it falls in battle.Walk over purifying soil without using their corruptive powers,helping a pure cause.
A good necromancer might as well rebirth the character as a shaman.Maybe that would give the reborn shaman a small boost in insight of anatomy ,for example.Wizard's power might be unlocked through knowledge and learning all from the far corners of Terminus
They'll gain arcane power by unlocking the secrets of the books they find,interacting with magical sites, and their item upgrades are related to rank within the mageguild
Apprentice rob -mage robe -wizard robe -archmage robe ,ofcourse there would be some sort of code to follow
If the code is violated they might lose a tierThus in-game involvenment matters like this
and I think it is important that players can downgrade too ; gives real weight to player action
A system like this would be borderline impossible to implement. Stealing may be easy enough (but that would mean every character can steal, not just rogues) to keep track of but how would the game tell if you are lying? But most importantly this is assuming this is a DnD-like Paladin, when they could be something VERY different. From just the blurb we have on the Pantheon Paladin it sounds much more like they are non-traditional, led by their own convictions and carrying out their own judgements.
Likewise, how would you know a cleric ignored a shrine or cry for help? As for necromancers and wizards, that's throwing them into a rigid set. Whose is to say that a necromancer is some twisted person who revels and draws strength from being more corrupt and defiled? Why can't he just be someone interested in the occult, enticed by forbidden magics. Someone who lost a loved one and is trying to master the magics of undeath to bring them back but otherwise wouldn't harm friendly people. Who is to say a wizard has to be a part of a mage's guild? There are plenty of wizards all across the spectrum.
Systems like this just type-cast people into playing a class in a specific way, taking away their freedom to be whomever they want to be.
Even with actions ruling over the stats on gear,you could still find or create upgrades:
example,a rogue might take on the challenges of a perilous poisoned zone
in a mission to discover a new poison to enhance his dagger with.
It is not the sims because ingame actions are the deciding factor in stat gain/loss.
A paladin gaining the sword on low power has a goal: to learn and unlock the potentials of the item on the journey.
To find items and places where he can upgrade or enhance his equipment
Through your actions and involvement with the world you unlock its powers
So there are defined goals still ,and the sims lack any defined goals so it is far from playing the sims.
Nobody said gear acquisition needs to be removed.A shift of focus is needed though
And Iksar,there could be many more sects and factions a wizard,cleric,necromancer could specialize with.
Just gave one example for each class.The game would know that a cleric purified a shrine just like the game would know a player killed a friendly target.(if that was possible)
Sure we need freedom to be whoever we are,and suppose there could be a pale necromancer with goofy friends from the other side.
In order to gain the freedom to be whomever we want to be,the game world needs to offer the content and the choice for us to be who we want to be,giving that purpose