Bazgrim said:If I remember correctly, VR said there will be a minimalistic tutorial just to go over the basics, but it will not be strictly step-by-step and it will be integrated into your home city. So don't worry about everything being like current EQ where everyone gets dumped in the same area you get handed OP gear right off the bat. It'll be the right balance between accessible and challenging. Here's some other threads you might find useful:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5232/starting-cities
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2013/mandatory-quot-tutorial-zones-quot
Correct, thank you Baz :)
The best newbie zones were the original low lvl starting areas like butcherblock mountians, or the commonlands, EQ's updated quest hubs and tutorial areas kill the immersion and exploration, giving a boxed in feeling. Being a social game getting together with others to explore and learn was a great way of starting out, all players should perhaps need is the basics found in a short guide, otherwise I always felt finding things out for yourself by doing was paft of the fun and adventure, it gave the game a feeling of depth as there always seemed to be more to discover, also there were pleanty of community sites if you really got stuck, the old map system of not having a map was also part of the fun, finding your own way and printing off maps from online sites to aid you in your travels was all part of the fun.
Also, please remember that Pantheon, while not intended to turn people away, isn't being made for the masses. It's not being made to cater to the 'everyday FPS/ MOBI' crowd. People who want a newbie island to teach them how to play the game are not the target demographic. If people are turned away because "it's too hard," then that's probably a good thing from the outset, because if it's like EQ to some degree... the game only gets harder, not easier.
Protecting people from CRs in early EQ made CR a jarring lesson that only happened AFTER you got into places like Blackburrow or Crushbone where retrieving your corpse from some places could be quite the terrorizing experience. You could fall in at super low levels into the pool in Blackburrow, and then what? That was one nightmare mother of a CR.... and if you hadn't already tried retrieving your corpse while silvermist wolves or rabid grizzlies or vengeful skellies or polar bear cubs were prowling about.... this sudden discovery of CR and how terrifying it really could be was quite the eye-opener. Sometimes literally to the point of tears.
Protecting people in the early levels, handing them groups, and uniting them with people you are going to rip away from them in a few levels as they splinter off to their own starting cities is catering to a demographic that doesn't fit the profile of the intended one.
There aren't going to be people playing this game and demanding guns, as the current/ modern MMO players seem wont to do. Those types will quit. It's too boring for them... the game won't be twitch enough, it won't be nonstop enough, it won't be PK enough even on the PVP server. The mindset intended for this game doesn't need a tutorial, because "figuring it out" and becoming part of the world is already part of the mindset. You'll find more people with kids in the game than kids. The mentality of "give it to me NOW!" is the modern kid world view because internet and games are so instantaneous. You aren't going to find these types staying in the game.
Someone whined earlier about not wanting to go to newbie areas because of people begging, etc. In early EQ, at least on the Xegony server, asking for gold was not only frowned upon, but people point blank told players, "Don't beg. You will get a bad reputation and then you'll end up quitting the server because no one will have anything to do with you. You earn your way in EQ or you won't get groups."
It was a form of social policing. The bums were ostracized, and begging didn't last beyond the first couple times it happened. Newbies began to police each other, and after a while these kinds of requests just didn't happen after the first time, because the clueless bum would get so many "stop begging, it's considered the height of rudeness in this game" that he'd never do it again. Set the precedent on your server, and ask people not to cater to anyone who asks for gold or buffs, and that will put a stop to it. Gifts from high level people were, on our server, exactly that. Spontaneous choice on the part of the high level person. Why? Because begging wasn't just frowned upon, it was grounds for social exile. That was the choice of our server collectively. Beggars either left the game or the server, and nobody missed them.
In a game where reputation matters, players can become self-policing if we so desire. If you don't like beggars and they won't quit, run them off. It'll be possible in this game, even on the non-PVP server.
Here is another thing i didnt see mentioned yet.
The newbie, Tutorial areas are very important not just at our EA access but later on when we start to need more and more players come back to, exist later etc...
Reason is? .5 hrs, 1 hr, 2 hrs, 5, hrs played game time (negitive reviews, the game is too hard, dont understand it)
Most of us, if not 5% will exist until (possible 10 years) content. There will be very few of us left playing like we did with EQ. We put so much into our characters, friendships, relationships, that we basically married EQ, but some of us got RL engaged in EQ. <-- no lie, Not me of coarse i just married EQ for 18 years lol.
The point being though, i find it very difficult to see how anyone wishes to start a new game after 5 years of hardcore movement to different expacs, explorations, guilds, your left feeling rather empty starting over, or starting for the first time.
Sure the game will keep you involved for awhile then you have to hope you meet up with other players of same level, and a newbie guild ready to do the content.
Not in EQ.........
You start over, you do the newbie guides, and your left with very little to do on your own, because you dont know what to do.
We started over, we evolve to either family guilds or raiding guilds.
Do you guys know what its like to come back to a game after even a few years of absence? the catchup to be level 100 when you left at 70?? the amount of pressure, the amount of constant farming, the amount of constant hand outs from guild members? the constant amount of AA's or levels one has to go through? It is Powerlvling at it's finest.
One person that knows how i did, would be Sancus, 70-100 within a month. and over 8000aa's I was a powerlvler way before, and a boxer hardcore. Otherwise i would have failed.
I liked to raid, otherwise i would be left in the dark like all the other players that did not stick around.
So how does someone new look at this from the newbie log standpoint? What would you want from the game after it is 1-2 even 10 years along.
Just saying there is so much about the newbie log that was made to promote the new player, not just a simple WASD movement tutorial. Interactions, guild placements, friendships made... newbies do not have that luxury after a year down the road.
So how important is the newbie areas?
Bazgrim said:If I remember correctly, VR said there will be a minimalistic tutorial just to go over the basics, but it will not be strictly step-by-step and it will be integrated into your home city. So don't worry about everything being like current EQ where everyone gets dumped in the same area you get handed OP gear right off the bat. It'll be the right balance between accessible and challenging. Here's some other threads you might find useful:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5232/starting-cities
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2013/mandatory-quot-tutorial-zones-quot
I hope this can be skipped.
Let me get this straight, some people are actually arguing FOR a all race / all class tutorial area (like the kobold mines in EQ now days?)
Wow thats just a horrible terrible idea, give me a starting city for each race. An open world city that is used by noobies, low levels and high levels. Then keep the cities relevant for the life of the game and for the love of the entire pantheon no quick travel mega hubs like Plane of knowledge...worse idea in EQ ever. Also please no neutral cities that all races can flock to, keep the factions important in all areas and aspects of the game
Sevens said:Let me get this straight, some people are actually arguing FOR a all race / all class tutorial area (like the kobold mines in EQ now days?)
Wow thats just a horrible terrible idea, give me a starting city for each race. An open world city that is used by noobies, low levels and high levels. Then keep the cities relevant for the life of the game and for the love of the entire pantheon no quick travel mega hubs like Plane of knowledge...worse idea in EQ ever. Also please no neutral cities that all races can flock to, keep the factions important in all areas and aspects of the game
All race starting city is perfectly done in EQ. Netural "cash in" areas is a different topic, not newbie related. It wasnt until later on did they add in the kobold mines, which is ok, for some years later... but we really should keep 1 concept alive and not mix in too many things. A skippable starting area is ok, for some... not for the lore minded and first day players.
Mostly this topic is mixed as we dont have many people rehashing EQ from 1998/1999 to 2000, i see many still refer to EQ with kobold mines. Which if i am not mistaken was introduced 2006?ish or 2008?
All of it is revelant to keeping the lore. I would more like a wiki page then a huge game changer like adding in Kobold mines to be honest.
HemlockReaper said:Bazgrim said:If I remember correctly, VR said there will be a minimalistic tutorial just to go over the basics, but it will not be strictly step-by-step and it will be integrated into your home city. So don't worry about everything being like current EQ where everyone gets dumped in the same area you get handed OP gear right off the bat. It'll be the right balance between accessible and challenging. Here's some other threads you might find useful:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5232/starting-cities
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2013/mandatory-quot-tutorial-zones-quot
I hope this can be skipped.
I don't remember explicitly hearing that it will be possible to skip it, but I gotta think that it's just kinda assumed. It's so standard to just have a checkbox to turn off tips. Everyone makes alts by the time they already know the basics of the game and don't want to be bothered with tips popping up everywhere all over again. Even if they don't have it implemented right away, that's definitely something I would strongly suggest in Alpha/Beta.
>Wow thats just a horrible terrible idea, give me a starting city for each race. An open world city that is used by noobies, low levels and high levels. Then keep the cities relevant for the life of the game and for the love of the entire pantheon no quick travel mega hubs like Plane of knowledge...worse idea in EQ ever. <
Repeat a few times. This is not EQ. This is not EQ. This is not EQ. Many of the suggestions and opinions here have nothing to do with EQ, are not intended to operate the way superficially comparable things operated in EQ, and go on the belief that this is 2019 not 1999 and we are better off learning from almost two decades of experimentation and innovation in dozens of other MMOs. Thank you, that is a lot better.
Now please explain why there is an inconsistancy between having a polished intorductory area teeming with people of all races and classes for their first few levels and then having them go to their racial cities that may, or may not, operate precisely as you described.
I am not saying you are wrong - if each racial starting area can be made just as polished and have just as compelling a storyline as a single tutorial "island" you may even be right. What I don't get is the level of ...I think scorn is a fair word ...... for the idea of a 1-2 level starter "island"that is superimposed over the starting cities rather than replacing them. Keeping in mind that if EQ had one of these and did it wrong, the idea in Pantheon if the team goes that way is to do it *right*.
dorotea said:Now please explain why there is an inconsistancy between having a polished intorductory area teeming with people of all races and classes for their first few levels and then having them go to their racial cities that may, or may not, operate precisely as you described.
Good point, even if you had it say level 1-2 or never leaving level 1, but your learning about your class and the UI, Hotbars etc.. and what is around you.
We have two types of people 1 that loves alts, and 2 players that dont. Once completed the starting areas they move on to never really return unless they have to.
dorotea said:>Wow thats just a horrible terrible idea, give me a starting city for each race. An open world city that is used by noobies, low levels and high levels. Then keep the cities relevant for the life of the game and for the love of the entire pantheon no quick travel mega hubs like Plane of knowledge...worse idea in EQ ever. <
Repeat a few times. This is not EQ. This is not EQ. This is not EQ. Many of the suggestions and opinions here have nothing to do with EQ, are not intended to operate the way superficially comparable things operated in EQ, and go on the belief that this is 2019 not 1999 and we are better off learning from almost two decades of experimentation and innovation in dozens of other MMOs. Thank you, that is a lot better.
Now please explain why there is an inconsistancy between having a polished intorductory area teeming with people of all races and classes for their first few levels and then having them go to their racial cities that may, or may not, operate precisely as you described.
I am not saying you are wrong - if each racial starting area can be made just as polished and have just as compelling a storyline as a single tutorial "island" you may even be right. What I don't get is the level of ...I think scorn is a fair word ...... for the idea of a 1-2 level starter "island"that is superimposed over the starting cities rather than replacing them. Keeping in mind that if EQ had one of these and did it wrong, the idea in Pantheon if the team goes that way is to do it *right*.
They have plainly stated that EQ original players are their primary target demographic. We are their demographic specifically because we do NOT like modern MMOs and have not found a home there... they're not trying to take players that are happy with modern MMO offerings away from them. They are working to create, hopefully, a new home for those of us who haven't found one.
Therefore, the demand that we set aside our affection for EQ and our call to create a similar feel will, I guarantee you, fall on deaf (if not openly hostile) ears. If they do not want to hear about EQ, they should not target those who played and love it.
The scorn for a newbie area is, plain and simply, we have tried it and we do NOT see it as an upgrade or update, as you apparently do. Many reasons for this have been given, mostly in long posts that perhaps you didn't feel any interest in reading. That's okay, but the question HAS been addressed and answered. The comparison to EQ is here to stay and it was not the players who invited that comparison.
If that comparison is upsetting, you may find you fit a different game's demographic better. That's not in any way disparaging. I don't like asparagus, but it's okay if you do. You maybe don't want EQ (or a similar feel) back, but we do. Brussel sprouts are ick, but it's okay if you eat them or ask that they be served in the café... But if the café owner has promised a meat and potatoes menu, don't get frustrated when people want mashed potatoes, instead and aren't supportive of your stinky Brussel sprouts. ;)
Amris said:Brussel sprouts are ick, but it's okay if you eat them or ask that they be served in the café... But if the café owner has promised a meat and potatoes menu, don't get frustrated when people want mashed potatoes, instead and aren't supportive of your stinky Brussel sprouts. ;)
Come on... mashed potatoes are watered down, convenient, and "easycore". I demand hard core, half-baked potatoes at most. Anything cooked more is effectively handholding.
EQ players are *part* of the target demographic - they have said over and over that the demographic is people that like old-style games and they hope that many younger people that never played EQ (and never will because it is so primitive by today's standards) will decide that they also like social. slower. group-centered games as we do.
Whether to have a starter "island" is more a resource and marketing issue than a type of game issue. The game will be just as EQ-like in terms of grouping, socializing, speed of advancement, complexity of combat, need for different roles in a group , etc etc etc whether we start in Goblin City at level 1 or after a tutorial at level 2.
The team has said over and over that while the FEEL will clearly be like EQ Pantheon will NOT be EQ updated it will be its own game and will differ in many ways. Not differ in overall objective, differ in how it handles many aspects of the game.
I think that reasonable people can differ on the pros and cons of a starter tutorial, on the types of ruleset servers we should have, on whether to have an auction house, on whether to have flying transportation, on whether to have magical means of rapid transportation on ..... Just look at the forums and you will see scores of issues where people that are committed to Pantheon and want this type of game have varying and strongly held opinions. I suggest we not suggest that anyone that doesn't agree with our own opinion on any one or two issues might be better off with a different game. There aren't enough of us for schisms amd internecine warfare although differences of opinion on specific issues are both inevitable and desirable.
dorotea said:I think that reasonable people can differ on the pros and cons of a starter tutorial, on the types of ruleset servers we should have, on whether to have an auction house, on whether to have flying transportation, on whether to have magical means of rapid transportation on ..... Just look at the forums and you will see scores of issues where people that are committed to Pantheon and want this type of game have varying and strongly held opinions. I suggest we not suggest that anyone that doesn't agree with our own opinion on any one or two issues might be better off with a different game. There aren't enough of us for schisms amd internecine warfare although differences of opinion on specific issues are both inevitable and desirable.
Do you think reasonable people can discuss those things without comments like, "This is not Age of Conan. Repeat, this is not Age of Conan," when someone uses another game as the basis of their likes or dislikes?
It's a bit offensive, don't you think?
They invited EQ players here. If that offends you so deeply that people will discuss it in comparison to this game, then I'm not sure exactly how there can be reasonable discussions. Courtesy needs to go both ways, and what, "This isn't EQ, and this is 2019" indirectly says is, "shut up about EQ, it's a stupid old game." Then you turn around and say that EQ players and those who like OLD STYLE GAMES are the demographic.
I'm delighted that you're here, and I've read many of your posts. You seem immensely intelligent. However, it IS rude to say, "This is not EQ. Repeat several times." I can see that you are frustrated that people are replying to comments by some people about PoP. I see that you feel like EQ is outdated and you want the things in the game that you personally like.
Others want the same thing in the other direction. It would be good to leave them to their expression, if you want others to be willing to listen courteously to your opinions they don't agree with, don't you think? I was very taken aback by the rudeness of, "Repeat several times, this is not EQ," because it seems out if character for you. Most of the time, you seem very considerate, so I was surprised.
Amris said:dorotea said:>Wow thats just a horrible terrible idea, give me a starting city for each race. An open world city that is used by noobies, low levels and high levels. Then keep the cities relevant for the life of the game and for the love of the entire pantheon no quick travel mega hubs like Plane of knowledge...worse idea in EQ ever. <
Repeat a few times. This is not EQ. This is not EQ. This is not EQ. Many of the suggestions and opinions here have nothing to do with EQ, are not intended to operate the way superficially comparable things operated in EQ, and go on the belief that this is 2019 not 1999 and we are better off learning from almost two decades of experimentation and innovation in dozens of other MMOs. Thank you, that is a lot better.
Now please explain why there is an inconsistancy between having a polished intorductory area teeming with people of all races and classes for their first few levels and then having them go to their racial cities that may, or may not, operate precisely as you described.
I am not saying you are wrong - if each racial starting area can be made just as polished and have just as compelling a storyline as a single tutorial "island" you may even be right. What I don't get is the level of ...I think scorn is a fair word ...... for the idea of a 1-2 level starter "island"that is superimposed over the starting cities rather than replacing them. Keeping in mind that if EQ had one of these and did it wrong, the idea in Pantheon if the team goes that way is to do it *right*.
They have plainly stated that EQ original players are their primary target demographic. We are their demographic specifically because we do NOT like modern MMOs and have not found a home there... they're not trying to take players that are happy with modern MMO offerings away from them. They are working to create, hopefully, a new home for those of us who haven't found one.
Therefore, the demand that we set aside our affection for EQ and our call to create a similar feel will, I guarantee you, fall on deaf (if not openly hostile) ears. If they do not want to hear about EQ, they should not target those who played and love it.
The scorn for a newbie area is, plain and simply, we have tried it and we do NOT see it as an upgrade or update, as you apparently do. Many reasons for this have been given, mostly in long posts that perhaps you didn't feel any interest in reading. That's okay, but the question HAS been addressed and answered. The comparison to EQ is here to stay and it was not the players who invited that comparison.
If that comparison is upsetting, you may find you fit a different game's demographic better. That's not in any way disparaging. I don't like asparagus, but it's okay if you do. You maybe don't want EQ (or a similar feel) back, but we do. Brussel sprouts are ick, but it's okay if you eat them or ask that they be served in the café... But if the café owner has promised a meat and potatoes menu, don't get frustrated when people want mashed potatoes, instead and aren't supportive of your stinky Brussel sprouts. ;)
No, not EQ specifically but that era of gamers, EQ, Vanilla WoW, VG, Ashrons Call, FF etc. Our game, Pantheon, is targeted at that era of gamers who liked the old school mechanics, socialisation, cooperation etc. but we will open the doors to anyone who finds that type of gaming appealing.
We really need to lose this mentality that this is for EQ or some kind of EQ remaster, because it really isn't. ;)
P.S. Brussel sprouts are good with lemon juice, mash potatoes and other veggies, plus they are very healthy and full of nutrition! Don;t be hatin on Brussel sprouts now lol :)
dorotea said:Whether to have a starter "island" is more a resource and marketing issue than a type of game issue. The game will be just as EQ-like in terms of grouping, socializing, speed of advancement, complexity of combat, need for different roles in a group , etc etc etc whether we start in Goblin City at level 1 or after a tutorial at level 2.
I don't think that most of us EQ players or otherwise are saying there shouldn't be a tutorial/starting zone because EQ didn't have one specifically, but because we don't see it as a positive idea over starting out in your respective cities and immediately being a part of the world. It would be more jarring than anything to start for a level or two in a tutorial with all the other newbies (which would be unuseable at launch due to overcrowding) then being funneled away from all of that into your respective cities. From what I can tell of this game, it isn't going to be some on-rails storyline leading to you being the ultimate hero at max level so much as it is going to be a choose your own adventure and explore the world/find your own path/meaning.
Maybe they will have a separate tutorial .exe that you can run and it will go over all the basics if you want, as EQ did. It would be a pretty cool thing to come out shortly before release even.
Or perhaps all the tutorial and "how-to" information will be a part of the proposed Pantheon App so you can learn all this stuff on your phone.
Dorotea, awesome posts.
Kilsin is right, so I wil add- White asparagus with Columbia 1905 dressing ( from St Aaugustine FL) can change anyones mind about Apasaragus
and regarding brussel sprouts: Sliced in half, broiled untill edges are crispy, balsamic vinegar drizzle and topped with chopped bacon and parmesan flakes- You'll never eat brussel sprouts any other way again.
But ot the point- seeing as how "Glam" armor could go the way of a personal toggle, might not this be also applied to newbie tutorials?
You could toggle a tutorial on and off while in the real world.
Yes, there may be a number of players suddenly stopping or staring at the wall for a bit,- OR maybe a perception queue when you first log in- someone "psst''s to the newbie to enter a - and this would be the ONLY instance- personal arena where WASD, Jump, spells armor-on armor-off, " now, kill that rat!" etc, is all taught.
Peace! Let us all agree that EQ players are a large and desired part of the community here - quite likely a substantial majority. Let us all agree that attacks on each other are counterproductive. Let us all agree that each of us will see things we like in Pantheon and each of us will see things we do not like but we don't need the team to agree with us on every point to remain committed to the game.
Noob zones are important, they should be outside of your races starting city though.
Nanoushka said: From what I understood each race will have their own starting area, or did I overlook something? I'd assume that that's where the tutorial starts. I do hope so anyway, I love starting out as a certain race and exploring their city and surroundings. For me personally it adds a lot to the flavor and the feel of the character I'm playing. Having one starting area for everyone feels odd and disconnected to me, characters would lack identity for me. I like the sense of belonging somewhere and then starting on this great adventure, instead of spawning somewhere seemingly rather random.
Correct :)
We will not have a nooby starting area, the race of your character will determine the location that you start and within the area will be a brief but informative tutorial explaining the basics, then it is up to you and your fellow community members to go out and explore, learn and enjoy the adventure and challenges that await.
Kilsin said:Nanoushka said: From what I understood each race will have their own starting area, or did I overlook something? I'd assume that that's where the tutorial starts. I do hope so anyway, I love starting out as a certain race and exploring their city and surroundings. For me personally it adds a lot to the flavor and the feel of the character I'm playing. Having one starting area for everyone feels odd and disconnected to me, characters would lack identity for me. I like the sense of belonging somewhere and then starting on this great adventure, instead of spawning somewhere seemingly rather random.Correct :)
We will not have a nooby starting area, the race of your character will determine the location that you start and within the area will be a brief but informative tutorial explaining the basics, then it is up to you and your fellow community members to go out and explore, learn and enjoy the adventure and challenges that await.
Thank you Kilsin, I was starting to feel slightly confused haha, but great that it'll be as I remembered it being said :).
For some reason lately I'm feeling like a six year old with her birthday coming up whenever I read your comments. It's really being made and it's coming closer every day, squee!
Nanoushka said:Thank you Kilsin, I was starting to feel slightly confused haha, but great that it'll be as I remembered it being said :).
For some reason lately I'm feeling like a six year old with her birthday coming up whenever I read your comments. It's really being made and it's coming closer every day, squee!
You're very welcome, I can't wait either, it will be nice to have so many people to test with! :D