If I remember correctly, VR said there will be a minimalistic tutorial just to go over the basics, but it will not be strictly step-by-step and it will be integrated into your home city. So don't worry about everything being like current EQ where everyone gets dumped in the same area you get handed OP gear right off the bat. It'll be the right balance between accessible and challenging. Here's some other threads you might find useful:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5232/starting-cities
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2013/mandatory-quot-tutorial-zones-quot
It is very important if not the most important step to ones life in MMO games the "Starting City" It would be nice if it kept up with the times, and developed into the upper teirs and was unlocked in the starting city so when lets say you reached level 50 a new section was revealed, opening up to allow you to trade, buy, use and develop from there.
We have been spoiled so much so that to save time we end up getting a traders city close to the enviroment we play in. I think it should be removed, and starting cities be returned to the way it was started.
The arguement:
The starting city, posts an initial importance in the world, when you first enter. It gives you a sense of security and knowing you have a place to return to. Every i mean everyone returns to the starting city more then once in thier career. It is not always being used, and utilized enough. Meaning that players sometimes will return to the starting birthplace just to feel that comfort of returning to something that once was.
Well the question i have is. Why do we need to evolve past that and push to new locations? why can we not accept trade, skills from our starting cities. If we are forced to evolve past that, ok fine down the road, but you still are required to return to your starting city for something, if not multiple reasons over the lifetime of the character.
The basics:
The starting city, newbie Log we used to call it in EQ back around the time of 1999, was a place in Nek Forest we once called a home. It was the most important spot in the dark elves time. We all remember it to this day. This is why i say, even if it is just to remember the old times, it is a good thing to keep the players returning instead of camping out at the new trader cities. Even if this MMO doesnt have it, to return to the roots of once was the best game on the planet, it still is important.
Mass trading city:
We know that pop was important part of EQ, it brought all players to one location. Not only did it allow people to AFK in a spot for days on end it also brought quests, trading and that to the game. I cant say it enough how important this was to the game. However you still needed to return home once in awhile to progress, to a different level.
The only thing i think is best suited to keep balance in the game with the newbie areas, is to allow people to return home for the most critical things, and the larger cities provide new trade, and progression. I dont agree everything should be placed in one area.
This is why class or race specific spells, cantrips etc.. be done at the starting - newbie areas.
I think I'm in direct disagreement with about half the posters on the thread, lol.
EQ really did do starting cities right. It was important to have starting cities where you were just situated well enough that drive-bys by high levels were rare and special. At the same time, they were possible.
Some things I dislike about the "newbie starting area" islands or other 'concentrated' areas for newbies to start out in are...
1. Too often newbie areas draw people together, only to yank them apart again as soon as they finish the area. This will be that much worse with the "trial account" thing, if it doesn't even have /tell or /msg or /whisper ability. Now not only do you go your separate ways at the end of the newbie area, but you can't even keep in touch. In a social game, my vote is "no, just no!"
2. Exclusion from the ability of high level players to run through and toss a buff or two. I don't like this on many levels. To perhaps display this a bit, I'll state that I remember my very first high level buffs. I was on my shaman in Everfrost (EQ original, pre-kunark). She stopped and grouped with me and gave me a buff that lit up my screen like Christmas on steroids. I mean, she sparkled! Not only that, but wow, she was wearing MATCHING armor, and it was gorgeous! I had to know more about her, and that was when I rolled my cleric and that was the end of me as a shaman, and it was GREAT! This moment was literally a defining moment. It gave me something to BE. Not just to aim for, but something to become, something to make of myself. To be able to stop and give someone the feeling she gave me?? That was... wow. Just wow. Mind-boggling awesome.
3. It's misleading, quite frankly. Maybe in the place where you start out, there aren't all that many groups to be had (particularly in evil areas, such as Swamp of No Hope, or Field of Bone). You get through the newbie area grouping 90% of the time, yay! Now suddenly you have to go in search of a group. What the heck?! I was lied to! Better people understand at the start what it will be like--for better or worse. If you're in a newbie area with low group-ability, maybe you want to move, leave, or start a less difficult race. You don't know until you've already put in the time in the "newbie area" and you know what you're missing and you want THAT back instead of [whatever your actual starting area is like].
Anyway, I think there are more but I don't remember at the moment. :p
As far as PoP and then the Nexus? Worst, absolute worst thing that ever happened to EQ on every level, with only Luclin a close second. A place for people to AFK and lag the server... yep. A place for people to get their corpses without getting their corpses, yep. A place for people to hawk their wares without having to travel somewhere to do it, yep. A place for people to travel without needing to even see another player, yep. A way for players to ignore each other totally, while standing side-by-side, yep. A place for people to sell stuff without bothering to ever speak to another player, yep. A way for people to destroy every single faction and still be able to bank and purchase, yep.
All the conveniences that were so "wonderful" were ruinous. They were terrible for the game, and that doesn't even begin to discuss on the relative "merits" of destroying guilds en masse with keyed zones.
No PoP, no Nexus, no AH, please. Let the players on each server determine their relative "auction zone" and don't create one that destroys player interaction by bringing people together in such a way that actually tears them apart. No AFK selling, no NPCs or fence posts that do the work that players should be interacting with each other to get done, please.
No "starting zone" that holds your hand but then splits you off from the friends you just made. No "everyone starts out in the same area" stuff where you have no identy outside of the color of your skin or the width of your body or your height. Give us species identity (I shy away from the word race when I speak of this particular issue for clear reasons), and then let us decide to hold onto it or to decry it on our own recognizance.
This is an MMO, not a single player game. Each species should have its own challenges, its own cultural experiences from the very beginning. Like with like until the player makes the choice to embrace or embark.
Amris said:
All the conveniences that were so "wonderful" were ruinous. They were terrible for the game, and that doesn't even begin to discuss on the relative "merits" of destroying guilds en masse with keyed zones.
This is an MMO, not a single player game.
Edited down the quote to just include the parts that make me want to fist bump you and exclaim, "This is what I've been saying in like almost all my posts!!" Couldn't agree more.
The ONLY problem I had/have with EQ newbie cities was (and I've said this before) when new expansions came out, and with them new starting areas, and with the new starting areas new/better quests and new/better drops, I wish the old starting cities had their loot tables edited to be on par with the new starting zones; thus keeping the old starting zones relevant, and preventing them from turning into ghost towns.
After Amris' post I don't think much more can be added, that was a fantastic post and was completely on point. You put into words my exact thoughts on this whole conundrum.
/clap.
Reafwalk has a great point as well. That was the only downfall of the EQ starting cities, they never got spruced up, it was like they were stuck in a timelock.
If anything could be fixed that would be the one point of contention personally. That further expansion outwards, necessitates building on top of the existing framework of starting areas.
Reafwalk said:Amris said:
All the conveniences that were so "wonderful" were ruinous. They were terrible for the game, and that doesn't even begin to discuss on the relative "merits" of destroying guilds en masse with keyed zones.
This is an MMO, not a single player game.
Edited down the quote to just include the parts that make me want to fist bump you and exclaim, "This is what I've been saying in like almost all my posts!!" Couldn't agree more.
The ONLY problem I had/have with EQ newbie cities was (and I've said this before) when new expansions came out, and with them new starting areas, and with the new starting areas new/better quests and new/better drops, I wish the old starting cities had their loot tables edited to be on par with the new starting zones; thus keeping the old starting zones relevant, and preventing them from turning into ghost towns.
These are important lessons learned and I could not agree any more than the 100 percent that I do.
In addition, I believe that people should be dropped into thier starting city with little more fanfare than just the clunk of them hitting the ground and just a hint as to what direction to take.
Gandolf is knocking on your door. Welcome to the world young'un; BTW your compass is broken. Let the discovery begin !
I see what a lot of people are saying. I definitely appreciated the Faydark as well. In fact, I think that is the way it should be, but how do we keep starting cities relevant as the game ages? The starting cities in eq1 were not the thing that made them great, the quests were not riveting and the reason to return did not last very long. However, the healthy amount of people there is what kept it bustling. So, How can you get a good experience where you can begin a new game and get a good taste of it, while beginning in separate starting cities, and have them remain healthy and populated places?
I think I'd even be to the point of forgoing a beginning area (NOT a tutorial) if what Sunmistress' point about building on top of existing framework could be done.
But how?
Several ways to keep the starting cities relevant
This is where new players always start. (never change that)
Spells and ability's that race can use are that are bought are bought there.
Spells that relate to that area are bought there (Thronefast Ports should never be sold anyplace besides Thronefast)
When an expansion comes out add a quest or two that lead back to the home cities, just becouse Bob the Baker has the Muffin quest doesent mean he can also have 'learned" another does it?
I don't think finding ways to keep them relevant is hard. The develeopers just need to want to.
I would like to expand on "Keep the citys relevant" and say keep all the zones relevant.
For the citys: have npc's there that you need to kill. In EQ1 there was that guard in Freeport that needed to be killed for some quest. Killing him would give you a faction hit and as a low level playe suddenly you would see all these higher level players dash for the zone (to avoid the faction hit) and have no clue. There was also this npc in Neriak. To get to it you had to invis your way through if you had the wrong faction. It was really good fun. Keeping adding stuff like this will keep the citys interesting.
For other places, if a part of a zone became less used, perhaps the wicked goblins from the next zone made a tunnel through and your normally peacefull strawberry field became deadly.
I always thought it was sad when old zones became empty and I would love instead of only expanding out there would be expanding up or down in the original zones, keeping the playes close. It would also keep the citys as close as before if you went up or down, keeping them important.
-sorte.
Keeping the Newbie areas 'fresh' is dependent upon two things, in my opinion:
1. The area must be reasonably competitive to other areas. In P1999, the only area that's reasonable right now to exp in is the Freeport area. This is because everyone goes there, and because of that, people miss out on their own areas. There is an easy faction quest there, and this is that server's player-elect auction area. What makes this the premier auction area is that it has places for both 'goods' and 'evils' to bank and sell. If the Devs take the time to make even so much as small outposts for both sides of the coin to use, then they can allow players to gather nearer their own starting areas or in between starting areas. That helps keep them competitive, because experienced players won't bail en mass in order to reach the "only" auction area.
2. The area must have a draw for higher level characters. Others have suggested spells and the like, but I prefer something a bit like Everfrost (except easier for evils to bank and sell as above). Right off of Everfrost (barbarian area) is Permafrost. Permafrost is home to Lady Vox, a massive dragon who was a high end raiding target. It was also a place for lower mid-level players to group (19+) and it went all the way up to lvl 35, then up to 54-ish. An improved loot table there with each expansion would keep it relevant, which would keep high level people going back.
Changing the loot tables of old "core" fights so that it is competitive with current targets will keep people interested. It should become equal to current fights.
Let's say for example that a dragon drops the top gear in the game. Then an expansion comes out and the new "top bosses" drop gear that is 1.5x as good as the old gear. The previous "top boss" should be nerfed down, OR the loot table should be increased. Leaving old bosses to drop the same loot, but still be equally difficult makes them obsolete. THAT is the core issue. Newbie areas should not be made BETTER. The only draw to new newbie areas added, EVER, should only be a new species starting out there. If you want to start a chickenman, you start at The Coop. The Coop has no better loot or quests than does Syronai's Rest, the ONLY thing there is chickenpeople. You can't go there for The Uber Newbie Sword of Allslaying.
The new species should have its own area and nothing more. Expansions should not increase anything for newbies. Newbies should start out as newbies in every newbie area of the game, balanced to each other with regards to areas that draw higher level players, quests, and dangers. The fact that Everfrost had wandering vengeful skellies was great--but something similar should have been everywhere. This unbalanced the area, along with how easy it was to get lost and run into high level (to newbies) goblins. It wouldn't be unbalancing if ALL newbie areas had similar dangers, but they didn't.
So the balancing of newbie areas and the draw of a connected high level raid are both central factors in "keeping newbie areas relevant". Choosing actively not to make "new" areas better, but only equal as expansions come out, will also keep them relevant. Changing boss fights in the connected zones to keep them relevant to high level characters will do the same. Not all boss fights should be altered upon release of new content, but those fights put adjacent to newbie areas SHOULD BE.
Many high levels won't bother to go back to get their spells, they send some poor newbie sot by paying them. Which is lovely for that newbie sot, but it doesn't produce interaction between newbies and high levels in the starting zone. Therefor, an actual active draw should be maintained. It should be standard at each expansion to alter the "higher end encounter" nearby each newbie area. What makes newbie areas relevant or irrelevant is the preponderance of higher level characters in the area. Crowds draw crowds, and newbies seeing high levels gives them drive and excitement to "become that".
The racial newbie areas are imho very important. Previous comments I think, show this. Having just started on the p1999 server I have come to appreciate the fact that not only (exclusively) newbies are present in the zone at any one time. It made me remember my first impressions over 10 years ago on my first EQ character when as a lowly level 1 enchanter I stood next to a level 30 something enchanter and was completely in awe of the buffs he gave me and the equipment he was wearing.
Fly-by buffs are a "thing"! It doesnt happen on a newbie isle or tutorial area. It also fosters relationships, increases guild memberships and gives a feeling of belonging to a community.
The second thing that I found important concerns crafting and spell components. The fact that things like bone chips, snake eggs and other bits and bobs drop from those newbie mobs and are still relevent (necessary for/to) higher level characters for pets/crafting etc. is a brilliant concept. Once again this increases the possibilty of forming relationships between newbies and older players and also gives the new players a chance to earn some cash if they take the initiative to collect and sell said items to other characters. In fact, I would plead for many high level crafting recipes to always have some component that is only available from mobs in a newbie zone.
Anyway, thats my 2cp.
Newbie areas are not 'important', they are critical!
These areas, and their surrounding zones are the pillars upon which all the rest of the game's experiences are built. They need to be bustling areas: full of NPCs, players of all levels, markets and places to go and see! A full 'newbie island' type area is both counter-productive and unneccssary. If you must have a 'lead-in' structure for those completely new to MMOs, then have it integrated into the character creation (and hence somewhat skippable for those who understand WASD).
[E.g.] Lead-in Character Creation example 1:
Your character is built via Race/Class choices with a ship as a background. Your starting city is chosen (if multiples available) and you choose a name .... you start by spawning onto the deck of a ship (perhaps with other newbies too).
While the ships sails toward the dock, you get to learn WASD, your inventory etc... then the ship docks.
[E.g.] Lead-in Character Creation example 2:
Your character is built via Race/Class choices with a dormitory/barracks as a background. Your starting city is chosen (if multiples available) and you choose a name .... you start by spawning into a dormitory/barracks of a building (perhaps with other newbies too).
Note in your backpack says 'congrats on graduating. Now go find the quartermaster for basic gear and say farewell to your trainer/mentor.' Thats it. Button pops offering 'help with WASD' etc.
All starting cities (and surrounding zones) need to have reasons for mid-high level characters to pass through/visit.
STARTER CITIES
1. (local) Banking
2. (local) produce only available from that town
3. Crafting trainers /suppliers /warehouses
4. (local) crafting recipes only available from that town
5. NPC's of interest to Mid-High level characters (faction/quest)
6. (local) Long-ish Buffs from shrine/temples/etc [NPC cast for item sacrifice]
7. Markets /marketplaces
8. Ship/other Transit hubs
9. Guild admin areas
SURROUNDING ZONES
1. Mid-High level dungeon(s) access
2. (local) Harvestable node only available here
3. low level drops needed for higher-spell reagents
4. Crossroads for main travel routes
5. Specialist NPCs (eg Black-market vendor)
6. Unique features (King Pike pond, or Area that radiates)
7. High(er) incidence of GM(-led) events
Hopefully, these kind of things will keep the starter cities/zones bustling. This also means new races should be integrated into existing ciities, where possible, or attached to their starter zones where not. The more players are falling over themselves and others in the early levels, the more the 'world' seems alive. New content should include some linking in to older startiong zones where at all possible.
I am in the minority, as usual. Then again, if we all agreed the team wouldn't get the benefit of well thought out opinions on both sides of some of these issues. Few things encourage thoughtful analysis better than contrary opinions.
I agree racial or class or other starting areas are critically important. In a game with slow leveling where you spend a lot of time there, even more so. In a game where the focus is on immersion and socialization not just phat lewt, even more so.
BUT it isn't that easy to create multiple starting areas and make them all compelling enough to hook in new players and persuade them that this is the right game. It isn't easy to make them all bustling when players will pick different classes and different races and some will be a lot less popular than others. It isn't easy to make the difficulty and rewards of each starting area more or less comparable so that people aren't motivated to use one rather than others because it is easier (or harder) or more (or less) rewarding.
The advantage of a single starting area - call it a starter island for simplicity - is huge. You can polish it, and then polish the polish, and make the NPCs, dwellings, terrain, quests, balance etc just as good as possible a lot more easily than if you had to do the same thing 5 or 10 times. You can make 10 NPCs as visually unique and appealing as the engine allows a lot more efficiently than if you had to do 100 NPCs. You can have complete voice acting for every starter island NPC and starter island quest even if you don't have that for the real game. First impressions are critically important. Granted there is a downside to having the second area a step below the starting area but IMO there is a *bigger* downside to not showing your best to players testing the game and deciding whether to pay for it.
I played Age of Conan (no shock I haven't missed too many MMOs over the years). The game had a lot of plusses and a lot of minuses. The absolute biggest plus was the starter island that was head and shoulders better than any other part of the game, at least as of release. Yes people complained that the rest of the game wasn't as good and some left in dissappointment, but many who had been hooked had time to see the positives and stuck around. Pantheon will have a big plus in the community - we hope. People that make friends and find good guilds will often stay even if the real starter areas don't have the polish of the starter island. We just need to keep them long enough to make those friends.
More than a few of us played EQ2. The starter islands generated so much nostalgia they brought them back after eliminating them. Even named one of the few remaining servers after them.
So yes let's make the racial cities as good as time and resources permit but let's have an overlay of an EQ2 or Conan starter island where we all go for the first level or two. As polished and well balanced as the team can possibly make it. Our face to the world.
dorotea said:BUT it isn't that easy to create multiple starting areas and make them all compelling enough to hook in new players and persuade them that this is the right game. It isn't easy to make them all bustling when players will pick different classes and different races and some will be a lot less popular than others. It isn't easy to make the difficulty and rewards of each starting area more or less comparable so that people aren't motivated to use one rather than others because it is easier (or harder) or more (or less) rewarding.
The advantage of a single starting area - call it a starter island for simplicity - is huge. You can polish it, and then polish the polish, and make the NPCs, dwellings, terrain, quests, balance etc just as good as possible a lot more easily than if you had to do the same thing 5 or 10 times. You can make 10 NPCs as visually unique and appealing as the engine allows a lot more efficiently than if you had to do 100 NPCs. You can have complete voice acting for every starter island NPC and starter island quest even if you don't have that for the real game. First impressions are critically important. Granted there is a downside to having the second area a step below the starting area but IMO there is a *bigger* downside to not showing your best to players testing the game and deciding whether to pay for it.
I'm on the other side of the fence here, I have always found it rather jarring when I have to do a starting island. Especially when so much is packed into it and then I am released into the real game world. I don't think it's so hard to make each cities starting zones be interesting/compelling to hook new players, as generally just finding and joining your classes guild and doing a couple guild newbie quests is enough. In my experience it isn't some creative newbie island or showing of mechanics that reels me into an MMO so much as it is just a feeling of how the combat and abilities work and "flow." How well designed the cities are and how distinct they feel. What the spell effects/combat animations are.
Capturing the interests of players is going to vary wildly as to what they are looking for. New players are perhaps easier to sell on the game, I remember in EQ I was completely sold after I made my first character (human ranger) and spent around 10 minutes trying to find my way out of the pitch black Surefall Glade tunnel only to get out and be eaten by a bear while trying to kill my first bat. I think the newness, a full unexplored world (to the individual) is a great pull if the mechanics feel right. Others just want to feel the power of attacks/spells, with cool effects and sounds. Some will just want to get away from the theme park/on rails feeling of the past decade and a half.
I guess what I am saying is a newbie island with all the stops pulled to fluff it up seems like it might push people away if they get into the world and things aren't as rosy.
dorotea said:The advantage of a single starting area - call it a starter island for simplicity - is huge. You can polish it, and then polish the polish, and make the NPCs, dwellings, terrain, quests, balance etc just as good as possible a lot more easily than if you had to do the same thing 5 or 10 times. You can make 10 NPCs as visually unique and appealing as the engine allows a lot more efficiently than if you had to do 100 NPCs. You can have complete voice acting for every starter island NPC and starter island quest even if you don't have that for the real game. First impressions are critically important. Granted there is a downside to having the second area a step below the starting area but IMO there is a *bigger* downside to not showing your best to players testing the game and deciding whether to pay for it.
The way I look at it, the sheer lack of a starting area gives off a very unique first impression. Pretty much every game out there right now has a universal newbie zone, so just not having one already gives Pantheon an edge in a way. It would make people stop and think "wait, what? this isn't like every other game I've played?" I've gone through soooooo many MMO starter zones. It doesn't matter how polished or beautiful they are, they all feel the same. They're often boring and the whole time I'm just rushing to get to the "real game." My first impression would not be "oh wow, look at this beautiful, refined starting area." It would probably be "oh okay so this is nothing new." You could argue that people should stop and smell the roses, but the reality is that most people don't do that. They would mostly likely glaze over it as it's something that they've become so accustomed to seeing. Even if each of the starting racial cities are not as finely tuned, the fact that the introduction is so different will give people the pause necessary for them to realize that at least this game is not what they're used to. And it's not impossible to have multiple starting areas that are all polished. It would of course take more effort, but the effort would be worth it.
I also feel like mentioning the fact that it would probably be very difficult to spin a believable lore story about how all the races, despite many of them not liking each other, would all end up in one specific small area after having originally come from completely different worlds. I know some people just don't care about that sort of thing, but to me, it seems a little iffy.
Bazgrim said:The way I look at it, the sheer lack of a starting area gives off a very unique first impression. Pretty much every game out there right now has a universal newbie zone, so just not having one already gives Pantheon an edge in a way. It would make people stop and think "wait, what? this isn't like every other game I've played?" I've gone through soooooo many MMO starter zones. It doesn't matter how polished or beautiful they are, they all feel the same. They're often boring and the whole time I'm just rushing to get to the "real game." My first impression would not be "oh wow, look at this beautiful, refined starting area." It would probably be "oh okay so this is nothing new." You could argue that people should stop and smell the roses, but the reality is that most people don't do that. They would mostly likely glaze over it as it's something that they've become so accustomed to seeing. Even if each of the starting racial cities are not as finely tuned, the fact that the introduction is so different will give people the pause necessary for them to realize that at least this game is not what they're used to. And it's not impossible to have multiple starting areas that are all polished. It would of course take more effort, but the effort would be worth it.
You nailed it Baz, and the effort would be more than worth it.
Evoras said:Newbie areas are not 'important', they are critical!
These areas, and their surrounding zones are the pillars upon which all the rest of the game's experiences are built. They need to be bustling areas: full of NPCs, players of all levels, markets and places to go and see! A full 'newbie island' type area is both counter-productive and unneccssary. If you must have a 'lead-in' structure for those completely new to MMOs, then have it integrated into the character creation (and hence somewhat skippable for those who understand WASD).
[E.g.] Lead-in Character Creation example 1:
Your character is built via Race/Class choices with a ship as a background. Your starting city is chosen (if multiples available) and you choose a name .... you start by spawning onto the deck of a ship (perhaps with other newbies too).
While the ships sails toward the dock, you get to learn WASD, your inventory etc... then the ship docks.
[E.g.] Lead-in Character Creation example 2:
Your character is built via Race/Class choices with a dormitory/barracks as a background. Your starting city is chosen (if multiples available) and you choose a name .... you start by spawning into a dormitory/barracks of a building (perhaps with other newbies too).
Note in your backpack says 'congrats on graduating. Now go find the quartermaster for basic gear and say farewell to your trainer/mentor.' Thats it. Button pops offering 'help with WASD' etc.
All starting cities (and surrounding zones) need to have reasons for mid-high level characters to pass through/visit.
STARTER CITIES
1. (local) Banking
2. (local) produce only available from that town
3. Crafting trainers /suppliers /warehouses
4. (local) crafting recipes only available from that town
5. NPC's of interest to Mid-High level characters (faction/quest)
6. (local) Long-ish Buffs from shrine/temples/etc [NPC cast for item sacrifice]
7. Markets /marketplaces
8. Ship/other Transit hubs
9. Guild admin areasSURROUNDING ZONES
1. Mid-High level dungeon(s) access
2. (local) Harvestable node only available here
3. low level drops needed for higher-spell reagents
4. Crossroads for main travel routes
5. Specialist NPCs (eg Black-market vendor)
6. Unique features (King Pike pond, or Area that radiates)
7. High(er) incidence of GM(-led) eventsHopefully, these kind of things will keep the starter cities/zones bustling. This also means new races should be integrated into existing ciities, where possible, or attached to their starter zones where not. The more players are falling over themselves and others in the early levels, the more the 'world' seems alive. New content should include some linking in to older startiong zones where at all possible.
I’d prefer not to be forced to return to noobville where I can repeatedly be bombarded with pleas for gold or other spam messages from degenerates( lets not forget the free trial).
This type of large hub(Towns) should be around the 20-30 level range where most players have figured out their characters, the game ect and still have room to grow.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Vanguard specifically, "The Newbie Island" was implemented as a band-aid to solve the issue of low population in starting areas.
As a band-aid, it worked well. AND I will also agree that as far as starting tutorials go, Vanguard's was actually very, very fun. Favorite one I've seen - but it wasn't an ideal setup.
If they hold true to this horizontal progression they've been espousing, we don't need to consolidate the starting population in one island. It will remain in the starting cities. That's what I want. It gives you identity, and history. It makes it mean that much more when you finally step out of your starting area and see another race for the very first time. It makes the world feel more alive.
OP's heart is in the right place, but I veto tutorials with a vengeance.
I'm a big fan of per-race starting cities/towns. When Vanguard first launched (way before they added the starter island) it was great - I rolled a half-giant warrior and started out high up in the mountains on the other side of the world from my buddy who was playing a human cleric. It took us several evenings of teriffying travel across huge expanses of terrain (and past amazing sights) before we managed to actually get in the same zone and group up and it was FANTASTIC. And even around the starting town it was super dangerous. I died multiple times getting to level 2 and loved every minute of it. Also it actually took a while to get to level 2 - it wasn't just killing 3-4 creatures that I could single-shot and which posed absolutley no threat to me.
That's the kind of experience that I'm hoping for with Pantheon. Plus if every race starts somewhere different then when I create a new character I can have a totally different experience just by choosing a different race. That would make me happy.
iczer1 said:I'm a big fan of per-race starting cities/towns. When Vanguard first launched (way before they added the starter island) it was great - I rolled a half-giant warrior and started out high up in the mountains on the other side of the world from my buddy who was playing a human cleric. It took us several evenings of teriffying travel across huge expanses of terrain (and past amazing sights) before we managed to actually get in the same zone and group up and it was FANTASTIC. And even around the starting town it was super dangerous. I died multiple times getting to level 2 and loved every minute of it. Also it actually took a while to get to level 2 - it wasn't just killing 3-4 creatures that I could single-shot and which posed absolutley no threat to me.
That's the kind of experience that I'm hoping for with Pantheon. Plus if every race starts somewhere different then when I create a new character I can have a totally different experience just by choosing a different race. That would make me happy.
I agree with this 100%.
iczer1 said:It took us several evenings of teriffying travel across huge expanses of terrain (and past amazing sights) before we managed to actually get in the same zone and group up and it was FANTASTIC.
I'm with you on that and I'm sure there are many others that would agree. A lot of people make it sound like such a bad thing if you can't start playing with your friends on day one. But I think it's actually a blessing in disguise. Going on a long journey as a low-level is guaranteed to create priceless memories.
I find that tutorials and the whole 'you should feel like a hero at level 1' mentality, have hurt the overall immersion of the early game expeirence for me. The game is designed as an RPG, you're living the life of your character in another world. Why take the RP out of the game, figuring things out is just part of life. Do we really need our hand to be held? Sometimes your gonna die or get lost, so you just learn through your expierence. Id rather just be thrown into the world and take a learn as you go approach.