Kilsin said:No, not EQ specifically but that era of gamers, EQ, Vanilla WoW, VG, Ashrons Call, FF etc. Our game, Pantheon, is targeted at that era of gamers who liked the old school mechanics, socialisation, cooperation etc. but we will open the doors to anyone who finds that type of gaming appealing.
We really need to lose this mentality that this is for EQ or some kind of EQ remaster, because it really isn't. ;)
P.S. Brussel sprouts are good with lemon juice, mash potatoes and other veggies, plus they are very healthy and full of nutrition! Don;t be hatin on Brussel sprouts now lol :)
Right, we get that it's not an EQ reboot. That's exactly why we talk about what we liked and didn't like about these games, not exclusive to EQ. Because it WON'T be those games, which is an opportunity to make requests and comments about what was good and what was not, and why.
So nobody needs tell us to repeat 5 times that this isn't EQ. If we wanted EQ, we'd go play P1999 and ignore Pantheon.
If you're telling me that EQ fans weren't invited and aren't wanted, you'll need to be a lot more direct with me, I'm not big on picking up hints. Until then, I'll assume that were welcome, expected, and that you aren't shocked when we say what we loved, or hated, about the games we've played, including but not limited to EQ.
I mean, I don't want to be that date that doesn't stop calling even though you never call back or something. It's so embarrassing once you actually figure it out. :p
I also think the newbie experience is a very important one but I am NOT a fan of the island newbie area approach. I'd prefer eveyone starts in their own racial area of the world with the backstory of that particular race. The new character is just coming of age and venturing out on his/her own into the world at large and experience what it has to offer. Just throw me into the game and let me learn as I go please dont give me tooltip after tooltip with some sound that clues me int to look at a part of the UI for my next clue.
Just keep it simple.
Amris said:Kilsin said:No, not EQ specifically but that era of gamers, EQ, Vanilla WoW, VG, Ashrons Call, FF etc. Our game, Pantheon, is targeted at that era of gamers who liked the old school mechanics, socialisation, cooperation etc. but we will open the doors to anyone who finds that type of gaming appealing.
We really need to lose this mentality that this is for EQ or some kind of EQ remaster, because it really isn't. ;)
P.S. Brussel sprouts are good with lemon juice, mash potatoes and other veggies, plus they are very healthy and full of nutrition! Don;t be hatin on Brussel sprouts now lol :)
Right, we get that it's not an EQ reboot. That's exactly why we talk about what we liked and didn't like about these games, not exclusive to EQ. Because it WON'T be those games, which is an opportunity to make requests and comments about what was good and what was not, and why.
So nobody needs tell us to repeat 5 times that this isn't EQ. If we wanted EQ, we'd go play P1999 and ignore Pantheon.
If you're telling me that EQ fans weren't invited and aren't wanted, you'll need to be a lot more direct with me, I'm not big on picking up hints. Until then, I'll assume that were welcome, expected, and that you aren't shocked when we say what we loved, or hated, about the games we've played, including but not limited to EQ.
I mean, I don't want to be that date that doesn't stop calling even though you never call back or something. It's so embarrassing once you actually figure it out. :p
I was directly replying to this particular statement "They have plainly stated that EQ original players are their primary target demographic. " which is not true, we are targeting that era of games, not just EQ as I clearly pointed out in my reply and please remember that I reply in a way that is general for everyone reading this to get the most accurate information, there may be 4 pages and 20+ people posting in this particular thread but I can assure you many more are reading without accounts from the wider community, games media, peers, potential investors etc. so I will often jump in and correct misinformation so those eyes get the most accurate information possible, it is never a personal attack or calling out of the person I quote, so please don't take it personally but it needs to be done.
If people fact checked or made absolutely sure that their information was correct before posting, I would have much more time on my hands to focus on other more important areas of my job :)
Some people are of the mindset that this is an EQ remake, sequel or remaster and it is a question I get asked often so I will repeat myself as many times as needed to get the message across to those people that it in fact not a remake, sequel or remaster of anything, Pantheon is a unique blend of classically spirited MMO gaming while exploring new features and mechanics that we believe will make it a unique MMO experience.
Kilsin, I understood what you were saying. It was someone else who said, in this thread, in almost so many words, to repeat and repeat and repeat that it's not EQ, and said it to someone who simply said, "I hated PoP in EQ". The other person was whom I was saying, "we were invited here" to. I understand that others are in your demographic, also. I wasn't excluding others by saying we were invited here. You DO include EQ in your list, so we HAVE been invited here to give our perspectives on what was good and what was not on the games we've played (we, meaning EQ Original players)... and my point was that giving our, "I hated this in EQ" is not synonymous with, "because this is EQ reboot".
This is much more complicated and convoluted than what I was attempting, clearly poorly, to say.
I understand that you are saying, "not JUST EQ players," and I wasn't intending, ever, to insinuate that just EQ players were invited to the party, so to speak. I was saying that, we were invited here and we're going to talk about EQ--that doesn't equal saying we think it's EQ with new graphics. Many of us have enough wits to get that. Except the ebay guy who wants the necro to sow him. Not too sure about that guy...
Oh yeah we are going to talk EQ in here. I am a huge fan of the masterpiece that Brad and Friends released in 1999. My friends from EQ turned me on to the first Pantheon live stream and I joined as soon as I could afford it after that. When this game releases they are all coming. It will be like homecoming when it happens. If you miss it you will wish you were there 10 years from now.
The Introduce yourself section, and a couple of the posts that are overwhelmingly full of EQ players in the Champion Section of the forum should show just how many EQ players are counting on Brad and Company to deliver the right game.
The base of this game is comprised of Old EQ players. We are all itching to spend our money to recapture the great feeling that ONLY Everquest had and what we hope is put into this game. There is no way around that fact. The pressure to do that must suck, but I believe it will be done or I would not even bother to be here.
This will be a great game. I see it as modern Everquest like game, with awesome lore, that has a few modern convenient features, and a couple easy mode features to help some people to be able to play, but not enough compromise to remove the fear and danger, or the great feeling of accomplishment when you succeed.
At this point no matter what is said on this subject is going to change much. I personally do not see how they would have time to revamp or make a u-turn on the game they are creating at this point. Much of this will just be hashed out in a civilised manner in testing so the best adjustments can be made. They have to be careful about saying officially anything about this game resembling or being related to somebody else's property but it will have the "feel" that we are looking for.
No Worries
Amris said:Kilsin, I understood what you were saying. It was someone else who said, in this thread, in almost so many words, to repeat and repeat and repeat that it's not EQ, and said it to someone who simply said, "I hated PoP in EQ". The other person was whom I was saying, "we were invited here" to. I understand that others are in your demographic, also. I wasn't excluding others by saying we were invited here. You DO include EQ in your list, so we HAVE been invited here to give our perspectives on what was good and what was not on the games we've played (we, meaning EQ Original players)... and my point was that giving our, "I hated this in EQ" is not synonymous with, "because this is EQ reboot".
This is much more complicated and convoluted than what I was attempting, clearly poorly, to say.
I understand that you are saying, "not JUST EQ players," and I wasn't intending, ever, to insinuate that just EQ players were invited to the party, so to speak. I was saying that, we were invited here and we're going to talk about EQ--that doesn't equal saying we think it's EQ with new graphics. Many of us have enough wits to get that. Except the ebay guy who wants the necro to sow him. Not too sure about that guy...
I get you man and sorry I misunderstood, I have to go all robot form sometimes to get information out so sometimes the text isn't as easily relatable to certain topics or replies and I take it for something else.
I appreciate the clarification though my friend :)
Most of the time a starting area is some kind of introduction and , unfortunately, also a fixed path where players don't have a choice.
The lore of Pantheon is rich enough to let each of the races start in their respective zone.
The worst about starting zones in games is that they often are fixed storypaths without choice.
If the player would be confronted with the ways (see lore) of their chosen race,it would be refreshing to give them the choice from the get-go;
Am I part of this alignment or not.
Return to Krondor is another awesome game from the 90's.Similar to Pantheon
It may not be an mmo but I think its a great game to consider in this blend of classically spirited games
Edit
also take note of the resprentation of health and mana in the return to krondor link.It is pretty neat that the target circle under a character is a representation of their health and mana
Amris said:Kilsin, I understood what you were saying. It was someone else who said, in this thread, in almost so many words, to repeat and repeat and repeat that it's not EQ, and said it to someone who simply said, "I hated PoP in EQ". The other person was whom I was saying, "we were invited here" to. I understand that others are in your demographic, also. I wasn't excluding others by saying we were invited here. You DO include EQ in your list, so we HAVE been invited here to give our perspectives on what was good and what was not on the games we've played (we, meaning EQ Original players)... and my point was that giving our, "I hated this in EQ" is not synonymous with, "because this is EQ reboot".
This is much more complicated and convoluted than what I was attempting, clearly poorly, to say.
I understand that you are saying, "not JUST EQ players," and I wasn't intending, ever, to insinuate that just EQ players were invited to the party, so to speak. I was saying that, we were invited here and we're going to talk about EQ--that doesn't equal saying we think it's EQ with new graphics. Many of us have enough wits to get that. Except the ebay guy who wants the necro to sow him. Not too sure about that guy...
I think the main thing, at least for me, was that you specifically said "They have plainly stated that EQ original players are their primary target demographic," which is actually a false statement. VR has never said that. EQ players are of course a part of the demographic, but it's a lot bigger than that. That may not be what you meant, but it totally came across like a blatant case of selective listening. As if because EQ was a big influence, you wanted to pretend like EQ players were the favored ones. Anyway, I sincerely hope no opinion or statement falls on "deaf or hostile ears." There's a lot more to being a part of this community than just always harping about what you games you've played and what you want. I was raised in Norrath. I literally don't remember a time when EQ was not in my life. It's in my blood. But I've learned how to not be emotionally attached to it in every way and am willing to explore the possibility that it can be improved upon. That said, I'll reiterate that a universal starting area is not an improvement lol.
I thought about writing up a reply to this a couple days ago and kinda wish I had to save Kilsin some time haha. Effective communication is a tricky thing sometimes lol.
Amris you were responding to me when I suggested that we repeat "this is not EQ". My point wasn't that EQ isn't important. It is clearly the primary model on which Pantheon will be based. My point wasn't that EQ players aren't important - they are clearly the core of this community although far from the entire community. I was trying for a bit of levity and may have underestimated how emotional this debate has gotten. Frankly I also was responding to the tone of your prior post which, rightly or wrongly, I didn't take as calm and nuanced. I apologize that the attempted levity came across as an attack, which it was never intended to be.
dorotea said:Amris you were responding to me when I suggested that we repeat "this is not EQ". My point wasn't that EQ isn't important. It is clearly the primary model on which Pantheon will be based. My point wasn't that EQ players aren't important - they are clearly the core of this community although far from the entire community. I was trying for a bit of levity and may have underestimated how emotional this debate has gotten. Frankly I also was responding to the tone of your prior post which, rightly or wrongly, I didn't take as calm and nuanced. I apologize that the attempted levity came across as an attack, which it was never intended to be.
In truth, I didn't think it was in reply to me at all (it didn't quote me, but rather someone else). I, for whatever reason, nonetheless, felt defensive and prickly about it. That, of course, did less than positive things for my communication skills.
That is part of why I went out of my way to say that I recognize that you are a generally thoughtful person, and it seemed out of character.
I can readily accept that you didn't mean it the way I took it, as I've read your posts enough to acknowledge that the way it sounded to me is not in line with your general demeanor. :)
(Edit: I actually feel really bad about how this whole side convo has gotten out of hand, but alas, what is done is done. If I beat myself up every time I screwed up, I'd be a practice dummy in WoW. :p )
Soooo, anyway. Back on topic.
I am actually thinking a lot more about this Newbie Area. I like how you all feel about it and the emotions evoked from memories is something I feel strongly about as well. But I can't help but feel that everyone's opinion comes with the assumption that populations will always be super high and everyone will always be starting new characters.
What happens when Pantheon is a seasoned game and the starting areas are vacant ghost towns? How do we all manage a game centered around group content with one to two newbies in a vast area? How do we make sure that people still are able to see and experience the content, while playing catch up to those that have been in the game for a long time? We all may not like the solutions with starting areas (I didn't say Turorial, WASD, got it) but how would you make sure that if a player logs on during non-prime time, they can have a fun and enjoyable experience until they are high enough level to encounter other seasoned players?
Solveris said:What happens when Pantheon is a seasoned game and the starting areas are vacant ghost towns? How do we all manage a game centered around group content with one to two newbies in a vast area? How do we make sure that people still are able to see and experience the content, while playing catch up to those that have been in the game for a long time? We all may not like the solutions with starting areas (I didn't say Turorial, WASD, got it) but how would you make sure that if a player logs on during non-prime time, they can have a fun and enjoyable experience until they are high enough level to encounter other seasoned players?
That's thinking too far in the future. They can always change it later, though I am not so sure there would be a need even then. What ended up happening in EQ was that as server size shrank, or on the smaller servers, the population (generally) stuck to certain areas while leveling and you could often find groups without much issue when going to those places. As long as they have a strong LFG toolset (as they have indicated they will) then it shouldn't be too bad.
Solveris said:Soooo, anyway. Back on topic.
I am actually thinking a lot more about this Newbie Area. I like how you all feel about it and the emotions evoked from memories is something I feel strongly about as well. But I can't help but feel that everyone's opinion comes with the assumption that populations will always be super high and everyone will always be starting new characters.
What happens when Pantheon is a seasoned game and the starting areas are vacant ghost towns? How do we all manage a game centered around group content with one to two newbies in a vast area? How do we make sure that people still are able to see and experience the content, while playing catch up to those that have been in the game for a long time? We all may not like the solutions with starting areas (I didn't say Turorial, WASD, got it) but how would you make sure that if a player logs on during non-prime time, they can have a fun and enjoyable experience until they are high enough level to encounter other seasoned players?
Thank you for bringing it back on topic :)
If we run into population problems years down the track we can think about adding a centralised noobie area but for launch and hopefully for many years beyond that, we will have exactly what I posted above and what is on our FAQ which is racial starting areas with a brief tutorial, help from other community members, socialisation and freedom to explore on your own, by now many people know how an MMORPG works, they know the controls and the basics, Pantheon won't be anything alien in that sense and the rest is just paying attention to NPCs and the conversations and experiences you have :)
bigdogchris said:Pantheon is going to have unique starting cities/areas for players based on your race. Unless there are some serious population issues I doubt they will dump everyone into a single island. I believe I have heard/read Brad say the tutorial will be while you play.
However, I do think it would be a good idea to have a tutorial while you play. Of course, you should be able to disable it so when you make new characters you're not bombarded by popup windows again.
I really start to detest tutorials after awhile, as I tend to make alts..so yes hopefully there is a toggle to turn that monotony off. :P Looking forward to the different starting cities, the lore (story) for each one etc. That creates a lot of replayability and will ensure that I stick with Pantheon for a long, long time. :)
Emphatically agree about the importance of multiple starting areas for replayability - whether there is a tutorial overlay or not the starting areas are critical. Agree even more empatically about the need to be able to opt out of any tutorial but can't even imagine them not having that feature.
dorotea said:Emphatically agree about the importance of multiple starting areas for replayability - whether there is a tutorial overlay or not the starting areas are critical. Agree even more empatically about the need to be able to opt out of any tutorial but can't even imagine them not having that feature.
Nope not saying they shouldn't have tutorials...they should, but give us old timers the option to turn it off, specially if we're planning to restart in certain areas a few times. I'm an altoholic, I get the tutorial..by the time I am done creating I could probably do them all blindfolded. hehehe
You know, it is a given that the success or a failure of an MMO happens in the first month if not the first week .
The problem is not to get a massive influx of potential players on Day 1 because this is sure to happen .
The problem is to interest them enough that they are caught and contemplate to stay for a few months or a year and to PAY for it ..
The challenge is to keep the category of those thinking after 2 hours of playing "Bleh, again just another generic boring MMO" at a minimum . Those players finish by logging off, uninstalling and never look back .
There are many studies analysing f.ex why SWTOR after having reached 1M+ players in 1 week became the disaster it was 4 months later .
Now the players on Day 1 get basically to see only the starting area .
That's why its design is paramount and I'd even dare to say that it is the single most important thing in an MMO's launch .
EQ (miraculously or intentionally ?) got it exactly right .
If one sees the massive investment that went into the design of f.ex Qeynos, Neriak, Freeport or Kelethin with all the details, secret doors, wandering and talking NPCs, factions, compelling stories and hidden quests, one understands why a player immersed inside instantly forgets the real world and is caught in Norrath for months and years to come .
So yes, I am happy that Pantheon seems to go the same way and that the starting racial cities/areas may actually even be more important and better fleshed out than they were in EQ .
A generic newbie area like Vanguard's Isle of Dawn or the current EQ's cave are completely missing the target and would probably lead to failure if they were the first player's contact with a game at launch .
I'm totally with Canadina on the importance of having unique starting areas by race. It gives you a backstory and an impression of the core values of that race. It gives you a sense of personality that your character is influenced by. And as she point out provides exponentially greater joy in replayability of the game when you start a character of a race you've not previously played. This alone is a very important factor.
I dont think many (anyone?) is suggesting that newbie zones be segregated and only for newbies. They should simply be lower level areas around a race's capital city in which new players can do starter quests that introduce them to the game systems, the layout of their home, and the way that standard mechanics operate. I would certainly hope that there would be characters of all levels moving about in the area if not simply to travel to and from town.
As for tutorials, I do see value in quests that introduce people to the game. I do not think that it should be a protracted thing that means to introduce every tiny little nuance, or do it in a way that says "We believe you to be a total idiot, and we need to spoon feed you everything.".
I agree with everything Deadshade said - it is the basis for my own opinion on how starting areas should work except he said it better. Reasonable minds can differ on the best way of engrossing the wave of new players but it is unquestionably of the most critical importance. More so than whether the game is 100% true to the goals inherent in a rebirth of old school MMOs. A game that does 90% of what we want (ignoring the self-evident fact that we aren't monolthic and want differing thngs) and succeeeds is infinitely better than a game that does 100% of what we want and fails.
They have probably already decided this, but I'd rather they don't have a tutorial. I don't even like an optional tutorial. Everyone just starts at their racial city and learns how to play the game together. If there are any questions other players will help, but I doubt anything will be so complicated it can't be learned through trial an error. In the age of EQ, most of us had a lot less of an idea of what to do and the games had mostly textual commands. We still managed to play the games of that era. I would venture to say the games ended up being more fun because of it. It was a learning experience and it felt more like an adventure. Tutorials often make games feel like just games.
UnknownQuantity said:They have probably already decided this, but I'd rather they don't have a tutorial. I don't even like an optional tutorial. Everyone just starts at their racial city and learns how to play the game together. If there are any questions other players will help, but I doubt anything will be so complicated it can't be learned through trial an error. In the age of EQ, most of us had a lot less of an idea of what to do and the games had mostly textual commands. We still managed to play the games of that era. I would venture to say the games ended up being more fun because of it. It was a learning experience and it felt more like an adventure. Tutorials often make games feel like just games.
It is possible to integrate new school players into an old school style. But it needs to be accessible. There needs to be an optional tutorial. It can be done well and it doesn't have to be hand-holding, but the "figure it out on your own" method is not for everyone. It's important to remember that back in "the day", there were not that many other games even available on the market. People played a game because they didn't really have any other choice. They may not have enjoyed it at first, but they stuck with it because it was all there was to do. Yes, it was rewarding when you eventually figured it out, but these days, people will not even get to the rewarding point if the game is not inviting. Unfortunately, there is just no going back to a point where the market is not saturated. So games do need to adapt to a degree to make the first steps more user-friendly. I'm of course not saying that the entire game has to be convenient or user-friendly, but the door has to be open. VR has said that they want to introduce this old school style to new players. And in order to do so, there needs to be some sort of a smooth transition at first, or you'll just lose them instantly. That's just how it is.
Alot of MMOs did it right but I can also say that a lot of done it wrong, different races need different newbie areas it just makes the world seem so much bigger and a zone that feels like it your to admire instead of everyone looking at the exactly the same thing. A little of object but I also like how certain areas that the newbie zone is connected to doesn't mean that the zone is within your level, refer to ferrott, connected to rathe mountains in eq, big jump in levels and I hope things like this happen just because I think it adds character to the world and not everything is a straight line in level progression when it comes to zones, sry for jumping off topic a bit but it came to me and I said to write it down