Ainadak said:I weighed in a while ago in this thread on the benefits of removing /loc from the game, but the developers shortly thereafter announced in a stream that /loc will indeed be included. However, since this thread has been dragged up again a new question has popped into my mind. What are the intended uses for /loc that improves gameplay?
From my experience /loc is used to store a location for yourself, reference an external map, or convey a location to another person. Storing locations for yourself is relatively harmless, allowing people get to their corpses or helping get back to a fun camp that they found earlier. However, referencing external grid maps and conveying locations to other people seem to have a dramatic effect on the population on the whole. It always seemed unnatural to me that a player could shout to the world and ask "where Hubert the gardener's lost key?" and 15 people can respond back that it's at exactly 142,-2000. This is even before mentioning my dislike for the minigame that comes from tracking your heading by watching a stream of number pairs in your chat log. I also see referencing external grid maps in the same way. People often use the argument that all explorers created maps, but none of those maps had the ability to say where on the map they were without consulting the lay of the land or known landmarks.
I would propose a personal /loc system. Each person is given an account-tied /loc system that varies the x-y axis angle, x-y offset, and scale factor for each zone. Each person using /loc would work identically to the way it has in the past, but no one person's /loc would be the same as any other person's /loc. The lost key will always be at 142,-2000 for you, but it might be -587,-100 for someone else. This proposition assumes that conveying locations of players and objects in the form of x-y axis numbers is not desired.
If you wish to see my original arguments on to the detrimental effects of including /loc then you can reference page 4 of this thread.
The EQ /loc system is an old school relic that, to me, doesn't fit. It's a clear immersion breaker and all the other things you described above. They are basically GPS coordinates.
Krixus said:The EQ /loc system is an old school relic that, to me, doesn't fit. It's a clear immersion breaker and all the other things you described above. They are basically GPS coordinates.
The developers have stated publicly that /loc will be included in the game, so the real question is if we can make /loc work better than it currently does. That is why I posted my suggestion. I am glad that you voiced concern over the mechanic as it stands though.
I'm all for punishing gameplay. I want XP to be lost, and I want it to be a pain in the butt, and dangerous, to retrieve my corpse and the items therin - but do we really need to make it hard to physically FIND the corpse? Is that something the community sees as falling under the "punishing" umbrella? I, frankly, don't see the problem with some kind of innate tracking ability to at least locate a corpse within a zone. I definitely don't want there to be a giant golden imaginary road that leads you to your corpse, but at least a skill of some kind that every class has that assists with the tracking of the corpse. Much like how sense heading worked - a skill you had to level up.
"Your corpse is X feet to the north, and Y feet to the west" etc, etc.
You still lose XP. You still have to retrieve your corpse. You would still need to find a rogue or a necro for a corpse run/summon if it's in a dangerous spot. It just gets rid of the "/ooc anybody seen my corpse?" nonsense. Also gets rid of the need for the antiquated /loc option.
I'm guessing certain classes will have some sort of locate corpse ability. That being said, I very much think finding your corpse should be difficult at times.
It is very hard for you to say :
I definitely don't want there to be a giant golden imaginary road that leads you to your corpse, but at least a skill of some kind that every class has that assists with the tracking of the corpse.
...without it sounding a little bit contradictory.
Whether it is a golden path leading to your corpse or a sense heading type of skill that tells you where to go to get to your corpse I really don't see much difference.
There should definitely be times when people struggle to find their corpse. This is one of the most basic examples of when I hope the game doesnt hold peoples hand. Incompetence should be punished. If I am able to get to a location to die, I should be able to find my way back to that location. If I ran like a chicken with my head cut off into an area I am unfamiliar with there should definitely be a penalty for my actions.
philo said:I'm guessing certain classes will have some sort of locate corpse ability. That being said, I very much think finding your corpse should be difficult at times.
It is very hard for you to say :
I definitely don't want there to be a giant golden imaginary road that leads you to your corpse, but at least a skill of some kind that every class has that assists with the tracking of the corpse.
...without it sounding a little bit contradictory.
Whether it is a golden path leading to your corpse or a sense heading type of skill that tells you where to go to get to your corpse I really don't see much difference.
There should definitely be times when people struggle to find their corpse. This is one of the most basic examples of when I hope the game doesnt hold peoples hand. Incompetence should be punished. If I am able to get to a location to die, I should be able to find my way back to that location. If I ran like a chicken with my head cut off into an area I am unfamiliar with there should definitely be a penalty for my actions.
On a fundamental level, I agree with you - but I also believe that the difficulty in reaching the corpse should be the punishing part, not the difficulty in FINDING it, but I can concede that I may be in the minority here.
As for the contradiction, sure, I can see that, however to me it's the difference between a sense heading skill from EQ that you have to level up, versus a giant compass on a mini map. Sure, they both serve the same function, they both are easy to use, but the need to level up one and the lack of a visible hand-holding element makes all the difference. It sounds silly, but my reaction to no compass and sense heading is "cool, they're making me figure it out myself", while my reaction to a giant compass is "this sucks, i don't need my hand held" ...but really, is there much difference?
But maybe that's just me.
Edit: Also, I'm projecting. I hated the /loc skill in EQ, and I sucked at it, especially as an idiotic 14 year old. Always got lost. Ha.
Sounds to me like a lot of folks are misremembering what actually made EQ1 challenging, including the devs.
Did anyone ever have trouble finding their corpse after about level 20? No. Was the game still a challenge? Yes.
Did anyone ever have trouble getting a map from a fansite and using it to navigate? No. Was the game still a challenge? Yes.
Did anyone ever have a hard time finding group members after getting to know a zone? No. Was the game still a challenge? Yes.
Tralyan said:As for the contradiction, sure, I can see that, however to me it's the difference between a sense heading skill from EQ that you have to level up, versus a giant compass on a mini map. Sure, they both serve the same function, they both are easy to use, but the need to level up one and the lack of a visible hand-holding element makes all the difference.
I'm pretty sure certain classes will have some sort of locate corpse ability so if the rogue has to lvl up their skill fine. If the necro has a sense corpse spell ok. I agree with you there. I still don't think everyone should have it.
Regardless of the whole point about there being consequences for your actions, giving everyone any ability takes away the social aspect that makes players rely on each other. Lost your corpse? Find a rogue or necro. Relying on your fellow community members is important.
Also, there will be times when you can't find your corpse for an hour or more and it is frustrating and it's probably pissing you off. While it might not seem like it in the moment, once you finally do find your corpse it feels like you actually overcame a hurdle. You have a feeling of relief because you accomplished something (no matter how trivial). Its these type of tiny struggles that are what we all need in games again.
Krixus said:The EQ /loc system is an old school relic that, to me, doesn't fit. It's a clear immersion breaker and all the other things you described above. They are basically GPS coordinates.
You're right, and, once external maps are made - most of the spawns/drops/zones etc. are listed by Their (Loc, Loc). And, if I know a loc of it, I will be /auto running spamming /loc versus trying to "find" something through learning the territory/landmarks, which as you said, basically acts as a rudimentary GPS.
So remove /loc. No harm no foul outside of corpse runs (or maybe bug reporting/petitions).
So, what could be in game to assist with finding a corpse outside of players and loc? If I was in a zone that I didn't know and was dying in EQ, I would also try to hit /loc before death. Or, if it was a huge zone like Emerald Jungle I did also. And, many of the large outdoor zones didn't have players that could help you locate corpses (or guild members weren't on).
Could I have found the corpses - sure, but even I can admit there would be some "hardcore" elements that would borderline on being overly frustrating. You could also give a player some sort of "Sense Corpse" skill, or perhaps a wand from the local shady swashbuckler that has 5 charges of "locate" corpse which provides a sense heading type buff (Maybe like 5 minutes) that says your corpse is to the West. Either scenario would create less class utility in necromancers (dire lords?), less community interaction, and less frustrating (which become ultimately memorable) experiences.
I think the more realistic compromise since the Devs said /loc is already going to be in game is to have a no /loc feature on whatever server ultimately becomes the "hardcore" one (if there was one).
TLDR: I agree that /loc is a rudiemtary GPS, but since the Devs had already said it's going to be in game, the most likely scenario to remove it would be a hardcore alternative ruleset sever and all others would bleed over other classes utility.
/shout "Mithril Greaves rotting on a Dwarven Centurion at /loc! " We'd be missing out on this nostalgic experience. Sure, you could invite that person to group so they can find you, but your group may be on the move and not want to hang around that long. Maybe not even /shout it at all. Nobody likes to see good lore items rot. I say keep /loc in. Hell, i remember mapping all of West Karana using graph paper and /loc. That's one of my EARLIEST EQ1 memories that's stuck with me still, today.
Keiiek said:/shout "Mithril Greaves rotting on a Dwarven Centurion at /loc! " We'd be missing out on this nostalgic experience. Sure, you could invite that person to group so they can find you, but your group may be on the move and not want to hang around that long. Maybe not even /shout it at all. Nobody likes to see good lore items rot. I say keep /loc in. Hell, i remember mapping all of West Karana using graph paper and /loc. That's one of my EARLIEST EQ1 memories that's stuck with me still, today.
I agree with the mapping example you bring up. However, if you had a personal /loc grid (the one I suggested earlier in the thread), then you would still be able to create a map for yourself. If you had a personal /loc grid you could even take a map someone else made, then fill in the x-y values of the landmarks for your particular account's zone grid. I just don't think people in this day and age will be mapping out zones themselves when everyone is so used to the notion that you can just ask google, which will very quickly yield all the maps they would be searching for. I also mapped out BBM when I was 13 and playing EQ1 for the first time, but I just can't picture many 13 year olds creating their own maps of Pantheon.
As far as your mithril greaves argument though, I can't say that I see the merit. Even in games with /loc, people develop a common shorthand for landmarks that allow them to communicate locations. You could just as easily say "north of the guard hut" instead. Sure it doesn't have the accuracy of gps coordinates, but is that really so bad?
It's easy to point out the things that would be lost with change, but it's very difficult to foresee the things that will be gained as a result of it. In the end it's all just a matter of personal opinion though. Some people don't want to be bothered with the challenge of navigation because it's not fun for them. Some don't like the /loc spam and track by numbers minigame. Some people want to have to fear the possibility of getting lost.
Final thought: If the name of /loc was instead /gps, would people find it more immersion breaking, even if it were functionally identical?
There's nothing fun or heroic about getting lost in the same place for the 10th time when a normal human being, never mind a fantasy hero, would have had a better sense of direction and feel for the place by then. Even modern 3D graphics and sound don't give an adequate sense of direction.
There is nothing fun or heroic about looking up a map on Pantheon's innevitable EQAtlas equivalent to find your way and also see spoilers for the whole area while you are looking.
There is nothing fun or heroic in having to learn how to be a cartographer and orienteer when I somehow don't have to learn to be a swordsman or arcanist.
There could be huge fun and heroism in your character developing a mapping skill combined with the Perception system to have in-game, personal maps be drawn as you adventure.
You could buy/find/win partial maps with treasure locations or orc patrol routes or any number of interesting things, all without needing to break immersion and go Google stuff and get spoilers.
disposalist said:There's nothing fun or heroic about getting lost in the same place for the 10th time when a normal human being, never mind a fantasy hero, would have had a better sense of direction and feel for the place by then. Even modern 3D graphics and sound don't give an adequate sense of direction.
There is nothing fun or heroic about looking up a map on Pantheon's innevitable EQAtlas equivalent to find your way and also see spoilers for the whole area while you are looking.
There is nothing fun or heroic in having to learn how to be a cartographer and orienteer when I somehow don't have to learn to be a swordsman or arcanist.
There could be huge fun and heroism in your character developing a mapping skill combined with the Perception system to have in-game, personal maps be drawn as you adventure.
You could buy/find/win partial maps with treasure locations or orc patrol routes or any number of interesting things, all without needing to break immersion and go Google stuff and get spoilers.
Building a game that makes you feel heroic at every turn isn't necessarily the best strategy. There's nothing heroic about dying, but it's going to be a part of Pantheon. I agree that repeatedly getting lost is frustrating and actively humbling, but maybe the developers want to humble us.
I agree that using an external map to find your location isn't the best option, but the devs have said in no uncertain terms that there will be no maps in game past the world atlas (cartography left up in the air). I would like to see a system more fleshed out than nothing at all, but we play the hand we're dealt.
You don't need to be a swordsman or arcanist to play a game about warriors and wizards, what you need is an understanding of combat strategies. You don't need to be a cartographer to play a game without maps, what you need are general navigation abilities. The requirement of any skill in order to play a game will appeal to some and push away others.
Unfortunately this isn't a situation where you can make a logical case and end up with a conclusion that maps should be included in the game. You can argue the validity of an opinion, but in the end it is only a personal opinion that will hopefully help to persuade the developers to sway the game in your desired direction.
Also, this is a discussion of /loc and corpse summon. /loc has some ties to mapping, but a discussion of maps without referencing these two other terms should be reserved for threads on that specific topic.
Using /loc gives you the map coordinates. I am starting to think after two husbands that this may be a "male" thing.
Two husbands that refused to use maps and generally got us lost. Which meant that I ended being the designated map user and navigator.
The other thing about EXPLORING your environment, is noting where you are, what landmarks show up in front of you...and making a mental note. (or a note on a pad of paper) Thank goodness for GPS in real life eh? Little robotic voice that tells you where to go, don't have to think..just do as you're told :P
......I still prefer exploring my environment, mental notes of where I am...so I DON'T get lost. I am all for cartography ingame, people can create and sell those maps for those that don't find the time and patience to actually look around them as they are passing through. :P
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:Using /loc gives you the map coordinates. I am starting to think after two husbands that this may be a "male" thing.
Two husbands that refused to use maps and generally got us lost. Which meant that I ended being the designated map user and navigator.
The other thing about EXPLORING your environment, is noting where you are, what landmarks show up in front of you...and making a mental note. (or a note on a pad of paper) Thank goodness for GPS in real life eh? Little robotic voice that tells you where to go, don't have to think..just do as you're told :P
......I still prefer exploring my environment, mental notes of where I am...so I DON'T get lost. I am all for cartography ingame, people can create and sell those maps for those that don't find the time and patience to actually look around them as they are passing through. :P
Cana
I maintain that the map should never be drawn by the game for anyone. None of the player walking in an area and the map being "filled in", aka the fog of war being removed. If there's a real cartography skill where people have to draw maps themselves, that'd be awesome. It also sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of reward when there will be maps online.
These threads are driving me crazy!
187 lays out a pretty great cartography system here in this thread thats actually about mapping...
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/8
Instead of in this one we're in thats about corpse recovery.
Zorkon said:These threads are driving me crazy!
187 lays out a pretty great cartography system here in this thread thats actually about mapping...
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/8
Instead of in this one we're in thats about corpse recovery.
Yeah, sorry.
I want maps but I don't want them given to me by default. Starting City/Town, yeah, you get a map for that.
Why not make collecting cartography information part of the game. Find a scroll, read a road sign, talk to a NCP, cast an intuition spell etc. All of those things could be done in a way where it's fun to collect information about the world you're adventuring in. I think it could be done in a way that's interesting and not necessairily web-community emunerable a la Allakhazam's. =P Perhaps, that information, or some subset of it, could be shared player to player in game.
Zorkon said:These threads are driving me crazy!
187 lays out a pretty great cartography system here in this thread thats actually about mapping...
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/8
Instead of in this one we're in thats about corpse recovery.
I'm not sure why /loc doesn't fit here for corpse recovery. We used /loc to get the map coordinates to find our corpses in EQ.
CanadinaXegony said:Zorkon said:These threads are driving me crazy!
187 lays out a pretty great cartography system here in this thread thats actually about mapping...
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/8
Instead of in this one we're in thats about corpse recovery.
I'm not sure why /loc doesn't fit here for corpse recovery. We used /loc to get the map coordinates to find our corpses in EQ.
I think he was arguing that this thread shouldn't be devoted to maps without any connection to corpse recovery. However, the OP actually referenced /loc as its use for finding landmarks, which is effectively mapping. You were posting about /loc and how it applied to landmarks so that falls within the intended thread topic, so I doubt it was referring to you.
CanadinaXegony said:your correct and /loc is part of the conversation. I wasent refering to your post Cana, more to the post referencing map making and cartography when there is already an active thread on that.Zorkon said:These threads are driving me crazy!
187 lays out a pretty great cartography system here in this thread thats actually about mapping...
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/8
Instead of in this one we're in thats about corpse recovery.
I'm not sure why /loc doesn't fit here for corpse recovery. We used /loc to get the map coordinates to find our corpses in EQ.
Zorkon said:CanadinaXegony said:your correct and /loc is part of the conversation. I wasent refering to your post Cana, more to the post referencing map making and cartography when there is already an active thread on that.Zorkon said:These threads are driving me crazy!
187 lays out a pretty great cartography system here in this thread thats actually about mapping...
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/8
Instead of in this one we're in thats about corpse recovery.
I'm not sure why /loc doesn't fit here for corpse recovery. We used /loc to get the map coordinates to find our corpses in EQ.
Oh come on now, it's not a big leap. You use both of them to know where you are.