Liav said:Sevens said:Why? there will be a million sites with maps on them, hell EQdiva had all of the world mapped out BEFORE any in game tools were added to support it.
Print them out, put them in a book and use those
It just seems absurd to me. If people are going to use maps anyway, why should we basically be required to alt tab, print **** out, or run a dual monitor setup for it? Instead of suggesting workarounds for a lack of in-game maps, maybe ask yourself why maps are worth excluding in the first place.
There's no excuse for things as archaic as that in a new game. None whatsoever. It's needlessly cryptic.
I disagree, I think there are a lot of reasons to exclude them.
but since we are going to have maps, lets just go ahead and put the place markers on them..no sense in not having them, Or quest markers, people will just alt tab out for them too....etc etc
(Yes, Text book slippery slope argument)
Liav said:Jasper said:Liav said:Honestly, a lack of an in game map just sounds terrible to me.
Has that been confirmed yet?
I agree. I'm not looking for a 100% recreation of EQ with shiny graphics. There are SOME quality of life things we can add to the game and still make it challenging. Having an ingame map, but no minimap would be a great compromise IMO.Yeah, and I don't even want a map with quest waypoints or any real features.
Just a nice map that displays your location on it.
There is absolutely no reason we should have to alt tab between the client and Fansite#9812374 to know where we're going, because that's pretty much exactly what will happen without maps in game.
Totaly agree. I don't want a highly detailed map and I prefer a "Fog of war" esk fill in method for the map (basically nothing until you explore, the more you explore the more it fills in). What I would really like is a map that fills in and also allows you to make comments on it for your own personal use.
I have a bunch of co-workers and friends that were not part of the EQ1 experience, but are interested in Pantheon and are on board with the slower rate of advancement, as well as the grouped nature of the game.......but the one thing that I consistantly get eye-roills from, is when I mention the lack of map. None want floating "?" marks, but all say the same thing "So my character is smart enough to learn magic, but can't draw a map?"
Sevens said:Liav said:Why not three monitors then? Perhaps a fourth to make sure you have (insert Cleric HP buff of choice) on you at all times?
As a matter of fact, we should just have a separate monitor for chat windows too. Every UI piece gets a separate monitor!
Obviously I'm being a jackass here.
I look forward to playing Pantheon because it diverges from newer games in some ways, however maps just aren't one of the things that I think is worth diverging from. Super detailed maps with quest waypoints? Sure. Altogether though? Nah. Nahhhhhhhhhh.
Textbook Reductio ad absurdum
I love my print out maps, also dont really understand the whole tabbing out every 15 min argument either...Never learned the zone? or are you just use to the new mmo games where you just run throught the content in a matter of days so not really needing to learn the zone? Hell to this day I can zone into Guk and make it to any camp or spot in the zone with never once looking at a map
In fairness I acknowledged out that I was being a jackass.
However, the justifications used to exclude simple maps from the user interface could be equally easily applied to a variety of other UI elements that we assuredly will have. That is the issue that I take with this topic, because the decision to exclude maps seems largely arbitrary, and it's already all but guaranteed that people will work around this anyway by using third party sources.
Sevens said:I love my print out maps, also dont really understand the whole tabbing out every 15 min argument either...Never learned the zone? or are you just use to the new mmo games where you just run throught the content in a matter of days so not really needing to learn the zone? Hell to this day I can zone into Guk and make it to any camp or spot in the zone with never once looking at a map
I could use this same argument against a compass, /loc command, Sense Heading, or any other basic navigational tool.
While I'm certain that we both know the layout of zones in an 18 year old game, I fail to see how that it applicable to Pantheon.
Exempting simple maps from Pantheon guarantees that Pantheon will fail to meet a very, very, very low bar of expectation for features in a modern game, and for no other reason than to make the new user experience exceptionally more difficult for no real reason.
This is yet another example of injecting difficulty into an area where it absolutely does not need to be. You know how to make a bad product? Make the interface through which the user experiences the product needlessly cryptic and unintuitive.
Sevens said:Liav said:Sevens said:Why? there will be a million sites with maps on them, hell EQdiva had all of the world mapped out BEFORE any in game tools were added to support it.
Print them out, put them in a book and use those
It just seems absurd to me. If people are going to use maps anyway, why should we basically be required to alt tab, print **** out, or run a dual monitor setup for it? Instead of suggesting workarounds for a lack of in-game maps, maybe ask yourself why maps are worth excluding in the first place.
There's no excuse for things as archaic as that in a new game. None whatsoever. It's needlessly cryptic.
I disagree, I think there are a lot of reasons to exclude them.
but since we are going to have maps, lets just go ahead and put the place markers on them..no sense in not having them, Or quest markers, people will just alt tab out for them too....etc etc
(Yes, Text book slippery slope argument)
I already addressed this in a previous post, stating that information regarding quests is no where near categorically similar to surface level information such as navigation.
I agree that some information should be hidden from the user. I disagree that basic navigational information qualifies.
Liav said:Sevens said:Liav said:Sevens said:Why? there will be a million sites with maps on them, hell EQdiva had all of the world mapped out BEFORE any in game tools were added to support it.
Print them out, put them in a book and use those
It just seems absurd to me. If people are going to use maps anyway, why should we basically be required to alt tab, print **** out, or run a dual monitor setup for it? Instead of suggesting workarounds for a lack of in-game maps, maybe ask yourself why maps are worth excluding in the first place.
There's no excuse for things as archaic as that in a new game. None whatsoever. It's needlessly cryptic.
I disagree, I think there are a lot of reasons to exclude them.
but since we are going to have maps, lets just go ahead and put the place markers on them..no sense in not having them, Or quest markers, people will just alt tab out for them too....etc etc
(Yes, Text book slippery slope argument)
I already addressed this in a previous post, stating that information regarding quests is no where near categorically similar to surface level information such as navigation.
I agree that some information should be hidden from the user. I disagree that basic navigational information qualifies.
Agreed BASIC informatin.../loc, a compass.
Sevens said:Agreed BASIC informatin.../loc, a compass.
What makes /loc basic? It provides you with absolute information, which can be used directly to discern your exact location. I would consider a map and compass much more basic.
Sevens said:Agreed BASIC informatin.../loc, a compass.
A very simple map qualifies as basic in my eyes. Slash commands like /loc are just such an archaic way to interact with a modern game.
Personally: I am honestly shocked at the number of folks here who are arguing in favor of maps in game. This to me made things more interesting and forced you to learn your surroundings, the same as your character would since it was an RPG. To even suggest that this game have a map, or no corpses, or instant-travel-anywhere seems anethema. I thought the point of the whole project was to do something different.
From an RPG perspective, your character might well have a sense of direction and have a UI compass -- that makes sense. This is a low-tech world, filled with different races from different planets, many of which are relatively new to Terminus. There is absolutely no reason that the everyday denizen would possess the means or skill to have knowledge of their surroundings unless they were sufficiently well traveled (in which case the actual player should know from experience), outside of their home city and local starting area which does make sense that they would have some knowledge of.
From experience: UO had an in game mini map. EQ which came out what, 2 years later, didn't. And it was awesome. DAoC also didn't have a map of any kind, and I knew nearly every zone of my faction and the frontier zones very well, from actually experiencing them, getting lost and finding my way out. EQ was a much bigger game and I never got to know every zone, but I recall the challenge and the feelling of satisfaction of learning an area.
That said, I find the argument that maps are crucial to the success of this game to be lacking. I will alt + tab when I need to if I am sufficiently lost, and print maps if I need to. Having the game client do it for me is not something that I support, for the same reasons that I don't support identifying harvest nodes, quick travel and questgivers on a map -- it's breaks immersion in game, and tells you information that your character likely wouldn't know.
CanadinaXegony said:But, a cartography skill where you can make maps ingame..possibly sell copies of those ingame maps to friends, guildies etc...might be a good idea.
I thoroughly dislike the idea of no maps, especially if you plan to make vast zones. I see no value in not having them, it's one of those quality of life additions that enriched rather than hurt EQ1 in my opinion. I would rather see a cartographer tool that allows us to make in-game maps, however rather than make them exportable, allow the catographer to scribe a book of their maps and sell them, which will further support a player driven economy and remove the ease of getting all your maps via mapfiend or other sites by a simple download than no maps. Want good maps? You're going to pay for them. As another trade off, you could also make them a little more difficult to use than in EQ: make them full screen and don't all them to be transparent overlays so you lose the screen, i.e. you can navigate with them open. Printing out your maps from Eqatlas was great in it's time, it's one of those most fun i never want to have again kind of things.
Reht said:CanadinaXegony said:But, a cartography skill where you can make maps ingame..possibly sell copies of those ingame maps to friends, guildies etc...might be a good idea.
I thoroughly dislike the idea of no maps, especially if you plan to make vast zones. I see no value in not having them, it's one of those quality of life additions that enriched rather than hurt EQ1 in my opinion. I would rather see a cartographer tool that allows us to make in-game maps, however rather than make them exportable, allow the catographer to scribe a book of their maps and sell them, which will further support a player driven economy and remove the ease of getting all your maps via mapfiend or other sites by a simple download than no maps. Want good maps? You're going to pay for them. As another trade off, you could also make them a little more difficult to use than in EQ: make them full screen and don't all them to be transparent overlays so you lose the screen, i.e. you can navigate with them open. Printing out your maps from Eqatlas was great in it's time, it's one of those most fun i never want to have again kind of things.
The only time you would find anyone that said maps in EQ1 were the reason they quit would be someone right now in this thread trying to prove a point.
Reht said:Eliseus said:The only time you would find anyone that said maps in EQ1 were the reason they quit would be someone right now in this thread trying to prove a point.
Yeah, i have yet to see a strong point for having no maps beyond personal preference.
My problem I'm having with some of the opinions here are "Because classic EQ" and it drives me nuts at times. It's safe to assume, at least from many of the posts here, that a lot of these players loved FFXI, Vanguard, EQ1. That doesn't mean that all the bad should be implemented also. I think a lot of the people already on these forums will probably still play the game even if it didn't have a map, but I'm trying to think outside of the box of all the potential players to come. No one wants a WoW clone, but having map does not mean WoW clone. And the ease of accessing maps and technology in 2017 seems almost like a piss poor QoL issue to not just implement them in the game already.
Eliseus said:Some of you thinking not having an in game map in 2017 will give you the same experience that you had in 1999 is going to be disappointed.
I still know what it feels like to be lost. In real life, it's overrated. In a game, it can be fun. Sort of like fighting orcs. Very overrated IRL.
Cartographer skill - that may have been first introduced in Might and Magic 2. Hmmmmm ...early 1980s. And at the time it was a VERY nice improvement.
It isn't the 1980s any more. Making a game challenging does not *have* to be the same as making it frustrating and annoying.
If conistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds mine isn't all that large. I don't mind traveling being difficult the first time through. Slow (meaning hard to get to groups) the 10th and the 20th - no thanks. My view on maps is the same. No map the first time into a zone until you manually visit each area - fine. Fog of war makes perrfect sense. Some of us can get lost in our own bathtubs - don't make the 105th trip through a trivial area to get to a group into an ordeal. Maps definitely.
If the developers like old fashioned and (to use a loaded word) primitive they can certainly make the map primitive. No waypoints. No points of interest. No indication of where the hoe is. You know - the hoe that a farmer dropped in her field and was too lazy to get. So she asked the hero of the Realm upon whose diligent attention the fate of millions rested to go get it. And the hero, needing 5 copper pieces badly, obliged. Yes that hoe (hoe hoe hoe!)
Eliseus said:Some of you thinking not having an in game map in 2017 will give you the same experience that you had in 1999 is going to be disappointed.
Games without maps are still being made and released in 2017. This concept is only seen as outdated when it comes to MMOs.
Just implying that getting lost in Pantheon is going to be comparable to people playing EQ in 1999 and barely having experience using a keyboard is just silly. There are an insane number of differences between 1999 and today, and lacking maps in a modern MMORPG is not going to recreate that experience.
I'm sad more than anything else with the people clinging to these things. I'm sad because as amazing of a game as Pantheon will be, it's just not going to be classic EQ for you. Needlessly obfuscating base-level information from a game in 2017 is not going to have the same effect that it had when your average person didn't even own a household computer yet.
Liav said:Just implying that getting lost in Pantheon is going to be comparable to people playing EQ in 1999 and barely having experience using a keyboard is just silly. There are an insane number of differences between 1999 and today, and lacking maps in a modern MMORPG is not going to recreate that experience.
I'm sad more than anything else with the people clinging to these things. I'm sad because as amazing of a game as Pantheon will be, it's just not going to be classic EQ for you. Needlessly obfuscating base-level information from a game in 2017 is not going to have the same effect that it had when your average person didn't even own a household computer yet.
Stop with the whole "rose colored glasses" argument, its old and so far from the truth its insulting tbh
No one wants to recreate EQ, we completly understand the difference between 1999 and 2017 (but honestly, barely having keyboard experience? thats just silly)
All we are wanting is a game with the playstyle that we prefer, not wanting maps has nothing to do with trying to recapture 1999, its about making the game not so much handed to you....learn the zones, figure out the landmarks and how to move about the world...I can understand people wanting to have maps, tbh having maps, depending on how they do them, wont be a game breaker for me, just stop with the same worn out, stupid and totally wrong arguments of only not wanting maps because thats the way EQ did it. it goes way beyond that
shasta said: I love the old school EQ no map and traveling. Now with that comes death and corpse retrieval. I know that I used the /loc for when I knew death was imminent so I knew where to go for my body. I also used /loc to get around and to find certain landmarks. Will /loc be in pantheon and how about corpse summon?
Not going to lie, that's one of the few old school elements I don't look forward to. :p I would prefer to have a map as they'll all turn up sooner or later anyway. I would just like to see them implimented through a cartogropher type trade skill with maybe a fog of war until you explore it. Maybe after that the tradeskill can be used to sell maps in some creative craftable way. I'm all for old school design and challenge, but an in-game map isn't something I find myself against these days as I'm more on the challenge of gameplay, combat, knowing your class, and skillful planning. Not so much bumbling around trying to figure out if the group I'm trying to join went left at that tree or right at the river. :p
As for summoning corpses, from what I can tell at the moment it looks like there will be a corpse of some kind in the world and retrieving it will be beneficial. If that remains the case I can see some sort of necromancy corpse summoning spell being useful.
I really dont see a problem in implementing a world map when the only contra that came up so far is that people want to explore and experience the environment by themselves. If maps would be implemented people who dislike the idea could just not use them and have their own playstyle which is perfectly fine. People who want to use them could do just that. Saying former people would have a disadvantage is not really a point imo because like severeal people already said you can, and people will, just use an external map if they want.
I think having one pretty much empty world map at the beginning and extending it via fog of war (only the starting zone), looting map parts off of dead enemies, buying map parts,doing quests for map parts, trading map parts or just draw a quick sketch and connect those together until you eventually have the whole map together one day would be myfavourite solution.
Sevens said:Liav said:Just implying that getting lost in Pantheon is going to be comparable to people playing EQ in 1999 and barely having experience using a keyboard is just silly. There are an insane number of differences between 1999 and today, and lacking maps in a modern MMORPG is not going to recreate that experience.
I'm sad more than anything else with the people clinging to these things. I'm sad because as amazing of a game as Pantheon will be, it's just not going to be classic EQ for you. Needlessly obfuscating base-level information from a game in 2017 is not going to have the same effect that it had when your average person didn't even own a household computer yet.
Stop with the whole "rose colored glasses" argument, its old and so far from the truth its insulting tbh
No one wants to recreate EQ, we completly understand the difference between 1999 and 2017 (but honestly, barely having keyboard experience? thats just silly)
All we are wanting is a game with the playstyle that we prefer, not wanting maps has nothing to do with trying to recapture 1999, its about making the game not so much handed to you....learn the zones, figure out the landmarks and how to move about the world...I can understand people wanting to have maps, tbh having maps, depending on how they do them, wont be a game breaker for me, just stop with the same worn out, stupid and totally wrong arguments of only not wanting maps because thats the way EQ did it. it goes way beyond that
Except people have been using the "rose colored glasses" argument in their posts as to why they don't want maps.....................
I too miss the days of no in-game maps and even the cloth map of Ultima Online. I do like the idea of having a general continent map with landmarks and your rough location, but that is it. I'm not a fan of the minimap. Not a fan of even having group members magically showing up on the map so you can find them immediately.
Maybe I'm living in the past, but that is part of the reason so many of us have been hopping from MMO to MMO. I want that difficulty and lack of hand holding. Like others have said, the idea of looting partial overland maps is a nice idea, as long as that map isn't extremely detailed.
You aren't living in the past expecting a challenge. However, you are wrong that a map is equivalent to what people reference hand holding to in an MMORPG. Unless you for some reason think a map is equivalent to dumb downed encounters with indicators of everything you should do and golden lines that you follow everywhere to every single thing you do.
Eliseus said:Sevens said:Liav said:Just implying that getting lost in Pantheon is going to be comparable to people playing EQ in 1999 and barely having experience using a keyboard is just silly. There are an insane number of differences between 1999 and today, and lacking maps in a modern MMORPG is not going to recreate that experience.
I'm sad more than anything else with the people clinging to these things. I'm sad because as amazing of a game as Pantheon will be, it's just not going to be classic EQ for you. Needlessly obfuscating base-level information from a game in 2017 is not going to have the same effect that it had when your average person didn't even own a household computer yet.
Stop with the whole "rose colored glasses" argument, its old and so far from the truth its insulting tbh
No one wants to recreate EQ, we completly understand the difference between 1999 and 2017 (but honestly, barely having keyboard experience? thats just silly)
All we are wanting is a game with the playstyle that we prefer, not wanting maps has nothing to do with trying to recapture 1999, its about making the game not so much handed to you....learn the zones, figure out the landmarks and how to move about the world...I can understand people wanting to have maps, tbh having maps, depending on how they do them, wont be a game breaker for me, just stop with the same worn out, stupid and totally wrong arguments of only not wanting maps because thats the way EQ did it. it goes way beyond that
Except people have been using the "rose colored glasses" argument in their posts as to why they don't want maps.....................
Wrong, I have never once said anything about how it use to be...my whole premise is I want people to learn the zones, to learn the world and not just run from point a to point b on their map...........
Edit: disagree with me all you want, but that is not "rose colored glasses"