Sevens said:I really hope that PROTF isnt a game that pushes you to rush to end game (and the devs have stated that they dont want it to be)
Its the journey, not the destination thats important
Amen... this is possibly the biggest reason why I'm even looking into this MMO.
The devs have stated their design philosophy clearly enough when it comes to things like cash shops and how they want their game to be played. Playing the game should be fun, not the total grindy mess that most MMOs currently are. "It's the journey, not the destination thats important" is the biggest hook anybody could throw at me for a game to get me to try it.
Marilee said:I'm truly just curious when I ask you this, Coda. I'm not implying anything nor am I trying to be flippant, I just like to try to understand how people think.
If you paid monthly for SiriusXM radio in your car, would you feel you had to drive a certain amount in order to get your money's worth for the monthly fee? How about Amazon Prime? Would you feel pressured to buy things from Amazon in order to get your money's worth for Prime shipping?
Again, please understand I'm not being facetious or trying to get a rise or inventing forum drama. I'm just trying to understand how that mindset works. I hope my questions aren't taken wrong
As for Sevens--Pepsi is, in fact, the greatest thing ever created and I will fight you to the death for a bottle of that sweet, sweet nectar.
First and foremost, I'm totally fine with answering questions. Stuff like this interests me too.
"If you paid monthly for SiriusXM radio in your car, would you feel you had to drive a certain amount in order to get your money's worth for the monthly fee?"
Almost? I don't know, I don't drive enough to warrent getting a subscription for this anyway. If I did drive enough where I needed a radio subscription, then there wouldn't be pressure because I'm driving anyway.
"How about Amazon Prime? Would you feel pressured to buy things from Amazon in order to get your money's worth for Prime shipping?"
Yes. Well again, to be honest, I don't use Amazon enough to warrent it, but Amazon Prime is completely useless without actually using it's features... you are just wasting money if you are not at least taking advantage of what you got it for. I wouldn't be pressured to buy things from Amazon, but I would certainly feel like I would be wasting money if I didn't use their video streaming, ad-free music, Twitch prime, ect. If I wasn't using at least some of their features, if not most of them, I would feel like I'm wasting money. I had Amazon Prime for a short while, and I let my family use my account because it was more convenient, then when I didn't need to order anything anymore (for the Holidays) I stopped my subscription because I wasn't using it for anything except Twitch Prime.
Also, I'm a fan of Coke. Pepsi tastes great though. I typically alternate, I'm not inclined to stick to only one soda.
I had a free year of SiriusXM with my new car. It's coming due. I'm debating on whether or not I want to pay for it. I could still get alternative radio stations by using my wireless plan but having it at the ready in my car is so appealing. (Alt Nation!) So you can see how I'm dealing with the question of worth in my own situation.
As for Prime...I don't use the streaming, barely have used the music, but I've sure gotten my money's worth of two day shipping this year.
And I adore Cherry Coke but Pepsi will always be my first love.
Liav said:Coda said:According to the FAQ...
Which means, unless they havn't updated the FAQ, they are still deciding between traditional subscription or module subscription types of payment. I'd personally love a combination of both, but I'm sure others have different opinions, which is why I made this thread.
I'm guessing it will be both, which is what I prefer.
Pay a subscription, buy expansions.
Most likely yes. Our expansions are going to be significant and require two teams (live team and expansion team).
Marilee said:Aradune said:
Most likely yes. Our expansions are going to be significant and require two teams (live team and expansion team).
Thanks for the clarification, Aradune, but you forgot to mention your soda (or pop if that's your vernacular) preference!
Vanilla Coke/Pepsi... You can't find it anywhere in Canada anymore D: I have literally had dreams of finding some and drinkng it >.>
Marilee said:Aradune said:
Most likely yes. Our expansions are going to be significant and require two teams (live team and expansion team).
Thanks for the clarification, Aradune, but you forgot to mention your soda (or pop if that's your vernacular) preference!
lol. Real Sugar Dr. Pepper, of course :)
Liav said:Never thought I'd see the day when someone would advocate for pay to win on the Pantheon forums.
Damn.
NO i dont like cash shops, or gold sellers, however they go hand and hand now a days.
I would rather we go back to 1999 before TM started to sell characters online and ban the whole thing... then we can farm normally for the items.
What i was saying if they found out a clear, clean non bother some system that game devs could adapt that clearly made money to keep funding large projects like this i would be ok with it.
I clearly am on your guys side of the table here, but what harm is it if the game devs put up furniture for small prices so you can buy banners for your walls. guild house i mean..
You want that crafted too?
Just ideas is all.
Zorkon said:Sevens said:I love the sub model, with buyable xpacs
as long as there is NO cash shop, I know VRI has said there will be none but if revenue falls short I know its always an options in the back of their minds
Well said Sevens, thank you.
@Crazzie I read through Most of your post trying to rationalize and justify why a cash shop is good, then just skimmed the rest looking for anything that would address what Sevens point out and you simply ignore these core problems with a cash shop. Pantheon is a group of people that want to PLAY a game for the items and skills our charrictors will aquire not just purchase them. Any effort, any minute spent by the development team to make any item for a cash shop takes away from the game itself.
To say that a cash shop can be added without hurting game play is extremely short sighted. Luckily Brad has confirmed numerous times there will be no cash shop.
I did not ignore sevens? he did not give any core problem to rationalize with. You have to explain much more then that about being short sighted.
I dont think i am short sighted, i think i have explained why some cash shop items can benifit the game. Such as Shirts, Maps, Game banners, or simple items for decorations of guild halls.
I for one would say no to anything that caused p2w stuff.
Figure the math out, core of 4000 players, x 20 servers, + over head at some point you find out that this model doesnt work.
Just saying, dont think i am not with you guys on P2W stuff because i am, i hate gold sellers and i hate stupid games like Heros, and Generals, and most of all stronghold kingdoms (10 grand i saw a guy spend in 1 month) no lie.
Absolutely no on any form of a cash shop. All items should be earned in game though playing the game normally. Once any type of cash shop is stated its just a matter of time before the greed sets in and destroys the game.
Honestly if you don't have the time to play the game, or you concerned about 15sh bucks a month making you feel rushed then this is not the game for you.
This idea of beating the gold farmers at their own game by setting up a cash shop is flawed. While it is true Game company's can always under cut the prices of gold farmers then end result is the same. A pay to win game, this includes cosmetics since your appearance is part of playing the game, if a new player sees a great looking outfit knowing it has to be earned it encourages him to work for it, once it can be bought its pay to win. The better option is to eliminate the need for gold farmers.
For example, many MMO’s have opted for harvest nodes for collecting resources as a means to slow progression for crafters. This is tedous and boring making a grindy feel to it.
This only serves to create a market for farmers because bots don't mind running in circles for endless hours, and it also eliminated any social aspect between crafters.
However when I played horizons they had a different approach, instead of nodes there was mining areas where crafters could meet and farm resources while socializing with each other. Something as simple as that makes harvesting go from dull isolation fearing the sight of another crafter who could steal your node, to a great way to meet other crafters and contacts for supplies since there were plenty of nodes in one spot.
Mush less of a temptation to buy if the need/tedium is eliminated. Make it fun and they will play, Make it boring and they will pay.
No cash shops please, not even for cosmetic items. If you want something that looks super cool, go out, explore, and earn it. That type of stuff DOES effect gameplay, and it opens the door to a very dark room. Aside from that, the devs have stated that it's going to be subscription based with the first ten or so levels being free.
No cash shops, period. Also, the last stream said no appearance items, anyway. So no need for cash shop.
Lastly, no one is ever FORCED to rush to end game. It's a choice.
You want to stop gold sellers, ostracize anyone one that buys from them. Make sure it is known as unacceptable as a community.
Beefcake said:No cash shops, period. Also, the last stream said no appearance items, anyway. So no need for cash shop.
Lastly, no one is ever FORCED to rush to end game. It's a choice.
You want to stop gold sellers, ostracize anyone one that buys from them. Make sure it is known as unacceptable as a community.
Emphasis mine: couldnt agree more. I have seen to many people turn a blind eye because its a friend doing it, or a guildie. If gold buyers didnt exist there would be no gold sellers. If you catch the seller, ban his damn buyers too
Coda said:Here is the thing about a pure Subscription based system... which is what you guys are suggesting (and this may just be me, but it's something I may as well bring up).
First, let me define a pure subscription based system: Buy game, Buy expansions, Pay for Subscription. Simply put, it's what WoW does. It's clean, it does it's job, ect. I love this system.
My problem with this system is that I feel rushed to complete game content. If I'm spending x$ per month, I feel obligated to get as much as I can out of my dollar to making my character as strong as possible, reaching endgame the fastest, ect. I feel less inclined to explore and really feel the world. I know the team behind Pantheon has already discussed wanting to make the world as full as possible... and want to make it worth exploring... this is why I bring this up.
I'm not saying make the game free to play. Again, that ruins games.
But I would love it if they looked into making sections of the game purchasable indefinitely. I feel much better exploring the world knowing that I spent 30+ dollars unlocking that section of the world forever, and not pressured knowing that I'm 'wasting time' on my 10$ a month subscription. This also lets people with sporadic freetime not feel forced to play to minmax their subscription.
What I suggest is this, make the game have 2 options of purchasing game content.
- Pay for game, pay for expansions, pay for subscription (x$/month).
- Pay for game, pay for expansions, pay for modules of the world permanently (1 time payment of X but more expensive than subscription immediately)
I would gladly play more money knowing I'm not wasting time on a subscription, than paying a subcription... but I will pay for a subscription if that's the only option.
Its $10 or $15 a month. Do you feel feel rushed to view the ENTIRE Internet because you have to pay month for access? Do you feel rushed to watch every TV show possible because you have to pay cable monthy?
If you are not getting $15 worth on entertainment out of Pantheon in a couple days, might want to see how much other entertainment cost.
Pantheon is not supposed to be about a rush to get power. It's an open world. The journey is the entertainment. Max level is just another part of the enjoyment.
Honestly, I still feel like that is a personal decision on your part. I wold much rather pay $15 a month to enjoy a game than rush through it and be back to scrambling for a new game. It's really not that much this day in age. I would even be okay with $20, as long as it meant no cash shops.
Beefcake said:Coda said:Here is the thing about a pure Subscription based system... which is what you guys are suggesting (and this may just be me, but it's something I may as well bring up).
First, let me define a pure subscription based system: Buy game, Buy expansions, Pay for Subscription. Simply put, it's what WoW does. It's clean, it does it's job, ect. I love this system.
My problem with this system is that I feel rushed to complete game content. If I'm spending x$ per month, I feel obligated to get as much as I can out of my dollar to making my character as strong as possible, reaching endgame the fastest, ect. I feel less inclined to explore and really feel the world. I know the team behind Pantheon has already discussed wanting to make the world as full as possible... and want to make it worth exploring... this is why I bring this up.
I'm not saying make the game free to play. Again, that ruins games.
But I would love it if they looked into making sections of the game purchasable indefinitely. I feel much better exploring the world knowing that I spent 30+ dollars unlocking that section of the world forever, and not pressured knowing that I'm 'wasting time' on my 10$ a month subscription. This also lets people with sporadic freetime not feel forced to play to minmax their subscription.
What I suggest is this, make the game have 2 options of purchasing game content.
- Pay for game, pay for expansions, pay for subscription (x$/month).
- Pay for game, pay for expansions, pay for modules of the world permanently (1 time payment of X but more expensive than subscription immediately)
I would gladly play more money knowing I'm not wasting time on a subscription, than paying a subcription... but I will pay for a subscription if that's the only option.
Its $10 or $15 a month. Do you feel feel rushed to view the ENTIRE Internet because you have to pay month for access? Do you feel rushed to watch every TV show possible because you have to pay cable monthy?
If you are not getting $15 worth on entertainment out of Pantheon in a couple days, might want to see how much other entertainment cost.
Pantheon is not supposed to be about a rush to get power. It's an open world. The journey is the entertainment. Max level is just another part of the enjoyment.
@ Crazzies
Wow this quoting stuff is quite confusing on this site, my apologies Crazzies, I may have misquoted Sevens at the time and you may not have responded to the message of his I was referring to. Let me try to be more clear what I was trying to relay. First here is the post Sevins made that I was talking about..
Sevens said:Dont care about plat farmers abusing the cash shop, dont care about how apperance Items can be turned off so I cant see them...Cant care for ANY reason or excuse anyone can bring up to justify a cash shop..It hurts the game, period. You want items for your house? Put in recipies so carpenters can make them. You want fancy dress clothes for the kings big ball, put in a pattern so the tailors can make them. Anything ever added to the game should be given to the PLAYERS to create and not stuck in the shop to double dip on a sub based game. No, cash shops are in no way shape or form good, they are soul sucking, game killing worthless cash grabs and nothing more.
And the core problems I'm referring to are the changes in the Devs positions of a game from an ALL SUB game with no cash shop to a game attempting to try to pay for itself (or even help) with a cash shop, specifically...
"Dont care about plat farmers abusing the cash shop"
"dont care about how apperance Items can be turned off so I cant see them"
"Cant care for ANY reason or excuse anyone can bring up to justify a cash shop"
" they are soul sucking, game killing worthless cash grabs and nothing more"
The problem with a cash shop is not PTW, or any of the other items most people try to "find solutions" for. I could care less if player X pays to win, Instant Level 50 for $25 bucks, go for it! Mega sword for Player Y for $15, I couldn't care less! Liberache Hat or Mount for $20... well wait, no that's going to far, please god not the fluffy Liberace boa crap) I personally prefer to play the game, and I'm not racing any of those people to "end game" so I couldn't care less if they move fast or mess up the economy .
The CORE problem (as i see it) is taking this "Creative Development Team" that is suppose to be building me a FUN game WORTHY of my subscription money and making them find/make ways to pay for the game. Making things that are not actually content.
Paying for Pantheon is Brads job period, Not the Creative Game Designers, Lore Makers, Artist, Modelers, Programmers, etc.. their job is to MAKE FUN. If they do their job well, then Brad's job is easy Subscription of $15 a month from hundreds of thousands of players. ANYTHING.. ANYTHING (cash shop) that takes away from them "Creating Beauty and FUN" is damaging to the game, Then Brad will have trouble making it pay for itself.
Cash Shop's are only good for one thing , to save Bad Games!
Here is some reading material on it. For my subscription dollars I expect 100% Developer Concentration on building me a GREAT game. I think this theory to be sound, I think this Theory to be the key to longevity, I also think this is at least close to what the Pantheon Dev team believes. (if I was a painter I wouldn't want to be required to paint a Price tag on all my art work)
Monetization and the Death of Games
Discussion / Cash shop theory.
I don't mind the 'buy game, pay sub, and buy xpacs' model. But I also wouldn't mind a different model such as 'buy game, pay a higher monthly sub fee, and get xpacs/updates for free'. I'd be cool with buying the game for whatever and then paying $20 a month, maybe even $25 a month if I knew I was never going to have to pay for an expansion. This way, the devs don't have to worry about making sure an expansion pack is worth the ticket price because there is no ticket price. Then they can update the game as much as they want and as little or as big as they want. With a model like this they could easily update the game 6 times in one year with 5 smallish updates and 1 major update and not have to worry about 1 gigantic expac every year or 2. Just food for thought.
Cash shops are a tricky slippery slope. I don't want cash shops for one reason. There are many reasons out there, because you should earn the items in game if you want to have them, because paying for in game items via a cash shop is double dipping off the subscription fee, so on and so forth. I simply don't want them because it intrudes on the virtual world I'm enjoying. I want Pantheon to return me to those virtual worlds I got lost in for so many hours such as EQ did and VG. And if I see someone with an item that they got from outside of this world it will jar my experience. I don't know any other way to explain it. I understand the want for VRi to make money, and the desire to thwart gold sellers but buying in game items from a cash shop just doesn't sit well with me and there are many reasons why it's a bad idea.
Crazzie said:Liav said:Never thought I'd see the day when someone would advocate for pay to win on the Pantheon forums.
Damn.
NO i dont like cash shops, or gold sellers, however they go hand and hand now a days.
I would rather we go back to 1999 before TM started to sell characters online and ban the whole thing... then we can farm normally for the items.
What i was saying if they found out a clear, clean non bother some system that game devs could adapt that clearly made money to keep funding large projects like this i would be ok with it.
I clearly am on your guys side of the table here, but what harm is it if the game devs put up furniture for small prices so you can buy banners for your walls. guild house i mean..
You want that crafted too?
Just ideas is all.
I tend to side with this, however there is an important asterisk here. There is nothing more un-immersive than a cash shop button in the corner of your screen that opens up a shop throwing junk in your face in a game that is supposed to immerse you in a fantasy world. Pay to win or not, cosmetic or not, it is extremely unattractive and only serves as a constant reminder that you are indeed playing a game, not living in a virtual world.
OK lets come off fresh here...
First of all it has been already stated no..In pantheon so those that cant read, please do so. NO cash shops...
This is a discussion only, Stop thinking people have a sway vote here.
Second off, this crowd is mostly made up of gamers... Each has a right to hate, cash shops or anything that goes with it in 2016. We all have seen the pro's and cons of cash shops in different games.
Mostly your afraid to do anything in 2016 when it comes to purchasing a game.
1. Pre alpha - Game cancels, development is so slow, people are afraid to purchase because of this,.
2. Cash shops in NA..... it scares people, it has proven to ruin games.
3. Open it up in China/Russia/Europe = Cash shops a must, i guess.
Here in NA we hate cash shops and have been hit by them since 2003 onward. It started to happen when gold sellers started in on the market.
and here in NA we are taxed to death, so extra moneys dont happen very easily.
We all just would like to be left alone in our games, pay for subs, pay for expacs, and pay for any extras needed.
But there comes a time in all games history extra funding has to be met to continue on with "18 years of life"
which is incredible to begin with, but they did it. So has wow (but they have the subscribers)
Did they ever introduce cash shops in WOW?
Rallyd said:I tend to side with this, however there is an important asterisk here. There is nothing more un-immersive than a cash shop button in the corner of your screen that opens up a shop throwing junk in your face in a game that is supposed to immerse you in a fantasy world. Pay to win or not, cosmetic or not, it is extremely unattractive and only serves as a constant reminder that you are indeed playing a game, not living in a virtual world.
OH very good, you did hit that on the nail head.
That cash shop button. Did you all remember when it was first introduced in EQ? -Remember EQ was one of the first NA models we followed, that introduced extra sales.
What was worse? the gold symbol, or the pop up of play for free..... subscribe now popups? and the announcement UI's
I couldnt stand any of them. The marketplace logo under Options i was ok with, but not those popups or $$ all over the UI.
If i wanted to purchase a shirt with EQ, a Map of the world, or any stupid thing i was warned of marketplace 900 times in the UI.
I think is that where the fear first started?
Crazzie said:Did they ever introduce cash shops in WOW?
Yes. Both on the website and in-game.
It's mostly cosmetic items like pets, mounts, and appearance altering items. But you can also buy services like name changes, server transfers, and instant level100 "boost". Worse, you can buy a WoW taken which is resellable in the auction house and when consumed provides 30 days of game time. So people can on the one hand convert real cash into game cash thru the transaction, and on the other they have incentive to farm gold in order to buy the tokens and play WoW for free.
Crazzie said:OK lets come off fresh here...
First of all it has been already stated no..In pantheon so those that cant read, please do so. NO cash shops...
This is a discussion only, Stop thinking people have a sway vote here.
Second off, this crowd is mostly made up of gamers... Each has a right to hate, cash shops or anything that goes with it in 2016. We all have seen the pro's and cons of cash shops in different games.
Mostly your afraid to do anything in 2016 when it comes to purchasing a game.
1. Pre alpha - Game cancels, development is so slow, people are afraid to purchase because of this,.
2. Cash shops in NA..... it scares people, it has proven to ruin games.
3. Open it up in China/Russia/Europe = Cash shops a must, i guess.
Here in NA we hate cash shops and have been hit by them since 2003 onward. It started to happen when gold sellers started in on the market.
and here in NA we are taxed to death, so extra moneys dont happen very easily.
We all just would like to be left alone in our games, pay for subs, pay for expacs, and pay for any extras needed.
But there comes a time in all games history extra funding has to be met to continue on with "18 years of life"
which is incredible to begin with, but they did it. So has wow (but they have the subscribers)
Did they ever introduce cash shops in WOW?
1. I’m not afraid of the game being cancled, nor do I care how long its taking.
2. Cash shops are fine for some games, im fine with it in elite dangerous, but for MMOs, especialy one looking to bring back the good old days, it simple dosent fit.
3. Cultures are differnt, imagine that.
Money is not the issue, nor are “our” taxes. Either pay your sub and enjoy the game or dont and move along. This topic serves to only agravate the player base who have come here for the purpose of returing to a diffrent style of MMO, one that has been lost in current times. If your promse me a zebra and sell me a horse ill be pissed.
Did they ever introduce cash shops in WOW?
Yes, yes they did.
https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/game/wow
Feyshtey said:Crazzie said:Did they ever introduce cash shops in WOW?
Yes. Both on the website and in-game.
It's mostly cosmetic items like pets, mounts, and appearance altering items. But you can also buy services like name changes, server transfers, and instant level100 "boost". Worse, you can buy a WoW taken which is resellable in the auction house and when consumed provides 30 days of game time. So people can on the one hand convert real cash into game cash thru the transaction, and on the other they have incentive to farm gold in order to buy the tokens and play WoW for free.
I'd like to blame the level 100 boost for ruining development on the rest of the game. I like it when developers make content for all levels of content, not just max level. Right now WoW is just a push to max level, then grind your super special weapon thing for the rest of eternity.
Also the WoW token is arguably a good idea if the developer can't control gold selling. It lets Blizzard control the gold value in their game, screwing the gold buyers. The problem is that it's the purest form of P2W. People purchase like 3-4 tokens and can pretty much buy anything on any server.
Again, Cash Shops are a money grab. Blizzard probably did not need to add a Cash Shop, but they did. They caved into the money.
Sevens said:Crazzie said:Sevens said:I love the sub model, with buyable xpacs
as long as there is NO cash shop, I know VRI has said there will be none but if revenue falls short I know its always an options in the back of their minds
Well cash shops are a great thing, in many ways. If you restrict the user from exploiting the system.
So if i added real life money to my account and wanted to purchase non P2W items within the game to deck out my in game house, guild hall, or even basic things i could.
It changes the character looks, without effecting the game play at all, and still adds extra revenue to the company.
You could even convert left over cash in your account to in game currency (up to a certain amount) without causing ill effect to the ecomony. Such items, etc... that are on normal traders only.
Items in the auction houses, for sale that are dropped looted item can not be purchased for real life money, in any form.
We are speaking of purely cosmetic purchases to an extent.
Popups of real life currency is never seen by the client, it is internal links only and never spammed within the UI to discourage users.
Keeping the in game currency valued high, and the out of game currency low. So that gold sellers can not make more then $1.00 from any method out of the game trade. It is much cheaper to purchase in game by the company.
If you also make gold non traded, only within your account works. If you purchase items, you can not trade them to another character.
If you dont put in cash shops we have these systems that pop up from years of experience watching them.
1. Trading character accounts for cash.
2. Items on Auction house being sold in form outside of the game. Traded to other accounts when purchased.
3. IN game currency up for sale at a discount.
Making things non trade able in the gold department works, the only way to purchase these items is directly within the auction house. If you cant afford the gold in game currency, open up your wallet and purchase this time for xx cents. The user gets the requested gold in game currency with a discount given to the auction house, and the VR company gets a small amount extra.
How does this grief you if you restrict the out of game gold sellers early on?
Remember they are making the money, the company does not.
@sevens, it is not as thought out as i would like it to be. It is all over the place, because it is a system that would have to be thought out much deeper.
- Mainly restricting in game currency from being traded, and you have the ability to purchase ... small amounts of in game currency for real life money up to so many transactions. Items are not able to be traded or passed directly to others, but the ability to trade within your own account unrestricted.
It just boils down to, how can you stop the gold sellers, farmers etc.. but still keeping the internal money within the game. There is many ways these guys handle out of game making. Restrict Pantheon, but still allow for real life $ to be used without causing the economy any issues or have it purchase a difference currency to be able to be used within the auction house. The seller of the items still gets the Gold, the game still gets the cash, and the auction house robs you of a fee.
Items can not be traded once sold to the person, only internally unrestricted.
Auction house items, up for sale by the user will be allowed to be searched by player, and accounted for so if we have 1 lvl 1 character selling items that are valued at 1000k coins, it never happens only internally. Never will out of game currency be traded for in game currency, it is much cheaper to purchase in game currency.
There is a way to restrict and keep cash within the game. It is a very in depth system that has to be thought out.
Dont care about plat farmers abusing the cash shop, dont care about how apperance Items can be turned off so I cant see them...Cant care for ANY reason or excuse anyone can bring up to justify a cash shop..It hurts the game, period. You want items for your house? Put in recipies so carpenters can make them. You want fancy dress clothes for the kings big ball, put in a pattern so the tailors can make them. Anything ever added to the game should be given to the PLAYERS to create and not stuck in the shop to double dip on a sub based game. No, cash shops are in no way shape or form good, they are soul sucking, game killing worthless cash grabs and nothing more.
Agree with Sevens totally.