philo said:Gnog said:philo said:As much as most of us don't want a cash shop in any form. I want to remind everyone of VRs stance:Â
zewtastic said:I love this idea, especially as a cash shop option.
As long as a tight control is put on naming. meaning only lists you are allowed to choose from or submit your name for validation.
Rattenmann said:
Sorry to burst your bubble,... but  we will have no cash shop.
/sarcasm on
sad, isn't it?
/sarcasm off
Kilsin said:
There is a possibility for a cash shop/game store mate, it just would never sell any items that gave an advantage over another player and would not stock any pay to win items, we may, for extra revenue, sell fluff lore friendly items, vanity items, rename vouchers etc. but we have no intention of ruining our game, its economy or any crafting/adventuring spheres by selling advantages to anyone, if we even decide to have a cash shop/store.
I just wanted to clear that up, we are completely against any advantages but are open for suggestions to sell lore friendly fluff/cosmetic items for extra revenue, as Zew said, but we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come, man! :)There may be cash shop for things like lore items, rename vouchers etc.
I'm leery that any cash shop always has the tendancy to creep into having the types of items that are in that gray area. Like potions or anything similar...or, at what point does having a certain color of armor become more optimal in pvp depending on your location? Very minor thing that creep into the grey area that might give one player an advantage, no matter how small, if you pay extra money.
Are you sure that was Kilsin's/VR's most recent post on the topic of cash shops? I was under the impression that VR had taken a more recent position that more definitively ruled out cash shops, even for 'fluff' items.
I'm not sure. That is a quote from 2016. Maybe someone can find a more recent stance on the subject...if there is one? Or maybe Kils can correct us, but that is the only official stance I remember. Sure they have always talked about not being "pay to win", but that doesn't address cash shops for other things. The above statement addresses that. I'd like to be wrong... :)
Here is a quote from Kilsin in 2015:
"This developer website is a means to fund the game but we are taking a serious look into these items and will remove/restrict anything we deem to be an advantage.
So far there is only boots and a bag extender, the boots will either be removed or given no performance enhancing stats and the bag extender will most likely be able to be obtained in game via quests, drops etc.
The Wand of illusions is fluff and gives no advantage at all.
This store is to help fund the game, nothing more, once the game has launched or we get investors, the store will most likely be removed or only contain Pantheon/VRI Merchandise but we will not sell anything to trivialise the game in any way. It goes against everything we stand for and what Pantheon stands for as a spiritual successor to EQ and VG."
Looking at the last part ... I would imagine that a kronos type system will not be available in Pantheon because it would absolutely trivialize the game. As far as cosmetic or fluff stuff goes ... here is a more recent post:
"So you can see it yourself and enjoy your character the way you like, why is there a need to force your characters looks on everyone else? You may think you have great taste but to someone else, it is immersion breaking and hurting their eyes while they try and enjoy the game their way.
Not everyone has the same tastes, so it is best if we provide an option to toggle the appearance on/off but keeping in mind we have made it very clear that cosmetic items will be earned in-game, and within our games lore and not easily available to everyone, so it is best to wait and see what we have in store before comparing it to other games and instantly thinking ours will be the same, we know it isn;t everyone's cup of tea and we won't be flooding our game with it as our normal gear will be something to be proud of and be something you will want to show off, not cover up. ;)"
Edit..nm I was looking at the quote from 2015
On review though:
Not everyone has the same tastes, so it is best if we provide an option to toggle the appearance on/off but keeping in mind we have made it very clear that cosmetic items will be earned in-game, and within our games lore and not easily available to everyone, so it is best to wait and see what we have in store before comparing it to other games and instantly thinking ours will be the same, we know it isn;t everyone's cup of tea and we won't be flooding our game with it as our normal gear will be something to be proud of and be something you will want to show off, not cover up. ;)"
That doesn't specifically exclude cash shops. Sure cosmetic items will be earned in game. That doesn't mean that some won't be available in a cash shop type setting. That quote is pretty vague and doesn't specifically address cah shops.
The quote from 2016 addresses cash shops specifically saying that vanity and other similar types of items could be included in a cash shop. It even goes on to say:
Kilsin said: ...we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come, man! :)
So what is the solution? 15$/month for a year subscription and 25/month if subscribed month to month? Is that enough to keep the bills paid? It does come down to a numbers game/salaries/fees etc.
philo said:I'm not sure. That is a quote from 2016. Maybe someone can find a more recent stance on the subject...if there is one? Or maybe Kils can correct us, but that is the only official stance I remember. Sure they have always talked about not being "pay to win", but that doesn't address cash shops for other things. The above statement addresses that. I'd like to be wrong... :)
Shortened that quote because it was getting way too big. lol Just as an addition to that quote from Kilsin, he added this the next day.
Kilsin said:I must admit I /facepalmed when I saw the title of this thread but was pleasantly surprised by the maturity shown compared to what I expected to see with so many replies lol :)
My post yesterday was playing it safe, in case we need sell merchandise/fluff/cosmetic items later on down the track (I'm talking 5-10-15 years down the track...) when the honeymoon period wears off and subscription numbers drop to keep the revenue coming in and the game supported.
I should have explained it better as I did not anticipate this thread being created or my post being referred too but to clear it up, we still maintain the stance of no cash shop and will continue that stance through launch and into the future until there may be a time where we need to bring in extra revenue to support the game, if that time ever comes around it will be a priority of mine to speak to the community first to get feedback on what you may wish to see in the store but this is something that may happen 5-10 years from now, or it may not happen at all, so definitely not worth worrying about at this point in time, it was merely an option to consider later on in the games "end years". :)
Nothing too far outside the norm there. There may be the usual microtransation items like name changes, server transfers, and the occassional fluff item, but nothing like the starter gear packs and such barring any drastic changes.
philo said:Edit..nm I was looking at the quote from 2015
On review though:
Not everyone has the same tastes, so it is best if we provide an option to toggle the appearance on/off but keeping in mind we have made it very clear that cosmetic items will be earned in-game, and within our games lore and not easily available to everyone, so it is best to wait and see what we have in store before comparing it to other games and instantly thinking ours will be the same, we know it isn;t everyone's cup of tea and we won't be flooding our game with it as our normal gear will be something to be proud of and be something you will want to show off, not cover up. ;)"
That doesn't specifically exclude cash shops. Sure cosmetic items will be earned in game. That doesn't mean that some won't be available in a cash shop type setting. That quote is pretty vague and doesn't specifically address cah shops.
The quote from 2016 addresses cash shops specifically saying that vanity and other similar types of items could be included in a cash shop. It even goes on to say:
Kilsin said: ...we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come, man! :)
So what is the solution? 15$/month for a year subscription and 25/month if subscribed month to month? Is that enough to keep the bills paid? It does come down to a numbers game/salaries/fees etc.
We won't know for sure until we launch the game and see how it sells and how many people remain subscribed after the first 6-12 months, so my replies are vague because I just don't know man, I am just trying to give you folks as much info as I can without committing to something that may be incorrect or say no to something that we may need to implement down the track.
I can say that we don't want to sell anything that gives an advantage to one player over another, so no stat gear, fast mounts etc. So without knowing the answer just yet, I can say it is our plan to avoid those things if possible but ultimately the success of the game and the growth of the company is important to us so we can not only support Pantheon for many years to come but expand the team and create other games to add to our companies portfolio.
We're not looking to be a one-hit wonder here, we are in it for the long term and we want our community to come along for the ride, so you folks are always in our thoughts when making these decisions :)
Durp said:What exactly is an "item renaming voucher"?
Exactly what is says man, you can rename an item but it will most likely only be visible to the owner of the item to stop any silly or offensive name getting through the profanity filter.
So, I could rename one of my Daggers "The Dream Crusher" and run around stabbing things but only I would see its name, everyone else would see the Terminus name for it depending on where it dropped, what it was made of and what tier item it was or from a named etc.
Kilsin said:Durp said:What exactly is an "item renaming voucher"?
Exactly what is says man, you can rename an item but it will most likely only be visible to the owner of the item to stop any silly or offensive name getting through the profanity filter.
So, I could rename one of my Daggers "The Dream Crusher" and run around stabbing things but only I would see its name, everyone else would see the Terminus name for it depending on where it dropped, what it was made of and what tier item it was or from a named etc.
This actually sounds great, i cant wait to name every item i have "Kilsin's Dream Crusher"
Kilsin said:philo said:Edit..nm I was looking at the quote from 2015
On review though:
Not everyone has the same tastes, so it is best if we provide an option to toggle the appearance on/off but keeping in mind we have made it very clear that cosmetic items will be earned in-game, and within our games lore and not easily available to everyone, so it is best to wait and see what we have in store before comparing it to other games and instantly thinking ours will be the same, we know it isn;t everyone's cup of tea and we won't be flooding our game with it as our normal gear will be something to be proud of and be something you will want to show off, not cover up. ;)"
That doesn't specifically exclude cash shops. Sure cosmetic items will be earned in game. That doesn't mean that some won't be available in a cash shop type setting. That quote is pretty vague and doesn't specifically address cah shops.
The quote from 2016 addresses cash shops specifically saying that vanity and other similar types of items could be included in a cash shop. It even goes on to say:
Kilsin said: ...we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come, man! :)
So what is the solution? 15$/month for a year subscription and 25/month if subscribed month to month? Is that enough to keep the bills paid? It does come down to a numbers game/salaries/fees etc.
We won't know for sure until we launch the game and see how it sells and how many people remain subscribed after the first 6-12 months, so my replies are vague because I just don't know man, I am just trying to give you folks as much info as I can without committing to something that may be incorrect or say no to something that we may need to implement down the track.
I can say that we don't want to sell anything that gives an advantage to one player over another, so no stat gear, fast mounts etc. So without knowing the answer just yet, I can say it is our plan to avoid those things if possible but ultimately the success of the game and the growth of the company is important to us so we can not only support Pantheon for many years to come but expand the team and create other games to add to our companies portfolio.
We're not looking to be a one-hit wonder here, we are in it for the long term and we want our community to come along for the ride, so you folks are always in our thoughts when making these decisions :)
Does VR have a stance on Kronos? You mentioned we won't be able to (that's the plan, but is subject to change) purchase stat gear or faster mounts, etc. If kronos is implemented wouldn't that just be a work around for the same things? Players could just buy 10 kronos, sell them for a ton of plat and then buy gear, fast mounts, or anything else they could desire. I know that VR has been very clear that they won't allow people to purchase anything that could trivialize the game but there seems to be a disconnect with a lot of players in what that means. I understand that kronos type systems can help combat illegal RMT but in the process I feel it opens up legal P2W and I really hope VR steers away from this path for as long as possible.
Gnog said:That's informative, so thanks for posting it, although the top post in the thread you linked is literally the late-night ramblings of a drunk person, according to the poster him/herself. :) But, and correct me if I'm wrong, none of this is really an argument to stay at $15 for a new title released in 2017, unless you're saying the norm is evidence that the market will not bear a higher price, which isn't confirmable by the status quo. I would also expect there could be a premium over $15 because there will not be microtransactions to provide additional income.
I think the best argument to stay at $15 is due to the market. We've been neck deep in free to play gaming for a while now so it's something people more often expect and in the past there has been large push against monthly sub based games. People don't know how often they will get to play month to month and sometimes feel like it wasn't worth it, some have been burned in the past by lack of content/updates/polish for what they are paying for, others want to know if they like a game before they spend money on it and trials just don't get to the meat, and in the past more than now it was because players tend to only be willing to subscribe to one game at a time.
I feel that the biggest issue with jumping to $20 is that in our modern era people have too many subscriptions draining them. Netflix, Hulu, HBO Go, Dollar Shave Club, Spotify, Loot Crate, their internet/housing/utility/cell phone/insurance bills, Audible, and a million other possible things. For one person sure an extra $15 doesn't seem like too much of a burden but somehow $20 seems like so much more. Now figure it's a couple or even a family of 3 who all want to play, now you'd be looking at $40-$60 a month which for some people is a big difference (or even room to keep/add some other monthly service for some) next to $30-45 a month.
>I can say that we don't want to sell anything that gives an advantage to one player over another, so no stat gear, fast mounts etc. So without knowing the answer just yet, I can say it is our plan to avoid those things if possible but ultimately the success of the game and the growth of the company is important to us so we can not only support Pantheon for many years to come but expand the team and create other games to add to our companies portfolio. <
Perhaps none of us wants a store. None of us wants Pantheon to fail, either.
If you need to have a store, in-game or on your websites, cosmetic (not combat) pets tend to sell well in MMOs and cannot possibly be viewed as pay-to win. Likewise cosmetic outfits but those have a bit more downside in that they take away the incentive to quest and explore and raid to get impressive looking gear if someone else can just *buy* comparable looking gear. Cosmetic horses much the same as cosmetic outfits (including the negatives) though if you get exotic many of us are out-of-here. As in riding pandas <.
But any in-game store even the most innocuous will drive some of us away and make many more of us very uncomfortable. This is one of the things we hope to escape with any subscription based game and Pantheon in particular. You know this, of course, so any store will be taken as a measure of desperation. A website store selling in-game items (as distinct from server transfers, changes of appearance, etc.) won't be viewed quite as negatively but will be viewed negatively. You know this too.
How about a webstore that sells actual objects (probably later down the road after release) Cloth maps, bobble head dolls of the Devs or Raid monsters, bumper stickers, coffee mugs, limited edition art..and so on. This store would have nothing to do with anything ingame, perhaps Pantheon comic books, and anything else that people like to collect.
We had a long thread about this on this site but I guess it got archived. And I was surprised and glad to see that this team plans on doing well enough with Pantheon, to expand into creating more games afterwards. Absolutely! :) Those "bus stop"posters were fabulous, could see those for sale in a webstore too. :) store like that doesn't give any ingame advantages, it does giving bragging rights however. :)
Cana
I totally agree, Cana, but I think the sale of swag could start now. Some stuff would be trivial to make available what with the amount of concept art that's already out there. Nor would VR have to necessarily deal with production and shipping. There are lots of online swag vendors that let you sell art, logoware, etc...
An advanced store with action figures, etc... could come later and VR might want to eventually internalize the entire store so they're getting a larger percentage of the profit, but to start why not start small and start now?
Celandor said:I totally agree, Cana, but I think the sale of swag could start now. Some stuff would be trivial to make available what with the amount of concept art that's already out there. Nor would VR have to necessarily deal with production and shipping. There are lots of online swag vendors that let you sell art, logoware, etc...
An advanced store with action figures, etc... could come later and VR might want to eventually internalize the entire store so they're getting a larger percentage of the profit, but to start why not start small and start now?
I wish, but probably the reality is that the funding needs to go toward the game development right now. :) Also means hiring folks to create those objects, screen printing becomes cheaper if done in bulk, (for t-shirts and hoodies..and all the different sizes needed.) I tried my hand at that for a short bit, had designed a dragon out of my head, sold a few, but had leftovers. But then again I didn't have anyone marketting for me..or a webstore, just word of mouth. :)
Porygon said:Kilsin said:Durp said:What exactly is an "item renaming voucher"?
Exactly what is says man, you can rename an item but it will most likely only be visible to the owner of the item to stop any silly or offensive name getting through the profanity filter.
So, I could rename one of my Daggers "The Dream Crusher" and run around stabbing things but only I would see its name, everyone else would see the Terminus name for it depending on where it dropped, what it was made of and what tier item it was or from a named etc.
This actually sounds great, i cant wait to name every item i have "Kilsin's Dream Crusher"
Lol, I should mention that I have slipped the devs a secret note under their virtual desks to code that title to me only and if anyone else uses it, their weapon will burst into flames, killing the person wielding it instantly and resetting their level to 1. :D
oneADseven said:Kilsin said:philo said:Edit..nm I was looking at the quote from 2015
On review though:
Not everyone has the same tastes, so it is best if we provide an option to toggle the appearance on/off but keeping in mind we have made it very clear that cosmetic items will be earned in-game, and within our games lore and not easily available to everyone, so it is best to wait and see what we have in store before comparing it to other games and instantly thinking ours will be the same, we know it isn;t everyone's cup of tea and we won't be flooding our game with it as our normal gear will be something to be proud of and be something you will want to show off, not cover up. ;)"
That doesn't specifically exclude cash shops. Sure cosmetic items will be earned in game. That doesn't mean that some won't be available in a cash shop type setting. That quote is pretty vague and doesn't specifically address cah shops.
The quote from 2016 addresses cash shops specifically saying that vanity and other similar types of items could be included in a cash shop. It even goes on to say:
Kilsin said: ...we will need more than a ~$15 sub to keep the bills paid and the game supported for years to come, man! :)
So what is the solution? 15$/month for a year subscription and 25/month if subscribed month to month? Is that enough to keep the bills paid? It does come down to a numbers game/salaries/fees etc.
We won't know for sure until we launch the game and see how it sells and how many people remain subscribed after the first 6-12 months, so my replies are vague because I just don't know man, I am just trying to give you folks as much info as I can without committing to something that may be incorrect or say no to something that we may need to implement down the track.
I can say that we don't want to sell anything that gives an advantage to one player over another, so no stat gear, fast mounts etc. So without knowing the answer just yet, I can say it is our plan to avoid those things if possible but ultimately the success of the game and the growth of the company is important to us so we can not only support Pantheon for many years to come but expand the team and create other games to add to our companies portfolio.
We're not looking to be a one-hit wonder here, we are in it for the long term and we want our community to come along for the ride, so you folks are always in our thoughts when making these decisions :)Does VR have a stance on Kronos? You mentioned we won't be able to (that's the plan, but is subject to change) purchase stat gear or faster mounts, etc. If kronos is implemented wouldn't that just be a work around for the same things? Players could just buy 10 kronos, sell them for a ton of plat and then buy gear, fast mounts, or anything else they could desire. I know that VR has been very clear that they won't allow people to purchase anything that could trivialize the game but there seems to be a disconnect with a lot of players in what that means. I understand that kronos type systems can help combat illegal RMT but in the process I feel it opens up legal P2W and I really hope VR steers away from this path for as long as possible.
I have never heard the team speak about Kronos or similar systems but we are all well aware of what they do to games and many of us have had experience with them either as devs or customers in other games, so it is unlikely but I can't speak officially on it at this stage until I know more.
Kilsin said:Porygon said:Kilsin said:Durp said:What exactly is an "item renaming voucher"?
Exactly what is says man, you can rename an item but it will most likely only be visible to the owner of the item to stop any silly or offensive name getting through the profanity filter.
So, I could rename one of my Daggers "The Dream Crusher" and run around stabbing things but only I would see its name, everyone else would see the Terminus name for it depending on where it dropped, what it was made of and what tier item it was or from a named etc.
This actually sounds great, i cant wait to name every item i have "Kilsin's Dream Crusher"
Lol, I should mention that I have slipped the devs a secret note under their virtual desks to code that title to me only and if anyone else uses it, their weapon will burst into flames, killing the person wielding it instantly and resetting their level to 1. :D
This has been noted. "Kilsin's Dreamcrusher" it is!
Kilsin said:Durp said:What exactly is an "item renaming voucher"?
Exactly what is says man, you can rename an item but it will most likely only be visible to the owner of the item to stop any silly or offensive name getting through the profanity filter.
So, I could rename one of my Daggers "The Dream Crusher" and run around stabbing things but only I would see its name, everyone else would see the Terminus name for it depending on where it dropped, what it was made of and what tier item it was or from a named etc.
I'm quite sad that I'd be the only one seeing the renamed item. I mean, what's the point?
I guess I would have liked to have at least one item in the game that everyone could see like "Durp's Lamentation" or "Durp's Scimitar of the Well-Borne". I'd gladly give up my five renaming vouchers for one of those.
I understand that such a name would have to be approved by VR but I'd be all for that, even if it takes some time. Yes it would take some time away but I guess a Gm could do it. Perhaps via a support ticket?
I have to admit that I thought the item rename vouchers would all work as you described Durp. I was hoping to honor some fallen and have their names memoralized in what I hope to be the best MMO ever. I guess I can still do that with my weapons but the idea of naming an item that will actually appear in game was one of the main perks I was looking forward to. Ahh well.
Durp said:I'm quite sad that I'd be the only one seeing the renamed item. I mean, what's the point?
Agreed. I don't believe that's what people thought they would be receiving when they gave a donation that included item renaming vouchers.
Unsure why someone would want to name something if they are the only one who can see it?
Iksar said:...
I feel that the biggest issue with jumping to $20 is that in our modern era people have too many subscriptions draining them. Netflix, Hulu, HBO Go, Dollar Shave Club, Spotify, Loot Crate, their internet/housing/utility/cell phone/insurance bills, Audible, and a million other possible things.
...
I bring this quote up since it did apply to me... way back in 1999. I found with EQ that I was spending my "free time" playing EQ and not watching TV. At all. I cancelled my TV - all of it way back in 2000 (my bank account has thanked me ever since). Even when I stopped playing EQ (and DAOC and WOW and a couple other tryouts here and there) I never bothered to pick up TV again. I left it behind and my only cost is Internet (the shows that I absolutely must watch or view are easy enough to acquire as a rental through my Library - I just have to wait for it - but that doesn't really bother me). I hope to make Pantheon a subscription. I wonder how many others will end up giving up their subscription streaming services and TVs once Pantheon comes out.
The main reason I joined this community was how happy I was that a developer had taken the brave stance of rejecting a F2P model. Based on my experience with MMOs, I've come to value a subscription above any other system. There are important things going on behind the scenes after the initial purchase, and those cost money. The model I was happiest with was ESO's "play everything as long as you subscribe". All expansions were available to everyone with an ongoing sub, which encouraged people to commit to long-time subscriptions. After their switch to F2P you could still subscribe and get all content, or if you didn't subscribe you'd have to buy each DLC separately. Of course, on top of that was an in-game shop with vanity items, borderline P2W items, and lottery boxes. Thankfully this doesn't seem to be in VR's plans.
I would be happy to pay a $20 or $25 sub to ensure that the game stays funded. This is less than a night out, or the same as a few movie tickets, for something that players typically throw a couple dozen hours a week into. Unfortunately, the F2P mentality has encroached itself in the gaming community to the point that many people reject the very concept of a monthly payment, so I imagine the values I mentioned might be a tough sell. I would also have no problems with a lower subscription value - say $10 or $15/month, and periodic expansions with a higher price. However, this has its own problems. Firstly, it's a gateway to splitting the community between the haves and the have nots. Secondly, expansions would need to justify their price, which may mean adding a lot of new content in short time intervals (e.g. every 6 months or a year), which would really tax the development team.
I hope the community responds enthusiastically to Pantheon so that an in-game shop doesn't even have to be considered. I know that the game needs to stay afloat and that a time may come when subscriptions and expansions might not be enough, but I honestly can't see how Panthon would come out unharmed from the introduction of microtransactions.