Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The P2P system of Pantheon.

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    • 97 posts
    January 4, 2017 9:04 AM PST

    Greetings! Reading through this topic is partially responsible for finally pushing me to go ahead and pony up the $$$ to gain forum access so I could provide my 2cp :) Well played!

    My humble opinion is multi-facted:

    1) This is supposed to be an immersive fantasy world, so anything that would pull us away from that is a bad idea. Including cash shops or crazy appearance items/housing decorations. I would prefer no cash shop what-so-ever

    2) I've played several MMO's starting with EQ, a brief foray into Wow, and a few F2P games such as Runes of Magic. If I'm not mistaken, the setup of EQ Classic is what draws many of us to Pantheon, so I would like to see that retained. E.g. No cash shop, no crazy/non-lore visuals. Everything in the game should be attainable through playing the game

    3) As far as the sub model, I fully support paying for the game, paying a monthly fee, and paying for xpac's. I would just like to see xpac's be thought out, complete, reasonably priced ($29.99-$39.99 USD) and somewhat spread out (whatever that means, but at least a year apart). If the game is truly hurting for money, I would rather pay a little more rather that compromise the integrity of the game by adding cash-cow features just to milk a few more dollars from players.

    • 38 posts
    January 5, 2017 9:05 AM PST

    Coda said:

    Here is the thing about a pure Subscription based system... which is what you guys are suggesting (and this may just be me, but it's something I may as well bring up).

    First, let me define a pure subscription based system: Buy game, Buy expansions, Pay for Subscription. Simply put, it's what WoW does. It's clean, it does it's job, ect. I love this system.

     

    My problem with this system is that I feel rushed to complete game content. If I'm spending x$ per month, I feel obligated to get as much as I can out of my dollar to making my character as strong as possible, reaching endgame the fastest, ect. I feel less inclined to explore and really feel the world. I know the team behind Pantheon has already discussed wanting to make the world as full as possible... and want to make it worth exploring... this is why I bring this up.

    I'm not saying make the game free to play. Again, that ruins games.

    But I would love it if they looked into making sections of the game purchasable indefinitely. I feel much better exploring the world knowing that I spent 30+ dollars unlocking that section of the world forever, and not pressured knowing that I'm 'wasting time' on my 10$ a month subscription. This also lets people with sporadic freetime not feel forced to play to minmax their subscription.

     

    What I suggest is this, make the game have 2 options of purchasing game content.

    1. Pay for game, pay for expansions, pay for subscription (x$/month).
    2. Pay for game, pay for expansions, pay for modules of the world permanently (1 time payment of X but more expensive than subscription immediately)

    I would gladly play more money knowing I'm not wasting time on a subscription, than paying a subcription... but I will pay for a subscription if that's the only option.

     

    $15 a month for an average of 10 hours of game time per week is $0.37 per hour of entertainment (lets add that they are making it as immersive as possible, so it is high quality entertainment) find me other forms of high quality entertainment for less? Additionally there is no *waste of time* when they are trying to rid the MMO genre of the idea of an "end-game" anyways. It just boils down to, if you don't enjoy the game (i.e. feel like you are wasting time) don't play it.

    If anything, I would be more inclined to agree with expansions being cheaper DLCs since a continuous subscription is being paid.

    (just my 2 cents)

    -W

     

    P.S. (no cash shops...)


    This post was edited by Witter at January 5, 2017 9:07 AM PST
    • 110 posts
    January 5, 2017 12:51 PM PST

    Sevens said:

    I hate orange soda but I do love the Mt Dew Live wire....good stuff

    Oh and to stay on topic

    Cash shops suck

    I will pay you a kijilion dollars if you send me some Live Wire. We can't find it around us anymore and my husband is addicted to it!

    And cash shops, like any topic being argued on these forums, isn't a black-and-white issue (ie cash shops = bad! no cash shops = good!). A store front that allows server transfers, name changes -- things totally not attached to playing the game -- can help bring in extra funding to this indy gaming company. That's not a bad thing. The same could also be said for absolutes about potential issues (ie cash shops = gold farmers! no cash shops = no gold farmers!). There are always going to be people who will make it their job/hobby/life to cheat gaming systems for profit, greifing or the challenge. No online game will ever escape it.

    • 318 posts
    January 5, 2017 1:05 PM PST

    Lghtngfan said:

    Sevens said:

    I hate orange soda but I do love the Mt Dew Live wire....good stuff

    Oh and to stay on topic

    Cash shops suck

    I will pay you a kijilion dollars if you send me some Live Wire. We can't find it around us anymore and my husband is addicted to it!

    And cash shops, like any topic being argued on these forums, isn't a black-and-white issue (ie cash shops = bad! no cash shops = good!). A store front that allows server transfers, name changes -- things totally not attached to playing the game -- can help bring in extra funding to this indy gaming company. That's not a bad thing. The same could also be said for absolutes about potential issues (ie cash shops = gold farmers! no cash shops = no gold farmers!). There are always going to be people who will make it their job/hobby/life to cheat gaming systems for profit, greifing or the challenge. No online game will ever escape it.

    Idk... if anything is black and white, cash shops are it.

    Paid services like server transfers and name changes != the common definition of cash shops.

    Regarding the part about gold farmers, I'm not sure what they have to do with cash shops? I feel like those two topics are completely unrelated...

    • 103 posts
    January 5, 2017 1:20 PM PST

    TBH I much prefer the pay as you go model or "asian p2p." Buy a certain amount of hours at $5 $10 packages for example and maybe ending at unlimited play time for $15 a month. One of the biggest complaints Ive read about sub games is the "pressure" to play or feel like youve wasted your money. However you really cant do that if you buy say 10 hours at $5 which can be spread over .... 10 hours or 10 months according to your schedule. If on the other hand you a basement dwel... erm... successfully filthy rich retiree that can and will play hundreds of hours a month then $15 would be the better deal.

    As for OP's question, im happy as far as its sub and im not buying anything short of recustomizations and or server services like transfers with the occasional sequel-like expansions. If they want to give the game away and just have players pay a sub thats great. Modules is fine I guess but thats technically just a more spread out "sub+expansions" model except it feels more like nickel and diming players for content. Coming back every few days or weeks to pay another $X for every other thing I want to do does not sound appealing. Not to mention the logistics of it all... say they sell a new map with so and so dungeons ... fair enough. What about when they start upgrading things like new classes? bigger inventory? Higher level cap with abilities? Should that all just be free for everyone or only if you buy the modules? If you have to buy an epic raid with exclusive gear, isnt that a little too similar to buying gear or other items?

    • 318 posts
    January 5, 2017 1:47 PM PST

    Kayo said:

    TBH I much prefer the pay as you go model or "asian p2p." Buy a certain amount of hours at $5 $10 packages for example and maybe ending at unlimited play time for $15 a month. One of the biggest complaints Ive read about sub games is the "pressure" to play or feel like youve wasted your money. However you really cant do that if you buy say 10 hours at $5 which can be spread over .... 10 hours or 10 months according to your schedule. If on the other hand you a basement dwel... erm... successfully filthy rich retiree that can and will play hundreds of hours a month then $15 would be the better deal.

    As for OP's question, im happy as far as its sub and im not buying anything short of recustomizations and or server services like transfers with the occasional sequel-like expansions. If they want to give the game away and just have players pay a sub thats great. Modules is fine I guess but thats technically just a more spread out "sub+expansions" model except it feels more like nickel and diming players for content. Coming back every few days or weeks to pay another $X for every other thing I want to do does not sound appealing. Not to mention the logistics of it all... say they sell a new map with so and so dungeons ... fair enough. What about when they start upgrading things like new classes? bigger inventory? Higher level cap with abilities? Should that all just be free for everyone or only if you buy the modules? If you have to buy an epic raid with exclusive gear, isnt that a little too similar to buying gear or other items?

    Is that how "asian P2P" works though? They have an unlimited subscription option for $15, and then smaller hourly packages below that? Idk anything about asian mmo's, but I feel like you're trying to get the best of both worlds, which wouldn't work as a successful business model.

    $15/month even if you only play 4 hours a month is still a great deal IMO. 

    • 613 posts
    January 5, 2017 1:48 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Never thought I'd see the day when someone would advocate for pay to win on the Pantheon forums.

    Damn.

     

    I know I just had to read it twice! 

     

    Ox

    • 1618 posts
    January 5, 2017 3:57 PM PST

    Kayo said:

    TBH I much prefer the pay as you go model or "asian p2p." Buy a certain amount of hours at $5 $10 packages for example and maybe ending at unlimited play time for $15 a month. One of the biggest complaints Ive read about sub games is the "pressure" to play or feel like youve wasted your money. However you really cant do that if you buy say 10 hours at $5 which can be spread over .... 10 hours or 10 months according to your schedule. If on the other hand you a basement dwel... erm... successfully filthy rich retiree that can and will play hundreds of hours a month then $15 would be the better deal.

    As for OP's question, im happy as far as its sub and im not buying anything short of recustomizations and or server services like transfers with the occasional sequel-like expansions. If they want to give the game away and just have players pay a sub thats great. Modules is fine I guess but thats technically just a more spread out "sub+expansions" model except it feels more like nickel and diming players for content. Coming back every few days or weeks to pay another $X for every other thing I want to do does not sound appealing. Not to mention the logistics of it all... say they sell a new map with so and so dungeons ... fair enough. What about when they start upgrading things like new classes? bigger inventory? Higher level cap with abilities? Should that all just be free for everyone or only if you buy the modules? If you have to buy an epic raid with exclusive gear, isnt that a little too similar to buying gear or other items?

    I am definitely against paying hourly. There are many times I sit idle or something else. If I paid hourly, I would defi feel pressure to play. Subscriptions free me up to do whatever.

    • 8 posts
    January 5, 2017 9:44 PM PST

    TBH, they cant make it a sub for the people that already bought the game. Thats kinda silly. As a $50 pledger, what does 'digital copy of the game' mean? Did I purchace software that I have to purchace to use?

    • 8 posts
    January 5, 2017 9:46 PM PST

     

    Quintra said:

    Greetings! Reading through this topic is partially responsible for finally pushing me to go ahead and pony up the $$$ to gain forum access so I could provide my 2cp :) Well played!

    My humble opinion is multi-facted:

    1) This is supposed to be an immersive fantasy world, so anything that would pull us away from that is a bad idea. Including cash shops or crazy appearance items/housing decorations. I would prefer no cash shop what-so-ever

    2) I've played several MMO's starting with EQ, a brief foray into Wow, and a few F2P games such as Runes of Magic. If I'm not mistaken, the setup of EQ Classic is what draws many of us to Pantheon, so I would like to see that retained. E.g. No cash shop, no crazy/non-lore visuals. Everything in the game should be attainable through playing the game

    3) As far as the sub model, I fully support paying for the game, paying a monthly fee, and paying for xpac's. I would just like to see xpac's be thought out, complete, reasonably priced ($29.99-$39.99 USD) and somewhat spread out (whatever that means, but at least a year apart). If the game is truly hurting for money, I would rather pay a little more rather that compromise the integrity of the game by adding cash-cow features just to milk a few more dollars from players.

    What do you mean by Xpacks?

    • 9115 posts
    January 5, 2017 10:11 PM PST

    Brigadine said:

    TBH, they cant make it a sub for the people that already bought the game. Thats kinda silly. As a $50 pledger, what does 'digital copy of the game' mean? Did I purchace software that I have to purchace to use?

    The game itself costs money as does the online subscription, this is a traditional payment model that many games still use today, even World of Warcraft.

    • 470 posts
    January 5, 2017 10:34 PM PST

    Brigadine said:

    TBH, they cant make it a sub for the people that already bought the game. Thats kinda silly. As a $50 pledger, what does 'digital copy of the game' mean? Did I purchace software that I have to purchace to use?

    Digital copy is pretty much this: traditionally prior to the Freemium and Buy-to-Play era, MMOs sold the box or digital copy that generally came with 30 days of free play time. After that you paid the monthly subscription to keep playing. I expect Pantheon will be similar in that regard.

    As for them "making it a sub for people that already bought the game", they have said from the get go that it would likely be a subscription-based game with paid expansions (or XPacks as mentioned previously above) as well as a trial type version, which I'm guessing will allow people to play something like the first 10 levels free with some restrictions to cut down on gold seller spam or something along that line.


    This post was edited by Kratuk at January 5, 2017 10:43 PM PST
    • 8 posts
    January 6, 2017 10:27 AM PST

    Kratuk said:

    Brigadine said:

    TBH, they cant make it a sub for the people that already bought the game. Thats kinda silly. As a $50 pledger, what does 'digital copy of the game' mean? Did I purchace software that I have to purchace to use?

    Digital copy is pretty much this: traditionally prior to the Freemium and Buy-to-Play era, MMOs sold the box or digital copy that generally came with 30 days of free play time. After that you paid the monthly subscription to keep playing. I expect Pantheon will be similar in that regard.

    As for them "making it a sub for people that already bought the game", they have said from the get go that it would likely be a subscription-based game with paid expansions (or XPacks as mentioned previously above) as well as a trial type version, which I'm guessing will allow people to play something like the first 10 levels free with some restrictions to cut down on gold seller spam or something along that line.

    As long as they actually maintain the requirment to purchace the game to subscribe to it. Before it went F2P SWTOR had 50, 100 dollar accounts like that but shortly after launch dropped the requirement. I really felt burned. All I had to do was wait a month and get the game for free if I subbed. City of Heroes and Lineage 2 did that right before going F2P.

    Nobody answered my question, what are xpacks?

    • 3016 posts
    January 6, 2017 12:00 PM PST

    $15 bucks for a month full of maximum entertainment hours...whether you play that way or not..can't be beat for getting your money's worth.   How many other things can you pay $15 bucks for and get that much value?  Not much these days.   Gaming in the long run saves me spending copious amounts on other forms of entertainment.   Best bang for your buck in my view. :)

    expacks are expansion packs...new content to play.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at January 6, 2017 4:16 PM PST
    • 3016 posts
    January 6, 2017 12:07 PM PST

    Kayo said:

    TBH I much prefer the pay as you go model or "asian p2p." Buy a certain amount of hours at $5 $10 packages for example and maybe ending at unlimited play time for $15 a month. One of the biggest complaints Ive read about sub games is the "pressure" to play or feel like youve wasted your money. However you really cant do that if you buy say 10 hours at $5 which can be spread over .... 10 hours or 10 months according to your schedule. If on the other hand you a basement dwel... erm... successfully filthy rich retiree that can and will play hundreds of hours a month then $15 would be the better deal.

    As for OP's question, im happy as far as its sub and im not buying anything short of recustomizations and or server services like transfers with the occasional sequel-like expansions. If they want to give the game away and just have players pay a sub thats great. Modules is fine I guess but thats technically just a more spread out "sub+expansions" model except it feels more like nickel and diming players for content. Coming back every few days or weeks to pay another $X for every other thing I want to do does not sound appealing. Not to mention the logistics of it all... say they sell a new map with so and so dungeons ... fair enough. What about when they start upgrading things like new classes? bigger inventory? Higher level cap with abilities? Should that all just be free for everyone or only if you buy the modules? If you have to buy an epic raid with exclusive gear, isnt that a little too similar to buying gear or other items?

     

    Once you buy the game..you get a month free.   After that you pay your $15.00  think of it as renting your space on that or any server.  Unlimited play...play as much or as little as you want.  Paying hourly..nope I wouldn't do that.    Had to do that with ISPs at the start..in 1995..if you went over your 50 hours,  you got charged more.   Thank goodness that's not the norm any more.   

    • 160 posts
    January 6, 2017 12:10 PM PST

    I don't see how can anyone feel any pressure or any "wasted time" because he paid lousy $15/month ?

    If that kind of money is actually a problem for someone, that person has some serious problems in his real life, which he/she should fix first, before playing video games.

    You can spend that much money just going to a movie, you'll get 90-120 min of fun and maybe some popcorn to go with it, that's about it.

    In a MMO you get a MONTH of interactive fun for that money.

     

    • 3016 posts
    January 6, 2017 12:22 PM PST

    Aethor said:

    I don't see how can anyone feel any pressure or any "wasted time" because he paid lousy $15/month ?

    If that kind of money is actually a problem for someone, that person has some serious problems in his real life, which he/she should fix first, before playing video games.

    You can spend that much money just going to a movie, you'll get 90-120 min of fun and maybe some popcorn to go with it, that's about it.

    In a MMO you get a MONTH of interactive fun for that money.

     

     

    Just went to a movie not too long ago Star Trek Beyond in 3D.  Ended up 20 bucks for the movie and another 20 for the popcorn and a chocolate bar and soda pops  used to be cheap, not any more lol. (for two people I should add)

    • 470 posts
    January 6, 2017 3:17 PM PST

    Brigadine said:

    As long as they actually maintain the requirment to purchace the game to subscribe to it. Before it went F2P SWTOR had 50, 100 dollar accounts like that but shortly after launch dropped the requirement. I really felt burned. All I had to do was wait a month and get the game for free if I subbed. City of Heroes and Lineage 2 did that right before going F2P.

    Nobody answered my question, what are xpacks?

    Oh I was there too. And as I recall, SWTOR went F2P not quite 1 year after launch and did just about everything you could think to do wrong with that transition, including locking off hotbars to non-subscribers. Not that I was a fan of that transition to begin with. 

    And I did answer your question about XPacks. They're paid expansions. In more recent subscription-based MMOs you have 2 kinds of content, free content updates and paid expansions. Free content updates are generally new content on a smaller scale, maybe a small zone with a new dungeon, raid, or something to that extent, while a paid expansion expandss the world in a much larger way, adding multiple zones, dungeons, and sometimes new mechanics. Using EverQuest as an example, Empires of Kunark would be a paid XPack/Expansion. 

    https://www.everquest.com/expansion-content

    • 1618 posts
    January 6, 2017 4:17 PM PST

    Brigadine said:

    Kratuk said:

    Brigadine said:

    TBH, they cant make it a sub for the people that already bought the game. Thats kinda silly. As a $50 pledger, what does 'digital copy of the game' mean? Did I purchace software that I have to purchace to use?

    Digital copy is pretty much this: traditionally prior to the Freemium and Buy-to-Play era, MMOs sold the box or digital copy that generally came with 30 days of free play time. After that you paid the monthly subscription to keep playing. I expect Pantheon will be similar in that regard.

    As for them "making it a sub for people that already bought the game", they have said from the get go that it would likely be a subscription-based game with paid expansions (or XPacks as mentioned previously above) as well as a trial type version, which I'm guessing will allow people to play something like the first 10 levels free with some restrictions to cut down on gold seller spam or something along that line.

    As long as they actually maintain the requirment to purchace the game to subscribe to it. Before it went F2P SWTOR had 50, 100 dollar accounts like that but shortly after launch dropped the requirement. I really felt burned. All I had to do was wait a month and get the game for free if I subbed. City of Heroes and Lineage 2 did that right before going F2P.

    Nobody answered my question, what are xpacks?

    From the last stream, I got the impression that the actual software mat be free and we just pay for subs and expansions. They stated that they may have a free trial for first 5-10 levels or so. They wanted you to try the game before paying anything. In order to do that, you would have to be able to download the client for free.

    Anyways, what does it matter if someone pays less a month or two later. Do you get pissed off and feel screwed when you bought car and next month it was on sale? Or buy a shirt and see it in sale a week later? That's how the world works. 

    • 470 posts
    January 6, 2017 4:29 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    From the last stream, I got the impression that the actual software mat be free and we just pay for subs and expansions. They stated that they may have a free trial for first 5-10 levels or so. They wanted you to try the game before paying anything. In order to do that, you would have to be able to download the client for free.

    Anyways, what does it matter if someone pays less a month or two later. Do you get pissed off and feel screwed when you bought car and next month it was on sale? Or buy a shirt and see it in sale a week later? That's how the world works. 

    A few games give/gave the client free on a limited basis for the trial but if you choose to play beyond that you usually had to buy the full version. EVE Online comes to mind as one. Though it's going free-to-play, you could get I think it was a 15-day free trial before buying. I believe World of Warcraft does something similar. 

    • 9 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:05 PM PST

    I would gladly pay a higher subscription fee for some 'luxury' features - nothing game balance tipping, but some convenience and vanity items, provided that we have a committment that Visionary Realms is putting ALL of that upcharge directly into new content development for Pantheon (something many of us got burned on when putting money into EQNext only to see it wasted on H1Z1).

    I'm not a kid borrowing mom's credit card to sub anymore.  Is $15/mo even sustainable for devs anymore?  Inflation alone has already made that something closer to $9/mo since 1999.  I think it's time for the market to stop trying to match Blizzard's unrealistic pricing and instead focus on delivering value for the money, even if that means it costs a little more.

    As to 'buying the box', I agree that it should never be free to play with people who have purchased the box.  I'm fine with expansions including previous expansions, but there should always be a price to get into the game.  Without it, the power of disciplinary action / account locks and bans is taken off the table - and this is an incredibly effective deterrent to awful behavior.

     


    This post was edited by Draslin at January 6, 2017 5:11 PM PST
    • 8 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:18 PM PST

    Kratuk said:

    Beefcake said:

    From the last stream, I got the impression that the actual software mat be free and we just pay for subs and expansions. They stated that they may have a free trial for first 5-10 levels or so. They wanted you to try the game before paying anything. In order to do that, you would have to be able to download the client for free.

    Anyways, what does it matter if someone pays less a month or two later. Do you get pissed off and feel screwed when you bought car and next month it was on sale? Or buy a shirt and see it in sale a week later? That's how the world works. 

    A few games give/gave the client free on a limited basis for the trial but if you choose to play beyond that you usually had to buy the full version. EVE Online comes to mind as one. Though it's going free-to-play, you could get I think it was a 15-day free trial before buying. I believe World of Warcraft does something similar. 

    Eve Online is not free to play. You can only really access 10% of the skills in the game whitch really is the content. As somone who has played eve on and off for the last 5 years eve is a very stange creature that cant really be compared to any other MMO without it being a comparision of potato to car. The best way to put what eve is doing is an unlimited trial.

     

    If the game stopped requiring purchace of the software that is not a 'sale', that is free and that is wrong. Per the anology of "Anyways, what does it matter if someone pays less a month or two later. Do you get pissed off and feel screwed when you bought car and next month it was on sale? Or buy a shirt and see it in sale a week later? That's how the world works."

    Please tell me the last time you baught a car and everyone after you got it for free?


    This post was edited by Brigadine at January 6, 2017 5:19 PM PST
    • 8 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:25 PM PST

    Draslin said:

    I would gladly pay a higher subscription fee for some 'luxury' features - nothing game balance tipping, but some convenience and vanity items, provided that we have a committment that Visionary Realms is putting ALL of that upcharge directly into new content development for Pantheon (something many of us got burned on when putting money into EQNext only to see it wasted on H1Z1).

    I'm not a kid borrowing mom's credit card to sub anymore.  Is $15/mo even sustainable for devs anymore?  Inflation alone has already made that something closer to $9/mo since 1999.  I think it's time for the market to stop trying to match Blizzard's unrealistic pricing and instead focus on delivering value for the money, even if that means it costs a little more.

    As to 'buying the box', I agree that it should never be free to play with people who have purchased the box.  I'm fine with expansions including previous expansions, but there should always be a price to get into the game.  Without it, the power of disciplinary action / account locks and bans is taken off the table - and this is an incredibly effective deterrent to awful behavior.

     

    Thats not how inflation works bro. Its all proportal. The cost in 1999 and price of $15 is proportionally the same as the cost in 2017 and the price of $15. The value of the dollar moves with the cost equally(in theory).

     

    Another way to put it. Lets say due to inflation the cost of manufacture in dollars has gone up by 25%. The inflation of the dollar whitch casued inflation of manufacture cost is also 25% BECAUSE it is the same thing.

    inflation of 25% = the cost inflated by 25%= the $15 is equal due to the $15 being equally impacted by the 25%.

     

    I know ratios of 1:1 are hard.

    • 1281 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:28 PM PST

    One thing I don't like is how gamers are torn apart by not buying expansions.

    I like buying the game but then consider the subscription a SaaS (Software as a Service) model. That means as long as your account is active you have full access to the game and expansions. Every player would always be able to group.

    If you keep the game at full price or near full price, that may circumvent the need to sell expansions.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at January 6, 2017 5:29 PM PST
    • 8 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:30 PM PST

    i

    bigdogchris said:

    One thing I don't like is how gamers are torn apart by not buying expansions.

    I like buying the game but then consider the subscription a SaaS (Software as a Service) model. That means as long as your account is active you have full access to the game and expansions. Every player would always be able to group.

    I agree, even non MMOs fall victim to this. SWBF3 BF4, BF3... basiclaly anything made by EA.


    This post was edited by Brigadine at January 6, 2017 5:30 PM PST