Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The P2P system of Pantheon.

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    • 1399 posts
    December 25, 2016 1:13 PM PST

    NoobieDoo said:

    I don't mind the 'buy game, pay sub, and buy xpacs' model. But I also wouldn't mind a different model such as 'buy game, pay a higher monthly sub fee, and get xpacs/updates for free'. I'd be cool with buying the game for whatever and then paying $20 a month, maybe even $25 a month if I knew I was never going to have to pay for an expansion. This way, the devs don't have to worry about making sure an expansion pack is worth the ticket price because there is no ticket price. Then they can update the game as much as they want and as little or as big as they want. With a model like this they could easily update the game 6 times in one year with 5 smallish updates and 1 major update and not have to worry about 1 gigantic expac every year or 2. Just food for thought.

    Cash shops are a tricky slippery slope. I don't want cash shops for one reason. There are many reasons out there, because you should earn the items in game if you want to have them, because paying for in game items via a cash shop is double dipping off the subscription fee, so on and so forth. I simply don't want them because it intrudes on the virtual world I'm enjoying. I want Pantheon to return me to those virtual worlds I got lost in for so many hours such as EQ did and VG. And if I see someone with an item that they got from outside of this world it will jar my experience. I don't know any other way to explain it. I understand the want for VRi to make money, and the desire to thwart gold sellers but buying in game items from a cash shop just doesn't sit well with me and there are many reasons why it's a bad idea.

    I like this idea of paying in advance monthly for expansions.. but there would be a lot of problems that would need worked out...

    People paying say $5 per month... that's $60 per year, we're going to EXPECT an expansion for that amount. What if it's not ready? Do we go without? Do they push it out incomplete? Do they push it out Broken? 

    I'm not shure that would work.

    EDIT: Money on account ,  at the end of the year I would have that $60 on account that I could apply to an expansion when ready, or apply to subscription. I could keep paying or stop paying additional amounts. Just a thought


    This post was edited by Zorkon at December 25, 2016 1:19 PM PST
    • 1618 posts
    December 25, 2016 4:19 PM PST

    I would not mind a cash shop 5 years or so down the road, when subs decline. But, definitely not at release and not while the game is still great. Cash shops are for declining games.

    • 323 posts
    December 25, 2016 5:08 PM PST
    I cringe every time the topic of cash shops is raised on this forum. Cash shops are antithetical to the basic idea of inhabiting and immersing in a virtual world. Using real life money to purchase items or currency in game causes players to become disenchanted with the game. Like Hannar and others, I would gladly pay a premium ($30/mo? $50/mo?) to keep the game clean from cash shops. Rather than try to create a system that supplants gold farmers, gold buyers, account buyers and account sellers, I would much prefer to see liberal use of the ban stick.


    With respect to needing cash shops when the game is more mature, I am not convinced that is the way to go. Time-locked progression servers, premium servers (more expensive servers w/ better rule enforcement, for example), and increasing subscription rates all seem like better ways to generate revenue without compromising first principles.


    As I think more about this, maybe the solution is a premium server or two. Make the subscription higher to play on the premium server, and keep that server free of cash shops and regulated more closely for out-of-game transactions in accounts and currency. Even if some servers eventually go cash shop for one reason or another, those of us who despise those elements could pay a moderate premium to be free of them.

    • 1618 posts
    December 25, 2016 8:28 PM PST

    Hopefully, The renaissance of MMOs will attract enough people to support long term cashshoplessness.

    • 19 posts
    December 27, 2016 9:22 PM PST

    I'm a fan of subscription games.  F2P tends to have abysmal communities and cash shop games are crass.  Cash shops tend to interfere with the design aspect of a game because they want you to buy something to make the game easier or more pleasant.  Games should be designed to be enjoyable, not to pay to lessen pain.


    This post was edited by Morr at December 28, 2016 6:22 AM PST
    • 556 posts
    December 28, 2016 8:43 AM PST

    Sub model is still the best one out there. Pay the $15 a month and buy the expacs.

    As for cash shops, well if the cash shop is done correctly its not that big a deal. Cosmetic things in the cash shops I could really care less about. So long as they don't start selling char boosts, items in game, xp/rep/cash/etc boosts then I am totally fine with them. Sometimes I even like some of the outfits and end up buying them. Its more money for the ocmpany and i have no real issue with that.

    Now to bots and gold farmers ... if you think for a single second that you have found the magical way to stop them then I only have 1 thing to tell you ... You're absolutely delusional. There. Is. No. Way. To. Stop. Them. Every single game claims to have the answer but the truth is, the only way to stop gold farming and the such is to not allow trading period and that is going against everything the game is about. BDO tried it and it's horrible. They even set pricing limits based on the item you were selling to control the economy and guess what! Gold sellers are still rampant. This will happen no matter what steps are taken. Best they can do is get good at tracking it and ban them quickly. 

    *BDO did allow trading for items which is how selling gold happened. They would trade thousands of potions that said person could vendor for the amount they paid for in RL money. Figured I'd clarify before the "but BDO did let you trade" came about. *

    • 319 posts
    December 28, 2016 9:16 AM PST

    I also am in favor of subs and buy expansions. But I am also in favor of a lifetime sub for a decent amount of cash. They had this in LOTRO but still went free to play after revenue fell. FTP is an awefull concept because some people are too lazy to work for what they need and want and have enough money to just buy them. They don t realize they are missing the best parts of the game. So if a lifetime sub is available I think It should come with either

     PROMISE OF NO FTP  OR

    A DEDICATED SERVER THAT WILL ALWAYS BE SUBSCRITION BASED AND NEVER A CASH SHOP WITH NO TRANSFERES IN OR OUT UNLESS YOU GO NAKED

     

    • 169 posts
    December 28, 2016 10:29 PM PST
    Buy game...and sub model is good, along with the option to sub..and buy modules of the game a little at a time.
    Also premium servers could help the cash flow of the game a good bit.
    Mtn dew>pepsi>coke
    • 1618 posts
    December 29, 2016 2:37 PM PST

    Cannot agree under any circumstance. Mtn dew > coke > Pepsi. Pepsi is too sweet for a cola. Mt dew is sweeter than Pepsi, but it's not a cola.

    Also, not a fan of lifetime subs. That leads to cash flow problems in mature games and event cash shops. Just take my subs and expansions and make the game worth it in the long term.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at December 29, 2016 2:39 PM PST
    • 2886 posts
    January 1, 2017 7:11 AM PST

    Marilee said:

    Coda said:

    Sevens said:

    Sorry, I dont mean to come off as an ass (thought I have been told by many on here I am lol). Its hard for me to understand how something like a sub could compell someone to feel pressured to rush rush rush...but then again Im sure a lot of people dont understand my insistance that Pepsi is the greatest thing ever created. We are all wired different.

    No problem and no worries. "Wired different" is probably the perfect and only reason I'm even bring this up. I prefer owning the entire game and playing through on my time, than 'forced' to play while I have a subscription ticking, thats all.

     

    I'm truly just curious when I ask you this, Coda.  I'm not implying anything nor am I trying to be flippant, I just like to try to understand how people think.

    If you paid monthly for SiriusXM radio in your car, would you feel you had to drive a certain amount in order to get your money's worth for the monthly fee?  How about Amazon Prime?  Would you feel pressured to buy things from Amazon in order to get your money's worth for Prime shipping?  

    Again, please understand I'm not being facetious or trying to get a rise or inventing forum drama.  I'm just trying to understand how that mindset works.  I hope my questions aren't taken wrong

     

    As for Sevens--Pepsi is, in fact, the greatest thing ever created and I will fight you to the death for a bottle of that sweet, sweet nectar. 

    Acutally I am also curious about this logic lol.

    I can understand perhaps wanting to spend as much sheer time logged in as possible to get your money's worth in subscription. For example, 50 hours/month is a better value than 20 hours/month. You may feel motivated to skip work or school to get more hours in. But regardless, who cares how you spend that time? You pay for your sub, you chose what you do with it. If you want to spend your 50 hours grinding XP, then do so. But if you want to spend your 50 hours just exploring, then do that. I think VR has made it pretty clear that all styles and schedules will be accomodated. I don't at all see how the sub itself influences how you spend your time?? 

    • 243 posts
    January 1, 2017 9:43 AM PST

    Megaera said: Mtn dew>pepsi>coke

    I approve of this message.  

    I don't have anything to add to the topic, sorry,  others have pretty much stated what I think of cash shops. I had to chime in to support my Dew buddy :)

    LoL Sevens, yes, cash shops suck

    Edited to stay on topic.


    This post was edited by Rominian at January 1, 2017 10:15 AM PST
    • 610 posts
    January 1, 2017 9:49 AM PST

    I hate orange soda but I do love the Mt Dew Live wire....good stuff

    Oh and to stay on topic

    Cash shops suck

    • 284 posts
    January 1, 2017 9:57 AM PST

    This topic came up on reddit (twice) recently, and for me I think if additional revenue is really something they need I would prefer to see a netflix-like model. Netflix chooses to raise the sub fees instead of including ads in their programming. Since they both a) allowed for polling on which to include, b) gave ample notice of the increase and c) allowed temporary grandfathering of older sub rates (as long as somebody had paid for a certain amount of time out), the system has not been "popular" but it certainly is the "least bad", in my opinion. 

    I don't know how much sub fee would have to go up or if it would at all, but I'd much prefer to see a $1/month increase every other year than watching whales run around with everything cool.

    • 178 posts
    January 1, 2017 11:02 AM PST

    I am with NoobieDoo on this. An initial purchase and a subscription afterwardas that is also put towards expansions. Some had suggested that an extra $5/month would practically have people demanding an expansion every year (that being $60 extra every year). So if that doesn't seem plausible then a bit less. But the advantage as I see it with not having to pay for expansions is not having to have a game that has to address those that have purchased the expansion and those that have not purchased the expansion. Otherwise to maintain the game for those that haven't puchased the expansion old zones don't get updated and new zones keep getting added - and eventually we have the problem of underutilized zones or zones in desperate need of an update - which may end up being free, anyway. So if a zone gets an update as part of an expansion then everyone gets that update the next time they log in.

     

    Subscriptions exist for all sorts of things that people utilize (including this forum).

     

    As for cash shops I do not want to see cash shops that exchange real world money for in-game things. However, I can see how real world money could be used for bringing in-game content out to the real world. A purchasable model for those with 3-D printers to print out their characters or others characters; a cloth wall map of well known maps (cities, zones, etc). Maybe even resin models for purchase. But absolutely nothing that would take real world money and turn it into in game stuff for in game purposes.

    • 780 posts
    January 1, 2017 11:19 AM PST

    Jimmayus said:

    This topic came up on reddit (twice) recently, and for me I think if additional revenue is really something they need I would prefer to see a netflix-like model. Netflix chooses to raise the sub fees instead of including ads in their programming. Since they both a) allowed for polling on which to include, b) gave ample notice of the increase and c) allowed temporary grandfathering of older sub rates (as long as somebody had paid for a certain amount of time out), the system has not been "popular" but it certainly is the "least bad", in my opinion. 

    I don't know how much sub fee would have to go up or if it would at all, but I'd much prefer to see a $1/month increase every other year than watching whales run around with everything cool.

     

    I like this plan...if they need to raise the cost of subscriptions by a few dollars a month to keep the game going, so be it.  The higher subscription rate and free expansions mentioned by NoobieDoo could also work, but I think that would have to just be an option that targets those who want to support the game a bit more, like we do.  I prefer all of that to cash shops.

    • 3016 posts
    January 1, 2017 11:53 AM PST

    Coda said:

    Liav said:

    They've already established that Pantheon will be subscription based only. You can play early levels of the game free and subscribe to continue playing. Probably $14.99 or something comparable.

    According to the FAQ...

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch.

    Which means, unless they havn't updated the FAQ, they are still deciding between traditional subscription or module subscription types of payment. I'd personally love a combination of both, but I'm sure others have different opinions, which is why I made this thread.

     

    I have a hunch the "mini-modules" will be something along the lines of DLC..downloadable content that you pay for online. So mini expacs..basically. Those were pretty popular when I played online before.   And a way for VR to gain some revenue for their next project.


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at January 1, 2017 11:55 AM PST
    • 1618 posts
    January 1, 2017 1:42 PM PST

    I would prefer smaller content updates every few months over annually. Keeps people interested more, more sustained subs, and less resubbing after an expansion and cancelling a month later.

    • 144 posts
    January 3, 2017 8:53 PM PST

    I like the sub and pay for expac model best overall. I'd also be totally cool with buying mini-modules, and paying for a yearly big expac

    If there is ever a cash shop in Pantheon, I hope it is only for things like objects for player housing etc, and purely cosmetic but I'd rather see that sort of thing not be bought with real money, and instead be crafted by players and be part of the in game economy.

    • 780 posts
    January 3, 2017 9:38 PM PST

    I'm cool with selling mini-expansions.  It's a way to add to the game without changing everything (or almost everything) at once, like expansions generally do.

    • 801 posts
    January 4, 2017 4:52 AM PST

    Portalgun said:

    I like the sub and pay for expac model best overall. I'd also be totally cool with buying mini-modules, and paying for a yearly big expac

    If there is ever a cash shop in Pantheon, I hope it is only for things like objects for player housing etc, and purely cosmetic but I'd rather see that sort of thing not be bought with real money, and instead be crafted by players and be part of the in game economy.

    Which seems to be the norm with some games. Just random objects not detailed in the game. Made for the player base especially.

    Some? maybe most of us are used to the sub, and pay for expansions, but when those numbers decline.. its rather hard to say what model your faced with after 5 years of development.

     

    • 422 posts
    January 4, 2017 6:07 AM PST

    First, botting will happen with P2P, don't kid yourself.

     

    I want to see purchased game/exp with a sub. I'd like to even see in game "krono" type items to pay for the sub that is trade-able in game.

    • 137 posts
    January 4, 2017 6:22 AM PST

    At the risk of sounding flammatory.......

    Something I have read here, on reddit, and heard people talking about in games like P1999, was that they cannot afford a monthly sub and a new expantion pack once a year.....what the hell are you people doing for a living that has left you with so little money? I mean really, 15 bucks a month, 50 bucks a year for a expansion pack is gonna break the bank? You really have bigger issues to consider then whether or not this game is right for you. Sorry but that 15 bucks a month is what keeps the lights on, if you can't afford it, then really yah gotta go, cause your not helping keep the ship afloat anyway.

    ....flame off

    • 323 posts
    January 4, 2017 6:25 AM PST
    Down with Krono. If you introduce tradeable krono, you make the game pay-to-win. Want the best tradeable gear? Buy Kronos, trade them in game for game currency, and buy the best stuff on the market. The outcome is really not that different from a cash shop. The mechanism is just a bit more indirect.
    • 61 posts
    January 4, 2017 6:52 AM PST

    I don't believe adding a subscription for a game is much of a show-stopper for adults anymore.  At least, not once they think about it a little bit. 

    First off, we live in a subscription-heavy world nowadays.  We have a subscription for cable, netflix, hulu and gamefly for home entertainment.  We have phone and internet subscriptions.   We buy my razors via a subscription.  They now sell bras and loungerie via a subscription model.   I have a monthly subscription with my chiropractor.  We have a subscription to have snacks sent to our house via Graze.  I would be surprised if a 2 person household has less than 5 subscriptions already.  

    Secondly, $15 or $20 a month for as many hours of entertainment as you want to put into it is ridiculously cheap.  When I first started paying a subscription for EQ last century... I thought of it like this... pay a few measly dollars for a subscription and stay home on Friday/Saturday nights playing games.... or go out to a club and spend $100 on drinks, tips and cover charges.  Let's see, less than $15 a month vs $200 a weekend four times a month... sheesh... as far as my math skills can tell, $15 is far less than $800.  And if I wasn't going to clubs, I would have been going to hockey, basketball and football games or out to the movies or a myriad of other expensive activities.  No, a $15 subscription saved me a fortune for years. 

     

    My nephews on the other hand don't have much of an income, being kids and all.  And their parents balk a bit at footing the bill for a subscription for them.  So I suggested my nephews start playing as many sports as possible and see how willing their parents are to pay for all of that.  Pretty soon their parents were suggesting they drop down to only one sport... and a game subscription of their choice.

    • 1618 posts
    January 4, 2017 8:37 AM PST

    bluefoxcode said:

    My nephews on the other hand don't have much of an income, being kids and all.  And their parents balk a bit at footing the bill for a subscription for them.  So I suggested my nephews start playing as many sports as possible and see how willing their parents are to pay for all of that.  Pretty soon their parents were suggesting they drop down to only one sport... and a game subscription of their choice.

    Amen, Brother!

    I have 5 kids all active in sports. It's ridiculous how much it costs. Luckily our school is not a big pay to play like others.  That's even more expensive.

    And then the time sinks of all the practices, games, etc.

    My budget prays for the days when I can get the kids to forget sports and settle down in front of a MMO.