Liav said:Gnog said:I totally agree that players who invest way more time should be rewarded. And I don't expect or want "casual" players to be able to complete content at the same pace as "rush-to-endgame" players. What I'm saying is that PL has a major affect on a server economies (goods, services, competition for content) and the status-value of a maximum-level character, and I strongly believe that, all things considered, those effects are a net "bad."
I understand your point of view, I just prefer facts to beliefs when making a hard call on something like this. Is there solid evidence that PLing has a major effect on server economies, outside of being another commodity to spend money on? Is being a high level player ever actually going to have a high status-value in an MMO, considering it hasn't in any game for years? Is utilizing content for the purpose of powerleveling in some way a less legitimate use of that content than a group of X separate players, or a box group? I've seen people who have played the same character for 10 years and still can't perform competently, so should the competence of a freshly powerleveled max level toon even be a consideration? Someone who is extremely good at the game could probably master a new class in less time than it would take to level it from scratch,.
Even if you answer yes to all of these questions, does that necessarily make powerleveling a negative?
I would argue that selling PL services is a great way to build community and encourage currency exchange between players. I would argue that having an avenue to level third+ alts in a more streamlined manner than repeating the same early game content 3+ times is great.
That is totally crazy, you cant say powerlvling effects any economies. are you sure grog your not thinking about massive AOE killing to gain larger amounts of gems or loot for pure gain?
Powerlvl is leveling a lvl 1 character to like lvl 100 in a week. Merely for ones own gain. Either it be a friend or family character, or for a change to main. Not everyone enjoys the 10 years to play 1 character and taking another 10 years to make a new one. This is why powerlvling was invented.
If your thinking of internal economies, well it will have some impact, but no different then a person AOE killing for tradeskill items to powerlvl those tradeskills that take 1000 combines to gain 1 skill lvl.
If your thinking of money outside the game? that is up to the devs to police the exploits not us.
HOnestly? i think Grog your trying to powerlvl followers to your cause now.
Not sure if this was touched on in this huge thread, but wouldn't any type of restriction on powerleveling mean that spells wouldn't be able to be cast on other players? If you put it in EQ1 terms as to how there is a level restriction on what spells can land on certain player levels, you just need to look at EQ1 again to see how it basically does nothing to stop powerleveling. Just casting a heal on another person not in your group would be considered a PL then. So how would a system that prevents PLing work?
If someone explained it already, I'm sorry I didn't see it. Sifting though all these pages would take me forever and I don't even know how to read.
@Kilsin - Glad you decided to weigh in and no I don't take offense to anything you've said. As I've stated, we don't know anything about the Progeny system just yet. I am hoping that it doesn't give enough of a boost to warrant it being a "required" thing for the hardcore end game guilds as that would become incredibly taxing on the playerbase. But that is all something that will need to be fleshed out during alpha/beta. Considering the amount that the dev's currently listen to playerbase I am really not worried that this will be a thing and if so I will be the most outspoken one concerning it. I simply referenced it because of the discussion of PLing as this would be the only real factor where PLing could become an issue.
@Radamus - I did touch on spells not working on people that are too far below the level of the spell as EQ1 did later on in the game. But at launch I don't think this should even really be a factor. Launch spells should work on all, first xpac work on 46-60 (if starting cap is 50 and xpac takes it to 60) or something similar. The main discussion has more or less turned to how PLing could be a detriment to the economy, which I don't even see how it is really possible.
"Waaah! Waaah! Someone leveled faster than me!"
People need to be more concerned about their own progress and less about what everyone else is doing. If you want to go slow, do it. But don't demand that everyone go the same pace as you Or that restrictions are in place to make people go your speed. I work 40 hours a week, have a family with five kids, and will still work to level as best as I can. But I will not demand that those with more free time slow down so that I can beat them.
If some people find a way to get higher faster, life will go on.
If you are worried about server firsts, powerlevelling does not get you firsts. Someone who worked hard will get it before someone who waits to be powerleveled.
Those that are powerleveled usually don't have the skills and the community will soon learn to stay away from her. This will help the community. If they already know how to play the class well, and are just leveling to fill a spot in need, the community is better off.
This is a game. It needs to be enjoyed. If you are always worried that someone else is faster/better than you, your fun will suck.
Complicated topic with just defining "power leveling" a contentious issue.
My take is that it is undesirable to let a high level significantly speed up the leveling process for a lower level. We need not go crazy to prevent any help being given but a lower level should get limited or zero experience when a higher level is grouped with him or her or contributes significantly to killing mobs.
In Rift you can go afk in a dungeon and gain level after level as a higher level individual or party commits mayhem on the poor defenseless mobs. Obviously very few if any of us want something like that here. For many reasons including the pain of grouping with a powerleveled party member that hasn't bothered to learn the class well.
I think it should be allowed with some restrictions in place tbd by VR. I don't really worry what other people are going to do, someone will always be better than me in games, I accepted it long ago. If someone bypasses content to level fast, it's their loss. I want to experience the game in it's entirety. Will I feel the same way when I create an alt? Probably since it would most likely be a different race and would start in a different place and possibly have different quests available. That's one reason I am one of the few (it seems) that is excited about the Progeny system and what could be done with it. I am strange though, in my most recent MMO (Rift) I leveled up multiple characters, then shockingly deleted them, and started over even though there was no benefit whatsoever in doing so. I think sometimes the journey can be more fun and rewarding than the destination. I think VR intends to make the journey fun through difficult, challenging content. Again, if someone gets bored and wants to race to the end, have at it.
Preconceived notions about powerleveling like "their loss" really don't help the discussion at all.
Not everyone has the same objectives. Ten different people completing the same in-game task will have wildly different impacts on every player.
I'm not saying that every possible playstyle should be accomodated equally. A playstyle that involves speedhacking shouldn't be accomodated. However, playstyles that aren't a wild departure from the game's tenets should probably be reasonably accomodated in my eyes. Pantheon is a niche game, but even within a niche there are more subtle niches.
EQ is/was a great game. However, I would not have played anywhere near as many alts as I did if I couldn't bypass some of the more boring level ranges. Powerleveling increases the longevity of games for me through the production of alts. Many other people feel the same way. I have no expectation that everyone else will feel that way.
It's also important to note that in the past, EQ was a game that was more "about the journey than the destination", yet a sizable portion of people still decided to bypass content via powerleveling on their alts.
Radamus said:Not sure if this was touched on in this huge thread, but wouldn't any type of restriction on powerleveling mean that spells wouldn't be able to be cast on other players? If you put it in EQ1 terms as to how there is a level restriction on what spells can land on certain player levels, you just need to look at EQ1 again to see how it basically does nothing to stop powerleveling. Just casting a heal on another person not in your group would be considered a PL then. So how would a system that prevents PLing work?
If someone explained it already, I'm sorry I didn't see it. Sifting though all these pages would take me forever and I don't even know how to read.
No, I don't think that preventing power-leveling would require preventing someone from casting spells on another player. Nor would it require scaling down the spells' effects to a lower level of power. Prevention of power leveling would simply mean tuning the experience system to give experience based on the risk that was undertaken to overcome a challenge. If a higher level toons is completely trivializing an encounter--such as by doing all of the damage through damage shields, or doing all of the damage and then zoning, or keeping mobs completely chain stunned--then the lower level character would not get full "experience" for the kills. Something like that.
Beefcake said:"Waaah! Waaah! Someone leveled faster than me!"
People need to be more concerned about their own progress and less about what everyone else is doing. If you want to go slow, do it. But don't demand that everyone go the same pace as you Or that restrictions are in place to make people go your speed. I work 40 hours a week, have a family with five kids, and will still work to level as best as I can. But I will not demand that those with more free time slow down so that I can beat them.
If some people find a way to get higher faster, life will go on.
If you are worried about server firsts, powerlevelling does not get you firsts. Someone who worked hard will get it before someone who waits to be powerleveled.
Those that are powerleveled usually don't have the skills and the community will soon learn to stay away from her. This will help the community. If they already know how to play the class well, and are just leveling to fill a spot in need, the community is better off.
This is a game. It needs to be enjoyed. If you are always worried that someone else is faster/better than you, your fun will suck.
This post was a bit irritating to read. You obviously did not read (or perhaps did not understand) the argument against power leveling made in the opening post and posts thereafter. Nobody in this thread advocated for restrictions "to make people go your speed," nor did anyone suggest that VR create a system that would "slow down" people with more free time so that casual gamers can beat them. Nobody suggested that getting "server firsts" was a reason to prevent PL. Your suggestion that each player should "focus on their own progress" and not worry about what other players are doing could be used to justify virtually any behavior in the game; that argument reduces to the absurd and is not persuasive. And the accusation that I am a "cry-baby" for raising concerns about the effects that certain PL techniques may have on a server is just churlish.
Just to take an extreme example, do you really think it makes sense to give a low-level toon full experience for a kill when the mob was killed primarily by a max-level damage shield that was applied to a higher level toon? Do you think it makes sense to give a low-level toon full experience for finishing the last 5% of a group of mobs that were mowed down by a high-level player who then wiped agro by zoning? How do those gimmicky workarounds to the leveling process add anything of value to the game?
While true that many powerleveling mechanics could be filed under unintended exploits, it doesn't address powerleveling that occurs within natural limits. For instance, Dark Age of Camelot has no restrictions on levels to get XP. You can group a level 1 with a level 50 and go AE a ton of content and powerlevel someone from 1-50 in an hour or two, and that is the most popular method.
In short, I think the question should be a lot more general.
"Should accelerated methods of leveling as a result of the influence of higher level players be acceptable at all?"
In my opinion, there are a ton of positives associated with allowing it. Others will argue that there are negatives. I advocate for allowing it for aforementioned reasons.
So many things that accelerate the "organic" leveling process exist. Technically, twinking could be filed under the question I asked above. Gear used for twinking can only ever come from higher level players farming it and selling it, or passing it down, generally.
Since most gear is tradable, twinkling will be rampant. But, I am actually in favor of this. I usually WANT to tank, but often my utiliy toons are needed in a group, so I get stuck playing them. But that's OK, since my utilit toon can get enough items to gear up my tank.
This definitely encourages people with alts to think about the guild first and play what the raid needs, while still getting progression on the toons they want to gear up.
Beefcake said:Since most gear is tradable, twinkling will be rampant. But, I am actually in favor of this. I usually WANT to tank, but often my utiliy toons are needed in a group, so I get stuck playing them. But that's OK, since my utilit toon can get enough items to gear up my tank.
This definitely encourages people with alts to think about the guild first and play what the raid needs, while still getting progression on the toons they want to gear up.
Then you have to take a person that is casual, vs someone who plays hardcore, guild raider etc.. so many differences and views.
Like it was said some games allow you to realm vs realm fight fast enough, why restrict someone there its pvp. When it comes to pve, nobody cares either. We didnt stop them in EQ, we didnt stop them in wow and we wont stop them in the future. Everyone finds ways to make leveling not so much a grind fest. Powerlvling was invented because of these reasons. It is really your choice how you want to play.
Eliseus said:Some of these most recent thoughts are something I wish I could comment on. Sadly I will have to wait to have hands on experience to conclude my feelings on things like the Progeny system. From what I heard though if there is potential to play every class on 1 character and the progeny system is the way of doing it, I will absolutely love this system.
This is not my understanding of the Progeny system at all...not sure how you mean play every class on 1 character?
As far as I understand...your toon hits max level and you have the option to retire it, you sacrafice that toon (delete it) and make an alt that is the child (or something) to the toon you just sac'd. You recieve a small bonus (which hasnt been determined or talked about yet) such as to Tradeskilling if the sac'd toon was a master crafter (as an example).
Please dont limit our freedom of playstyle because of a few that are afraid of a unfair playing field. Asking to put in extra mechanics to stop people from gaining experience with their more powerful friends is the untimate example of hand-holding imo.
Making it to a higher level should open up opprotunities such as PLing for money; or PLing your friends who have a job and family and cant put in 6 or 12 hours a day on the computer.
EQ was great, and it was never fair.
Edited for sensitivity.
Greattaste said:Please dont limit our freedom of playstyle because of a few that are afraid of a unfair playing field. Asking to put in extra mechanics to stop people from gaining experience with their more powerful friends is the untimate example of hand holding imo.
Making it to a higher level should open up opprotunities such as PLing for money; or your friends who have a job and family and cant put in 6 or 12 hours a day on the computer.
EQ was great, and it was never fair.
Edited for sensitivity lol.
Congratulations. You have failed completely to understand that, in a virtual world, everything is artificial and there is no distinction between "restricting freedom" and simply designing a progression system that rewards un-assisted, un-trivialized gameplay. They are opposite sides of the same coin, and your appeal to notions of "freedom" is a confused result of viewing this question with EQ as the status quo. Moreoever, taking a position against trivializing PL mechanics does not reflect a "[fear] of a unfair playing field," nor a desire to equalize progression among all players. If robust power leveling techniques are permitted in the game, and I set an objective to level characters quickly, then I will use them. But I would prefer that certain trivializing, gimmicky techniques not be available, for the reasons I stated in the opening post. Your post boils down to a statement that you personally like the option to Power Level. Great. Thanks for adding nothing of substance while also demonstrating your adolescense.
I think it's high time to let this thread die. The main points have been made on either side, and the tough questions will come in the details of implementing the experience-gaining system. =)
Peace. Both sides here have fallen from debating an issue with multiple legitimate solutions to insulting eachother. We don't need to agree, how boring if we did. Lively debate produces well informed answers that are more likely to be good answers. Never forget the adversary on one thread is likely to be the ally on the next.
Keep it on topic, respectful and constructive folks or risk having posts removed and/or the thread closed. Personal attacks and arguments over "opinions" is not only petty and time wasting but it won't be tolerated on these development forums.
Power leveling should not be prevented but there should be some restrictions examples:(using eqoa since it was my favorite mmo) 1. A few friends need help leveling....so this is what I did.... I logged onto my wife's shaman, cast a buff in myself (procs heals on me every time I was hit..only procs..on melee hits...casters will still kill tank), and I pulled a small section of a camp (10 mobs), grp aoe them down without help from me other than pulling and tanking. As long as it's not interfereing with other ppl xp ing, it should be allowed. 2. Friends need help, so I log onto my cleric and heal their tank out of grp so they can fill grp with dps, and buff grp so they all take less damage.....so the tank can pull faster and pull more...they mobs die faster.... This method should be allowed also. 3. Friends need help...I log onto a toon...pull tons of mobs from multiple camps....low lvl grp tags mobs....i zone or kill them and they receive max xp.... This method should be disallowed and if person pulling is disrupting other players at the low level...him and his grp should all get a mini vacation to think about their actions...along with a rollback of xp gained.
I will try this once more, as best I can:
I don't care about low level content at all. Once its been done with my first toon I am not going back. I usually play 3-4 classes that I PL up with my main toon. I am willing to bet there are way more of "me" than there are of "you".
None of us are trying to stop you from casually playing all your toons through these levels and so far NONE of you against PL have made any points backed up with actually FACTS that PL is bad.
Now we come to the people who are 50/50(PL should be allowed but with restrictions). As long as it doesn't affect me point of view. I completely disagree. While I find the vast majority of the time people who are PL(including myself) invite others around to join and are generally respectful of the area, I WANT people to have the option to train/snub/and general be a dick if they want. This adds huge flavor to the game and made for some of the most memorable moments for me.
Maybe the only way to make everyone happy is to just have a server for people who want all these restrictions. I'll be completely honest with you though, you're going to be pretty lonely over there and most likely after a year or so the server will be merged with a regular one.
This post is probably riddled with spelling and grammitcal errors, sorry to any nazi's out there. No time to check it, im out the door to see the new Star Wars. I'll be back in 2 hours with a new post and all the spoilers I can remember...stay tuned!
>I WANT people to have the option to train/snub/and general be a dick if they want. This adds huge flavor to the game and made for some of the most memorable moments for me.<
It adds huge flavor and memorable moments for me too. The flavor tastes awful and and the memories are disgusting.
In my humble opinion, EQ was the greatest MMO ever made. I believe it was great because it was NOT overly-sanitized. You had a fair amount of freedom to deviate from the designed linear leveling path.
I agree that if there are exploits that allow leveling at a game-breaking rate, that they should be nerfed. However, if it takes 5 hours of PL to gain a level versus grinding for 8 or soloing for 16, I think it is acceptable, because a high-level character is sacraficing their time and effort for the benefit of a much lower-level character.
Semi off topic, I am staunchly against any "mentoring" system.