https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/
"With Pantheon there will not be a 'rush to the final levels'. Firstly, if you were even able to do that, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. "
Sounds to me like the realities of the game world are going to negate a lot of power leveling.
Thanakos said:https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/
"With Pantheon there will not be a 'rush to the final levels'. Firstly, if you were even able to do that, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. "
Same things were said for EQ. What you didn't have were skills which were pretty easy to come by. In Pantheon I expect that you will have to go back to farm climate gear and such or have it crafted at the least but we shall see.
Enitzu said:Same things were said for EQ. What you didn't have were skills which were pretty easy to come by. In Pantheon I expect that you will have to go back to farm climate gear and such or have it crafted at the least but we shall see.
I thought they were going to try some sort of horizontal leveling system though..I'd want to know what they mean by that before saying everyone is gonna rush to the end.
I mean, look at games like planetside 2 where end game players, minus skill, are only like 50% stronger than new players. What if Pantheon did something like that?
Just taking a guess at what he meant, I'm thinking climate/situational gear may be required to experience in certain areas. I also think spells and abilities may need to be acquired from all over the world, and quests that provide essential skills or gear that must be completed if you are going to be effective. Time will tell.
I think it's impossible to eliminate a "rush to the endgame". Any two given players will have different play schedule, drive, game knowledge, and even luck. That it is ipractically impossible for two players to follow a perfectly linear path from character creation to endgame necessarily implies that there is a route for players to rush through.
Acquisition of climate gear, acquisition of spells, completion of quests, etc. are all subject to being completed at a more rapid pace than a more casual player. Unless you add artificial restrictions like "you can only gain one level per 24 hour period", it is naive to think otherwise.
I will be rushing to the endgame regardless of how compelling the content is and I guarantee that I will be among the first 5% to hit max level. I can experience all of the earlier game content on alts if I find it to be that compelling. That's just the nature of gaming.
I've enjoyed reading the thoughtful responses here, and, a hundred or so posts later, I do agree that reasonable minds could differ on this one. But there are still a few points on which I think there is a clear answer, and there is still one big thing I think you're overlooking, Enitzu/Liav/others, related to the "economy" I am saying is affected by power leveling. So I'll keep trying . . .
Gnog said: Enitzu, Do you really think it's impossible to design game mechanics that prevent power leveling?
Enitzu said: No it's not impossible. We could force people to be grouped in order to have spells cast on them which would prevent people healing outside of group. But then we would still need to find a way to stop people from nearly killing mobs then zoning/fd and letting others finish it. As I said, people will ALWAYS find a way around the road blocks. They do in every single game ever made.
This one is pretty easy. One simple solution is that you can give xp based on damage actually done. If a high level toon burns a pack of mobs down to 5%, and the low-level toon finishes the 5%, then the low level toon gets 5% of the normal experience for actually killing the mob. More generally, a bit of vigilance in monitoring PLevel workaround and making hotfixes should be effective. The potential for exploitation is not a reason to give up trying altogether.
Gnog said: Do you really think that power leveling has no effect on the server's economy?
Enitzu said: Please explain to me what effect PLing has on the economy. If I chose to PL someone at say frenzy in Lguk would that change anything? Because whether or not I was PLing someone I could obviously solo that camp if I so chose to. So in effect the economy has not changed at all. So what is it? Is it having another person higher up to farm items? Would that create an imbalance that would begin to flood the market and kill pricing?
When I say "economy" here, I am speaking broadly of the market for goods (items) and services (healing, tanking, nuking, dps'ing, porting, etc.) that can be offered by one player to another on Terminus. I am also speaking broadly of the competition among players for scarce resources on Terminus (rare spawns, rare loot, xp farming locations, raid targets, Codex items, epic drop items). In your response, you seem to be thinking only of the goods economy. But PLeveling has a much bigger affect on the services economy and the competition among players for scarce resources. Here are some examples:
Gnog said: Would you support an MMO in which there was an option to transform any class into any other class, with a five-minute timer?
Enitzu said: How does this apply? Like at all. We are talking about a PL which even if you do PL there is no way in hell you would even go from 1-max in a day much less 5 mins. In order to PL a character up you are taking away a lot of time from another person. Time in which said person will likely be falling asleep from boredom. That's quite a bit different than clicking a button and changing a class.
The question was deliberately tangential. This question applies because it is just an extreme version of PLeveling for purposes of filling raid positions, which you (and others) have stated will be one of the primary purposes of PL. As you put it, "If the progeny system isn't worth it then we will be PLing alts to be able to swap into raid when/if needed." In other words, you will use PLeveling to enable a smaller group of players (your guild) to expand their versatility and general power (through PLeveled alts) in order to deny content (raid targets, rare spawns, etc.) from other players. This has a major affect on the economy for player services and the competition for rare spawns. If you prevent PL, you create a different state of competition among top-level guilds on the server. Two of your healers quit the game or left your guild? When then you need to recruit someone new, or you need to (gasp) actually suffer a real consequence of losing players from your guild. In a world without PL, every max-level character is in higher demand (for guilds, groups, etc.), there is real value to leveling a character to max-level (both in the services economy and in the status economy), and there are real consequences to losing players from your guild or not having the right class composition within your guild. Now we can still debate whether these are "good" or "bad" effects, but I hope we can all agree that PL does affect the "economy," broadly defined.
Liav said: I think it's impossible to eliminate a "rush to the endgame". Any two given players will have different play schedule, drive, game knowledge, and even luck. That it is ipractically impossible for two players to follow a perfectly linear path from character creation to endgame necessarily implies that there is a route for players to rush through.
Acquisition of climate gear, acquisition of spells, completion of quests, etc. are all subject to being completed at a more rapid pace than a more casual player. Unless you add artificial restrictions like "you can only gain one level per 24 hour period", it is naive to think otherwise.
I totally agree that players who invest way more time should be rewarded. And I don't expect or want "casual" players to be able to complete content at the same pace as "rush-to-endgame" players. What I'm saying is that PL has a major affect on a server economies (goods, services, competition for content) and the status-value of a maximum-level character, and I strongly believe that, all things considered, those effects are a net "bad."
Gnog said:I totally agree that players who invest way more time should be rewarded. And I don't expect or want "casual" players to be able to complete content at the same pace as "rush-to-endgame" players. What I'm saying is that PL has a major affect on a server economies (goods, services, competition for content) and the status-value of a maximum-level character, and I strongly believe that, all things considered, those effects are a net "bad."
I understand your point of view, I just prefer facts to beliefs when making a hard call on something like this. Is there solid evidence that PLing has a major effect on server economies, outside of being another commodity to spend money on? Is being a high level player ever actually going to have a high status-value in an MMO, considering it hasn't in any game for years? Is utilizing content for the purpose of powerleveling in some way a less legitimate use of that content than a group of X separate players, or a box group? I've seen people who have played the same character for 10 years and still can't perform competently, so should the competence of a freshly powerleveled max level toon even be a consideration? Someone who is extremely good at the game could probably master a new class in less time than it would take to level it from scratch,.
Even if you answer yes to all of these questions, does that necessarily make powerleveling a negative?
I would argue that selling PL services is a great way to build community and encourage currency exchange between players. I would argue that having an avenue to level third+ alts in a more streamlined manner than repeating the same early game content 3+ times is great.
I too have really enjoyed reading the discussion. Some excellent points made on both sides of the fence. Here are some of my thoughts that I thought I would contribute:
1. There is something to be said for higher level characters interacting with lower level characters in realistic ways. What I mean by this is that there is just a 'cool' and an 'awe' factor when you a higher level character swings by a lowbie zone and blesses a lowbie with his/her tremendous power. I remember very fondly when this occured to me and I always left the situation feeling a sense of both awe towards this higher level character just knowing what they went through to get to thier level and also excitement looking foward to the day when I might join thier ranks of power and maybe even return the favor and have others look upon me as I looked upon that character.
I think that putting artificial controls in place so that higher level characters could not instill thier power on others would really hurt this potential bridge between low / new players and the experience / high level players. Not to mention that I just personally hate the idea of artificial controls like this. You mean I am uber and can bless my powers on others like me who are uber; however, I am unable to grant my powers on the lower classes! What is THAT all about!
2. Im not conviced that power leveling is such a pervasive issue that it requires controls to be put in place for it. Will there be people and top end guilds that eventually take alts from 1 to cap by PL in a short amount of time? Yes, I absolutely believe that will happen. However, Im not convinced that so many people will be participating in this type of activity that it would end up having negative effects on the game as a whole.
I used to power level, and be power leveled, but I also never did it from 1 to cap. I might hang out with a friend and bang through a few levels here and there, but by in large, it wasnt something that I did as a matter of fact. And it also never bothered me doing so seeing as my primary character I leveled 100% naturally from 1 to cap.
Liav said:
I understand your point of view, I just prefer facts to beliefs when making a hard call on something like this. Is there solid evidence that PLing has a major effect on server economies, outside of being another commodity to spend money on?
I have not performed an empirical study measuring the effects of PL on an MMO economy. But nor have you, so we are both drawing on the best tools we have--reasoning based on experience. :)
Liav said: Is being a high level player ever actually going to have a high status-value in an MMO, considering it hasn't in any game for years?
I hope so. Saying "it hasn't in any game for years" doesn't do much for me here, since PRF is premised on the idea that modern MMOs are not any good.
Liav said: Is utilizing content for the purpose of powerleveling in some way a less legitimate use of that content than a group of X separate players, or a box group?
Yes, absolutely less legitimate. Is using dynamite to catch fish in some way less legitimate than using bait and tackle? Hell yes, if the idea is to make sure there are enough fish for everyone to enjoy the fishing. A true-box group, without any botting or conditional scripting, does not bother me as much, because the combat gameplay will supposedly be difficult enough that boxing more than 1 additional toon is not viable for challenging content.
Liav said: I've seen people who have played the same character for 10 years and still can't perform competently, so should the competence of a freshly powerleveled max level toon even be a consideration? Someone who is extremely good at the game could probably master a new class in less time than it would take to level it from scratch,.
I don't think that player "skill" is a reason to prevent PL. I agree with you on this.
Liav said: Even if you answer yes to all of these questions, does that necessarily make powerleveling a negative?
No, not "necessarily" as a logical matter. But, all things considered, for the reasons we've been over, I think it's a negative.
Gnog said:I have not performed an empirical study measuring the effects of PL on an MMO economy. But nor have you, so we are both drawing on the best tools we have--reasoning based on experience. :)
Fair enough.
Gnog said:I hope so. Saying "it hasn't in any game for years" doesn't do much for me here, since PRF is premised on the idea that modern MMOs are not any good.
Semantics, but worth adding "to the target audience" to the end of that sentence.
Gnog said:Yes, absolutely less legitimate. Is using dynamite to catch fish in some way less legitimate than using bait and tackle? Hell yes, if the idea is to make sure there are enough fish for everyone to enjoy the fishing. A true-box group, without any botting or conditional scripting, does not bother me as much, because the combat gameplay will supposedly be difficult enough that boxing more than 1 additional toon is not viable for challenging content.
I don't dispute that botting and conditional scripting are bad, however I fail to see the relevance that has to powerleveling.
Gnog said:I don't think that player "skill" is a reason to prevent PL. I agree with you on this.
Common ground!
I found PLing in EQ to be a great way to build friendships and hangout with Guildies/Friends. As a Druid I'd often join my guild by running around with them buffing them while they went to town on leveling. It helped pass the time, and allowed me who didn't want to level a new guy to still have fun with them. It also helped me meet new people, and make friends. A lot of those new people I met joined the guild to hangout with us more.
Can it be abused. Of Course... but can't everything. Setting up rules upon rules just to limit players doesn't really allow you to enjoy the Open World as much...
I believe they should go with the Old EQ style.
You guys are absolutely right. All these stupid rules. why can't I have a button that says "level up from 1-60 in 30 seconds"...I want it and rules suck. I can't even pay some chinese kid in a sweatshop money to level my character up for me because that's considered bad! well it doesnt hurt you so why do you care? I want Pantheon for free too...With free food, shelter, and a good computer to best enjoy the game. But everyone insists I buy these things! What happened to "sandbox" and "open world"?
Edit: the above is said in complete jest to make a point that rules are, in fact, necessary.
Can we please accept that the game needs to figure out exactly where to draw lines (Is powerleveling unfair to regular levelers or not?) rather than deciding all rules limit players and are therefor bad?
BeaverBiscuit said:You guys are absolutely right. All these stupid rules. why can't I have a button that says "level up from 1-60 in 30 seconds"...I want it and rules suck. I can't even pay some chinese kid in a sweatshop money to level my character up for me because that's considered bad! well it doesnt hurt you so why do you care? I want Pantheon for free too...With free food, shelter, and a good computer to best enjoy the game. But everyone insists I buy these things! What happened to "sandbox" and "open world"?
Edit: the above is said in complete jest to make a point that rules are, in fact, necessary.
Nice strawman. But at least you can divert all of the blame for a pure trollpost by just saying "complete jest". How adult of you.
BeaverBiscuit said:Can we please accept that the game needs to figure out exactly where to draw lines (Is powerleveling unfair to regular levelers or not?) rather than deciding all rules limit players and are therefor bad?
I don't think anyone disputed that the game needs rules. We're debating whether or not powerleveling is good for the game and its players.
If you want to take part in the discussion, then quote the post and address the points. Don't just fill up a post with sarcasm.
Gnog said:I've enjoyed reading the thoughtful responses here, and, a hundred or so posts later, I do agree that reasonable minds could differ on this one. But there are still a few points on which I think there is a clear answer, and there is still one big thing I think you're overlooking, Enitzu/Liav/others, related to the "economy" I am saying is affected by power leveling. So I'll keep trying . . .
Gnog said: Enitzu, Do you really think it's impossible to design game mechanics that prevent power leveling?
Enitzu said: No it's not impossible. We could force people to be grouped in order to have spells cast on them which would prevent people healing outside of group. But then we would still need to find a way to stop people from nearly killing mobs then zoning/fd and letting others finish it. As I said, people will ALWAYS find a way around the road blocks. They do in every single game ever made.This one is pretty easy. One simple solution is that you can give xp based on damage actually done. If a high level toon burns a pack of mobs down to 5%, and the low-level toon finishes the 5%, then the low level toon gets 5% of the normal experience for actually killing the mob. More generally, a bit of vigilance in monitoring PLevel workaround and making hotfixes should be effective. The potential for exploitation is not a reason to give up trying altogether.
Gnog said: Do you really think that power leveling has no effect on the server's economy?
Enitzu said: Please explain to me what effect PLing has on the economy. If I chose to PL someone at say frenzy in Lguk would that change anything? Because whether or not I was PLing someone I could obviously solo that camp if I so chose to. So in effect the economy has not changed at all. So what is it? Is it having another person higher up to farm items? Would that create an imbalance that would begin to flood the market and kill pricing?When I say "economy" here, I am speaking broadly of the market for goods (items) and services (healing, tanking, nuking, dps'ing, porting, etc.) that can be offered by one player to another on Terminus. I am also speaking broadly of the competition among players for scarce resources on Terminus (rare spawns, rare loot, xp farming locations, raid targets, Codex items, epic drop items). In your response, you seem to be thinking only of the goods economy. But PLeveling has a much bigger affect on the services economy and the competition among players for scarce resources. Here are some examples:
- If you allow PLeveling, there will be many, many more boxed characters for buffing, porting, healing, and so on. The existence of those extra toons will diminish the value of those same services provided by characters that are leveled naturally, thereby reducing the in-game value of all of the time invested by those other players to level their character normally.
- If you allow PLeveling, you dramatically change the state of competition for rare spawning mobs, raid targets, epic quest items (assuming there are epic quests), Living Codex items and so on. Do you, Mr. normal player, need a rare spwaning mob for your epic? Well, sorry, but there are 6 PLevel'd alts who also need that item. No, they haven't spent the last six months leveling their toon like you did (they started it last week, actually, and then laid waste to a few zones with the help of a "pit crew") but now they're the same level as you, and they need your epic spawn. But enjoy the wait. Same thing for epic mobs and Living Codex items (assuming those are limited in supply). Also changes competition for endgame content and raid targets (addressed below).
- If you allow PLeveling, there will be more competition in lower level zones for camp sites, and the PLevelers will be able to take those camp sites at their whim because they will be competing on totally imbalanced terms. Full or partial groups of players, all of whom are paying to play the game, will be denied camps by PLevelers who are laying waste to entire zones for PLeveling.
- If you allow PLeveling, you diminsh the status/social value of character progression. Now, if you've transcended to pure enlightenment and do not assign any value whatsoever to social worth or status, then this argument does nothing for you. But if you are merely mortal like the rest of us, and you do assign some value to being admired, needed, or impressed by others in your community, then you must acknowledge that PLeveling will debase the status/social value of character progression. You have a Level 50 (or whatever) Warrior? Well, that's not very impressive, given that I have six max-level characters and can churn them out in a few days of exploiting xp workarounds.
I agree that these types of conversations are exactly what we need to be having right now. I enjoy debating these topics not only for our sake but so that the dev's can see both opposing points of view from different people who all want the best for the game. Whether or not these types of rules are implemented changes nothing for me. I will play the game and I will still do the things I've said. But with that being said, I'll reply to each of your statements.
Giving xp based on % dmg done is a very impractical way to attempt to handle things. If this was actually a thing, healers and tanks would be at a disadvantage simply for playing key roles since they will not ever come close to the dps of say a rogue or wizard. So this could have adverse unintended side effects. Even if you were to say all members get xp shared equally in group, you are still talking about multiple coding processes depending on whether or not you happen to be in a group which allows for a much larger margin for error. Yes it is totally possible to do but there would be a need for tons of work-arounds to completely prevent powerleveling. And considering how many times the playerbase finds ways around things in current gaming, it would need to be constantly updated. The next problem would end up being "well so and so found a way to PL which has now been fixed but they already gained 40 levels off it so why cant I?" it's a never ending circle.
In terms of economy effects ...
It's already been stated that boxing will not be prevented. We may not be able to write macros/scripts to control multiple toons but I know that I can quite easily run 3-4 without ever using a script/macro/program. So to think that people will not be boxing on day 1 is really a pipe dream. It will happen. People will have multiple max level toons within the first month (depending on how long it actually takes to hit max. But considering Wildstar was supposed to take ~120 hours according to most people and we did it in 25 I fully expect to see max levels toons within 2 weeks).
Competition for targets is always going to be a thing. Whether or not PLing is allowed. This is really all dependant on how the devs decide to do things. They could easily put in a multi tag system where as long as you do dmg to a quest mob you can loot the quest items. There are tons of ways to prevent having to camp mobs for days. Personally I would prefer not having to camp for days as I don't have the time like I used to. Competition in terms of camps that PLer's can take from people ... I know when I have Pl'd most of my toons I tended to avoid popular spots simply due to having more mobs. I would pick uncommon areas that normally had little to no people in them to avoid these things. Not that it can't or won't happen but I am saying they have more than 1 place to level. This all ends up being, again, dependant on how the devs handle it. Also on what realm you choose to play on. If you choose the highest pop realms then you are basically agreeing to the competition (if there are multiple realms which I assume there will be).
This theoretical value placed on admiration of a max level character maybe a thing for the first few months but after that (realistically when people would be PLing alts) it would be nearly meaningless. Once you start to have guilds all at max level that whole "oh shiny" feeling when seeing someone at max is gone. So this plays little part into the argument at all in my opinion.
Gnog said:Gnog said: Would you support an MMO in which there was an option to transform any class into any other class, with a five-minute timer?
Enitzu said: How does this apply? Like at all. We are talking about a PL which even if you do PL there is no way in hell you would even go from 1-max in a day much less 5 mins. In order to PL a character up you are taking away a lot of time from another person. Time in which said person will likely be falling asleep from boredom. That's quite a bit different than clicking a button and changing a class.
The question was deliberately tangential. This question applies because it is just an extreme version of PLeveling for purposes of filling raid positions, which you (and others) have stated will be one of the primary purposes of PL. As you put it, "If the progeny system isn't worth it then we will be PLing alts to be able to swap into raid when/if needed." In other words, you will use PLeveling to enable a smaller group of players (your guild) to expand their versatility and general power (through PLeveled alts) in order to deny content (raid targets, rare spawns, etc.) from other players. This has a major affect on the economy for player services and the competition for rare spawns. If you prevent PL, you create a different state of competition among top-level guilds on the server. Two of your healers quit the game or left your guild? When then you need to recruit someone new, or you need to (gasp) actually suffer a real consequence of losing players from your guild. In a world without PL, every max-level character is in higher demand (for guilds, groups, etc.), there is real value to leveling a character to max-level (both in the services economy and in the status economy), and there are real consequences to losing players from your guild or not having the right class composition within your guild. Now we can still debate whether these are "good" or "bad" effects, but I hope we can all agree that PL does affect the "economy," broadly defined.
Every high end raiding guild in every game I have ever played has done this. Hell currently in WoW we require having 2 raid ready alts upon new content to split run 3 raids to start for gearing. To think that this hardcore mindset will not come into Pantheon is a bit crazy. It's even more imperative to use this mindset here for the reasons you listed. Let's say they do cap the raids to 32 (hypothetical). That means having a min of 5 clerics in guild will be a thing. If 2 of those leave and we have 2 dps that can swap to clerics and bring in extra dps then we still have the option to raid. That is going to be a thing whether PLing is in or not. Thinking it won't be is again a pipe dream. I am not saying that most people who just want to play the game casually won't do these things because they certainly won't but to think that the hardcore guilds pushing for world first type stuff won't is flat out wrong. Competition among the top guilds will still be a thing because of this. Those guilds that can have this flexibility will prevail over thsoe that do not.
Basically, you are putting value on something that after a month or 2 will have zero value what so ever. Outside of the progeny system, PLing has no consequence to the economy. If you think this is an issue then I think your priorities are totally off base. You should be more worried about the 6-12 box mages rather than the people PLing alts because they are the ones who can and will destroy economies.
I think you've addressed most of my points, Enitzu, and I am open to the possibility that PL will not have a major effect on the economies in Terminus. I do also think, however, that only time will tell, and the concerns that have been raised in this thread are worth considering when designing game incentives and mechanics that incentivize and enable EQ-style power leveling. If you are right that PL does not become a major detraction from gameplay or the economy, I will be glad to be proven wrong on this score. But I have my reservations. Just one last comment.
Enitzu said: Basically, you are putting value on something that after a month or 2 will have zero value what so ever. Outside of the progeny system, PLing has no consequence to the economy. If you think this is an issue then I think your priorities are totally off base. You should be more worried about the 6-12 box mages rather than the people PLing alts because they are the ones who can and will destroy economies.
As for whether I am placing too much value on PL, I think the caveat in your response--i.e., "outside of the progeny system"--dodges a key concern of PL in Pantheon, and that is the progeny system. If running players through multiple "lives" to reap the benefits of Progeny becomes a prerequisite for high-end raiding guilds, the downsides of PLeveling may be much greater than you seem to be predicting. Again, this will be a question of degree, and I suppose only time will tell whether the concerns of allowing PL in the Progeny system will have major downsides for gameplay or the economy.
Now as for priorities, I suppose I don't really disagree. But I wasn't taking on mage armies here. Where is the thread for that?
Liav said:Just found the best argument against the progeny system yet. Thanks.
How so? We haven't released any information on the Progeny system yet, so I am not sure what the argument would be or why anyone would be against it until we release more information on how we intend it to work.
Liav said:
Just found the best argument against the progeny system yet. Thanks.
Kilsin said: How so? We haven't released any information on the Progeny system yet, so I am not sure what the argument would be or why anyone would be against it until we release more information on how we intend it to work.
I think the concern is that, if the progeny system rewards a sacrificed character with enhanced base statistics or other permanent advantages that make them more effective in end-game content, then progeny sacrifices will become a widespread custom among end-game raiding guilds. But those end-game raiding guilds will not be using the progeny system to re-live lower level content on a new character, they'll be doing so to reap the benefits of the sacrifice, and they'll be motivated to zoom their progeny toons through lower level content to catch them back up to the maximum level (whatever that may be). The following post, pulled from the ongoing Progeny System thread (https://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you/view/page/7), lays this out in pretty candid terms (emphasis added):
Sypderoptik said: As a power gamer and min-maxer by nature (as is most of my guild), I can assure you we'll be doing everything we can to blast our members through the Progeny bonus(es) as rapidly as possible to catch people back up (if sacrificing a main is required) unless there is an AA system offering equal types of gains. If roster holes appear from any sort of system, you can be sure a focused effort will be dumped into rotating people through the bonuses.
I urge they release some information regarding an AA system soon as a counter-option to the Progeny system giving two different playstyles an alternate way to advance. One where you redo old content and one where you do level appropriate content. For some people it's more about meeting new people (old content:Progeny) and for others it's more about staying with people you know (level appropriate:AA).
I've already been in talks with officers and members in how we want to rotate people through a couple different Progeny mechanic scenarios should the bonuses be desirable. It's not going to be a lot of fun for truly new people with a pit crew following members to catch them back up. The new people aren't likely to get the same benefits (and likely don't want those benefits either). It's going to be worlds colliding likely more than what traditional PL of a friend or an alt would be when it comes to a guild member being raced back up with a pit crew attached. The resources available at a guild's disposal is more significant than one or two random people pushing somebody through levels.
As I noted in that other thread, which seems to be dovetailing with this one to some extent . . .
Gnog said: Please read Spyderoptik's post above and take it seriously as a clear warning of the destructive potential of combining the Progeny system with game mechanics that allow Power Leveling. His post clearly describes a world dominated at ALL levels by hardcore gamers and their "pit crews" of boxed PLevel characters running roughshod through every good XP zone in the game, in order to zoom Progeny chars back to max level. Incentivizing and allowing that kind of gameplay would be awful for this game, and it should be prevented through good mechanics.
Here is another idea: Instead of giving Progeny higher stats, give them an XP modifier that increases with the level of the sacrificed character. Combine this with the effective prevention of power leveling using "pit crews" and other totally trivializing mechanics. These two mechanics would enable players to re-roll a new class and level more quickly as a reward for already hitting higher levels on the sac'd character, but without incentivizing "pit crew" based power leveling that debases the value of organic character leveling and transforms every zone into the hardcore guild's Progeny PLeveling wasteland.
Although it's true that you have not released a great deal of detail on the progeny system (and, to be sure, the implementation could render these concerns moot), the above excerpts lay out the basic concern with offering (a) a progeny system that confers permanent, end-game-relevant benefits on sacrificed characters, along with (b) experience/level-up mechanics that allow robust EQ-style power leveling techniques.
One anecdote I'll add is that, recently, on the Everquest "true box" TLP server, I watched a group of at least 12 toons all on /follow behind a single monk in Old Seb. There was one group of 60s (apparently being boxed by a single person, given the auto-follow function being used), and one group of lower level toons getting PLeveled. The 60s group were training half of the zone into a kill zone, where they 60's pullled agro with spells and bard-songs that did not give them credit for damage (for exp purposes) while wearing a 130+ damage shield. While the mobs all committed suicide on the damage shield, the low-level toons merely had to "tag" the mobs with some nominal AE damage to receive full exp credit for the kills. This went on for some time, and effectively prevented the other players in the zone from enjoying that zone. The PL "pit crew" was all anon, and presumably could give a damn about the reputational consequences of this kind of gameplay. This kind of leveling is very common in EQ today, and is taking place almost every day in the best exp zones. If Pantheon allows these kinds of extremely powerful Power Leveling techniques, and also incentivizes end-game guilds to use those techniques to zoom progeny through their levels, it will do collateral damage (perhaps major collateral damage) to the leveling and grouping experience of the other players on the shard who are trying to progress their characters normally.
Gnog said it all for me, but one thing I'd like to dispute.
Grieg's End is the current best XP zone on Phinigel, and it can't be AE pulled. The Deep is the most popular AE spot on Phinny and it's an utterly garbage zone for XP outside of AE pulling. It is also riddled with mobs to pull. Zone disruption as a result of AE PLing isn't really a thing. Who cares about Sebilis during Luclin?
Gnog said:Liav said:
Just found the best argument against the progeny system yet. Thanks.
Kilsin said: How so? We haven't released any information on the Progeny system yet, so I am not sure what the argument would be or why anyone would be against it until we release more information on how we intend it to work.I think the concern is that, if the progeny system rewards a sacrificed character with enhanced base statistics or other permanent advantages that make them more effective in end-game content, then progeny sacrifices will become a widespread custom among end-game raiding guilds. But those end-game raiding guilds will not be using the progeny system to re-live lower level content on a new character, they'll be doing so to reap the benefits of the sacrifice, and they'll be motivated to zoom their progeny toons through lower level content to catch them back up to the maximum level (whatever that may be). The following post, pulled from the ongoing Progeny System thread (https://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3056/the-progeny-system-what-say-you/view/page/7), lays this out in pretty candid terms (emphasis added):
Sypderoptik said: As a power gamer and min-maxer by nature (as is most of my guild), I can assure you we'll be doing everything we can to blast our members through the Progeny bonus(es) as rapidly as possible to catch people back up (if sacrificing a main is required) unless there is an AA system offering equal types of gains. If roster holes appear from any sort of system, you can be sure a focused effort will be dumped into rotating people through the bonuses.
I urge they release some information regarding an AA system soon as a counter-option to the Progeny system giving two different playstyles an alternate way to advance. One where you redo old content and one where you do level appropriate content. For some people it's more about meeting new people (old content:Progeny) and for others it's more about staying with people you know (level appropriate:AA).
I've already been in talks with officers and members in how we want to rotate people through a couple different Progeny mechanic scenarios should the bonuses be desirable. It's not going to be a lot of fun for truly new people with a pit crew following members to catch them back up. The new people aren't likely to get the same benefits (and likely don't want those benefits either). It's going to be worlds colliding likely more than what traditional PL of a friend or an alt would be when it comes to a guild member being raced back up with a pit crew attached. The resources available at a guild's disposal is more significant than one or two random people pushing somebody through levels.As I noted in that other thread, which seems to be dovetailing with this one to some extent . . .
Gnog said: Please read Spyderoptik's post above and take it seriously as a clear warning of the destructive potential of combining the Progeny system with game mechanics that allow Power Leveling. His post clearly describes a world dominated at ALL levels by hardcore gamers and their "pit crews" of boxed PLevel characters running roughshod through every good XP zone in the game, in order to zoom Progeny chars back to max level. Incentivizing and allowing that kind of gameplay would be awful for this game, and it should be prevented through good mechanics.
Here is another idea: Instead of giving Progeny higher stats, give them an XP modifier that increases with the level of the sacrificed character. Combine this with the effective prevention of power leveling using "pit crews" and other totally trivializing mechanics. These two mechanics would enable players to re-roll a new class and level more quickly as a reward for already hitting higher levels on the sac'd character, but without incentivizing "pit crew" based power leveling that debases the value of organic character leveling and transforms every zone into the hardcore guild's Progeny PLeveling wasteland.Although it's true that you have not released a great deal of detail on the progeny system (and, to be sure, the implementation could render these concerns moot), the above excerpts lay out the basic concern with offering (a) a progeny system that confers permanent, end-game-relevant benefits on sacrificed characters, along with (b) experience/level-up mechanics that allow robust EQ-style power leveling techniques.
One anecdote I'll add is that, recently, on the Everquest "true box" TLP server, I watched a group of at least 12 toons all on /follow behind a single monk in Old Seb. There was one group of 60s (apparently being boxed by a single person, given the auto-follow function being used), and one group of lower level toons getting PLeveled. The 60s group were training half of the zone into a kill zone, where they 60's pullled agro with spells and bard-songs that did not give them credit for damage (for exp purposes) while wearing a 130+ damage shield. While the mobs all committed suicide on the damage shield, the low-level toons merely had to "tag" the mobs with some nominal AE damage to receive full exp credit for the kills. This went on for some time, and effectively prevented the other players in the zone from enjoying that zone. The PL "pit crew" was all anon, and presumably could give a damn about the reputational consequences of this kind of gameplay. This kind of leveling is very common in EQ today, and is taking place almost every day in the best exp zones. If Pantheon allows these kinds of extremely powerful Power Leveling techniques, and also incentivizes end-game guilds to use those techniques to zoom progeny through their levels, it will do collateral damage (perhaps major collateral damage) to the leveling and grouping experience of the other players on the shard who are trying to progress their characters normally.
I understand your thoughts but these are premature fears that a lot of people have, we have given a small description of what we would like the system to be but as with anything, it is not set in stone, it is just an idea that we had to help keep low to mid game populated and fun but systems like this don't get thrown in without thought, we have a fine balance in mind for this system and how it works with the rest of the world and all of the systems, mechanics, and features we have included (some of which you folks still have not heard about), if there are any issues with it in testing, if we decide to go with it, it would be altered or removed but I just hope people are not against it strictly due to the idea that if someone makes the ultimate sacrifice to retire their character and then start fresh as that character's son or daughter with a very small benefit to doing so, just because they don't want to give up their main character but also don't want to miss out on the small benefit, which is what I have been hearing a lot.
Not everything is going to be equal in-game, we will balance things to the best of our ability but in cases like this, the small benefit would be very much deserved, even if it is a small % exp gain to crafting (if your mother/father was a master crafter, for example) as they would have had that ability/skill in their bloodline, it may even help unlock some tougher recipes or blueprints earlier than normal but again, that person would have already unlocked them the first time around the hard way, so this should not be an issue for an outsider who is worried they are missing out, they have the option to retire their characters for similar benefits too.
For RP purposes, those players will be unlikely to retire their main character but it wouldn't matter anyway, as we can turn the Progeny system off or disable it on the RP servers, same with PvP servers, we could even just dedicate a few main PvE servers to Progeny, all of these details are still being discussed, but to pass judgement on this system with such little information is not only a waste of time, it tarnishes the entire system with a negative incantation that other read and instantly dislike which can render a very interesting and immersive mechanic unwanted without it even being explained, this system in unison with other systems/ features and mechanics that we have in mind, can solve a lot of problems that MMORPGs have today with bottlenecking top end grinds, ghost town low to mid level gameplay, hard to get groups etc. it is ok to express concern but it would be better to wait until we actually release our full intentions and explain the system in full before judging it, though.
Please don't think this is directly targeting you either my friend, I really need this message to get out to everyone reading as the Progeny gets a bad name and no one actually knows what we have planned for it yet, so once we release those details feel free to judge and criticise but until then, I ask that you all please keep an opened mind as we don't implement things like this without thinking them through first.
Kilsin said: Please don't think this is directly targeting you either my friend, I really need this message to get out to everyone reading as the Progeny gets a bad name and no one actually knows what we have planned for it yet, so once we release those details feel free to judge and criticise but until then, I ask that you all please keep an opened mind as we don't implement things like this without thinking them through first.
Hey Kilsin, If you mean me (I can't tell if you mean me or Liav, or someone else, or both), please know that I don't take any offense at all. To the contrary, I appreciate your active reading of the discussions on these boards and your willingness to intervene when you think that unnecessary speculation could create negative impressions. I am totally open to the interesting systems that VR still has in development (including the progeny system) and I would love to have all of my concerns about "power leveling" exploits and the progeny system completely refuted.
I also promise to stop speculating as soon as open testing begins. :)
Gnog said:Kilsin said: Please don't think this is directly targeting you either my friend, I really need this message to get out to everyone reading as the Progeny gets a bad name and no one actually knows what we have planned for it yet, so once we release those details feel free to judge and criticise but until then, I ask that you all please keep an opened mind as we don't implement things like this without thinking them through first.
Hey Kilsin, If you mean me (I can't tell if you mean me or Liav, or someone else, or both), please know that I don't take any offense at all. To the contrary, I appreciate your active reading of the discussions on these boards and your willingness to intervene when you think that unnecessary speculation could create negative impressions. I am totally open to the interesting systems that VR still has in development (including the progeny system) and I would love to have all of my concerns about "power leveling" exploits and the progeny system completely refuted.
I also promise to stop speculating as soon as open testing begins. :)
Haha, thank you for understanding my friend, I love reading all of these ideas and feedback but I want you all to have the most information at hand before you form a decision on something and the Progeny system is one of those things that is more important than people realise and we want to make it work but just don; thave the details to release at this point as we are working on other more important parts of development currently but when we do have more info you folks will be the first to know and I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts when that does happen as I was on the fence too until I understood what the team wanted to achieve with it and how it would work.
Some of these most recent thoughts are something I wish I could comment on. Sadly I will have to wait to have hands on experience to conclude my feelings on things like the Progeny system. From what I heard though if there is potential to play every class on 1 character and the progeny system is the way of doing it, I will absolutely love this system.
Eliseus said:Some of these most recent thoughts are something I wish I could comment on. Sadly I will have to wait to have hands on experience to conclude my feelings on things like the Progeny system. From what I heard though if there is potential to play every class on 1 character and the progeny system is the way of doing it, I will absolutely love this system.
This is perhaps the one system I've heard from VR that I really have reservations about. I'm quite concerned with the long-term implications in may generate. But like you, I'm somewhat reserving judgement until more details are available. I do like the take Kilsin provided though, in the possibility that benefits may be as simple and subtle as being able to recover former skill in a crafting sphere a bit more easily. At end-game it would be largely irrelevent. But it might be enough incentive for someone to make the sacrafice. It wouldnt be to me personally, but it also wouldnt make me feel as though my unwillingness to sacraftice a character I'd invested leaving me at a disadvantage in any way.
