There are a few threads that touch on power leveling (listed below), but I could not find any that directly address the merits and legitimacy of power leveling in an MMO. (If I've missed something, I apologize and would appreciate being pointed to the right thread.)
By "power leveling," I mean classic EQ1-style power leveling, whereby a higher level character (often a druid or enchanter) assists one or more lower level characters in some way that helps them kill NPCs much easier or much faster than they'd be able to do on their own. The classic examples of power leveling, as I understand it, are certain kinds of buffs (chloro, damage shields), chain stunning for AOE, applying additional damage (up to 49% in EQ1) without stealing a kill, and various techniques that exploit zoning.
My view is that an MMO should prevent all of these forms of power leveling and any others that similarly trivialize the leveling process, for two primary reasons.
First, these and similar forms of power leveling contradict the basic notion of an "experience"-based leveling system. The "experience" system is ubiquitous in the RPG genre and, reportedly, will be the primary system for character advancement in Pantheon. As a definitional matter, the term "experience" connotes progression of some kind--the most applicable dictionary definition is probably this one: "practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity." Allowing power leveling contradicts the core notion of "practical knowledge, skill, or practice" at the heart of this system. How much "experience" can any character be fairly deemed to have gained by running mindlessly into a group of mobs who kill themselves by throwing themselves at the max-level damage shield that's been applied to the character? How much "experience" can a nuking class be fairly deemed to have gained by spamming their best AOE spell while a high-level enchanter keeps 50 mobs chain-stunned in a small cluster? How much "experience" can a healing class be fairly deeemd to have gained by nuking and /following through a dungeon because another character brought an "OOG" (out-of-group) max-level healing class to help the group along? Under any common definition of the word "experience," the answer to each of these questions is somewhere between "minimal," "none," and "negative." So why would any MMO depart from the common definition of "experience"? Whatever the explanation is, it has nothing to do with adhering to the common definition of "experience" or the basic idea that any sentient being (whether it be a human IRL, or an avator in a virtual world) learns through practical experience and continually pressing against their own limitations. In other words, the mechanics of classic EQ1-style power leveling are unnatural methods of exploiting programming to circumvent the traditional notion of gaining "experience" through overcoming challenges that are just beyond your comfort zone.
Second, and much more subjectively now, allowing power leveling, on balance, detracts from the MMO experience.
The cons include:
The pros include:
In short, classic E1-style power leveling--and any other method whereby a higher level character assists one or more lower level characters in some way that helps them kill NPCs much easier or much faster than they'd be able to do on their own--should be prevented through good programming. They are all just exploits that should not be rewarded in an "experience"-based progression system.
Your thoughts would be much appreciated. I'm quite sure I haven't thought through all of the angles on this.
Related threads are:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3215/matchmaking/view/page/1 ; (Matchmaking)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1543/mentoring-yea-or-nay/view/post_id/17280 (Mentoring System)
This comes down to so many interesting questions about content longevity and variety, class interdependency, and just plain ol' human behavior. It's a crazy complex topic.
Ideally - your content is varied enough that players will be motivated to play through multiple characters the traditional and planned way. But even in EQ this didn't play out. Often, players found themselves attracted to a specific location (whether due to efficiency or familiarity) to level their character early, and then a straightforward path afterwards. Options were there, but player behavior dictated that they didn't always take advantage of them. Was this because of the very slow leveling curve? The high level of difficulty in game? The perpetual drive to reach in game content? The fear of venturing to new places because of stiff death penalties? Just comfort level (heck, I would rather be in the Faydark or Misty Thicket)? Some of it could even be because wealth accumulation with one character developed to the point that there were no good outlets for that excess cash, so pouring it into a second character made better sense.
I hate the idea of content trivialization, and I really believe that developers should have some form of control over how the content is consumed. But I also worry about strict rules limiting player interaction. As a Druid, there was something very enjoyable about returning to your home zone at a high level and being able to freely cast Skin Like Nature on a low level new player. Yes, it was potentially content breaking, and could easily be abused, but it was also a moment maker, and relationship builder amongst the player base. How to do you effectively restrict the abuse without also eliminating the beneficial interaction?
And the abuse is definitely real. Traziun makes a valid point - we've all been in a group with a character who is level 42 but their abjuration is still 11 because they powered right through all that content.
My overall opinion is that the EQ style was probably better than something as restrictive as the original EQII formula. Yes, it was unregulated - but the negative impact was vastly outweighed by the positive player interaction and replay value that players felt when they could comfortably invest in a new character. Even eliminating all power leveling, there's always someone that doesn't know how to play their class well. And in many ways, having come across a few bad players really helps shine a bright light on those who have invested and played their class very well.
Gnog said:There are a few threads that touch on power leveling (listed below), but I could not find any that directly address the merits and legitimacy of power leveling in an MMO. (If I've missed something, I apologize and would appreciate being pointed to the right thread.)
By "power leveling," I mean classic EQ1-style power leveling, whereby a higher level character (often a druid or enchanter) assists one or more lower level characters in some way that helps them kill NPCs much easier or much faster than they'd be able to do on their own. The classic examples of power leveling, as I understand it, are certain kinds of buffs (chloro, damage shields), chain stunning for AOE, applying additional damage (up to 49% in EQ1) without stealing a kill, and various techniques that exploit zoning.
My view is that an MMO should prevent all of these forms of power leveling and any others that similarly trivialize the leveling process, for two primary reasons.
First, these and similar forms of power leveling contradict the basic notion of an "experience"-based leveling system. The "experience" system is ubiquitous in the RPG genre and, reportedly, will be the primary system for character advancement in Pantheon. As a definitional matter, the term "experience" connotes progression of some kind--the most applicable dictionary definition is probably this one: "practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity." Allowing power leveling contradicts the core notion of "practical knowledge, skill, or practice" at the heart of this system. How much "experience" can any character be fairly deemed to have gained by running mindlessly into a group of mobs who kill themselves by throwing themselves at the max-level damage shield that's been applied to the character? How much "experience" can a nuking class be fairly deemed to have gained by spamming their best AOE spell while a high-level enchanter keeps 50 mobs chain-stunned in a small cluster? How much "experience" can a healing class be fairly deeemd to have gained by nuking and /following through a dungeon because another character brought an "OOG" (out-of-group) max-level healing class to help the group along? Under any common definition of the word "experience," the answer to each of these questions is somewhere between "minimal," "none," and "negative." So why would any MMO depart from the common definition of "experience"? Whatever the explanation is, it has nothing to do with adhering to the common definition of "experience" or the basic idea that any sentient being (whether it be a human IRL, or an avator in a virtual world) learns through practical experience and continually pressing against their own limitations. In other words, the mechanics of classic EQ1-style power leveling are unnatural methods of exploiting programming to circumvent the traditional notion of gaining "experience" through overcoming challenges that are just beyond your comfort zone.
Second, and much more subjectively now, allowing power leveling, on balance, detracts from the MMO experience.
The cons include:
- Power leveling in an instance-free world leads to greater competition (often on unfair terms) for scarce resources (dungeon spawns and loot).
- Power leveling reduces the need for grouping with strangers, which detracts from community building and makes it harder for newer players to find friends and/or guilds.
- Power leveling distorts the supply and demand of character classes at maximum level. Guilds that need additional players of class X can just power level the classes they need instead of opening their ranks to players who selected those classes in the first place and leveled them up naturally.
The pros include:
- Power Leveling keeps the super-hardcore gamers more engaged (?) because they can quickly level their Alts to max level and continue playing with their guild, just as a different class.
- [There are probably more, but I'm sure the proponents of power leveling can supplement.]
In short, classic E1-style power leveling--and any other method whereby a higher level character assists one or more lower level characters in some way that helps them kill NPCs much easier or much faster than they'd be able to do on their own--should be prevented through good programming. They are all just exploits that should not be rewarded in an "experience"-based progression system.
Your thoughts would be much appreciated. I'm quite sure I haven't thought through all of the angles on this.
Related threads are:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3215/matchmaking/view/page/1 ; (Matchmaking)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1543/mentoring-yea-or-nay/view/post_id/17280 (Mentoring System)
If you dont want to PL dont do it, dont try and dictate to others how to play
Gnog said:First, these and similar forms of power leveling contradict the basic notion of an "experience"-based leveling system.The "experience" system is ubiquitous in the RPG genre and, reportedly, will be the primary system for character advancement in Pantheon. As a definitional matter, the term "experience" connotes progression of some kind--the most applicable dictionary definition is probably this one: "practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity." Allowing power leveling contradicts the core notion of "practical knowledge, skill, or practice" at the heart of this system.
This is like saying that an apprentice carpenter or electrician is gaining no practical knowledge or advancement in skills while under the guidance of a journeyman. While yes, many forms of powerleveling do exist that preclude the lower level character participating to any degree really, it need not be that way and stating with blanket assessment that no powerleveling should exist is short sighted and narrow minded.
Gnog said:
- Power leveling in an instance-free world leads to greater competition (often on unfair terms) for scarce resources (dungeon spawns and loot).
Competition is one of the appeals of the game. That aside, if you mean someone being powerleveled taking resources from people of that particular level, it's a dramatically less impacting competition to be in that level range for a relatively short period of time and advancing past it, than if they were to be within that level range for weeks or months.
Gnog said:
- Power leveling distorts the supply and demand of character classes at maximum level. Guilds that need additional players of class X can just power level the classes they need instead of opening their ranks to players who selected those classes in the first place and leveled them up naturally.
And as the game ages through natural progression there are fewer and fewer people in the lower level ranges finding it more and more difficult to locate allies with which to explore dungeons. A guild that needs players can create a guild group of alts if that's what's required, and all the people you mean to protect really see no benefit.
Gnog said:
- [There are probably more, but I'm sure the proponents of power leveling can supplement.]
- People with limited playtime who have nevertheless dedicated years of play to the game and wish to try a new character are not facing as daunting a task of perhaps another year of leveling up to again play with the friends they've developed previously.
- People creating alts provides very beneficial cash and item sinks in the game, removing both coin and gear as they progress and are outfitted in the later levels.
- People (like me) can go out and find a random person struggling to find a group, or struggling to overcome a challenge, and assist. It makes me feel good to help, it makes a person who is frustrated (perhaps to the point of quitting) feel better and learn that there are good people in the game, and builds friendships.
Gnog said:In short, classic E1-style power leveling--and any other method whereby a higher level character assists one or more lower level characters in some way that helps them kill NPCs much easier or much faster than they'd be able to do on their own--should be prevented through good programming. They are all just exploits that should not be rewarded in an "experience"-based progression system.
Yes, some of the powerleveling methods were exploits. Some were seen as serious enough to be patched and prevented at different points in the game's life. Others were recognized as "emergent behavior" that the devs decided were of little consequence. And most notably powerleveling was a means for classes otherwise wholly dependent on a group (like clerics) to gain levels later in the game's life when lower level groups were almost impossible to find.
How does one prevent power leveling? I don't know if you really can without hurting the core design of the game. Look at FFXIV 1.0. They tried to prevent power leveling and it actually drove players away how they did it, yet didn't fully prevent it.
I think depending on the game design power leveling can exist while not creating more incompetance or hurting other players. The way I think this could be done is the implementation of things like Combat skills and the likes. If anyone remembers the old days of FFXI getting combat skills to max level was truly a feat of strength. I know EQ1 had combat skills, but I've never viewed them as difficult to get up. So although people may level to max level fast they still have things they have to do before fully ready. Could even attach things to quests that require you to kill X thing before being able to do Y thing which could require an understanding of the job to succesfully do this.
Basically what I'm saying is it will probably be impossible to prevent power leveling. There is a lot of systems that can be implemented to try and combat the ignorance of a power leveled character. Sadly a lot of people here would disagree with any of them because WoW likeness, while also continue complaining about wanting a way to combat power leveling.
I understand the base concern that many have about power leveling, but you really have to look at the additional issues you create when you start trying to lock down anything and everything.
EQ2 started putting restrictions on everything and it was an epic failure in my opinion. I tend to lean on the side of no artifical constraints, rather then locking it down just because someone may abuse a system or use features in a way they were not intended. Doing so, allows for organic game play that evolves on its own.
Alot of what made EQ1 great was NOT havin all of confines on how the game should be played. Things like fear kiting, quad kiting, we're never intended, but we're alot of fun. Maybe you see buffing some lower level as something game breaking, but I think it's just another element of community. It can be abused, but at that point it can be either ignored or determined to be something that nweds to be adjusted by the dev team. But, we definitely don't need to start locking everything down from the get go and end up killing at of what made early MMOS fun.
Im against any form of bypassing the challenge of content. Including but not limitied to PLing, Zerging, Exploits, and plain old cheating. However these are all very different things. And while I would prefer something like a mentor system instead of PLing. I dont know that I feel so strong about it that Id want to prevent others from doing it. Just like I wouldnt want to prevent others from coming back to a Named at a higher level (not monopolizing it though). So in the case of zerging, and cheating, I definitely would be for preventing either one and definitely punishing cheaters (ban hammer). In the case of exploits, it would greatly depend. There is a fine line between emergent gameplay and exploits. I will leave it to VR to determine what that point is. And if VR says something is an exploit an not just emergent gameplay then dont punish, just patch it.
Back to the real topic at hand: PLing. All I can say is that I wont be doing it, and dont personally like it. But I wont judge others that want to do it, especially if the devs allow or encourage it. Best advise is to make sure you party with folks that dont want to PL. Or if you find yourself in a party that wants to invite a PL, kindly excuse yourself from said party.
@Hannar, Your point:
I hate the idea of content trivialization, and I really believe that developers should have some form of control over how the content is consumed. But I also worry about strict rules limiting player interaction. As a Druid, there was something very enjoyable about returning to your home zone at a high level and being able to freely cast Skin Like Nature on a low level new player. Yes, it was potentially content breaking, and could easily be abused, but it was also a moment maker, and relationship builder amongst the player base. How to do you effectively restrict the abuse without also eliminating the beneficial interaction?"
I think you make a good point about the value of interactions between higher level and lower level characters. And if lower level characters want help completing a quest or working through certain content, it seems pretty logical that a higher level character would not be prevented from helping them with that. But why should the higher level character's assistance translate into faster character progression as measured by experience and level-ups? If character progression operates on a risk vs. reward system, then removing or dramatically reducing the risk (through PL assistance) should reduce the reward.
@Feyshtey, Thanks for the thoughtful response. I think you make some good points and some that are subject to some criticism.
Feyshtey said:
This is like saying that an apprentice carpenter or electrician is gaining no practical knowledge or advancement in skills while under the guidance of a journeyman. While yes, many forms of powerleveling do exist that preclude the lower level character participating to any degree really, it need not be that way and stating with blanket assessment that no powerleveling should exist is short sighted and narrow minded.
The blanket assessment ("no powerleveling shoould exist") gets the dialogue going. I agree that some forms of assistance by higher-level characters should be permitted in an MMO, but I am trying to understand the justification for allowing certain "power leveling" techniques and disallowing others, and I think the right starting point for evaluating those techniques is the acknowledgement that an "experience"-based level-up system that is premised on the notiong of risk-vs-reward should not reward PLevel methods that trivialize content for the lower level players.
Feyshtey said:
Competition is one of the appeals of the game. That aside, if you mean someone being powerleveled taking resources from people of that particular level, it's a dramatically less impacting competition to be in that level range for a relatively short period of time and advancing past it, than if they were to be within that level range for weeks or months.
This argument doesn't work for me. Competition on fair terms is one of the appeals of any game. But competition for a dungeon site or camp site with someone who is PLeveling using a higher level character does not strike me as valuable competition. As for the idea that PLeveling affects competition less because the player zooms through the levels in question, I don't think that makes sense. If PLeveling techniques are prevented, then that same player groups with others and the scarce resources are more fairly distributed, without trivializing content.
Feyshtey said:
And as the game ages through natural progression there are fewer and fewer people in the lower level ranges finding it more and more difficult to locate allies with which to explore dungeons. A guild that needs players can create a guild group of alts if that's what's required, and all the people you mean to protect really see no benefit.
Here you propose a workaround to PLeveling: the creation of alts by an entire group of people, all of whom level up together. Practically speaking, the amount of coordination required for this to happen is much, much greater than the coordination required to PLevel an alt using a second computer or a single friend's assistance. That coordination would be a major barrier to the workaround you describe, and it would probably prevent the workaround in most instances, leaving people to simply group with others, which would promote inclusiveness of other players who are leveling up without PLevel assistance.
Feyshtey said:
- People with limited playtime who have nevertheless dedicated years of play to the game and wish to try a new character are not facing as daunting a task of perhaps another year of leveling up to again play with the friends they've developed previously.
This is a very good point, but it poses a slippery slope. Taken to the extreme, why shouldn't you be able to just freely transform your character from one class into another, maybe once every three months? If extremely effective PLeveling techniques are allowed (the kind that trivialize content and allow a player to zoom through levels without any real risk) then why not just let someone transform their max-level character into another class, or boost another class for $50 or whatever? But that slips into the progression model that debases the hard work that other players invested in progressing their own characters (of the class that the PLeveler wants to be). Moreover, there could be other solutions to the problem you've posed, including (1) a progeny system in which a character is sacrificed to create a new character that earns experience more quickly (but without any content trivialization), (2) an experience system that actually rewards risk--for example, if PLevel techniques are nerfed, then the game could actually reward a group of experienced players who, playing low-level toons, without assistance from higher-level players, accomplish feats in game that are extremely challenging for a group of players at their level; this would enable experienced players to progress more quickly through the lower levels without trivializing content.
Feyshtey said:
People creating alts provides very beneficial cash and item sinks in the game, removing both coin and gear as they progress and are outfitted in the later levels.
There could be other cash and item sinks in the game. Allowing PLeveling is just one of many tools for regulating the in-game economy. Other methods may not have the same drawbacks.
Feyshtey said:
- People (like me) can go out and find a random person struggling to find a group, or struggling to overcome a challenge, and assist. It makes me feel good to help, it makes a person who is frustrated (perhaps to the point of quitting) feel better and learn that there are good people in the game, and builds friendships.
You are welcome to help others in the game. And maybe a "mentoring" system (on which there is another very extensive thread) would allow you to do this without trivializing content. But why should your assistance translate into faster character progression? If you're assisting someone, you're reducing the risk of whatever challenge they are attempting to overcome--shouldn't that also reduce the reward, in terms of character progression, of overcoming it?
Feyshtey said:
Yes, some of the powerleveling methods were exploits. Some were seen as serious enough to be patched and prevented at different points in the game's life. Others were recognized as "emergent behavior" that the devs decided were of little consequence. And most notably powerleveling was a means for classes otherwise wholly dependent on a group (like clerics) to gain levels later in the game's life when lower level groups were almost impossible to find.
At most, this is an argument for allowing some forms of assistance by higher levels of lower levels. But why should that assistance allow the lower level players to zoom through levels, when the assistance also minimizes the risk of every challenge along the way?
I am going to bypass the 'should we' or 'shouldnt we' for PL-ing. In my view, a PL'd character becomes a 2D parody of a 'true' character. It is nothing but the minimal core skills and abilities in a generic class package being (mostly) driven by a pilot who knows none of the nuances of playing it adeptly. Other than this, I am ambivalent on the matter.
Here I illustrate a potential method to reduce PL'ing.
I approach it by suggesting that the mechanisms from which characters base their power are ones that have specific requirements that take both time and effort to gain.
Imagine if you could not wield level 30+ wizzy spells unless you had fired 1000 level 20 firebolts (this is a silly and arbitrary non-example just for the sake of illustration). What I mean to illustrate is that there could be some 'achievement' needed to be accomplished for some level-based class ability usages - something that should be easily achieveable just by levelling in a normal way. It would only be felt as a 'chore' by those who levelled too quickly - Eg by power levelling. If the (set of) achievements for levels 20, 30, 40 and 50 are all things that would be accomplished without specific effort by the player in the normal course of levelling, then they would have no real impact on 99.9% of the player-base.
These, then, set an upper limit on the levelling rate (tuned to be above the typical 99.9% of players) without having to grind away at these extra achievements. With tuning, and a large set of these criteria at regular intervals, you would put a dent in any PL'ing speed achievable. It would also impact extreme twinking.
So, it is possible to exclusively punish PL'ers without having to bother to ban them or implement special locks on engagements and loot. It would act as a speed-bump on levelling. With enough of them, the impact could be severe.
The problem with PLing a class new to a player is the player, most often, doesn't experience team play in the process which leads to deficiencies in proficiency at higher levels. The simple solution to this is to note it and group with players that are currently better until they catch up. And, over time, listen to player chatter and group with them to see how they're doing.
Idea,
You must have 80 hours played for every 10 levels. You have exp requirements to make lvl 10 , and you will also have time played requirements. For example , Nobody can ding to level 20 unless the 160 hours played has happened. AFK does not count, the game will auto AFK after 10 mins. Powerlevel all you want but that brake at every 10th level will check your true EXP. And maybe a little solo test by your trainer every 10th level would be nice.
I'm a fan of what I call 'late game' powerleveling. It is that point in the life of the game where I've already leveled up several other classes the normal way and have experienced all the content available in the game. Without powerleveling at this point I'd just quit playing, the developers lose my subscription, my guild loses everything I can offer them and the game loses yet another player...for no good reason.
At some point, going through the same content over and over and over just gets too unbearable. You can only xp in Crushbone or SolA or Dalnir or here or there so many times. But you know there will be new content coming through expansion after expansion and having more classes in your pocket to play with which you can experience that content keeps you in the game longer and that is never a bad thing.
I'll admit powerleveling has downsides. By my skipping all those levels I remove myself from the population of players who might be experiencing the game for the first time and could use another person in their group(s). Fewer people around means groups are harder to make and that could cause people to quit. The other downside is people who pay to get power leveled, who might be new players or have limited experience in the game are now at max level with terrible skills..both class skills but also playing skills.
Is it possible to prevent powereveling? No. Players will always find a way to level up faster by one method or another. But if you want to discourage it, you minimize the situations where powereveling is seen as the best choice.
Slightly related to what Evoras and Skycaster were talking about is the "potential" feature of the Level Trials or Rights of Passage. I had previously thought that idea had been dumped after the website update. But in a thread with Brad on a related topic I asked him if it was still a thing or if it had in fact been dumped. He replied that it was still on the table for testing in alpha/beta. So I cant say it will make the final cut but it could.
FFXI used this method where at a certain point every so many levels you'd have to complete leveling trials to prove your skill and knowledge of that class in order to have the right to level up beyond these check points. Most of it was fairly challenging (as long as no high level was present) and group oriented. Except for the highest level challenge which was a solo instance where you basically fight a harder version of yourself. Not advocating instances or that it would need to be done the exact way it was done in FFXI. But it could work to curb PLing. Especially if your skill level isnt where it needs to be for the challenge.
Evoras said:I approach it by suggesting that the mechanisms from which characters base their power are ones that have specific requirements that take both time and effort to gain.
Imagine if you could not wield level 30+ wizzy spells unless you had fired 1000 level 20 firebolts (this is a silly and arbitrary non-example just for the sake of illustration). What I mean to illustrate is that there could be some 'achievement' needed to be accomplished for some level-based class ability usages - something that should be easily achieveable just by levelling in a normal way.
This makes alot of sense to me and this- would be the kind of thing vetted during alpha testing (not pre-alpha)- even if it takes another year until release should the resources be available. ok maybe I am exagerating about a year, but I believe this would be a great kind of achievement to put in.
To the OP's point. Yes, you can tell if a player that has been PL'd as it is clear in how they play (poorly, making the same mistakes you did atlevel 10, and from which you learned- but they are level 65?! 0_o) To quote Steely Dan "but if you want some company, I stand here by myself, go play with someone else. I-can-see-by-what-you-carry-that-you-from-Barry-town"
- but let us not forget the mentoring idea/feature that would eliminate this. Have a younger player come in and want to get them up to speed? so to speak? rather than spend the time PLing them, mentor down and group with them.
Yes, this will spoil the player initially as they will be playing with a well-oiled team(you). Ideally they would have to find their own groups and find their own well-oiled machines- which leads to the odd practice of guilds randomly and insecently(sp?) inviting people- doesn't make sense does it. That is to say, it has to happen naturally, you cannot force it by saying- 5 different guildies must be the one added to their group, etc, then you just become a Herbert (not the british thing, I mean when Spock quoted "I am not Herbert" and was deemed, cool) or- keeping it contemporatily fictional- like a Babbit.
Now if a group- came to a guild and said we would like to join- 6-8 at once because each of them have grouped with members of the guild in seperate groups, and various single guild members ( possibly mentoring down) filled out the group- and also have a good experience, that makes it a win-win.
Now say the guild has over arching tennents that are appealing- said guild has three or however many tiers- top end, middle end, low end, no twinking: for the middle end wants ot pursue the same achievemts in "getting there" as the top end. Of course information can be shared, but the doing of it is the key.
The above depends on ever increasing armors, levels and does not take into account the concept of Horizontal leveling- in which I feel the achievement aspect of casting a spell ties in nicely.
So , no, sorry, cant P/L- Would you please take your little brother/sister! with you! (*aww mom!*) and mentor down. You may need to deal with your own avarice- afraid of missing something? muahahahaha. "they" doing it, and "you" are not because you are mentoring?
However, what I think flavors the OP's point but is not stated is the distasteful practice of selling the PL services- it is the door opening another inch stemming from cash shops. How do you stop that RMT as a game dev? by owning it and selling exp Potions- kicking out the cottage industry of P/L for cash.
I think alot of people on recent topics have lost sight of the fact that if you actually managed to get half of what you guys want put into this game your not going to have enough players to make a MMO. You need more then a few people to sign on in order to make the game a success.
All of these artificial constraints that you guys want put in just for the sake of making the game harder or making the player "earn" their right to play wth you, is going to do nothing but drive off new blood to this game.
So you don't like the druid sitting to the side buffing his buddy or the cleric healing some newb to help him out...tuff, it's their world too. I can't count the amount of people that I helped in EQ1 get their feet wet, by a little powerleveling, that would of never otherwise gave the game a shot.
I'm all for challenge and feeling of accomplishment you got from playing early MMOS, but come on, some of you want to make the game even harder then EQ1. There is no way in hell that a going to work. I'm not trying to be over offensive, but you really gotta start thinking beyond just what you want out of the game.
Im not against power leveling. Sometimes you need to catch up to a friends level or maybe your group of friends you play with needs a certain class in the group that's missing.
Same goes for gear. I prefer the days when you could equip high end equipment on a level 1 alt. No level restrictions. Run around killing things you really shouldn't. Enjoying the spoils of your dungeon crawling.
I think the more restrictions and rules applied tends will weigh down gameplay. Yeah, people will abuse it but those type of people who always want to take the shortcut tend to get bored and quit anyways.
VicNuggets said:Im not against power leveling. Sometimes you need to catch up to a friends level or maybe your group of friends you play with needs a certain class in the group that's missing.
Same goes for gear. I prefer the days when you could equip high end equipment on a level 1 alt. No level restrictions. Run around killing things you really shouldn't. Enjoying the spoils of your dungeon crawling.
I think the more restrictions and rules applied tends will weigh down gameplay. Yeah, people will abuse it but those type of people who always want to take the shortcut tend to get bored and quit anyways.
Couldn't agree more on all points.
The proponents of power leveling have made some great points here and clearly show that this a difficult balance to strike. I definitely want to think more about the issue. In the meantime, though, I do feel compelled to respond to one point made above . . .
Riply said:
All of these artificial constraints that you guys want put in just for the sake of making the game harder or making the player "earn" their right to play wth you, is going to do nothing but drive off new blood to this game.
Methods to prevent power leveling are not "artificial constraints." When the entire world is a virtual world created by software programming, everything is artificial, and the decision not to prevent something is the same as a decision to reward something. As I tried to emphasize in my original post, power leveling--by which I mean methods whereby higher level characters provide assistance that removes or reduces the risk of lower-level challenges--seems to contradict the basic premise of a risk/reward progression system. Therefore it needs some other justification. Your simply describing power leveling as "natural" and methods of preventing power leveling as "artificial constraints" misses the point that the decision whether to allow power leveling is part and parcel of the overall design of the level-up system, and nothing about that system is inherently "natural" or "artificial"; it's just the product of design decisions like those being discussed here. (:
Gnog said:Methods to prevent power leveling are not "artificial constraints." When the entire world is a virtual world created by software programming, everything is artificial, and the decision not to prevent something is the same as a decision to reward something. As I tried to emphasize in my original post, power leveling--by which I mean methods whereby higher level characters provide assistance that removes or reduces the risk of lower-level challenges--seems to contradict the basic premise of a risk/reward progression system. Therefore it needs some other justification. Your simply describing power leveling as "natural" and methods of preventing power leveling as "artificial constraints" misses the point that the decision whether to allow power leveling is part and parcel of the overall design of the level-up system, and nothing about that system is inherently "natural" or "artificial"; it's just the product of design decisions like those being discussed here. (:
You know what i meant by artificial, how about additional rulesets instead of the word artificial.
Deciding not to prevent something is far from the same thing as rewarding the action. We don't prevent people from smoking, so somehow by your logic we are rewarding it?
Your trying to make all design choices in an MMO as black and white, right or wrong, that's just not always the case. To an extent it may by contradictory to the idea of risk versus reward, but that comes at a plus to the over all player enjoyment. I have given justification in my earlier post, it doesn't have to fit your definition but it is still justification. But to reiterate a few:
1. Community, being able to help others is paramount building relationships and the ease of being able to give that help determines how often people will actually do it.
2. Subscription growth, we don't need another WoW here but we do need enough players to keep the lights on. Again from my post earlier, I know for a fact that my helping to power level a few people through a few levels was enough to help atleast a dozen people get their feet wet enough to stick to EQ1.
3. Player rention, after playing for a few years with my trusty raiding guild I may become bored and want to raid as another class but don't neccesarily have the desire to go through it all again. I don't mean to bypass it all or be power level from 1-max, but a few extra buffs would go a long way.
4. If it doesn't affect your game play or the overall health of the community, what do you care? Power leveling never did anything major detrimentalin to EQ1 in the 8 years I played it. So every once in a while you ran across someone who abused it and never learned their class, ignore them and go about your business.
BTW not all aspects of a game are actual design choices as you are tring to imply, some evolve organically(Players find a way). I may not be a game developer but I am a Software Engineer and I can tell you that you if you attempt to control 100% of user interaction you will fail 100% of the time.
Riply said:I think alot of people on recent topics have lost sight of the fact that if you actually managed to get half of what you guys want put into this game your not going to have enough players to make a MMO. You need more then a few people to sign on in order to make the game a success.
All of these artificial constraints that you guys want put in just for the sake of making the game harder or making the player "earn" their right to play wth you, is going to do nothing but drive off new blood to this game.
So you don't like the druid sitting to the side buffing his buddy or the cleric healing some newb to help him out...tuff, it's their world too. I can't count the amount of people that I helped in EQ1 get their feet wet, by a little powerleveling, that would of never otherwise gave the game a shot.
I'm all for challenge and feeling of accomplishment you got from playing early MMOS, but come on, some of you want to make the game even harder then EQ1. There is no way in hell that a going to work. I'm not trying to be over offensive, but you really gotta start thinking beyond just what you want out of the game.
I disagree. These things not only pertain to the target audiance that VR was at least orignally targeting, but can bring more life to the game. I agree however though that not all things have been sunshine and rainbows and I hope are either A. Ironed out and tested in alpha/betas. B. Just completely ignored by VR. For example, not implementing an AH because ecommons.
I think completely negating power leveling is a terrible idea. I do however think there is things they can implement that typically come with the incompetence of power leveling or in general can bring more life to the game existing. I think ideas that involve specifically not making the game fun though are bad ideas. Now what exactly is that? That is subjective, and I think the reason discussions exist. My thoughts though, things like Combat Skills with an actual purpose are fun. For example, things unlocked. Quests done etc from hitting certain tiers. Combat skills specifically just for the puspose of afk auto-attacking just to say you have max combat skill are not fun.
Eliseus said:I disagree. These things not only pertain to the target audiance that VR was at least orignally targeting, but can bring more life to the game.
While I can respect your opinion on this, I really question if that new life is something that will be initial to release or something that will be sustainable growth for years to come. My guess is it will be upfront with no additional gain later on, actually becoming a deterrent for new players later down the line that find themselves struggling to catch average level range.
Keep in mind VRs target audience has always been players that wish to play a group centric game that is a challenge with meaningful progression. You can achieve that in many ways, the game can be hard and give you that feeling of accomplishment without making every single aspect of the game hard.
Also something to remember is that many of us loved games like EQ1 because it did not have additional rule sets on every little aspect of the game, you could to a degree, play the game the way you want to play it. Those players are a huge portion of the target audience for Pantheon.
I am actually in favour of players doing 'drive-by' buffing etc. I think it helps the community at large and engenders more inter-player socialisation. However, I am strongly of the opinion that the game should be aiming to slow levelling to allow people to fully invest in the scenery and all the horizontal aspects of the game that can be achieved by doing so. Obviously there will be people who wish to 'rush to the end', but if they are a sufficient minority, it will have very limited impact on the other 99.9% of players.
My post was merely to imply that there were possible ways to curb 'Hardcore PL'ing' by making it such that such accelerated levelling would make apparent some 'behind the scenes' mechanism that do not affect 99.9% of the player base - even with the occasional drive-by buffings etc. It would only affect two segments of the player-base:
1. Chinese farmers.
Their detrimental activity is usually done after they have levelled. So ignore them for this debate.
2. End-Game players who want to level up an Alt.
In my post, I even suggested that these mechanisms would not come into effect until level 20-30 or so. This would mean you could still PL your new Alt to that level, but would be forced to either do a bit of grinding or slow your levelling to a 'high' but not egregious rate. The 'Level your toon from 1-50 in 24-hours' would not be possible. Level quickly to 20, then work at the speed bumbs for levels 30, 40 etc and perhaps enjoy the (hopfully available) raid (or multi-group) content from level 20 upwards. This would give the Alts a chance to practice the ever-growing spells and tricks of their new trade before they end up at level 50 with only a basic understanding of their new class.
I hope this explains my posistion a bit better.
PS: I do like the idea of a 'mastery test' at points in your yourney! Could be fun!