Dullahan said:Eliseus said:How does one prevent power leveling? I don't know if you really can without hurting the core design of the game. Look at FFXIV 1.0. They tried to prevent power leveling and it actually drove players away how they did it, yet didn't fully prevent it.
Powerleveling, at least as it existed in EQ, could easily be prevented in Pantheon ... and should be.
To powerlevel another player in EQ, you could simply heal them in combat without it penalizing the player on the receiving end of the experience. That would be the first thing to prevent. Just like when you did more than half the damage, another player would receive no experience, that same principle should be applied to healing. If a mob has 1000 hp, and during the fight a player out of group healed another for over more than 501 health, it should remove or at least reduce the amount of experience they receive.
Likewise, if a player is given a buff like a damage shield that is doing more than half the damage, that portion of the damage should also be penalized. The same principle would go for regeneration spells or reactives, like proc buffs. The point of buffs should not be to empower independent players, but primarily to empower yourself and your group. That will encourage grouping and benefit the social nature of the game in general.
In addition to those things, I think buff durations should be reduced based on level. If a level 50 casts a level 50 HP buff with a duration of 2 hours on a level 10, it should last 1/5th the time. That would mean the buff only lasts 24 minutes. That means the player can either receive a lower level buff that gives them less health that lasts longer, or a buff which yields more health with shorter duration. It then becomes a choice.
That leaves methods such as feign death which removes damage history on a mob with aggro. In that case you just don't wipe the damage credit. The player who kills the damaged mob will still be able to loot (so as to prevent kill and loot stealing), but they wouldn't be rewarded with full experience as if they were solely reponsible for killing the mob.
These rules do not prevent powerleveling all together, nor should they. Players should be happy to both receive and give buffs to and from strangers. It would simply make it less potent and prevent trivializing the leveling process.
The problem with many things you suggested is exactly what I say is the problem. Hurting core design. People shouldn't have to worry about running past someone and not being able to receive help. For example, anyone that has aggro on something should be the one to receive credit? That hurts players trying to run from something in a serious situation. X amount of cures can result in a loss of exp gains? Someone running by seeing a warrior dying penalizes the warrior instead of potentially helping them live. Same level though, so not really power leveling. You end up making more people mad than not. There was some great ideas in this thread of different ways to combat the ignorance of a power leveled player (though we know this exists regardless) and these ideas are not one of them. People SHOULD NEVER BE PENALIZED FOR HELPING SOMEONE ELSE OR RECEIVING HELP IN AN MMO.
Eliseus said:The problem with many things you suggested is exactly what I say is the problem. Hurting core design. People shouldn't have to worry about running past someone and not being able to receive help. For example, anyone that has aggro on something should be the one to receive credit? That hurts players trying to run from something in a serious situation. X amount of cures can result in a loss of exp gains? Someone running by seeing a warrior dying penalizes the warrior instead of potentially helping them live. Same level though, so not really power leveling. You end up making more people mad than not. There was some great ideas in this thread of different ways to combat the ignorance of a power leveled player (though we know this exists regardless) and these ideas are not one of them. People SHOULD NEVER BE PENALIZED FOR HELPING SOMEONE ELSE OR RECEIVING HELP IN AN MMO.
If a player is dying and are going to lose experience and the time associated with death, their experience is the last thing that they are going to be worried about. That's really not relevant to preventing mechanical exploitation or powerleveling at all, to be honest.
Eliseus said:
The problem with many things you suggested is exactly what I say is the problem. Hurting core design. People shouldn't have to worry about running past someone and not being able to receive help. For example, anyone that has aggro on something should be the one to receive credit? That hurts players trying to run from something in a serious situation. X amount of cures can result in a loss of exp gains? Someone running by seeing a warrior dying penalizes the warrior instead of potentially helping them live. Same level though, so not really power leveling. You end up making more people mad than not. There was some great ideas in this thread of different ways to combat the ignorance of a power leveled player (though we know this exists regardless) and these ideas are not one of them. People SHOULD NEVER BE PENALIZED FOR HELPING SOMEONE ELSE OR RECEIVING HELP IN AN MMO.
Dullahan said:Eliseus said:The problem with many things you suggested is exactly what I say is the problem. Hurting core design. People shouldn't have to worry about running past someone and not being able to receive help. For example, anyone that has aggro on something should be the one to receive credit? That hurts players trying to run from something in a serious situation. X amount of cures can result in a loss of exp gains? Someone running by seeing a warrior dying penalizes the warrior instead of potentially helping them live. Same level though, so not really power leveling. You end up making more people mad than not. There was some great ideas in this thread of different ways to combat the ignorance of a power leveled player (though we know this exists regardless) and these ideas are not one of them. People SHOULD NEVER BE PENALIZED FOR HELPING SOMEONE ELSE OR RECEIVING HELP IN AN MMO.
If a player is dying and are going to lose experience and the time associated with death, their experience is the last thing that they are going to be worried about. That's really not relevant to preventing mechanical exploitation or powerleveling at all, to be honest.
Sure it is, example:
Player one is fighting named mob "X" and his/her health is at 60% and named mob "X"'s health is also at 60%. if I do not heal player one he may die, but he may not, both the player and mob are neck and neck in this fight.
Outcome one: I stand there, don't help, player one dies, he's pissed at me for being the ass that watched him die.
Outcome two: I heal (but based on what your purposal) player one lives, mob dies and player one gets no loot or exp. In his eyes I just screwed him out of a rare spawn and I'm the ass he's pissed at.
Outcome three: Pantheon has no rediculous penalty for helping a fellow player, I heal player one, he lives through the fight, gets the loot and the exp. Player one is thankful for the help and we have now started a new conversation between players.
Riply said:Dullahan said:Eliseus said:The problem with many things you suggested is exactly what I say is the problem. Hurting core design. People shouldn't have to worry about running past someone and not being able to receive help. For example, anyone that has aggro on something should be the one to receive credit? That hurts players trying to run from something in a serious situation. X amount of cures can result in a loss of exp gains? Someone running by seeing a warrior dying penalizes the warrior instead of potentially helping them live. Same level though, so not really power leveling. You end up making more people mad than not. There was some great ideas in this thread of different ways to combat the ignorance of a power leveled player (though we know this exists regardless) and these ideas are not one of them. People SHOULD NEVER BE PENALIZED FOR HELPING SOMEONE ELSE OR RECEIVING HELP IN AN MMO.
If a player is dying and are going to lose experience and the time associated with death, their experience is the last thing that they are going to be worried about. That's really not relevant to preventing mechanical exploitation or powerleveling at all, to be honest.
Sure it is, example:
Player one is fighting named mob "X" and his/her health is at 60% and named mob "X"'s health is also at 60%. if I do not heal player one he may die, but he may not, both the player and mob are neck and neck in this fight.
Outcome one: I stand there, don't help, player one dies, he's pissed at me for being the ass that watched him die.
Outcome two: I heal (but based on what your purposal) player one lives, mob dies and player one gets no loot or exp. In his eyes I just screwed him out of a rare spawn and I'm the ass he's pissed at.
Outcome three: Pantheon has no rediculous penalty for helping a fellow player, I heal player one, he lives through the fight, gets the loot and the exp. Player one is thankful for the help and we have now started a new conversation between players.
This is total misrepresentation of what I proposed and a fallacious argument. Why would player one get no loot? If he or she did the most damage, they would still get the loot. No one is going to not help someone to avoid experience loss. Everyone will know dying is worse than losing a little experience from one kill, especially a kill on a rare spawn.
If you want powerleveling then feel free to state your case as to why it should exist. There's no need to create this false reality to make your argument.
Hmm a few somewhat ovestated ponts made:
Let me give a simple to inpliment, but 'effective' sort-of-solution. (I say 'sort-of' since there is no 'perfect' solution for any situation, whether pro or con. There is only the 'law of unintended consequences, and how best to minimise it!)
Eg: (Off-the-cuff example)
1. Player XP is divided in ratio of damage done
2. Everone in a group counts as 'one player'
3. Player who came 2nd gets 1/2, 3rd gets 1/3, 4th gets 1/4 etc
4. Pets/DS counts as damage by owner/buffer (only awarded if in range)
5. Aggro counts as extra damage pts for this calculation
In this example, players can do 'good deeds' such as drive-by buffing prople, casting DS or heals etc. You can even do extra damage to 'finish off' a mob that was about to kill the other player - though it may cost them a little exp. There is no 'most dmg' gets all the exp - just 'you get XP according to what you did'. Healers and CC'ers would only get XP solo (without help) or in groups where the whole group counts as one entity. Unlike 'last hit get the exp' or '1st hit get the XP' systems you avoid stupid ninja KS tactics.
This only leaves healing them as a viable PL'ing tactic.... as long as they can hit the mob to do enough damage to kill it.
(Yes, there is a way round this if you are wily enough to see it! There is no perfect method ... yet!)
My views on PL'ing are in an earlier post (not unfavourable, as long as minimised to elite 'racers' and 'alt creators' - more twinking that PL'ing I guess.)
BUT, when people say 'You can't stop PL'ing without damaging core tenets and cause negative socialization' ....
.... I take it as a personal challenge to innovate a way to do JUST THAT.
Evoras, has been The Devil's Advocate since he was 11
EDIT: All touch and no type! Errors, errors, errors!
Sevens: If you dont want to PL dont do it, dont try and dictate to others how to play
Any questionable action should always be considered, debated and not just glossed over. Just stating you don’t agree with someone because you want to do that action, is not a valid argument. If you think it is a valid play style, why don’t you put forward your case.
My take on it is this is
I have power-levelled alt characters of mine and helped friends do the same.
This has only happened when my main has done much of what is possible and I have wanted a new challenge. The problem is that most of the journey is the same for alts, or there are not enough people about to make grouping a pleasurable experience.
To be honest, revisiting the same content is not as enjoyable the second time through (unless there is a large amount of real time in between runs). So, to get to the “good stuff” it’s always been a case of getting through grind as soon as possible. The best way for that is to have friends help you out, which can be fun in its own way.
Is this right? I don’t know, probably not? But the reason it is done (as far as I am concerned) is a valid one. Repetition, grind and the same story lines just becomes tedious.
I agree that it can easily create characters not up to scratch with the class mechanics, but that doesn’t last and you can become proficient with a maxed secondary character as a primary. If you belong to a good guild, then you can easily get tutorage in your power levelled character's role, so I don’t really think this is a valid argument to stop this.
Is this really a detriment?
Ok, for argument sake, let’s say it is. How would do you stop this?
The easiest way is to make the content of the journey varied enough and interesting enough that characters progression never becomes an identical journey. If there are multiple paths depending on class, race and starting areas, etc, then players would be more inclined to play the game as it is meant to be played. If the journey IS the point of the game, then players would naturally do more exploring, adventuring and delving into the content in the way developers wanted. If the content is the same each time it’s played, power levelling would (imo) be a legitimate course of action to not get bored with the game.
So, the answer is simple, make the journey different for each character/role/player, each time it is played, and I for one, would never power level. Make the game repetitive for the lower levels and this will definately happen.
I think there are other aspects of MMOs which are more detrimental though.
chenzeme said:So, the answer is simple, make the journey different for each character/role/player, each time it is played, and I for one, would never power level. Make the game repetitive for the lower levels and this will definately happen.
I think in this one comment you touched on an interesting point and one of which that I mostly agree with. I see this as something that cannot be solved without some type of detriment to experience in one shape or another. But to go along with your comment I think the answer is to offer compelling content that gives a player incentive to go through the traditional leveling process.
I really don't believe more rules or restrictions are ever going to work on a topic like this where so many really just don't see it as an issue that needs to be solved in the first place. At the end of the day, even with a compelling leveling experience, there will be those that choose to skip past it for whatever reason and they are not neccesarily wrong for doing so. There are still plenty of reasons why someone may want to bypass the leveling experience in a traditional sense. But I do believe offering as you said a different journey for each character would go a long way to giving incentive to traditional leveling. Offer incentive, but do not force players to play the game a specific way imho.
Riply: At the end of the day, even with a compelling levelling experience, there will be those that choose to skip past it for whatever reason and they are not necessarily wrong for doing so.
Another reason for power levelling is that the "end game" is seen as better than the main game. If this proves to be the case with Pantheon RotF then players are going to want to get there as soon as possible.
BUT, as various people from VR have stated a number of times, that they don't want this and that it is all about the journey, then what would the point of this kind of game play be? If there is no true "end game" why get to it as quickly as possible? If the game is really all about the journey, friends, groups, guilds and adventure, then power levelling would only cheat yourself. You would miss the whole point of the game. If the "end game" doesn't take precedence and VR makes Pantheon RotF live up to the journey being paramount, then this becomes a mute issue. People can power-level as much as they want, but for what? Most people will be playing the game properly and power-levelled players will not gain anything from getting to the end any quicker.
I agree with another of your sentiments you touched on, Riply, artificial restrictions on power-levelling only adds to complication of game mechanics and as you said, probably wouldnt work anyway. If the entire game content is great from level one and is second to none, that the end game is not as with current crops of MMOs, then there is no point in getting to max level as soon as possible. This naturally makes players get the most from each and every level.
The more freedom taken away from the player-base to control how we decide to play this sandbox style game is a step in the wrong direction. The idea of taking exp away from a player for being healed from a non-party member is just troll/grief bait, not to mention it's an immersion breaking, hardcoded invisible barrier that undermines the sandbox nature of the game. I'm for small government and liberty in real life, and those principals are part of what I usually expect to see in a sandbox style game. The more programming interferes with this being an open world full of options, the less like the original vision of this game it starts to sound like. It appears there are a lot of players that want programming to regulate game-play in a way that favors their ideals, and they are disregarding the fact that the more they add invisible barriers and restrictions the natural open world that many of us are after, the less the sandbox element of this game is realistic.
If people want to powerlevel, then so be it. If you don't want to powerlevel, then don't do it. Acting like people powerleveling is going to ruin your experience is not that reasonable. No matter how this game is programmed, someone else will almost always to be able to find a way to negatively affect your experience. Over-programming restrictions into the game seems like one of the worst approaches, in my opinion.
It wont be the the end of the world if people can PL. But I disagree with anarchy or that this game or everquest are sandboxes. For one, to my knowledge there has never been a TRUE sandbox MMO. Closest things that come to mind are things like Minecraft. The things we do call sandboxes have many of these freedoms, but most MMOs arent that free of restrictions. What some of you would call restrictions I would call rules. But Ill say it again. This game will not be a sandbox. It will be an oldschool themepark. Which means it will have more sandbox influence but there will be rules in place. So at best you would call this game and EQ: Themeboxes or Sandparks. Because if they were really sandboxes you wouldnt even have classes or quests. But Ill be clear, I dont have a problem with sandbox style influence and immersion. But I want a healthy ballance. I dont think anyone wants the game to be an over-coded nightmare, but you can go overboard in the other direction too.
Katalyzt said:The more freedom taken away from the player-base to control how we decide to play this sandbox style game is a step in the wrong direction. The idea of taking exp away from a player for being healed from a non-party member is just troll/grief bait, not to mention it's an immersion breaking, hardcoded invisible barrier that undermines the sandbox nature of the game. I'm for small government and liberty in real life, and those principals are part of what I usually expect to see in a sandbox style game. The more programming interferes with this being an open world full of options, the less like the original vision of this game it starts to sound like. It appears there are a lot of players that want programming to regulate game-play in a way that favors their ideals, and they are disregarding the fact that the more they add invisible barriers and restrictions the natural open world that many of us are after, the less the sandbox element of this game is realistic.
If people want to powerlevel, then so be it. If you don't want to powerlevel, then don't do it. Acting like people powerleveling is going to ruin your experience is not that reasonable. No matter how this game is programmed, someone else will almost always to be able to find a way to negatively affect your experience. Over-programming restrictions into the game seems like one of the worst approaches, in my opinion.
This argument is a non sequitur to me, because I'm for as little interference as possible as well. Having your exp reduced because someone helped you isn't a barrier any more than your character running 10mph rather than 15mph. By that logic, anything that simulates reality is a barrier, including the need for external healing. To have something made easier and to get the same experience is illogical and unrealistic and therefore more artificial. If someone does your homework for you, less effort required of you, less experience you get.
There have to be rules in a game to create a similitude of reality. Less is not always more if less is broken. Powerleveling allows people to avoid the natural process of progression, and as such is more broken than it is "freedom".
They could also make it so the exp reduction doesn't kick in until there is a trend so as to differentiate between friendly healing and powerleveling.
There is also the argument that powerleveling creates an exclusive environment rather than inclusive. By powerleveling players, it eliminates groups that would otherwise exist and the social and community aspects that go with it.
Then there's the issue of content monopoly as well. How many times did groups playing EQ find entire areas locked down by a couple high levels powerleveling someone? Too often, imo.
Powerleveling should niether be encouraged or discourged as it's emergent gameplay.
But I do believe in things like high level buffs should not be castable on lower level players which would impact power leveling negativly.
Otherwise, if you are a player who is power leveled, but your skills do not keep up with your level, that is a big negative that has always turned me off to power leveling my characters. If a 'use to increase' skill system like EQ is put into Pantheon then I see this also being an issue. I don't like 'point buy' systems where you click a button and immediately gain a skill.
Dullahan said:Katalyzt said:The more freedom taken away from the player-base to control how we decide to play this sandbox style game is a step in the wrong direction. The idea of taking exp away from a player for being healed from a non-party member is just troll/grief bait, not to mention it's an immersion breaking, hardcoded invisible barrier that undermines the sandbox nature of the game. I'm for small government and liberty in real life, and those principals are part of what I usually expect to see in a sandbox style game. The more programming interferes with this being an open world full of options, the less like the original vision of this game it starts to sound like. It appears there are a lot of players that want programming to regulate game-play in a way that favors their ideals, and they are disregarding the fact that the more they add invisible barriers and restrictions the natural open world that many of us are after, the less the sandbox element of this game is realistic.
If people want to powerlevel, then so be it. If you don't want to powerlevel, then don't do it. Acting like people powerleveling is going to ruin your experience is not that reasonable. No matter how this game is programmed, someone else will almost always to be able to find a way to negatively affect your experience. Over-programming restrictions into the game seems like one of the worst approaches, in my opinion.
This argument is a non sequitur to me, because I'm for as little interference as possible as well. Having your exp reduced because someone helped you isn't a barrier any more than your character running 10mph rather than 15mph. By that logic, anything that simulates reality is a barrier, including the need for external healing. To have something made easier and to get the same experience is illogical and unrealistic and therefore more artificial. If someone does your homework for you, less effort required of you, less experience you get.
There have to be rules in a game to create a similitude of reality. Less is not always more if less is broken. Powerleveling allows people to avoid the natural process of progression, and as such is more broken than it is "freedom".
They could also make it so the exp reduction doesn't kick in until there is a trend so as to differentiate between friendly healing and powerleveling.
There is also the argument that powerleveling creates an exclusive environment rather than inclusive. By powerleveling players, it eliminates groups that would otherwise exist and the social and community aspects that go with it.
Then there's the issue of content monopoly as well. How many times did groups playing EQ find entire areas locked down by a couple high levels powerleveling someone? Too often, imo.
An argument on run speed vs a barrier on how exp is gained is a leap I can't make. I see where you're coming from with your logic, but from my perspective that's an apples and oranges argument.
And while I agree that they, obviously, have to interfere with player freedom with rules somewhere along the way, the issue comes in as to where that line is drawn. I think most of this debate is based on the fact that we don't all agree where that line should be drawn. At the end of the day, debating a topic like this feels a little like one side is asking for something to be kept out of the game, even though it's not something they would personally participate in, for the express purpose of excluding another group of players from having access to a play style that is different than their own. The closest you can come to making a compelling argument against powerleveling is that it will somehow ruin other players’ experiences. The issue I have with that argument is I never really ran into this issue in EQ or Vanguard. Most of the time the content that was off limits to me due to other players in-game, was that it was being camped by a group of people my level. That's not to say PL groups taking content from other groups never happened, but my friends/guild never really ran into it. Plus, even if it did happen I would just suck it up because it’s part of playing a game in an open world, it’s honestly something I kind of expect. People can be jerks, I don’t expect VR to program that out of the game.
Another quick aside: The penalty for healing from outside a group negating their experience sounds like a super slippery slope that will open the door for trolls and griefing. On a pvp server it would work itself out (which is probably true for half of these issues we don't all agree on), but on a pve server it could really become a problem.
Edit: I also wanted to point out that in EQ being powerleveled was not all it was cracked up to be based on the class skill system. While you may be able to get a few levels a little faster, it ended up taking a ton of time, and once you decided to play that character it was totally gimped since all of it's skills were super low. I think the skill system is the best approach for a more natural barrier for powerleveling.
chenzeme said:Sevens: If you dont want to PL dont do it, dont try and dictate to others how to play
Any questionable action should always be considered, debated and not just glossed over. Just stating you don’t agree with someone because you want to do that action, is not a valid argument. If you think it is a valid play style, why don’t you put forward your case.
My take on it is this is
I have power-levelled alt characters of mine and helped friends do the same.
This has only happened when my main has done much of what is possible and I have wanted a new challenge. The problem is that most of the journey is the same for alts, or there are not enough people about to make grouping a pleasurable experience.
To be honest, revisiting the same content is not as enjoyable the second time through (unless there is a large amount of real time in between runs). So, to get to the “good stuff” it’s always been a case of getting through grind as soon as possible. The best way for that is to have friends help you out, which can be fun in its own way.
Is this right? I don’t know, probably not? But the reason it is done (as far as I am concerned) is a valid one. Repetition, grind and the same story lines just becomes tedious.
I agree that it can easily create characters not up to scratch with the class mechanics, but that doesn’t last and you can become proficient with a maxed secondary character as a primary. If you belong to a good guild, then you can easily get tutorage in your power levelled character's role, so I don’t really think this is a valid argument to stop this.Is this really a detriment?
Ok, for argument sake, let’s say it is. How would do you stop this?
The easiest way is to make the content of the journey varied enough and interesting enough that characters progression never becomes an identical journey. If there are multiple paths depending on class, race and starting areas, etc, then players would be more inclined to play the game as it is meant to be played. If the journey IS the point of the game, then players would naturally do more exploring, adventuring and delving into the content in the way developers wanted. If the content is the same each time it’s played, power levelling would (imo) be a legitimate course of action to not get bored with the game.
So, the answer is simple, make the journey different for each character/role/player, each time it is played, and I for one, would never power level. Make the game repetitive for the lower levels and this will definately happen.
I think there are other aspects of MMOs which are more detrimental though.
I agree that stuff like this should be discussed, I never said not to. The only reason I really havent taken the time to really state my views is that this subject has been brought up a few times before in the past couple years I have been following these forums, Ive said it all before. Also, im not FOR powerleveling...im against wasting dev time putting in systems that really dont need to be there.
Personally I have found that those that powerlevel get to the top then cry about there not being enough content. I have seen that in every game I have played. Those that do it usually move on to another game OR the dev team for that game caters to them and forgets about the casual players which end up being those that pay for their jobs in the long run. I have been on both sides as a powerleveler and I have also stopped to smell the roses and enjoy the leveling process.
In a nutshell I have found like so many others that those that powerlevel just dont know their class as well as someone who actually worked at it for months if not years. That is not to say there are not those that can learn on the fly BUT in general I have not seen that. I prefer casual gaming now that I am getting older BUT I also like to raid. When you raid it is usually imperative that you know your class and every powerleveler I have known does it for raiding purposes OR to say they were first.
Dullahan said:This argument is a non sequitur to me, because I'm for as little interference as possible as well. Having your exp reduced because someone helped you isn't a barrier any more than your character running 10mph rather than 15mph.
Would you support the notion that SoW (or it's equivelent) not being castable on low level characters? Isn't doing so reducing their risk in travel, and reducing their difficulty level and personal experience of the hardships of the game?
Dullahan said:Then there's the issue of content monopoly as well. How many times did groups playing EQ find entire areas locked down by a couple high levels powerleveling someone? Too often, imo.
Content monopolization is already pretty clearly against Pantheon's rules based on things both Kilsin and Brad have said. /Report.
If they were going to try to make a game mechanic that addresses everything that is against the rules, we'd have EQ2. And worse, we'd have a game that was forever changing, sometimes dramatically, to try to remove the possibility that a player could ever be guilty of imergent behavior rather than punishing only those who are abusing the game. As Katalyzt made the comparison of real life politics, this is exactly what I dislike about big government assuming that I will be guilty and attempting to make it impossible for me to be so by removing my freedoms, rather than identifying people that actually are guilty and addressing them.
In the same way I hated 'trivial loot code', I am not a fan of some spells 'not working' because the target is below a specific level etc.
If you are going to have to have some mechanism to prevent a level 50 player casting 'Buff of super-awesomeness' on a level 5 character and so increasing his hp by a factor of 20x, AC by a gazillion, and all stats to 3x their pre-buff levels, then please do not use such a crude and clumsy tool as an arbitrary level cutoff! It doesn't take account of when classes get spells, not the fact that while 'XP to level' increases exponentially, the stat gain effects level-by-level only increase by an inverse exponent, tending towards a horizontal limit (or asymtote). In other words, a level-50 buff that increases your 'effective power' by 3% on a level-50 geared character will add 3000% to a level-5's 'effective power'.
IF (and it is by no means certain) you want to stop this componding effect, then the most effective solution turns out to also be the easiest to develop and implement.
SCALE:
Assume a level-30 buff is designed for somebody as powerful as level-25+ to sustain it's full power. You can thus:
1. Scale down the size of the buff (spell_level vs target_level) OR
2. Scale down the duration (spell_level vs target_level) OR
3. Scale both in some combination (as above)
Thus, all spells works irrespective of target. However, if cast on somebody significantly weaker than the spell level, it would have reduced effects (either in terms of size or duration). Use Lore or your magic system precepts to define whci option is best etc.
I can understand the concern of PLing someone who doesn't truly learn the class.
But in my experience, most PLing was done with experienced players switching characters or beinging up alts to help out their groups. Most were not of the random PUG type, and most of us could say with some confidence, that while we would not know and be as proficient in a new class as someone who progressed slowly, most of us by the time we reach the higher levels, have a decent understanding of each classes abilities, and the learning curve to be average to above average quickly is much less than ones first adventure through content.
Also, in my experience, most PLing was done to get someone to the levels of their friends/regular group/guild, and not to max level. Yes hard core raiding guilds tend to have more intent of max level, but again, they are not your typical PUG type players.
Besides the fact that I have encountered many slow progression players that still were not the greatest at their class, I see little reason to worry about something so trivial.
I would be much more concerned about purchased max level accounts, than someone PLing, but that is years away yet.
Powerleveling should be discouraged but NOT prevented. I started playing EQ when I was only 6 years old and even around when I was 10 or so years old and able to understand more of what was going on, I still have very fond memories of being powerleveled by my family members. Also, every Christmas, in addition to "real" presents, my aunt and uncle would print out little cards with the names and stats of items that they were giving to me as virtual gifts in EQ and put them in an envelope and hang it from the Christmas tree. And of course the gear was way better than anything I had. To be honest, I looked forward to opening that envelope more than any of my other "real" gifts. I still have those cards to this day.
Even if it was from a random stranger, it was an amazing feeling to get super buffed and try to get as much xp as you could until the buffs wore out. And then once you were high level, it's just as fun to make someone's day by buffing a random noob you pass on the street in town. I think that makes people feel welcomed and that's what builds community. (Of course there probably should be some sort of restrictions on casting buffs on lower level toons because it's a lot easier to find someone that's willing to take 15 seconds to buff you rather than someone that's willing to take a couple hours of their time to PL you. But even having just one great buff like Temperance that you can cast on anyone was a great part of being a cleric and you could even charge people a small fee for it, which helps build a player-driven economy.)
None of that would be possible if powerleveling was prevented or if every item had an appropriate minimum level. Those were very important times in my childhood and those are the sorts of unforgettable memories and stories that VR is trying to facilitate, right?
Don't get me wrong, I definitely see the argument against powerleveling. I agree there should be some pretty significant downsides to it. For example, in EQ, if you were powerleveled too much, your basic skills such as Offense, Defense, Dodge, etc. would be way behind. You could be level 40 but still miss almost every attack because you've never swung a sword in your life. You had to work for those skills. Drawbacks like this should keep it so that PLing is the exception rather than the rule. The worst case scenario would be someone gaining access to high level content and raids but not having the gear or skills to keep up and ending up holding everyone else back that worked to get there. That specific scenario is what should be prevented, in my opinion. Although I can imagine that since there won't be automatic group queues, you won't just get stuck with some random undergeared stranger. You'll be able to better choose to run with people that are of similar quality. Otherwise, I think a lot of people find it enjoyable to PL, be PLed, twink their alts, etc. and they should be allowed to do that. To be a true sandbox, there can't be that many rules.
Pling is very important to end game guilds. and using the excuse PL alts have no skill is just plain silly. I have played against peoplethat have logged hundards of hours and they suck as well it isnt how fast you level the toon its how well you play period. I have faced many times where a guild mate would leave and we had no bard or no enchanter and sometimes finding one is impossible or they are useless. So we would talk to someone and help powerlevel an ALT so we could keep raiding successfully.
It doesnt trivialize content you still play the sane content just faster in fact it helps bring life to old zones. I have started PL grouyps for alts of mine and invited 4 others that wanted to come we would dash through dungeons killing mobs left and right. They get a fun time and nice loot and I get m alt leveled at the pace I want.
Even if I didnt powerlevel I would still hit max level much faster because I would know the best courses to take as I have done them already
In my view.. Power leveling = no knowledge of the class the player is playing , not so great gear unless given from hand me downs... I would rather group with a player who plays on a regular basis, learning from nothing and putting effort into the "toon" he/she is playing. Than grouping with a player who power leveled and does not know what to do.. just Meh.... And power leveling are only for buff bots if needed...
Feyshtey said:Dullahan said:This argument is a non sequitur to me, because I'm for as little interference as possible as well. Having your exp reduced because someone helped you isn't a barrier any more than your character running 10mph rather than 15mph.
Would you support the notion that SoW (or it's equivelent) not being castable on low level characters? Isn't doing so reducing their risk in travel, and reducing their difficulty level and personal experience of the hardships of the game?
No, I would say the temporary advantage of a buff is not on par with the permanent advantages of powerleveling. Apples and oranges. I would, however, say that a long term high level run buff should have a reduced duration on a low level target. =)
Feyshtey said:Dullahan said:Then there's the issue of content monopoly as well. How many times did groups playing EQ find entire areas locked down by a couple high levels powerleveling someone? Too often, imo.
Content monopolization is already pretty clearly against Pantheon's rules based on things both Kilsin and Brad have said. /Report.
If they were going to try to make a game mechanic that addresses everything that is against the rules, we'd have EQ2. And worse, we'd have a game that was forever changing, sometimes dramatically, to try to remove the possibility that a player could ever be guilty of imergent behavior rather than punishing only those who are abusing the game. As Katalyzt made the comparison of real life politics, this is exactly what I dislike about big government assuming that I will be guilty and attempting to make it impossible for me to be so by removing my freedoms, rather than identifying people that actually are guilty and addressing them.
Monopolizing content at that point is really a matter of interpretation and not really against any rules. It couldn't even be policed effectively if it was. However, the things I suggested would cut down on high levels clearing entire wings of a dungeon to feed kills to a character they are powerleveling without any policing or reporting necessary.
It's not even that what I suggested would "prevent" powerleveling, it would simply reduce it's effectiveness. In EQ, it was far too powerful. In that case, no one would be unable to clear entire dungeons on a high level character whether powerleveling or otherwise, it would simply encourage players to group because it would rival the efficiency and probably be more fun. Whereas in EQ, powerleveling was probably 10x as fast as leveling normally. Personally, I can't see why or how everyone doesn't regard that as a potential problem, should it be emulated in Pantheon.
If Progeny requires any sort of restarting for the bonuses, as a guild leader, I'll leverage every allowable advantage and resource needed to min:max the rotation time required to get bonuses for members. This includes direct interaction as well as indirect interaction between main/geared characters and Progeny "re-rolled" characters.
Curious as to what the final decision will be in terms of Progeny and how that decision will play into the desire to PL rotate people through for bonuses. In such a case it'd be foolish to think we wouldn't use our resources to "PL" them back up by providing them way to make the process more efficient.
Even if hypothetically buffs and heals cut into XP or their effectiveness were diminished, any advantage is an advantage and saves them time. Let's assume we can't interact at all with mains and character's we're "PL"ing, healing a character (or regen buffs) between fights minimizes downtime without any xp loss and also means more pulls quicker hence more xp quicker, maybe we corpse drag them between camps to get them into groups or camp spots quicker, perhaps ressurect characters parked near so there's a safety net allowing them to run on bleeding edge of pull speed with less time loss risk, etc. There's plenty of ways to indirectly to PL people (PL in a purest sense of xp:time).
Playing and PLing alts is an entirely different animal than if you were to lose a main raid/group character on a roster to a system that requires starting over for bonuses. PL becomes a much bigger topic if you take somebody and basically make them roster inactive on a character during their catch up time.
Not to diverge from the PL conversation with a Progeny conversation, but they could be linked topics depending if restarting is required and losing key people during this time. If a system is put in place to provide bonuses and requires any restarting, you almost have to expect PL will be much more frequent as it's not a matter of just alts or new friends wanting to start playing, rather holes in rosters appearing and support crews catching them up.
This is hypothetical based on a Progeny system only loosely explained, but the PL conversation does directly come into play even moreso if people go largely missing during a total restart of any sort. It was one thing when PL was something related to alts and friends, but when mains need/want to be caught back up, it's going to be a bit more likely to occur and will have even larger ripple effects in lower content. It's not a matter of not knowing how to play a character, it's getting experienced people in this case their bonuses as quickly as possible.