all that goofball said was boats are player made and customizable
edit- thank you for the link
This topic was brought up on the VoT Tavern Talk show yesterday, good show btw. The discussion was split around how long travel times should be based on maintaining the feel of a large immersive world. The initial time frame being thrown around was 20-30 minutes based on this thread, at one point a full hour was mentioned. Ideas were floated to to help fill the time on the boat, including environmental situations like storms, possible attacks by sea creatures/other ships, perception based interactions, a tavern below decks, and onboard crafting stations among others. I could be on board with naval travel being an adventure if properly implemented, having seen what VR has done so far I have faith they could pull it off if they wanted to, but simply cramming anything remotely plausible onto a boat in order to reinforce long travel times is silly. If continental boat travel is required ship owner's wouldn't need to make amenity filled boats to get business, and new adventurer's wouldn't be able to afford that anyway, the boat's job is to be a boat, that's it. As far as the length of time involved, I agree it needs to be substantial and feel realistic based on the world, but an hour boat ride is ridiculous. There is a sweet spot somewhere between instant gratification and nonsense, 8 to 12 minutes depending on destination would be my uneducated guess. Almost wish I could log into p99 to help remember/time boat rides.
TLDR: There seems to be a trend of lobbying for unreasonable time sinks. I don't want to play BoatQuest, BankQuest, or AuctionQuest.
I enjoyed the boat in EQ and i would like to see a return here, but only if it traverses an actual explorable area, like in EQ. Jumping off and swimming to that island with the sisters of marr, etc gave the game some life and personality. Also, i want to be able to craft our own little boats like in VG and use those as well. Plus, riding the boat should be a money sink also...there should be an automatic admission fee on the boat, and if we have craftable boats, a licensing/registration fee as well. As i recall in VG, you needed bigger boats to reach certain areas..not every boat could go everywhere, and you had to be pretty wealthy to buy the biggest boats...at least i think that is how it was.
I disliked waiting for the boats in EQ. I suppose its heresy to say, but I loved the addition of PoK books to the game. I found the whole affair tedious and unnecessary - it confuses me how people romanticize what is the gaming equivalent of sitting in the doctor's waiting room.
I will never support "baking in" boredom into what is supposed to be a GAME.
Martell said:I disliked waiting for the boats in EQ. I suppose its heresy to say, but I loved the addition of PoK books to the game. I found the whole affair tedious and unnecessary - it confuses me how people romanticize what is the gaming equivalent of sitting in the doctor's waiting room.
I will never support "baking in" boredom into what is supposed to be a GAME.
It wasn't about boredom, it was about bringing the world to life by separating places by time and distance.
It was also an opportunity to fish, train language, socialize, utilize vendors, raise your swimming or a variety of other activities.
Martell said:I disliked waiting for the boats in EQ. I suppose its heresy to say, but I loved the addition of PoK books to the game. I found the whole affair tedious and unnecessary ...
Suspect you may be missing the point (or perhaps not?)
1. With rare exceptions, nobody likes waiting.
2. It was certainly tedious (though there were, and could be more, things to minimise the tedium).
So surely removing boats in favour of 'PoK Books' (or any analogous mechanism) would seem a no-brainer?
Well.... no.
In a virtual world (or GAME as you put it) distance is purely measured in travel time.
There is NO OTHER METRIC that holds water.
This means the world is defined by 'how long it takes to travel from point A to B'. ANY erosion of this value makes the world smaller. It is really as simple as that. The 'distance' from Freeport to Kaladim is not measured on a map.
With boat it is : (estimated values for clarity, not accuracy)
Get on boat (travel + mean wait = 13 mins)
Travel to BB on ship (mean wait = 20 mins)
Travel to City from docks (average 7 mins)
TOTAL DISTANCE = 40 minutes.
Now consider with 'PoK Books'
Click FP Book (2-3 min)
Walk to BB Book/click (30 secs)
Walk to Kaladim (1 min 30 secs)
TOTAL DISTANCE = 4 mins
So post-'PoK books' the distance from FP to Kaladim shrank 90%!
So while the 'whole affair' may be 'tedious' it is absolutely NOT 'unnecessary '.
This is not to say that we should not be looking for ways to lessen the tedium while on the boat, just that the travel 'time-sink', as you put it, is actually a necessary one to maintain the size of the world. Without it you are merely playing a 'browser game' where you 'click on the zone you want to play today'. Nobody is restricted by travelling through zones in any meaningful way and so the entire player-base is sitting in their 'level appropriate cage' in a one-dimensional theme-park game.
PS: Anyone mentions the 'Kessel run' and I shall set my pet on them!
Evoras said:This is not to say that we should not be looking for ways to lessen the tedium while on the boat, just that the travel 'time-sink', as you put it, is actually a necessary one to maintain the size of the world. Without it you are merely playing a 'browser game' where you 'click on the zone you want to play today'. Nobody is restricted by travelling through zones in any meaningful way and so the entire player-base is sitting in their 'level appropriate cage' in a one-dimensional theme-park game.
Unfortunately, players leaving the computer in order to cure their ennui for the duration of a trip is also not a meaningful way to traverse zones.
As you said, it's still an option to explore ways that make the experience less tedious, and I hope the developers compromise on this issue by including interactive features on boat rides. Maybe lore-based mini-games.
I also loved what Vanguard did with respect to boats - made them player-operated.
Evoras said: the world is defined by 'how long it takes to travel from point A to B'. ANY erosion of this value makes the world smaller. It is really as simple as that. The 'distance' from Freeport to Kaladim is not measured on a map.i
Guess what, it's all a fantasy regardless. That does NOT require actual development methods that make the gameplay experience unpleasant (i.e. doctor's waiting room) to FORCE a feeling of... uh.. largeness.
As a D&D DM, I wouldn't require my players to sit and wait for 10 minutes to catch a boat. or as an author I wouldn't print 100 blank pages to convey the feeling of starting a campfire - I would compress the time to continue the narrative.
At some point you have to expect your audience to absorb/FEEL the environment, hopefully by using tools that are pleasant and desirable. Holding an audience hostage has NEVER resulted in art - it just fosters resentment.
Martell said:Evoras said: the world is defined by 'how long it takes to travel from point A to B'. ANY erosion of this value makes the world smaller. It is really as simple as that. The 'distance' from Freeport to Kaladim is not measured on a map.iGuess what, it's all a fantasy regardless. That does NOT require actual development methods that make the gameplay experience unpleasant (i.e. doctor's waiting room) to FORCE a feeling of... uh.. largeness.
As a D&D DM, I wouldn't require my players to sit and wait for 10 minutes to catch a boat. or as an author I wouldn't print 100 blank pages to convey the feeling of starting a campfire - I would compress the time to continue the narrative.
At some point you have to expect your audience to absorb/FEEL the environment, hopefully by using tools that are pleasant and desirable. Holding an audience hostage has NEVER resulted in art - it just fosters resentment.
For you maybe, but not for me. Not everyone likes the same things.
The boat ride was part of "the narrative" for me.
Dullahan said:The boat ride was part of "the narrative" for me.
I didn't like the boats in Everquest.
However, I DID like the boat quest in Everquest 2, that allowed me to go to the "Enchanted Lands".
I felt like it was a fun way to advance the narrative, but I do understand how it could have been a barrier for entry. I personally found it to be a problem because I had to wait a week before there was "critical mass" of players available to do anything worthwhile in the enchanted lands.
My point is, that while I personally enjoyed this sort of thing- it didn't translate to something that the general public liked or found enjoyable. Eventually, (quite quickly actually), the developers of EQ2 realized that they were needlessly segregating the player base, and did away with it.
Although I thought the experience was good, I recognized the necessity of keeping players together - nothing wrong with that.
Personal anecdote, I know - but I think it adequately demonstrates that the I vs. WE argument isn't necessarilly valid.
@Martell
The issue I see with a 'narrative' element to replace a boat's 'travel time':
In both a book and a single-player RPG, the aim is to draw you into the story. Once inside the story, you (as author) are able to emply descriptive elements to indicate the passage of time. In books, a descriptive passage is used to link the travel, in single-0player RPGs this may translate into a cut-scene, perhaps. As a D&D GM you will emply various means to give the impression of a passage of time. I would generally use NPCs you met in the next town/village to talk about events that happened while you had been travelling.
In an MMO, however, you have more than one 'reader', more than one protagonist (hero), more than one person to get to experience slow travel pace .... while others are running about. If other players cannot kill even 1 orc in the time it takes you to travel 2000 miles, then you have broken the concept of 'regionality' and 'distance'. Players *will* just bounce around, destroying immersion, lore, the developers view of the world and ultimately destroying any socialisation.
You will likely cite the hypothetical two friends who create characters which start miles apart.
'EASE' answer = let them whizz towards each other in no time at all ('everyone gets everything').
MY answer = think about your choices before you have to live with their consequences.
This, I fear, is a polarising point.
In my view, 'ubiquitous instant travel = death for this game's vision/uniqueness'
PS : (Trigger Warning: British sense of humour alert)
J.R.R. Tolkien is considered at least an 'ok' author by many. In the Lord of the Rings the author used pages and pages of slow paced desciptions to give the reader the impression of a long travel time at a slow pace. Now, if it is good enough for him... should we not at least consider it??
Last time I checked Frodo didn't use the Hobbiton 'teleporter stone' to get to the Mount Doom one. But, sure... probably a less 'tedious' book, huh?
I think it was my reading of the Hobbit and LoTR that probably led me to appreciate the distance and danger as well as the time factor involved in travel.
Some people just won't get it though.
This is not to say I don't think we should have activities to engage in while riding a boat. Maybe even the occasional mob attack. Maybe random NPCs which might offer quests, lore or a vendor selling rare items. I wouldn't even be against storms which take you out of the way at times leaving you shipwrecked (futher inconvenience).
I do like the idea of boats, it does give a sense of scale and grandness of the world (although I might be looking through a rose tinted visor though).
The one thing I do remember is the lack of things to do. I remember thinking at the time, what if there were vendors on board or a quest that could be picked up or a lot of different things. You could still give the sense of scale but also make it interesting.
Make ships little hubs of interest. Different sized boats having different mechanics. Larger ones with crafting stations, smaller ones with traders with rare and exotic items for sale. Put just enough things on board to make it interesting for those that want some interaction and not a requirement to allow those that want to while the time away looking overboard and chatting to friends.
Eliseus: I would love boats to take time long as they have meaning. For example, taking a boat has a chance at pirate attacks on the deck, while low level people can still stay under and not worry about dying.
I would also like to see some game interaction with some ocean routes; random pirate attacks, giant sea monsters, rare encounters with deities in mist strewn becalmed waters, granting rare quests to those that are worthy. Anything that would make a single journey unexpectedly exciting. The boat rides should cater to the destination zone for the level of encounter. The higher the destination zone, the worse any encounter would be. If you were a low level character going to a high level island, I don’t think you should feel safe or expect to live.
I think a lot could be done with boat rides that would make it both interesting and relaxing from time to time. There are a lot of ideas that should be incorporated into boat rides that people have suggested, just don’t make every ride long and uninteresting.
Dullahan: Just the idea that there were far off places and everything wasn't instantly accessible made EQ an amazing and unique game.
The easier and quicker the journey, the smaller and less interesting the world becomes. Instant travel does have its uses, but the more available it is and the more it is used, the less the outside world matters.
OldTony: Time Schedule would be anti-inmersive, but certainly in cities port authority could make some calls that give a hint on how far/near boat is. But this option shouldnt be in smaller docks.
I think you could make this immersive. For instance, you could have a magical map in each dock's HQ that showed the world and images of where the boats are on that map. That would give an indication of how long a time you have before it gets to your dock.
Ashvalid: I like the idea of having a big boat/mini city with maybe a 30 minute travel time, eq style with the ocean zones being explorable. Minigames/gambling in a boat bar. That would be fun. Smaller boats with less travel time for island hopping
Ditto. I was just thinking about a pirate base floating out in the ocean made from boats lashed together, with their own factions and quests and the like. Ooo-arrh.
Options are always nice if not necessarily practical. It'd be nice to have more than one boat: one that goes straight from continent to continent that takes 10-15 min and another that might take a wandering path around islands and what not 'trading' which might give you opportunities for encounters etc.
everett said:Options are always nice if not necessarily practical. It'd be nice to have more than one boat: one that goes straight from continent to continent that takes 10-15 min and another that might take a wandering path around islands and what not 'trading' which might give you opportunities for encounters etc.
See, now this is a good solution. More boats plying the same route would have gone a long way to shortening the trip yet not trivializing the size of the world. Think back to every time you went to the docks and count the number of times that you arrived with the boat sitting there ready to go? Once? Twice? no more than just a few times I'd guess. It was the waiting time for the next boat that seemed to take forever because until you got onto the boat you couldn't go AFK.
But, put in more boats and the waiting time goes down yet 'the trip' still has still keep the size of the world from shrinking.
What also would have helped reduce the boredom of the boats was if OOT actually had some usuable content. Huge zone with next to nothing in it at all. The zone had no compelling content for nearly all classes. Nothing really group worthy either. A boat ride that would have served additional purposes could have fixed a lot of issues.
Obliquity said:The boats arrived every 15mins in EQ, would just fish for few and then catch the boat.
Wasnt as bad as people want to make it seem.
Exactly. We would always have someone who would yell "BOAT!!!!!" when the boat would come in...I made good friends this way.
Could have an NPC yell out occasionally that the boat is expected to dock in X minutes, or have (as mentioned prior) a message board with time expected for boat arrivals and departures like the flight boards at an airport. Maybe dock bells would ring out when the boat arrives...
There are plenty of things to do while waiting...learn a language, restock your bags, maybe visit the local tavern and play a game of cards or play the lotto from the local gambler chief. Have a drink, visit the merchant...craft a bit?
I remember sitting on the docks waiting for the boat from BB to Freeport, and making silk swatches and getting my tailoring skill up. I would make batwing crunchies and all kinds of food for my guildie, as well as foraging fishing grubs and fishing off the dock...praying that that named aqua goblin didn't sneak up on me. I loved the boat rides, even at high levels, and it made me sad when POK made the world seem so very very small :(
Evoras said:Last time I checked Frodo didn't use the Hobbiton 'teleporter stone' to get to the Mount Doom one. But, sure... probably a less 'tedious' book, huh?
Hehehe. :)
This analogy has one critical distinction, however, and that is that reading a book is an engaging action. I would rather read a book than, say, stare at my tray table for the entire duration of a flight. By the same token, I would rather read a book than stare at my character doing absolutely nothing on a boat.
Maybe I will read Tolkien while on a boat. ;)
I admit I'm confused as to your position on activities on boat rides now that you've made this analogy. I think this discussion has been productive, and I like where recent posts have taken it - are you still in favor of activities on boat rides? If so, are there any particular features that you would like to see implemented?
I like the idea of activities at the Docks, while waiting for the boats. Besides just fishing. Merchants to sell off junk, restock food and water type supplies. "IF" auction houses don't auto deliver (I hope not) then the Docks could be a good location for people making trades to meet up. The boats as I remember them were actually pretty quick.... it was the wait that took time.
AlannaTheFair said:... I would rather read a book than, say, stare at my tray table for the entire duration of a flight....
Nearly sneezed my coffee laughing when I read this!
In answer to your question, though: Yes, absolutely in favour of something to break the tedium.
My Criteria:
1. The activities should not be ones that have high development overheads (at least pre-launch)
2. They should not cause other problems/break immersion (Eg access global AH from ship)
My Suggestions:
1. Mysterious (random from list) NPC travellers.
They have specific factions or status (eg Noblewoman, Master Weaponsmith) and should be difficult to start a conversation with. Once started it should be moderately-hard to build a relationship with them. You may have to buy them drinks, show them a curiosity or something they are interested in (eg Lore equivalent of: Hummel figurines, 1950 baseball cards, starwars memorabilia). You may have to 'know' a friend of theirs ('Lady Sontara is *such* a poor dancer') as proof etc. These acts raise personal faction until you get a quest. Their movements should not all be predictable. The lower category of Mystery NPC (easy) should be fairly predictable, (medium) less so and (hard) waaay harder to pin down.
2. Ships facilities
Dependent on size, ships will have *some* facilities. Most would have a small tailor station (repair of sails) and a kitchen (crew meals). Using them should either have to be paid for and/or require faction with the (i) specific crewmember (eg Ships cook) (ii) Ship's Captain. You may have to work on faction with the various crew first. Some of the larger ships may have 2 opposing crew factions. Much larger ships on longer trips may have more facilities. NOTE there is no bank aboard.
Very large (passenger) ships may have gambling or other facilities : see 'social facilities' below
3. Social Facilities
These are designed to keep passengers happy on long voyages.
a) Lounge / Bar / Tap-room (Drinks / food)
b) Bard spot in corner of Lounge / bar. (Music)
c) (Gambling is a problem in USA over electronic medium cross-states)
d) Trader (only goods aimed at passengers, perhaps odd 'curio')
e) Newspaper seller (from all ports visited by ship)
4. (Sea) Fishing
This could be 'standard' fishing, or perhaps a variant 'Deep Sea Fishing'. Requires bigger rod, stronger reel and line and bigger fish as bait. Up-side is you can try to catch a marlin.... or have your rod torn out of your hands. Or accidently snag a passing sahauguin who climbs on board looking very irritated indeed.
5. Passing points of interest:
Opportunities for players to explore etc. Getting back aboard next ship may be tricky :)
6. Minor Incident:
a) Passing trader ship,
b) shoal of unusual fish (wish you had learned 'sea fishing' now, huh?),
c) torn sail (20 min delay, reduced by players with tailoring helping out - whcih raises their faction)
d) ship's food spoiled (-10% speed, +faction for anyone who provides food for crew)
e) Ship springs leak (-25% speed, +faction for any carpenter who helps fix it)
f) NPC falls overboard.
They can be 'rescued' to start a 'take me to place X' escort quest. Boat won't wait.
See 'major Incidents (e)' for how to save them.
7. Major Incident:
a) Assassination attempt : could be on an 'mystery' NPC (help save = +faction)
b) Rogue/Pirate Myr Incursion : attack on crew/passengers by spawning waves of Brigands/Pirates (Main benefit = small share of loot, +faction from all crew, -faction with Nutty_Myr_Pirates etc.)
c) Big-Ass fog bank with becalming and undead floating in (WARNING: DEV work needed)
d) Attack of the Monster (think GIGANTIC squid with 8 tentacles) (WARNING: DEV work needed)
e) Mutiny on board. (WARNING: DEV work needed)(WARNING: possible PvP option)
Choose a side to help (+Faction_SideHelped, -Faction_SideFought) or avoid (-tiny_Faction for both sides). May have to pay 'ransom' if on wrong side or didn't help at all. WARNING If you want to get adventurous, can have the ship declared 'PvP zone' for the duration of the battle.
NB : Make sure players are allowed to jump overboard if they so wish! Some NPCs may do so too. If the player has strong swim skill and targets NPC they can try to 'save' them from drowning (typing 'backslash rescue NPC_name'). This is same mechanic as 'drag' for corpses and only works in water. Once on land they will 'follow' you as long as you head towards destination, or don't head in another way for more than X mins. Completion gets you +faction with NPC and possible bonuses (cash, introduction, who knows)
f) Ship sinks as the drunk crewman decides to build himself a jacuzzi under his bunk....
TLDR: No, it doesn't have to be super-tedious....
... and these suggestions don't even cover Player-to-Player interactions!
Evoras, wants ship travel to take time!
I'll just say this - if you guys can make the game's boat travel enticing in some way - SELL YOUR IDEAS TO THE AIRLINES.
I can't help but equate sitting in the damn terminal (with all its boozey/mall-like attractions) to waiting on a fictitious fantasy boat, bound for adventure.
Sarah (my wife) and I have travelled the world, and been to some amazing locales - but I HATE the travelling part of equation. The destination is all that I have ever cared about, and that seems pretty normal to me.
Put all the trimmings on it that you like, the getting there will never be more than a necessary penance for being there. Or at least, that's my personal experience, both in real life and in a silly little game version of life.
I will say this just once....
1. Modern transport (Bus / Train / Plane)
Designed as 'Mass transport' with the primary (only) goal to get passengers from A to B as fast as possible.
Designed to be impersonal
Designed to be easy to turn around to minimise time wasted
Designed to MAKE THE WORLD FEEL SMALL
2. Leisure transport (cruise, orient express, trekking)
Designed as 'individual transport' with primary goal 'enjoyment of the travel experience'
Designed to be personal
Designed to maximise enjoyment over time wasted (cruise ships avoid bad weather)
Designed to SHOW YOU THE WONDERS OF A HUGE WORLD
With our modern, cosmopilitan travellers, 'rushing to the holiday experience' is undertsandable since you have limited (short) holiday time. IF you impose modern criteria on the game world, you are feeding the idea that it is the destination that is the important point and not the journey.
In a game DESIGNED to provide an alternative to the 'convenience, fast-paced world' MMOs out there ....
... WHY would you want option-1 above instead of option-2 ??
It is my (personal) feeling that :
The Journey IS the adventure.... NOT the destination.
PS: Airlines don't want to make travel enticing. They may work to make you think it is, but it isn't and will never be. I had flown over 80,000 km by the time I was 15 years old. If you follow the 'impersonal' dictat foisted on you by the airlines, then your travel will be extremely tedious. To relieve boredom, talk to the passengers, talk to the crew. Travel is absolutely NOT 'dead time'. This is a myth both created and perpetuated by the marketing departments of companies making mobile phones, tablets, mp3 players etc. If you buy into this ennui driven paradigm, you will forever be locked into tedium. Can I suggest a cruise? or in the words of a (now antiquated) piece of pop culture ....
'would you like to play a game of chess?'
Martell said:I'll just say this - if you guys can make the game's boat travel enticing in some way - SELL YOUR IDEAS TO THE AIRLINES.
I can't help but equate sitting in the damn terminal (with all its boozey/mall-like attractions) to waiting on a fictitious fantasy boat, bound for adventure.
Sarah (my wife) and I have travelled the world, and been to some amazing locales - but I HATE the travelling part of equation. The destination is all that I have ever cared about, and that seems pretty normal to me.
Put all the trimmings on it that you like, the getting there will never be more than a necessary penance for being there. Or at least, that's my personal experience, both in real life and in a silly little game version of life.
Well, I have to say that this pretty much proves the point of why people want boats...realism. You went to XYZ but still HAD TO GET THERE, and getting there takes time. People like the boats because they are not a MASSIVE investment of time, and they make the world seem more real and more alive. No matter what, you have to invest time to get places, otherwise, as someone else said, it is just the web based "what zone do i want to play today" simulator with a single click. People want a measured amount of "tedium" when it adds flavor and life to the world they are playing in...people want to reproduce that first feeling they had in EQ (I will never forget how i felt running out of freeport for the first time...no game has ever come close to that again).
Instant travel starts along the same path as dungeon finders with instant porting, quest hubs, gear that rains down in a constant linear progression, ! or ? on NPCs, etc...precisely the thing most people here are hoping to escape. Wizard and druid porting in limited ranges and amounts at stones and circles added life to EQ as well, and added convenience, but never fully eliminated the boat. I personally want boat rides, and I want them to take a little time...not 30 minutes (but i think 10 is fine), and I want them to traverse areas with things to do and see, like EQ. I do NOT want to just always port instant to the "action." That is where people get bored, because just like games that let people level to 50 in 3 days, people think they want that but they don't. It kills the game, because those people max out in a few days then burn out and move on to the next game. Sometimes getting there IS being there.