Now now, put the pitchforks and torches away. I'm not asking this question for myself, but for my friend. I think most of us can agree that controlling your character with the keyboard/mouse is always more effective than playing with a controller.
My good friend, on the other hand, suffers from carpal tunnel that turns him into a whiney, pitiful wretch anytime I force him to play a game that's heavy on the mouse. I'd rather not hear the blubbering. So much so, that I'd trade his effectiveness as a player for a chance to not hear the whining.
So my question is, will Pantheon be compatible with game controllers for those who suffer the same ailment? Or, alternatively, maybe enough keyboard shortcuts that make the mouse unnecessary for him? I recall some games allowed you to loot corpses, for example, with a hotbutton on your keyboard. EQ you could open doors with the "U" key, or an alternative key if you choose.
Frankly, I'm not worried about this myself. I would never play with a controller. But would this be worth spending the time making sure it's doable in Pantheon for those who can't/won't? Thoughts?
-Tralyan
Alas, my pitchfork is at the shop right now, but I can use a spork if you like :D
I know of people, who prefer controllers. I can see a lot of situations, like disabilities, when that's necessary. I like the kb mouse combo myself, though.
I wonder, has your friend tried the types of mice (mouses?) the ones that look like joysticks? Or ones that look like small rolling pins, which you can attach to the keyboard? They're made for situations like these.
I play using a trackball, partially due to tendon issues that can flare up in my hand and wrist. The trackball allows me to rest my arm and wrist and keep them stationary. Takes a few days to adjust but now it is so natural and comfortable.
And it keeps other people from using my PC since they can't control the cursor. :P
I also keep an additional regualr mouse handy for when I do still get a flare up, usually from excessive typing for several days, then I can resort to left hand mouse opertion.
This is intresting. Since the hotkeys will be limited one could use the controller to move around and select the abilities to use while fighting etc.
Obsouly other UIs in the game woun't work with a controller but you could use a move for those activities.
This could work for most of the fighting I think with mapped buttons to spells abilities etc.
I think it would honestly probably be viable if the combat system is built to support it.
I played EQOA for years (PS2 controller for playing, USB keyboard for typing) and it was honestly pretty good. However, that was developed as a PS2 exclusive so it was built from the ground up to support keyboards. The entire game, including combat mechanics and such.
I think it's very doable but it would take a lot of time, effort, and money to not leave controller players extremely disadvantaged. I honestly would probably play Pantheon with a controller if it didn't ruin my performance. EQ would be impossible to play with a controller, for instance.
Then you are going to ask for real horses as mounts...
I think the team needs to get teh sytem built and then add these types of perfs. I think its a good idea though.
Ox
Just be sure you don't take the approach Skyrim did and have to require mods to fix the UI and a few other issues because the game was built for controllers. Pretty sure this game being an MMO won't have the same modding capability to fix it for the mouse/keyboard users.
Obviously you wouldn't be able to type but controller support seems easy since you presumably can map functions/spells/abilities to whatever key you would like. Not much different than multibutton mouse.
FierinaFuryfist said:Just be sure you don't take the approach Skyrim did and have to require mods to fix the UI and a few other issues because the game was built for controllers. Pretty sure this game being an MMO won't have the same modding capability to fix it for the mouse/keyboard users.
Obviously you wouldn't be able to type but controller support seems easy since you presumably can map functions/spells/abilities to whatever key you would like. Not much different than multibutton mouse.
To be fair, it's a PC game. KB/M would be the first inputs the game is designed for (it's already been designed for that), so controller support would simply be an afterthought.
Realistically speaking you can already achieve this using third party software to emulate keypresses with a controller, but it's almost always better if it's supported natively.
Amsai said: Ive done this very thing for some action MMOs because it made more sense to me for an MMO that played more like street fighter (combo chains). The problem is finding one that works good and is easy to use but doesnt set off byult in anti cheat software (even though you arent cheating).
New thread incoming. This one will be juicy.
I'm actually seeing more pro-controller folks than I thought I'd see. I've never used a controller for an MMO, but I was always under the impression that KB/M was superior in just about every way when it came to MMO efficacy. Is that not the general consensus?
Either way, good news for my friend.
Tralyan said:I'm actually seeing more pro-controller folks than I thought I'd see. I've never used a controller for an MMO, but I was always under the impression that KB/M was superior in just about every way when it came to MMO efficacy. Is that not the general consensus?
Either way, good news for my friend.
KB/M is generally considered superior in just about every way. However, some games have alternative UIs that you can toggle on for controller use that make it viable.
It really just depends on how the game is made. A game like RIFT would be pretty simple to play with a controller, or FFXIV:ARR. A game like EQ or EQ2 would be virtually impossible due to the fact that you need 100+ buttons to press and there's no reasonable way to map that to a controller.
Actually the only issue with using a gamepad would be manual targeting. Such as in action MMOs or ground targeting. And while Ill admit setting 100 or more buttons isnt practicle it isnt impossible. Besides Ive rarely ever encountered a game whwre you truly NEED 100 plus buttons. I can usually keep it simple with the top 20 for that class. Or even as much as 40 and be alright. You can use various buttons on a controller as "shift" butons or multifunctuon buttons like tap, double tap, and press and hold with most newer gamepads. That can be intimidating to some folks but if you have played a lot of console games its not that difficult to get used to.
It does depend on the game though. And if its built for kb and mouse or not. Has anyone ever tried the 3rd party kb and m work arounds for console shooters? Its pretty fricking terrible. Better to just not play the console or get good with a gamepad at that point but too each their own. I would also say there are a lot of actiony games like 2d platformers and fighter games in which clearly using a gamepad is superior. Just like racing games and flight simulators are much better with special accessories like a steering wheel and gas and pedal.
And the one area I know gamepads are superior and pisses me off there is no kb and mouse equivalent is analog movement. WASD is soooo bad. Even on games I can set up a gamepad to use for PC its usually just made to mimic it but is still not true analog mivement.
On EverQuest I had roughly 80 buttons to press and they were all mandatory to have available at all times. In Vanguard I had about 20-30. In EQ2 I had about 100.
Regardless, a gamepad doesn't necessitate manual targeting. Just having a well-designed tab target function bound to L1 (like the PS2 game EverQuest Online Adventures did) was more than sufficient.
Even so, WASD is kind of a misrepresentation of how camera and mouse movement works in most MMOs. Keyboard turners are obviously just not doing it right, but I personally consider KB+M to be superior for virtually any MMO I've played. While it's not "true analog" movement I don't really see any value in "true analog" within the content of most MMO mechanics. For instance, I don't think EQ has anything to gain gameplay wise from it. I can say the same for Vanguard and, most likely, Pantheon.
Edit: Even so, I'm still not against the concept of controller input for Pantheon.
Liav said:On EverQuest I had roughly 80 buttons to press and they were all mandatory to have available at all times.
I know I was a 14 year old awkward kid with long hair and a lot of teen angst, so maybe I'm remembering wrong - but I don't think we played the same EQ. 80? Really?
Tralyan said:Liav said:On EverQuest I had roughly 80 buttons to press and they were all mandatory to have available at all times.
I know I was a 14 year old awkward kid with long hair and a lot of teen angst, so maybe I'm remembering wrong - but I don't think we played the same EQ. 80? Really?
I went back and looked at my hotbars just now, it's actually about 70 buttons, not 80. About 55-60 of them are normal game functions with the remaining 10-15 being MacroQuest2 functions.
So yeah, close enough.
HOWEVER, my Monk on Phinigel only uses about 20. That's what 17 years of evolution gets you, I suppose.
Liav said:On EverQuest I had roughly 80 buttons to press and they were all mandatory to have available at all times. In Vanguard I had about 20-30. In EQ2 I had about 100.
Regardless, a gamepad doesn't necessitate manual targeting. Just having a well-designed tab target function bound to L1 (like the PS2 game EverQuest Online Adventures did) was more than sufficient.
Even so, WASD is kind of a misrepresentation of how camera and mouse movement works in most MMOs. Keyboard turners are obviously just not doing it right, but I personally consider KB+M to be superior for virtually any MMO I've played. While it's not "true analog" movement I don't really see any value in "true analog" within the content of most MMO mechanics. For instance, I don't think EQ has anything to gain gameplay wise from it. I can say the same for Vanguard and, most likely, Pantheon.
Edit: Even so, I'm still not against the concept of controller input for Pantheon.
I wasnt doubting your set up Liav, just to be clear. People play different ways, and I think we can agree it depends on the class. For example mages usually have more skills than melee. Just sayng Ive never had that particular problem.
On the manual targeting thing. Of course you are right, a game doesnt have to be designed that way, and I dont expect Pantheon to be anything other than tab target so it shouldnt come up. I was just saying in general for games that do my biggest issue on keying PC game's controls to a gamepad is not actually being able to do it, but being competitive using right analog stick aiming vs someone using a mouse.
Analog movement equivalent is personal preference, and I wasnt refering to it only for MMOs but for PC gaming in general. For the PC master race, its a bit embarassing that there is still no proper analog movement in particular for games that need it/ should have it. As for how to use it in an MMO, Its a small thing that really annoys me but have you ever tried keying the wasd movement to the left analog stick on a gamepad? You cant quite obviously see the right angle turning points as the analog stick tries and fails to change wasd digital movement into seamless analog movement. Does it make it unplayable? No. Does it drive me nuts? Yes!
Yeah gotcha, wasn't trying to be argumentative.
I know exactly what you mean regarding mapping a controller to WASD, it very clearly doesn't work well at all. I've tried but I never really tried to play the game that way.
I would totally use a controller like I originally said. Something about it feels right to me, KB+M never really clicked for me in the same way, even though I absolutely consider them to be mandatory input devices for a game like EQ.
I'm just reiterating myself at this point but yeah, we basically agree. I'd like to see it.
Liav said:Tralyan said:Liav said:On EverQuest I had roughly 80 buttons to press and they were all mandatory to have available at all times.
I know I was a 14 year old awkward kid with long hair and a lot of teen angst, so maybe I'm remembering wrong - but I don't think we played the same EQ. 80? Really?
I went back and looked at my hotbars just now, it's actually about 70 buttons, not 80. About 55-60 of them are normal game functions with the remaining 10-15 being MacroQuest2 functions.
So yeah, close enough.
HOWEVER, my Monk on Phinigel only uses about 20. That's what 17 years of evolution gets you, I suppose.
That sounds more right. Damn that evolution.
I played a rogue in '00. Pretty sure I had maybe 8 buttons I used all the time. What was it ... Sneak, Hide, Backstab, a few text macros maybe? Another old EQ rogue could probably refresh my memory. The rest were intermittent uses. Sense heading, pick lock, etc.
Anyway, tangent, sorry to de-rail.
Tralyan said:That sounds more right. Damn that evolution.
I played a rogue in '00. Pretty sure I had maybe 8 buttons I used all the time. What was it ... Sneak, Hide, Backstab, a few text macros maybe? Another old EQ rogue could probably refresh my memory. The rest were intermittent uses. Sense heading, pick lock, etc.
Anyway, tangent, sorry to de-rail.
Disciplines and clickies!
Deadeye, Duelist, Kinesthetics, Counterattack, etc.
Also clickies like Monk 1.0, Amulet of Necropotence, Guise of the Deceiver, Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring, Journeyman's Boots, etc.
Had to keep that top buff slot filled for dispells like Naggy/Vox.