Just throwing in my 2 cents here,
I'm definitely a proponent of controller support in MMO's after playing FF14 for so long. But what it means to have controller support in this way means that the devs need to accomplish 3 things that ff14 did extremely well:
1) Efficient ways to bind abilities. FF14 accomplished this by binding abilities to your ABXY and d-pad buttons, and hten letting you quick swap to other sets by holding down L2/R2 and also by pressing R1 to cycle. This was great and let me keep my main 32 abiltiies pretty accessible.
2) Movement. The thing that the controller needs to do well is overcome the MMO 'tank controls' that M&K controls are okay with, but are just not a good user experience for controller players. FF14's solution to this was to make player movement on a controller feel exactly like previous final fantasy single player games, or dark souls, or zelda, or whatever console game you want to point to. If i push left, my character turns and faces left independent (mostly) of the camera. The camera slowly tracks as needed, but movement feels good this way on a controller.
3) Menu navigation. The first two items are great, but it's not going to be enough if every time I want to use a menu (changing abilities, crafting, gear, etc) I need to switch back over to M&K to accomplish it. I don't want to have a mouse and keyboard next to me on the couch when I'm trying to relax and game with friends. So the menu's have to have controller navigation in mind, and the visual design of hte menu needs to have clear indications to the controller user about how to navigate it.
These three things combined add design, development, and testing time to the team's plate. One thing that's pretty handy about just considering mouse and keyboard is that the team doesnt really have to consider what feels good in terms of camera movement. Just some simple snapback features and mostly the user controlls their camera. So I'm not going to hold my breath that this type of feature makes it into the game day 1. I'm sure Vsionary Realms has decent idea of what their minimum viable product is at this point and I'd wager that controller support isn't in there.
For me, it's not a deal breaker to be forced to use M&K. I still play many PC games and it's fine. But for games where I want to sit down and play for really long stretches (MMO's) it's such a quality of life improvement, and one of the reasons I still crack open FF14 and play here and there. The controller improves the joy factor of playing and is going to keep a subset of the playerbase playing for a longer period of time.
Thanks for reading,
Funkeytown
P.S. This is my first post on these forums after having backed this game almost a year ago. So just wanted to say: I'm super stoked for this game and I love what VR is doing. We need a modern 'hardcore' feeling MMO's with group focus in an age of instant gratification. Top marks guys.
I just thought I'd put in my own opinion about controllers in MMO's.
I've been playing MMO's since 2000 when I was quite little, starting naturally with Everquest (on the Rallos Zek Server if anyone is interested. I was stupid back then.). Since then I've moved on to World of Warcraft, becoming a full-blown raid-healer MMO player then moving on to FFXIV after it's A Realm Reborn restart as a main raid tank as a Warrior again, the class I started with in EQ. All this time, playing only with a mouse and keyboard.
The last year I started to have trouble keeping up with my class in FFXIV, the Dark Knight. I mean physically keeping up. I had three action bars and a Merc Stealth keyboard from Steelseries, I LOVE this keyobard so much. Anyway, it turns out I've started to develop arthritis in my hands. I couldn't play as a tank in 14 anymore. So, during a fun "homeless" stent during a mold infestation at the house, I played 14 on my PS4 at a random condo with my wife and discovered all the stuff I can do with a controller. I could actually keep up with a controller, I would just have to re-learn the class.
Now I will say, with the design of Pantheon that I've seen so far, I seriously doubt that being able to hit all the keys quick enough is going to be a problem. The limited pallet of abilities, which I desperately love, and the EQ-pace of combat, which I also love, will certainly make it easier to play. I can only see dexterity problems like this, however, getting worse in the future for MMO players. I hope there will be controller support eventually, as I seriously think it will greatly benifit the ease of access to Pantheon to a wider audience. That, and my wife will enjoy playing more. With controller support, who knows. Maybe, many years down the line, we'll eventually see support on a console too.
I found Dark souls imporrible to play on PC at first, since all the instructions were geared to controllers, I was looking for X and it wasnt doing what I expected, took a while to get around the muscle memory, I was kind of upset. Its still quirky.I have a hand written mapping to translate.
I have no problems with seeing how a controller could be configured to do everything that you can do with a mouse and keyboard, except for chat typing. I would always need a keyboard for that (wouldn't everybody?), and in a recent thread it became clear that many on this forum prefer typing over voice chat, including myself.
We are PC gamers and we love our options yeah sure having alternate control setups is a good thing. The worst thing for me is when a console title gets a PC release and their keyboard/mouse controls are awful. Forcing me to use a controller is depressing, having it as an option? A-OK.
For players with conditions that make M/KB difficult there are a few options. A Steam Contoller, Xbox Accessibility Controller, A programmable Flight Stick, I recall voice commander from a decade or so ago.. so maybe there is a modern comparable application that would allow more inclusion for disabled gamers, quite simple to link a voice command to a key press or series of key presses.
For any soloution to play effectively I'd suspect there will be some reliance on Macros and so far were not sure of how complex the macros can be as too complex and it can allow automated gameplay which will probably be against the T&Cs.
Ultimately its a small team but some leniency around macros for disabled gamers would not go amiss IMO. I was genuinely gobsmacked when a company like MS announced their Accessibility Controller, yeah they have the money but to make a product not designed purely about making as much profit as possible but to simply help a bunch of people access gaming.. fair play.
I don't have much to add in terms of how controller support might work, but it definitely seems feasible and a feature I would love (most of my MMO experience comes from EQOA on the PS2 so I might be somewhat jaded). Especially now as an adult where I work in front of a computer all day, it is much nicer when I want to game to sit on a couch with a controller rather than spend more time at my desk.
I am a big no on this.
Reason being is that designing for controller forces the development spectrum. That is, how your menus are navigated are limited to a controllers ability. This requires the developer to either design two control systems or make one the template. Since a controller can not act as fluid and free form as a mouse can, the controller becomes the constraint for menus and functions within the game.
This is why console ports to PC are so horrible and PC users feel constrained and conflicted if the developer does not put extra attention into dealing with the port.
Larian studios with their game Divinity Original Sin took the route of two control systems. They designed the game with PC/mouse focus interfaces, and then made a controller based system. Even so, they had to normalize between the two (always to the detriment of the mouse/keyboard player).
Fact is, controllers are inferior to mouse/keyboard. This has always been the case and those who might use modern games as evidence, keep in mind the very point I am making here, that game design MUST change to focus to that of the controller. This is why FPS games now have "cover"positions where you hit a button and take cover (as opposed to simply moving in slowly to an area ducking, or hiding behind something with mouse/keyboard). It is also why you have "iron sights" being the primary focus of play in modern games, because it allowed developers to control movement and aiming to a limited spectrum to provide for controllers to more easily adapt to such movements (ie they primarily only have to focus on two axes of aiming as opposed to three).
Point is, if they develop the game for controllers, it most certainly means the games menus and play will be adjusted to support controllers, making controllers being the design of the game.
So in my opinon, no... not simply a no, but a HELL NO!
Sorry if that is a bit brunt, but I have seen numerous games ruined by this approach.
Edit:
For those who want "controller" support, there is 3rd party software out there that will meet all your needs, we don't need VR wasting time on mainstreaming this game.
EppE said:As some have mentioned FF14 has Controller and KB/M support. They function near flawlessly together. When I'm doing fishing in FF14 I use my controller, when I'm doing dungeons I use my KB/M. It is near impossible to tell a controller user from a KB/M user in that game.
Yet how was FF14 designed? You can go on about how flawless it is together, but keep in mind how the functionaly is limited to controller dictating the mouse funciton.
Look at skyrim for instance. It was a console developed game. Look at the menus, everything can be used with a mouse, but the mouse is forced to a movement system of that of a controller (ie notice how the mouse has to be moved through step menus and then up and down through the inventory). Contrast that with morrowind which was designed for the PC. Notice how the inventory is based on using a mouse to freely move to the location without following linear menus to move through?
What you may call flawless, I call a lack of knowledge on how menus in PC games worked. The problem is, many games over the years have been forced to "controller" based design even though mouse/kepboard movement and function is far superior to controller ability. It is one of the reasons why when Halo was released, they tried to put PC and console players together, only to find that the console players were being destoyed by the limitations of controllers. These days, most games have the limitations of controllers "hard wired" into the games design, giving the appearance that contollers are equal in input capability. They are not, they are severely limited and they force development to their limitations if they are implemented.
Look up when they tried to port Baldur's Gate to Playstation and how it was nearly impossible due to the limitations of the controller, so they had to redesign the game from scratch.
Point is, if you limit your capabilities to that of the lowest common denominator, then you are not equally applying an asessment, you are merley forcing one to function at a limited capacity (which is what mouse/keyboard is forced to do in console games).
Please, no controllers, they are horrible.
Edit:
Just to further my point. The developer of Dark Souls when asked about the fact that the game was extremely unresponsive on their PC Port, why they didn't design a more functional and fluid system to the interface, he basically said it was because the large portion of the difficulty of Dark Souls was based on the limitations of the controller and having to deal with those limitations of movement and functionality in play.
This I verified as true. I picked up the game, and through a lot of effort (both through patches, and software/hardware tweaking) was able to make the game extremely functional with a mouse and keyboard. The game became VERY EASY after such.
A controller is a restrictive device, but because it is popular among a LARGE audience, it is also the go to input (most people first using mouse and keyboard fumble as bad as a person learning a controller for the first time) and so people don't get to the point of understanding how much power a keyboard/mouse has over a controller.
It is one of those VHS vs Beta issues, where VHS, a clearly inferior technology became the standard unfortunately.
FFXIV was designed from the beginning for consoles as well as computers and that was, continued to be and still is a weakness from the point of view of the computer player. It was inferior in a number of aspects to what it would have been if not limited by the need to run on a console using console equipment like controllers. While people have varying opinions on many things I think this statement is fact not opinion. It *was* designed deliberately to have a significant portion of the player base on consoles and this *did* limit it in terms of graphics, loading time (people on computers often need to wait for groupmates on consoles), and other aspects.
That said I disagree emphatically with the statement: "no controllers, they are horrible".
There are two different concepts at issue here.
I would agree strongly with those who have said that Pantheon should not be designed for controllers and should not be limited to only doing things that a controller can handle. Pantheon is intended as a computer game not a console game and where consoles have limitations that computers do not .... too bad. If players using controllers cannot play as easily as those using keyboards and mice that is not an issue for VR that is for the player to determine what devices he or she should use. No effort should be made to equalize the playing experience for controller users and others.
Yet this is far different than saying, as Tanix has, design the game so that it cannot run on controllers. As long as the game is not restricted to what controllers can do I have no objection to a bit of extra work being done to permit the use of controllers for those that enjoy them more or have physical limitations that they accomodate more readily than other equipment.
Embarrassing question, but I have played all my previous MMOs (Everquest, Vanguard, WoW) with a keyboard and mouse and I would like to know how a controller would work for communication in a game like Pantheon? Do you use the controller to play in addition to a keyboard to communicate, or are you forced to use some sort of voice to text system (for those who dislike voicechat)? Being in the occupational therapy field, and working with upper extremity conditions regularly, I am intrigued and open to the idea of a controller but would this make the game world less conversational? Typically we recommend a vertical mouse for our patients with carpal tunnel / lateral epicondylitis, but if this is normally for work purposes. From a gaming standpoint, controllers seem like a great alternative to a standard mouse, but I'm just questioning the communication aspect in an MMO, and how it would impact the conversation of the server overall with multiple people using controllers instead of a keyboard.
To be honest I witnessed a game ..Dragon Age..which I played the heck out of for a year, change over to controllers...that was back in 2009. I didn't like the changes at the time..the options etc were limited due to everything being geared to controller options.
I ASSUME that since that time..Devs have gotten better with the tech etc. One thing to keep in mind, VR doesn't have a limitless budget, so perhaps at release the PC game will be for keyboard and mouse at the start, with other options being added over time, when more money comes in from people signing on and playing Pantheon.
We'll have to see what happens. It all costs money, and VR does rely on our pledges in order to get more things done, hire on more gaming Devs who have specific talents in each category. Keep it on your wish list, and we'll see what eventually happens. :)
Cana
Mentira said:Embarrassing question, but I have played all my previous MMOs (Everquest, Vanguard, WoW) with a keyboard and mouse and I would like to know how a controller would work for communication in a game like Pantheon? Do you use the controller to play in addition to a keyboard to communicate, or are you forced to use some sort of voice to text system (for those who dislike voicechat)? Being in the occupational therapy field, and working with upper extremity conditions regularly, I am intrigued and open to the idea of a controller but would this make the game world less conversational? Typically we recommend a vertical mouse for our patients with carpal tunnel / lateral epicondylitis, but if this is normally for work purposes. From a gaming standpoint, controllers seem like a great alternative to a standard mouse, but I'm just questioning the communication aspect in an MMO, and how it would impact the conversation of the server overall with multiple people using controllers instead of a keyboard.
There are numerous chat programs out there, some are voiced, some are text. That shouldn't be limiting with a controller I would imagine.
Cana
@Mentira, in EQOA as an example the controller was used for targetting, movement, ability selection/execution and a 'quick chat' menu for things saying things like 'Taunting [target]', along with keyboard support for broader chat.
I totally understand a controller is inferior to a KBM, but I don't see any real reason why an MMO can't support controllers, especially with modern day controller interface customizations. If VR doesn't support it then yeah I'll tweak a 3rd party interpreter, but we're not talking about playing a twitch reaction FPS where every millisecond counts. I don't mind (and don't think it'll drastically impact grouping) if it takes a controller user half a second longer to fire off a heal. All I need to do is flick around abilities and menus with a d-pad, use the sticks to move, the bumpers to cycle targets, and have a scheme set up to execute common actions with the buttons.
It's one of those things that certainly isn't a deal breaker against the bigger picture and priorities but would certainly be a nice to have on my list.
EppE said:While I will admit that the FF14 menu feels like it had a controller in mind, at no point have I have thought something didn't work on a KB/M because of it. I can't remember ever thinking that FF14 was a lazy console port to PC.
It is not about about something not working on a KB/Mouse because it was designed for a controller, it is about the limitations of a controller limiting the capabilties of a mouse and keyboard.
As I said, you can look at a game like Elder Scrolls: Morrowind and the look at the Elder Scrolls: Skrim to see how controller based influence has "limited" that of mouse/keyboard function.
Controllers are without a doubt, and emprically established "Inferior" in input function to that of mouse and keyboard.
This is the point.
Take two intstruments, one that can expand past a certain limit and another that is constrained to a certain limit.
Now, force all development to that which is constrained. From the perspective of someone who does not know the true limits of both, would they not consider the representation of both to the vary bottom limits to be perfectly balanced between such?
My point is, Controllers are LIMITED, and because they are they are the controlling factors of deverlopment, they FORCE their limits on mouse/keyboard.
So you can not achieve a logical understanding of of the differences between mouse/keyboard and controller if all you know is that of a controller. Your understanding will also be limited to what ther ablilities of a mouse/keyboard is.
A controller as we currently know them WILL NEVER be equal to the capability of a mouse /keyboard. This is why PC users are so angry at Console ports.