I support programming support for controllers if no other alternative is available. For those with carpals tunnel, trackball mice are a very reasonable option without losing any functionality. I would encourage your friend to look into this option before opting for a controller. The experience will be way better with KB+Mouse, especially if the game is action bar and hotkey heavy.
I would also assume that mouseless play using just a keyboard is possible as well. Tab targeting and a use key to open doors, etc should work just fine for PvE, where "keyboard turning" isnt a big deal for a majority of content. If this was an action MMORPG or PvP-centric, I would probably say otherwise.
I would like to chime in and say I am one of those players who can't stress enough how much I hate games (of this genre) that don't offer controller support.
Please please PLEASE just COPY FFXI'S controller interface, macro pallettes that can be accessed with L1 and R1, and you either scroll left/right/up/down to the macro you want or hit a number 0-9,
2 analog sticks for moving and camera, d-pad for menu navigation and macro scrolling, rest obvious.
Liav said:On EverQuest I had roughly 80 buttons to press and they were all mandatory to have available at all times. In Vanguard I had about 20-30. In EQ2 I had about 100.
Regardless, a gamepad doesn't necessitate manual targeting. Just having a well-designed tab target function bound to L1 (like the PS2 game EverQuest Online Adventures did) was more than sufficient.
Even so, WASD is kind of a misrepresentation of how camera and mouse movement works in most MMOs. Keyboard turners are obviously just not doing it right, but I personally consider KB+M to be superior for virtually any MMO I've played. While it's not "true analog" movement I don't really see any value in "true analog" within the content of most MMO mechanics. For instance, I don't think EQ has anything to gain gameplay wise from it. I can say the same for Vanguard and, most likely, Pantheon.
Edit: Even so, I'm still not against the concept of controller input for Pantheon.
that is one thing I can do without this go around and something that will turn me off of a game anymore faster then anything. More buttons to press does not equal more skill or anything like that. i for one do not want a crap ton of button to have to press at all. Now a lot of button that are there for sometimes is fine.
I think there should be controller support, i would really like to play with one if pos.
ffxi system could work quite well if theres is allot of skills but even ffxiv has done a good job with contorller with less skills
Fulton said:I play using a trackball, partially due to tendon issues that can flare up in my hand and wrist. The trackball allows me to rest my arm and wrist and keep them stationary. Takes a few days to adjust but now it is so natural and comfortable.
And it keeps other people from using my PC since they can't control the cursor. :P
I also keep an additional regualr mouse handy for when I do still get a flare up, usually from excessive typing for several days, then I can resort to left hand mouse opertion.
Aren't there such things as ergnonomic wrist rests, keyboards etc? Might help that condition.
Liav said:I think it's very doable but it would take a lot of time, effort, and money to not leave controller players extremely disadvantaged. I honestly would probably play Pantheon with a controller if it didn't ruin my performance. EQ would be impossible to play with a controller, for instance.
You can use joy2key or xpadder to use a controller for any PC game. I've played EQ with a controller on several occasions and it works fine. still have to use the keyboard to type / socialize, but as far as controlling my character and engaging in combat there are almost no issues at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeuM0mcmGXw&feature=youtu.be
Here's video of somebody playing on p99 using xpadder. Posting this as there are many people out there that shy away from PC games due to disabilities or ailments that have no idea these programs exist which is a shame. Additiinally, requires absolutely no time, effort, or money from the developers whatsoever.
Sniggz said:Here's video of somebody playing on p99 using xpadder. Posting this as there are many people out there that shy away from PC games due to disabilities or ailments that have no idea these programs exist which is a shame. Additiinally, requires absolutely no time, effort, or money from the developers whatsoever.
I didn't notice any comments in the video about disabilities and ailments. Did I miss a comment?
I don't want to sound cold-hearted, but I don't understand the mechanisms behind what makes this friendly to the disabled. I can understand someone with ulnar-nerve entrapment, but not someone with a severe thumb strain. Hand position affects so many different nerves, ligaments, tendons and muscles - even up to the shoulder and neck - that it makes my head hurt.
Anyone in actually medical science care to comment on this?
I don't think this is a simple issue.
From an I.T. POV (and not a medical one) I can tell you that they seem to fall into two 'broad' categories:
(i) Minor Specific (generally workplace 'fixable')
(ii) Major / Generic (generally 'non-standard' solutions)
From a PC perspective,
Category (i) is the one you meet in offices 99% of the time. This usually concerns Carpal-type issues, impaired vision and other known 'minor' impairments. ('Minor' here in the sense of the tech needed to overcome them. If you had some of these ailments, you would likely not consider them 'minor' if categorised by 'would I want it'). For these, there are a multitude of alternate shapes/sizes/types of mouse replacements (eg trackball, sideways-mouse, stylus etc) and some 'alternative' keyboard/input devices.
For the second category (ii) the issues are more acute for the KBD/input and not the mouse. The options available tend to be bespoke, and much less efficient - some being almost medieval (selection letter by letter) in method.
For an MMO where chat is critical, the KBD will be heavily relied upon. Given that mouse useage could be limited to only essentials (keybinds for targetting, opening doors, looting etc) such as panning view and movement direction, an alternative such as trackball or joystick could possibly be used (dependent on specific needs of player) or, failing that, moving to a left-handed mouse/trackerball for the few camera panning events needed.
Caveat: I am not a medical expert, merely worked in IT support for ever (turn it off/on ... or reboot 3 times?).
PS I am not keen on the idea of gamers sitting back in their couch, beer in hand, playing PTF with an XBox controller and a bunch of macros in the other hand. Socialising by typing in chat is going to be crotical. So unless you have a plug-in keyboard in you lap (buried under the cheetos) this is a non-starter!
@ Evoras
I dont know about other console/gamepad gamers. But its always been "serious business" to me. And I know you werent saying that all gamepad users are casually playing games in a half-assed drunken stupor. Though I have run across a few in online games and it very greatly pissed me off. Though there was an incident in an endgame event where a PC player caused a full wipe due to not paying attention. When asked about it he replied that he watches TV while he plays........ (got him booted from the guild). I guess my point would be that my time and other peoples time is important and I always appreciate it if people respect that and act accordingly (showing up to events on time, giving your undivided attention to important content, etc). Be they gamepad or kb/mouse warriors.
But this was my set up back in the day before I played FFXI on PC. I played FFXI on playstation 2 for a few years. Sitting on my couch. Gamepad in hands. PS2 keyboard in my lap (yes it had one lol). Laptop on the coffe table (look up maps, or ZAM, etc). And I didnt use voicechat back then. It actually worked really good for me. And I was extremely social. You just have to master the fine art of one-handing controls, while one-handing typing. Which isnt as easy as it sounds when you are typing out orders in an endgame event.
Of course I did move to PC eventually, but when I did I still played with gamepad and keyboard, I just added mouse to the equation. It really just depends on the game. Some games feel bettter with a gamepad to me and others feel better with a keyboard/mouse. But I am partial to gamepad, if its an option and if it makes sense (to me).
However, at this point developer dollars are probably better spent elsewhere (psst hey VR, hurry up and make Bard happen). But sometime after launch? Why not.
@ Amsai
hehe
My comment was mainly 'tongue in cheek' with regards the stereotypical 'game console player'. It was a light hearted (attempt) to show that playing PTF without a keyboard was likely a non-starter (even though there are many MMOs out there that actively catered for this).
PS
(i) Was your KBD covered in a layer of cheeto dust?
(ii) Yup, would rather VR just develop the game 1st since there are many 3rd party ways to improve (most) accessibility issues. My guess is that the Unity engine supports/compatible with many of these out of the box without specific dev work at this point.
(ii) Pssst VR, stop working on that Bard thingy and finish the Summoner with awesome pets pls first! :)
I have to start by saying, "I hate game controllers". So, I dont know what the current batch are capable of or not. But from my experience with gaming mice, these devices can be set up to cope with lots of keyboard combos. Is there no controller with a larger array of programmable buttons available? I know, on mice, they can be fiddley so possibly not appropriate for all users who can't use keyboards, though.
If these items are not available then I would suggest that people should be shouting more at manufacturers to put their house in order and provide gadgets for people who need different computer interface designs. If it can be done with mice, it can definately be done with controllers that are larger and are designed for use with two hands.
Yes, I understand that the game interfaces can be made friendly for controllers, but, in my experience, those games that come from a controller designed point of view are unfriendly for keyboards. It almost seems that games can only be perfect for one way or the other. Technically, however, you could set up a game system that can switch between the two (keyboards and controllers), but that adds a lot of complication, development, time and money to get right (not to mention bugs), so generally, its one or the other.
I would argue, that because of the complexity of true RPGs that the design has to be aimed at the keyboard compatible devices as the main controller and its about time that controllers offered more customisation (if they dont already).
This is a topic that I thought I would never comment on but, as we grow older our bodies cant do the things we used to be able to do. If controller support was enabled, it would be a feature that could potentially enable myself and others with hand and wrist problems to play, or even play longer. If the Devs are able to add support for game controllers, without taking away from planned features, and their implementation, I would support it.
Evoras said:@ Amsai
hehe
My comment was mainly 'tongue in cheek' with regards the stereotypical 'game console player'. It was a light hearted (attempt) to show that playing PTF without a keyboard was likely a non-starter (even though there are many MMOs out there that actively catered for this).
PS
(i) Was your KBD covered in a layer of cheeto dust?
(ii) Yup, would rather VR just develop the game 1st since there are many 3rd party ways to improve (most) accessibility issues. My guess is that the Unity engine supports/compatible with many of these out of the box without specific dev work at this point.
(ii) Pssst VR, stop working on that Bard thingy and finish the Summoner with awesome pets pls first! :)
(i) No, it was pizza sauce from those little pizza bites thingers.
(ii) From what I read it is, but that doesnt mean it wouldnt require devs to "turn it on" and set functions. As others have said we also dont want to have a UI that is terrible for PC players. If PC players had to use something as ancient as FFXIs menu driven UI, I think we would have another Ferguson.
(iii) Blasphemy!!!!
I play FFXIV and LOVE that it has controller support. So much that I've essentially stopped playing WoW unless my friends beg me to because it's so much more of a hassle to me. I just don't like K+M for gaming because it's highly inefficient. You either have keyboard turning - which is universally decried as you don't know WTF you're doing - or you have this near-requirement to use a mouse for everything from running to turning to camera control to targeting, and I've never found a mouse to be a good instrument for any of these things, much less all of them at once. Moreover, I generally play on a laptop. While I can do some (apparently, at least to other people) amazing things with a touchpad (RTSs say hi!), it can be annoying to play MMO battles with one, but using a mouse requires I set a book beside my computer if I'm playing on the couch or on my bed or whatever.
A controller has NONE of these issues. I even got to love it so much I worked out a way to play WoW with one using a third party controller program, but it's still clunky and relies on using autorun to maneuver, which can lead to some unfortunate - and hillarious - situations. Hell, I even made it where I could play EVE ONLINE with a controller...but accidentally decloaked myself in a poor situation and decided afterwords that even my inventiveness was limited (but since then, they've added first person mode flight, so I might have to retry it...)
The short version is that moving a character and camera with a controller is probably the single largest advantage it has. I hate playing melee characters in WoW, but I can do so easily in FFXIV. The precision of maneuvering my character and the camera is so much higher with a controller than can be achieved with a mouse. It's like comparing driving an automatic car (controller) to a manual deisel 18 wheeler (mouse+keyboard). Sure, the 18 wheeler drivers will tell you how awesome they are for being able to master it, but in the end it's just them using a ridiculously higher amount of effort needlessly to achieve barely the same level of goal.
Now, some people love M&K, just like some people love manual transmissions. But it really isn't inherently superior, it's simply a different way of achieving basically the same end. But controller support can bring in a lot of people and is a lot more user friendly and intuitive these days. And considering you always have the option to play K&M, it's not taking anything away from the game to do so.
Personally, I'm fine with games that just have support for the camera and then let me hotkey my hotbars like I like.
.
For those unfamiliar, btw, playing an MMO with a controller is a lot like how you play Kingdom Hearts with one. You set your basic attacks, jump, interact buttons as easy to use buttons, then set your actions like your magic was in Kingdom Hearts - hold down a trigger and push an accompannying ABXY/squarecircletriangleX button. Also the + gamepad for 4 more buttons. Between the 8 buttons and 4 triggers, you can easily map 32 keys if you want to. (Granted, FFXIV only uses two triggers but you can cycle through 8 preset combinations of 16 buttons each making you have a ton of possible keymaps if you so choose).
The biggest thing I like about it in FFXIV, though, is it makes healing awesome. Using up and down on the + gamepad, you can quickly cycle between party/raid members, which allows quick targeting and firing off of heals. I've never found a game with more intuitive healing than that, and it's far more efficient to me in clutch situations than using a mouse has ever been. It also makes doing the "raid dance" far easier as I can do this while easily maneuvering my character thanks to being able to move my guy with the joystick WHILE targeting my heal target with the + gamepad. This is something you cannot do with mouse.
.
To each their own, but I would settle for them just having character/camera control for gamepad and having the hotkey setup menu allow me to map the keys like I want. That would require much less dev effort than the FFXIV model, though if they want to go straight up and do that, I obviously wouldn't complain, either. :)
Amsai said:Evoras said:@ Amsai
(i) Was your KBD covered in a layer of cheeto dust?
(i) No, it was pizza sauce from those little pizza bites thingers.
When is it going to be acknowledged that it should be mandatory for companies to issue deskside support staff hazmat suits?
Feyshtey said:Amsai said:Evoras said:@ Amsai
(i) Was your KBD covered in a layer of cheeto dust?
(i) No, it was pizza sauce from those little pizza bites thingers.
When is it going to be acknowledged that it should be mandatory for companies to issue deskside support staff hazmat suits?
In this world filled with the evil plague that is snack-kind, we game warriors must stand firm in our struggle lest we fall to oblivion. The struggle is real!!!!!
New to these forums, but not new to mmos, started with the realm then eq and others since. For over the past year ive been using a controller as a raid tank in wow. It allows me to play without my hands going numb and hands and arms hurting. It is slower to comunicate, have a wireless keyboard to use, but anything requiring quick communication tends to be over voice anyways. I do not care for it with ground targetted abilities. It gives me 10 keybinds, being the control pad is 4, 4 regular buttons, 2 buttons on the top. Then use the left trigger gives anther 10, right trigger is another ten and left and right together all in total gives 40 keybinds. control sticks for movement and camera until clicking the right stick which brings up a cursor. For some it may not work, for others its a great thing. Being a pc game kb&m should be first and when/if time allows or a 3rd party does it a controller.